Indian Army: News & Discussion

[rohitvats]

From the same article linked by bmallick: The projected number in perspective plan for Nag is 7,000 missiles and 200 NAMICAs. That is a pretty healthy number for a niche ATGM like Nag. So, I guess, that takes care of requirement part from IA.

y
ep it's very reassuring to hear those numbers after all those years. any idea how IA will spread them around ? armd and mech brigades R&S sqn ? how many sqns would we need, do the numbers tally ?

True. That is the first time I'm hearing any numbers wrt Nag/NAMICA in public.

As for their deployment - IMO, they may end up with R&S Battalions of Mech.Infantry+dedicated ATGM platoons of MIR Battalions+(I) Company level ATGM assets for infantry division. But all this is guess work - let's wait and watch.

[vic]

If 7000 nag missiles are for Namica, then around same number will also be ordered n air to ground role. So I think that we are looking at:-

7000 nag for namica + say 3000 in lighter role
7000 Hellina for air to ground role
10,000 in Man portable version

So we are looking at around 25,000 such missiles in next 10 years to so.

[Gurneesh]

Does it do mine clearing while being reverse gear-> Cause i don't think it go over the mines and then start its anti-mining operations. Wont it be vulnerable to enemy soldiers on the other side of the mine field??

I don't think mine clearing is a job to be done under fire. The enemy must be cleared first and then a path made through the minefield.

It looks like mine clearing is done while in reverse (maybe to keep the driver as far away as possible from blast zone).

IMHO, such vehicles may not be used in combat (or as shiv sir mentioned only in a sanitized area). Tank mine ploughs would be ideal for that job.

[chackojoseph]

It looks like mine clearing is done while in reverse (maybe to keep the driver as far away as possible from blast zone).

IMHO, such vehicles may not be used in combat (or as shiv sir mentioned only in a sanitized area). Tank mine ploughs would be ideal for that job.

You are right. Its to protect the crew. Normally has dual transmission with slow speed mine ploughing. Some company hydronema or something like that has some units in Afghanistan via US Army?

added later...

My bad.. the info is already there in the previous pages.

[krishnan]

how does the driver being in the front or back matter...the distance is going to be the same...

[Singha]

looks like while tank ploughs will clear lanes while attacking, these hydrema things will do a thorough job of making the lanes wider for following support convoys or otherwise demining an area selected for a base but suspected to contain mines.

[chackojoseph]

Its a mis conception that mine clearing is done only in hostile environment. There is a lot of it, especially after the war.

[Gurneesh]

how does the driver being in the front or back matter...the distance is going to be the same...

Mines explode under the chains (called flail). So driver being on the opposite side will be farthest from the blast.


From Global security

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... ydrema.htm

The Hydrema 910 MCV is a mine clearing vehicle, designed for clearing of placed or buried personnel or antitank mines with up to 10 kg explosive weight.

The vehicle is capable of clearing a 3.5 meter wide track on firm ground such as roads and runways or on other types of ground. The clearing is done when the rotating flail detonates the mines by milling and hitting the ground. During the mine clearing process, the vehicle is driven by a hydrostatic system in the direction opposite to the normal driving direction. The clearing can be done using the joysticks or through the advanced computerized fully automatic pilot steering system.

The Hydrema has a metal protective shield and heavy chains that flail at high speeds to unearth, destroy or detonate mines on contact. The flail incorporates 72 chains and hammers (though more chains can be attached if desired) to detonate and destroy mines. I can be rotated in either directions.

A deflector plate made of armoured steel is mounted behind the flail. It provides an extremely high protection against blast and fragments, and preventing objects from being thrown on the vehicle. From the beginning, when clearing automatically, the driver chooses a few parameters on the monitor like e.g. ground conditions - and consequently the depth control of flail and deflector plate is done automatically.

.....

The Hydrema operates separated engines for driving and flail operations. It is equipped with a hydrostatic pivot-steered chassis with anti-roll system and non-directional, bullet-proof tyres. The Hydrema can drive directly into a C-130 Hercules aircraft.

A video of why driver cabin should be on the opposite side of the chassis

[Singha]

these days people drop mix of contact bombs and delayed action mines onto runways and aprons. hydrema could be useful in IAF bases to clear out such issues and permit the repair crew safe access. a couple could be enough per base.

[chackojoseph]

Indian Army organises a medical camp for Sunder Kot Bala residents

[shiv]

these days people drop mix of contact bombs and delayed action mines onto runways and aprons. hydrema could be useful in IAF bases to clear out such issues and permit the repair crew safe access. a couple could be enough per base.

I doubt if this machine is going to be used on a runway or apron because the detonating mine will only damage the surface. This is meant for mines hidden underground. Mines that are visible can be dealt with using some other method.

[Raja Bose]

Furthermore flails are not meant for mines which bury themselves into hard surfaces. There was a superb War Machine issue on the history of flails - got it from a kabadi-wala in bengaluru, kerala as a nanha.

[Singha]

I thought after the HE tears up the concrete of runway or apron, the mines kind of disperse into the rubble and earth and are not exposed. their job is to delay the engg repair crew by their mere presence and take out any unwary vehicle that just moves in.

in that context if they fall on undamaged concrete I agree some other means will be used. but in the rubble itself I would imagine a flail or tank plough would do the job nicely...a tank plough might not work on mines set with a timer delay (not a contact fuse) it will just it aside, but a flail will damage and shred any mine regardless of timer or contact mode.

[chetak]

Indian Army's Pir Panjal Brigade felicitates Hajj Pilgrims

Some times, I think that the Army tries too hard and in the end, it's all for nothing.

[shiv]

Singha if the mines are not on concrete or tarmac the men will use the concrete and tarmac and not venture onto bush/rubble where it is unnecessary to go until the mines can be cleared. Except for rough unprepared airstrips, airfields have pukka access roads to all areas by design.

The main issue may be explosives embedded in tarmac /earth that keep blowing up after a random delay.

[Raja Bose]

Singha saar, afaik the problem for flails is the chunks of rubble which cause the chains to wear out fast. I am guessing they might 1st use a plow to clear away the rubble to a safe spot.

[shiv]

Indian Army's Pir Panjal Brigade felicitates Hajj Pilgrims

Some times, I think that the Army tries too hard and in the end, it's all for nothing.

Well at least a few army lives may be saved by that. We never have a count of lives saved by something that does not occur. Today's paper in Bengaluru has the news report of a 30 year old burglary solved because the burglar got drunk and spoke to a police informer who was getting drunk with him. We will never know about informers and people who cooperate although we hear about it after they are killed by terrorists.

[chetak]

21 Corps logs on to 21st century solutions

Involving over 60,000 military personnel, 500 tanks, UAVs and IAF fighter jets, Sudarshan Shakti was the largest military exercise India has seen in the past 20 years. But the real military marvel was tucked under camouflaged nets 25 km away: the Joint Operations and Information Room (JOIR). Linked to a standalone server and an array of antennae, the JOIR, set up by the army’s 21 Corps, is the first practical application of network-centric warfare (NCW) at the corps level in India.

..............

Armies around the world are becoming leaner and meaner thanks to technology. In today’s information age, where “one ounce of silicon in a computer can have more power than a tonne of uranium,” according to US cyberwarfare expert Alan D Campen, NCW is the new way to fight.


The JOIR looks like a high-tech set from a Bond movie. It comprises four shipping containers that could be assembled anywhere in two hours flat. Multiple screens line the walls and officers shuttle between maps and workstations. Each station was responsible for a separate set of information. Some access real-time intelligence reports from UAVs, direct satellite feeds for the first time (a separate military satellite is in the pipeline), special forces, radars and enemy intercepts. Another station maintains a constant link with the IAF. Others look at supplies, artillery and enemy degradation. A data wall allows the commanders to view information as and when required, as well as stay in touch with different headquarters and centres simultaneously. The biggest breakthrough is a constantly updated map, with red and blue dots denoting enemy positions — movement and our responses.

[srai]

quote="rohitvats" From the same article linked by bmallick: The projected number in perspective plan for Nag is 7,000 missiles and 200 NAMICAs. That is a pretty healthy number for a niche ATGM like Nag. So, I guess, that takes care of requirement part from IA./quote
y
ep it's very reassuring to hear those numbers after all those years. any idea how IA will spread them around ? armd and mech brigades R&S sqn ? how many sqns would we need, do the numbers tally ?

True. That is the first time I'm hearing any numbers wrt Nag/NAMICA in public.

As for their deployment - IMO, they may end up with R&S Battalions of Mech.Infantry+dedicated ATGM platoons of MIR Battalions+(I) Company level ATGM assets for infantry division. But all this is guess work - let's wait and watch.

Here's my old calculations (from 10 Apr 2011):

Code: Select all

If given,
* 4 NAMICAs in Recce ATGM Platoon
* 13 NAMICAs in R&S Battalion divided into 3 x Recce Companies (plus 1 NAMICA at HQ Company)
* 443 NAGs per R&S Battalion w/ 13 NAMICAs
* 34 NAGs per NAMICA (including reserves)

* 1 R&S Battalion in a Division (w/ three NAMICA platoons)
* 1 R&S Company in an Independent Brigade (w/ one NAMICA platoon)


    IA FORMATIONS                                      NAMICA             NAG
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    7 x RAPIDs' R&S Battalions                          91                3,101
    3 x Armored Divisions' R&S Battalions               39                1,329
    7 x Independent Armored Brigade's R&S Company       28                  954
    2 x Independent Mechanized Brigade's R&S Company     8                  272  
                                       -----------------------------------------
                                       TOTALS           166               5,656

That leaves around 34 NAMICAs and 1,344 NAGs unaccounted for. If R&S company with one NAMICA platoon is assigned for some Infantry Divisions, the remaining 34 NAMICAs would cover around 8 x IDs.

[Singha]

the way things are going, the 155mm cannons in truck , towed and SP format are the highest national priority at par with Arihant, Agni5 and n-arsenal. we simply cannot do without them and will need them in bulk sooner or later.

I hope we dont get caught with pants down yet again in the hour of need.

[aniket]

I hope we dont get caught with pants down yet again in the hour of need.

When did this happen ?
Are you referring to Kargil ?

[chackojoseph]

Victor Force organised an interaction with released militants

[chetak]

Defence modernisation in year 2011: Critical deals materialised, others faced time overruns

New Delhi : India's quest to modernise its armed forces into a lean, mean fighting machine continued in 2011, with a few critical deals materialising and several others facing time overruns.
During the past 12 months, India finalised the purchase of some important military equipment, such as 10 Boeing C-17 Globemaster III heavylift cargo planes from the US and the upgrade of 51 Mirage-2000 combat planes initially by the French manufacturer and later in India.
These apart, India got the delivery of six Lockheed Martin C-130J Super Hercules medium-lift cargo planes from the US and entered into an agreement with Russia for licensed production of 42 more Sukhoi SU-30 MKI combat jets at the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) facility in India.
What's more, India is on the verge of finalising the winner of the "mother of all deals" for 126 combat planes for the Indian Air Force (IAF) that is expected to cost over $20 billion if an additional 63 aircraft are bought. A decision is expected in January 2012.
India also added teeth to its underwater warfare capabilities by obtaining a nuclear powered submarine on lease from Russia from this month.
The C-17s that India signed up for in June will cost $4.1 billion and would be delivered from 2013 to 2015. The importance of this plane for the IAF can be gauged from the fact that it can carry a payload of 75 tonnes and can land on airstrips of just over 1,000 metres.
A tactical and strategic airlifter, the C-17 can land combat-ready troops in remote locations or airdrop them directly where needed. The C-17's ability to back up allows it to operate from narrow taxiways and congested ramps.
The Mirage-2000 upgrade deal, entered into with French firms Thales and Dassault in July, is worth $2.4 billion, and will help in enhancing the technical-operational capabilities of the 51 planes the IAF has in its fleet.
The upgraded Mirages, inducted in the 1980s, will also get new weapon systems including the French MBDA's MICA aerial combat and interception missiles. It will improve not only the avionics of the combat planes but also their fighting capabilities and increase their life by another 20 years at least.
The C-130J planes will help India to carry out special forces operations to take on enemy targets inside their territory with precision and in quick time.
The four-engined turboprop has a minimum crew of three comprising two pilots and a loadmaster and can carry 64 fully-geared troops or 20 tonnes of cargo. It can touch speeds of 700 kmph and can take off from landing strips of about 1,000 metres.
During Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's visit to Moscow earlier in December, India signed a fresh deal with Russia for producing 42 more Sukhois at HAL that will take the IAF's fleet strength of the planes, now licensed manufactured in India, to 272. At present, India is operated over 120 of the Sukhois.
The potent air dominance fighter will provide a lethal edge to the IAF, as it has the capability to carry nuke-tipped missiles too.
In April, India also down-selected European consortium EADS Cassidian and French Dassault as the two remaining contenders in the 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) tender and sent the other four vendors packing.
With that and the opening of the EADS and Dassault commercial bids in November, the tender has entered the final stage and the winner of the deal is expected to be announced in January 2012. The 126 planes will be the replacement for the Soviet-origin MiG-21s that India had begun inducting in the 1960s, as these ageing planes are to be phased out of the IAF by 2015.
The MMRCA deal was expected by the end of this year, but it will take another month or so before coming through, all because of an investigation at the beginning of the year into a file relating to the commercial bids of the vendors going missing and later found at a Delhi roadside.
Among the defence deals that were expected but did not fructify was that for the M777 ultra-light howitzers from the BAE Systems stable, 145 of which India wanted to buy from the US under the foreign military sales route. But after a portion of the guns' field trials were leaked, the order faced a time overrun in view of an investigation ordered by the defence ministry into the leak.
Some of the other deals, expected this year but which did not materialise included the finalisation of the tender for 22 attack helicopters which was reportedly won by Boeing's Apache Longbow; the completion of the tendering process for 15 heavy-lift helicopters that is also in its final stages, and the 197 light utility helicopters for the army and the air force, the fate of which is not known yet and could take a long while for a decision.
India also failed to sign a deal for IAF's basic trainer requirement of 75 aircraft. The Swiss Pilatus PC-7 was finalised as the winner of the tender, but a final deal is yet to be sealed, which may come about only in early 2012.
Among the capacity-builders the Indian armed forces obtained this year were the indigenous stealth frigate of the Shivalik class, INS Satpura, that was inducted in August; commissioning of the fleet tanker, INS Deepak, in January that can carry supplies to Indian warships sailing far away from the mainland so they are in operation mode for months; and induction of over 100 upgraded AN-32 medium-lift Soviet-era transport planes.
India also placed an order with a Sri Lankan shipyard in October for 80 fast interceptor craft for its newly-raised Sagar Prahari Bal that is tasked to protect coastal strategic assets of the country.
It also signed a contract with a South Korean shipyard for building eight minesweepers that protect the harbour fronts from being mined by enemy submarines.
This year also saw the Defence Research and Development Organisation testing the 3,500-km range Agni-IV in November, apart from a score of missiles such as 2,000-km range Agni-II and Shourya short-range ballistic missiles that provide India a significant second strike nuclear weapons capability.
All these missile tests were in preparation for putting India in the over 5,000-km range inter-continental ballistic missile league and DRDO plans and prepares to test the Agni-V, which has this capability, in early 2012.
Here's the lowdown on what India accomplished in its defence modernisation and procurement plans in 2011 and what it could not complete.
What Was Done:
* Deal for 10 Boeing C-17s signed with the US for $4.1 billion.
* Deal for upgrading 51 Mirage-2000 jets signed for $2.4 billion with French manufacturer Dassault.
* Six Lockheed Martin C-130J Super Hercules for special forces operations delivered.
* INS Deepak fleet tanker inducted.
* Order placed with Korean shipyard for eight minesweepers.
* Deal for 80 fast interceptor craft signed with Sri Lanka.
What Wasn't Done
* Deal for 126 combat planes yet to be signed.
* Deal for 145 M777 ultra-light howitzers still to be signed.
* Deal for 22 attack helicopters still to be clinched.
* Winner of order for 15 heavy-lift helicopters yet to be announced
* Winner of order for 197 light-utility helicopters still be decided.

[chackojoseph]

Indian Army Northern Command HQ organises seminar for vendors

[Shrinivasan]

From the same article linked by bmallick: The projected number in perspective plan for Nag is 7,000 missiles and 200 NAMICAs. That is a pretty healthy number for a niche ATGM like Nag. So, I guess, that takes care of requirement part from IA.

Rohit, do you have any other source corroborating this number? Taramak attributes this to the IA's Perspective Plan but I haven't seen this number anywhere else? the number of NAMICA's look high, I think there could be follow-on orders for an improved NAMICA. Why didn't DRDO experiment with a NAMICA on an Arjun Chassis? it can carry Eight Nags in ready to fire mode and have around 20 for reloads. BTB, how does the NAMICA do reloads? do they have to exit the carrier? is there a dedicated reload vehicle like Akash?

[chackojoseph]

Indian Army Northern Command chief visits toops at Line of control

[chackojoseph]

Received tremendous support from every segment of Kashmiri Society : Chinar Corps

[chackojoseph]

The news got buried in the Lokpal din. Our new year gift to Ex-Service men.

Rajya Sabha Committee recommends ’One Rank One Pension’ for Armed Forces Veterans

[nelson]

^ that means nothing, well, almost. the petitions committee has opined in favour of 'One Rank One Pay' and has recommended it to be considered by the GoI for implementation. previously, the standing committee of parliament on defence has also supported the implementation of the OROP in its reports. major political parties have included the OROP in their election manifesto in 2004 and 2009.
but this 'new year gift' is yet to see the light of day.
Unfortunately this govt(as it has happened n times previously) shall not have time or inclination to even read the report.

may be in new year 2020. happy new year 2012

[suryag]

UPA’s next battle… against its army chief. General VK Singh to petition Supreme Court

Wish the chief wins this case

[eklavya]

Good luck Chief. Good to see you fighting to uphold truth and honour.

[tejas]

I am left hanging my head in anger and disbelief over this truly pathetic situation. I think it is a good representation of the arrogance of the Indian politician. I will tell you when your birthday is and you will therefore agree!! I hope the Supreme Court supports the Army chief and I will truly celebrate when this poor excuse of a govt. falls.

[ASPuar]

The news got buried in the Lokpal din. Our new year gift to Ex-Service men.

Rajya Sabha Committee recommends ’One Rank One Pension’ for Armed Forces Veterans

Few points come to mind:

1. Rectified pension status is, in a sense, return of pay which was appropriated during service years. It is not a gift, but legitimate dues of ex servicemen. In no way, are they receiving any largesse via OROP.

2. The committee's report and role is merely advisory in nature, and not binding, which means nothing comes of its report without the government accepting the report first. If its utterances on the subject are any indication, it has no intention of accepting the report, which means that nothing comes of it all. So the so called gift is merely a piece of paper, without any result.

3. This is all the more galling, as the Civil side has already achieved OROP (for officers at least), through Non Functional Financial Upgradation scheme in operation. Per the terms and conditions of the NFFU scheme, every civil officer who is gazetted, is, through this scheme, guaranteed promotion up to Additional Secretary level (for pay and pension purposes). This level and above automatically receives upgraded pensions (also known as the so called One Rank One Pension). So, not only are the civil side allowed to work for more years, but they automatically receive OROP also, while retired majors and colonels cry for their due. Wah, amazing India!

[Philip]

The controversy over the Army Chief's age ,is yet another example of Indian babudom trying to cut to size our military chiefs.From British days,the Army Commander,always had direct access to the Viceroy.In post-Independent India,the scare of a military coup made our politicos remove this requirement and make all meetings routed through the def.Sec.They further downgraded the protocol of the ranks of armed forces chiefs and officers,further demeaning them.The Q one has to ask is why the current chief is being hounded by babudom this way? The PM and DM could easily arrive at an honourable solution that does not discredit the honour of the serving chief,but are there vested interests at work? There are huge contracts for artillery and armour in the offing,aircraft,UAVs and helos for the Army Air Corps and the massive contract,thouands of crores, for equipping the Indian jawan with 21st century digital-enhanced clothing and new assault rifles and other weaponry.The current chief's standing on many of these most lucrative contracts could be one reason why the GOI/UPA is so desperate to get rid of him.

[chackojoseph]

Chinar Corps organises sports tours for Kashmiri cricket teams under 'Op Sadhbhavana'

[chaanakya]

Few points come to mind:

1. Rectified pension status is, in a sense, return of pay which was appropriated during service years. It is not a gift, but legitimate dues of ex servicemen. In no way, are they receiving any largesse via OROP.

Yes, It is not a gift but legitimate right. To term it a gift is an insult to Service men.

2. The committee's report and role is merely advisory in nature, and not binding, which means nothing comes of its report without the government accepting the report first. If its utterances on the subject are any indication, it has no intention of accepting the report, which means that nothing comes of it all. So the so called gift is merely a piece of paper, without any result.
Yes, again Govt is yet to accept it. Govt should accept it forthwith.

3. This is all the more galling, as the Civil side has already achieved OROP (for officers at least), through Non Functional Financial Upgradation scheme in operation. Per the terms and conditions of the NFFU scheme, every civil officer who is gazetted, is, through this scheme, guaranteed promotion up to Additional Secretary level (for pay and pension purposes). This level and above automatically receives upgraded pensions (also known as the so called One Rank One Pension). So, not only are the civil side allowed to work for more years, but they automatically receive OROP also, while retired majors and colonels cry for their due. Wah, amazing India!

I dont think OROP concept is followed in Civil service. Since they retire at the age of 60 years ( unless in few select posts and unlike servicemen who might retire earlier than 60 years of age) length of service is not fixed ( depending on DOB) one may get different pay during last year of service which determines the pension after full qualifying pension. OROP was required as Servicemen would not be completing full qualifying service before retirement even though serving in the same rank. hence pension gets reduced pro-rata. OROP removes this anomaly.

[chaanakya]

UPA’s next battle… against its army chief. General VK Singh to petition Supreme Court

Wish the chief wins this case

Decision against the Chief is unfortunate. Hope SC decides quickly and in his fav.

[chetak]

Few points come to mind:

1. Rectified pension status is, in a sense, return of pay which was appropriated during service years. It is not a gift, but legitimate dues of ex servicemen. In no way, are they receiving any largesse via OROP.

Yes, It is not a gift but legitimate right. To term it a gift is an insult to Service men.

2. The committee's report and role is merely advisory in nature, and not binding, which means nothing comes of its report without the government accepting the report first. If its utterances on the subject are any indication, it has no intention of accepting the report, which means that nothing comes of it all. So the so called gift is merely a piece of paper, without any result.
Yes, again Govt is yet to accept it. Govt should accept it forthwith.

3. This is all the more galling, as the Civil side has already achieved OROP (for officers at least), through Non Functional Financial Upgradation scheme in operation. Per the terms and conditions of the NFFU scheme, every civil officer who is gazetted, is, through this scheme, guaranteed promotion up to Additional Secretary level (for pay and pension purposes). This level and above automatically receives upgraded pensions (also known as the so called One Rank One Pension). So, not only are the civil side allowed to work for more years, but they automatically receive OROP also, while retired majors and colonels cry for their due. Wah, amazing India!

I dont think OROP concept is followed in Civil service. Since they retire at the age of 60 years ( unless in few select posts and unlike servicemen who might retire earlier than 60 years of age) length of service is not fixed ( depending on DOB) one may get different pay during last year of service which determines the pension after full qualifying pension. OROP was required as Servicemen would not be completing full qualifying service before retirement even though serving in the same rank. hence pension gets reduced pro-rata. OROP removes this anomaly.

The babus who are denying this already have OROP for themselves for many many years now. Those shameless buggers first look after themselves onlee.

[Manish_Sharma]

Maroof Raza is presenting General Shri V.K. Singh's side on TIMESNOW very beautifully, please watch it!

[chackojoseph]

Chinar Corps organises sports tours for Kashmiri cricket teams under 'Op Sadhbhavana'

This has got into a controversy now. Geelani says that Army changes culture of these boys when they go out. It was rubbished by the Chinar Corps CO.