Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 2011

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 29 Dec 2011 17:53

Anujan wrote:^^^^^^
Funny tid bit. Next day groper did downhill ski and said that when he said state within a state he was referring to the defense secretary and not to the army at all

Anujan ji, I am not so sure that Gilani employed PA's SOP there

. He blamed none other than Lt. Gen. (Retd.) Naeem Khan Lodhi who is a Kayani appointee. Secretaries of MoD in Pakistan are (usually) retired Generals and that is how the PA limits the control of the civilian government over them. So, in effect, Gilani was criticizing the PA, IMHO.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Dec 2011 18:02

Sridhargaru - I have been meaning to ask you this question. When was the last time a civilian "leader" (LOL!) in Papistan actually openly criticized the army and either appointed someone new or got away with it? I think it has occurred once or twice before aside from Nawz Sharif's failed attempt - but just curious about details.

Wasn't the appointement of Zia done by Bhutto. But I think there was someone else too.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 29 Dec 2011 18:09

Singha wrote:even if India did not support the northern afghans and herat afghans, wouldnt Russia, some of CAR states and Iran provide them moral and diplomatic support if for nothing else than to keep the pakiban and pashtun hordes off their borders?

Of course. The extraordinarily hyped-up Indian support to NA is a ruse by TSPA to justify its manufactured paranoia about India and keep us out of Afghanistan.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 29 Dec 2011 18:21

shiv wrote:Sridhargaru - I have been meaning to ask you this question. When was the last time a civilian "leader" (LOL!) in Papistan actually openly criticized the army and either appointed someone new or got away with it? I think it has occurred once or twice before aside from Nawz Sharif's failed attempt - but just curious about details.

Wasn't the appointement of Zia done by Bhutto. But I think there was someone else too.

Shiv, I can't think of anybody other than, as you mentioned, ZAB replacing his military chiefs. Of course, Nawaz did so and paid the penalty the second time. The first time, he sent Gen. Jehangir Karamat packing successfully.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Dec 2011 18:35

SSridhar wrote:
shiv wrote:Sridhargaru - I have been meaning to ask you this question. When was the last time a civilian "leader" (LOL!) in Papistan actually openly criticized the army and either appointed someone new or got away with it? I think it has occurred once or twice before aside from Nawz Sharif's failed attempt - but just curious about details.

Wasn't the appointement of Zia done by Bhutto. But I think there was someone else too.
Shiv, I can't think of anybody other than, as you mentioned, ZAB replacing his military chiefs. Of course, Nawaz did so and paid the penalty the second time. The first time, he sent Gen. Jehangir Karamat packing successfully.

Ok so it is safe to assume that Groper has made history of sorts by saying things that would have made others a military cutlet.

My suspicion is that the Pakistan military is in deep trouble. Too many signals coming to suggest that - not least from Bharat Karnad saying "Make them less afraid"

They military was I think 60% Pakjabi and 30% Pakhtun. There have been desertions and acts of indiscipline. A military trained to fight India and focus only on India has been thrown against the holiest of momeens and Pakistan's ability to conjure up a war with India to perk up morale and pull back troops from the Afghan border has been degraded by Indian "cowardice" especially after 26/11.

Here is what Hamid Gul was saying after 26/11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw3VqBt7aKA

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 29 Dec 2011 18:56

shiv wrote:Ok so it is safe to assume that Groper has made history of sorts by saying things that would have made others a military cutlet.

Both Gilani & Zardari. They first decided to bring the ISI under civilian control but had to do downhill skiing as the US was on TSPA's side at that time. Gilani cleverly tried to announce this decision just before he boarded the flight to the US on his first official visit. But, he had to change the decision before he landed at London. Then, Zardari unilaterally decided to announce a 'No First Use' policy. He also said that India was not an enemy and the enemy was internal to Pakistan. One can imagine how much these would have angered the PA Chief and his commanders. Though the terms of Kayani & Pasha were extended, they were on tenterhooks for some time. In all these decisions, the Zardari/Gilani duo were handicapped by the US being on TSPA's side. Then, the case of the MFN to India. Kayani warned PPP government not to go ahead with it even as our Foreign Secreatry was on the Pakistani soil. Of course, MFN may never happen. That's another story. However, I see some change now.

Zardari has refused to respond to the Supreme Court on the memogate issue. Gilani has been quite blunt. He asked who gave visa to OBL responding to PA's accusation of indiscriminate visa approval by the Pakistani embassy in the US to CIA agents. He chided the Defence Secreatry for his affidavit to the SC. He said if anybody thought of a 'State Within the State', that was incorrect and everybody worked under the civilian government. He even (IMVHO) admitted to PA's involvement in 26/11 when he said that the GoP 'protected' the PA after the incident. He forced Kayani to talk to his bedridden Supreme Commander by cleverly thrusting the phone into his hands during their meeting.

In any other country, such matters might have been viewed differently. For example, the MoD secretary would be a civilian, for example. The COAS might not be able to file affidavits in courts independent of the MoD. He would most certainly not be able to demand a court enquiry into his own Supreme Commander and still enjoy the office. The PM would not be going to such extraordinary lengths to appear to chide the Army Chief. Etc. . .etc. . .But, we are dealing with Pakistan where everything needs to be scrutinized minutely. A country where a Brigade is just set apart for carrying out coups !

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 29 Dec 2011 19:06

Wow. I can only hope the civvies push PA to the brink and precipitate a coup attempt. Just like India gains in terms of clarity, erspective and international support from having the Taliban/pakiban overtly take over TSP, India gains too from having GHQ overtly call the shots in Isloo and not just in Pindi.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 29 Dec 2011 19:09

The lighter side of Porkis

GUJAR KHAN: Petroleum Minister Dr Asim Hussain has announced a nationwide gas emergency and advised that CNG stations would have to be shut from January 2012.

The petroleum minister said the pressure was so low that compressors could shutdown anytime and in that case there would be no gas for two weeks.

Hussain said that the Chairman of the All Pakistan CNG Association was indulging in politics and should stop robbing the nation.

“Stations are stealing gas” Hussain added.

Take to baked beans Porkis!

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 29 Dec 2011 19:49

Necromancy on the rise in Pakistan. Watch the interview where both the police and reporter discuss that these sexual offenses on dead bodies are common in Pakistan.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 29 Dec 2011 20:10

abhishek_sharma wrote:Members of this forum are expected to provide evidence when they write something negative about this govt. This evidentiary burden is suspended when chanakian explanations are provided. This asymmetry is a sign of very high levels of honesty.

Exactly, and you have to credit DocJi for his incredible ability to spin (I wish India had someone with his abilities at the MCG

). Look at the way the evidence he comes up with when someone says MMS is not quite that honest in the manner in which he approaches TSP, and whether he really considers TSP terror as the seminal issue that needs to be rooted out first and foremost. He spins some mumbo jumbo: jee if MMS is a traitor, then those around him are traitors for not calling him, the opposition are traitors because they did not take MMS etc etc. Then, along with GuptaJi, they will point to some appeasement from USA towards their TFTA munnas, and say jee, here is hoW mighty USA caved in to TSP, MMSJi is nowhere near that level of appeasement bla bla. Piskology at its best instread of addressing the issues head on. Now when someone like me points out hard, indisputable facts:

1) MMS's love-making with the vile terrorist Mush almost cementing the "joint sovereignty" sell out over Kashmir,
2) his surrender to TSP on 26/11, i.e., resuming composite dialogue including talks in Kashmir even as Hafeez Saeed openly commands pigLeTs; tantamount to accepting TSP's demands for talks with no "pre-conditions"
3) His harping on so called "Hindu terrorism" diluting India's stand against real TSP-sponsored terror

I am asked to provide "evidence" that MMS has not surrendered or not caved in. Furthermore, some ask what exactly MMS has sold out on. I mean come on, if you accept the enemy's prescription for talks, isn't it the beginning of a sell out? I mean if you accept that terror and solution to the "core issue" is linked, then how can you not make concessions on the "core issue" once you have accepted the equivalence? A good and honest media should at least ask MMS some tough questions on his policy. Not spinning some balderdaash that there is a Chanakyan strategy behind this, and then mock someone who point uut the above facts as being paranoid, or out of touch with reality, or daring to question MMS's integrity etc.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 29 Dec 2011 20:12

shiv wrote: Ok so it is safe to assume that Groper has made history of sorts by saying things that would have made others a military cutlet.

My suspicion is that the Pakistan military is in deep trouble. Too many signals coming to suggest that - not least from Bharat Karnad saying "Make them less afraid"

They military was I think 60% Pakjabi and 30% Pakhtun. There have been desertions and acts of indiscipline.

shiv
I think we are reading everything right but it is the GHQ which is in deep trouble. Groper is not a crazy man. He must be having the backing of certain Generals who at this time remain cloaked. Our suspicions of deep splits in PA ranks could well be correct. The split must be vertical down to the subedar level from the top.
Groper must be aware of this and hence He is hedging his bets on PA.
Imagine a glass slab and the Osama capture was the first shot of a stone on the glass slab.Instead of making a hole in the slab it made an impact on it but the entire glass slab developed cracks which are slowly but surely increasing everyday and will eventually break the entire thing.
As ramana garu has mentioned previously,Pakistan is really eerily similar to FSU in the final stages. Groper is Gorby?? How did that happen!
Altair

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 29 Dec 2011 20:20

shiv wrote: Here is what Hamid Gul was saying after 26/11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw3VqBt7aKA

These jehadi terrorist sewer animals have a strong jealousy against India's IT sector because all they are capable of is fanatic barbaric terrorism...remember yet another jehadi pig wrote in Paki media that 'we should not allow India to capitalise on our IT talent until Kashmir is solved' ...

I hope in private MMS/Antony has told Kayani that any hint of moving an inch closer to the nuke would mean vaporising all these pigs in one big puff..

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 29 Dec 2011 20:21

CRamS wrote: I am asked to provide "evidence" that MMS has not surrendered or not caved in.

So what exactly do you want? Declare MMS as a traitor and have him put to death?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Dec 2011 20:26

CRamS wrote:
Exactly, and you have to credit DocJi for his incredible ability to spin

<snip>

I am asked to provide "evidence" that MMS has not surrendered or not caved in.

er you ignorant American you are adding sugar to your masala dosa. What else can one expect from an American who thinks "summer" is in August when the monsoon is in full swing?

I have never asked you to provide any evidence that MMS has not surrendered. I have always accepted that as the truth, but stated that his surrender is as abject as American slavery to Pakistani interests. We both suffer from the surrender of our respective governments. But I have to suffer from the bahavior of your government as well as mine. That is all.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 29 Dec 2011 20:37

Altair wrote:
CRamS wrote: I am asked to provide "evidence" that MMS has not surrendered or not caved in.
So what exactly do you want? Declare MMS as a traitor and have him put to death?

Another exaggeration. I wanted him booted out of power, but first honestly exposed and demand answers to the tough questions I posed. Take him to task, verbally that is, for all his pro-TSP nonsense about India's and TSP'd destinies are linked, he has always believed that he cannot justify peace process if terror attacks continue. Is that not perverted thinking? I mean he is opposed to terror attacks because he cannot justify the peace process, not because its an evil abomination and an assault on India's soul and he will have none of that. Somebody has to ask him those questions and not put him on this pedestal that he some great economist descended from heaven.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 29 Dec 2011 21:01

CRamS wrote: Another exaggeration. I wanted him booted out of power, but first honestly exposed and demand answers to the tough questions I posed. Take him to task, verbally that is, for all his pro-TSP nonsense about India's and TSP'd destinies are linked, he has always believed that he cannot justify peace process if terror attacks continue. Is that not perverted thinking? I mean he is opposed to terror attacks because he cannot justify the peace process, not because its an evil abomination and an assault on India's soul and he will have none of that. Somebody has to ask him those questions and not put him on this pedestal that he some great economist descended from heaven.

So you want to humiliate him publicly. He might as well prefer a bullet in his head rather than go through the humiliation. But in India a Prime Minister is well insulated from even corruption allegations. That is how constitution is defined in India. You would need an amendment to that affect.
How do you expect this process to go forward in India where even a highly corrupt Telecom Raja and Kanimozhi are letoff.
You are wasting everyone's time by going through this line of thinking.
Your efforts would be justified if you put your efforts in supporting people who want to break Pakistan. Support Sindhis and Balochis. You need not donate any money for it. Give their voice a platform and support. Make some friendships. Try to understand the ground situation. It will give a perspective. What you are doing here is helping no one.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 29 Dec 2011 22:07

CRamS wrote:

Another exaggeration. I wanted him booted out of power, but first honestly exposed and demand answers to the tough questions I posed. Take him to task, verbally that is, for all his pro-TSP nonsense about India's and TSP'd destinies are linked, he has always believed that he cannot justify peace process if terror attacks continue. Is that not perverted thinking? I mean he is opposed to terror attacks because he cannot justify the peace process, not because its an evil abomination and an assault on India's soul and he will have none of that. Somebody has to ask him those questions and not put him on this pedestal that he some great economist descended from heaven.

CRS: Why don't you start closer to home? Use the same line of thought for ex-President Short Hairs who attacked the wrong country? And the line of Presidents who thought Papistan was their best friend?

America has given you a well ordered society, to the building of which you never contributed. Give something back to them in gratitude?

Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, hain ji? MMS or any Indian leader should undo the decades of double speak of Americ, which conveniently calls us a strategic and the worlds largest democracy!

Am and Indian first and an Indian last, whereas you seem to don two hats and get konfused as to which hat you are sporting. Lot of guys from my college went off to the USA and waxed eloquent about the society. And I simply asked them the very same question I am asking you. What did you contribute to it? More importantly why did you not stay back and contribute to Indian society?

They are still good friends but that point was telling!

Nandu · Post by **Nandu** » 29 Dec 2011 22:12

Still reading the Goldberg & Ambinder "Ally from Hell" article in The Atlantic.

One thing that struck me is that it implies an alternative explanation of why Kayani is so reluctant to stage a direct coup. The standard explanation is that he doesn't want the army to be blamed for the mess that Pakistan is in. A better explanation might be that he expects a coup to trigger US action against the crown jewels. The article goes into some details about US plans for Paki nuclear assets in the event of a Jihadist coup, but also maks clear the US now considers the Paki army and the Jihadis to be two peas in a pod. 2+2=4.

According to American sources, China has, in secret talks with the U.S., reached an understanding that, should America decide to send forces into Pakistan to secure its nuclear weapons, China would raise no objections. (An Obama-administration spokesperson had no comment.)

amit · Post by **amit** » 29 Dec 2011 22:23

Public humiliation of political leaders and public personalities is a very American concept. Even during their darkest hours Indira and Rajiv Gandhi were never subject to public humiliation or ridicule on TV and other media. Whatever little that happened was in the context of political and electoral expediency. Their experience was nothing compared to folks like Nixon, for example.

Now I'm not trying to pass judgment on whether that is good or bad but that's the way Indian citizens do it. Perhaps folks like CRS don't get it. Indians humiliate political leaders by voting with their feet.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 29 Dec 2011 23:40

@A_Gupta, I replied to you in off-topic thread.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1218535

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 29 Dec 2011 23:45

Thanks KLNMurthy! But please forgive me if I don't respond on BRF.

The right place to heap opprobrium on the Indian Prime Minister is the TSP thread, just like the right place to solve Dalit grievances is the United Nations. With friends like this, who needs enemies?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 30 Dec 2011 00:07

I guess when we discuss TSP we reveal more of our inner treasures than we do so for TSP. I think we are blaming poor MMS too much where the Paki is concerned. One of the problems I feel with the congrez vis-a-vis Islamist politics on the subcontinent - is that it acts up heavily, raising the temperature and expectations of the non-Muslim population against some unreasonable or potentially disastrous Islamist demands. But then somewhere deep inside, another switch flips just at the right moment - so that no preparation is taken to meet up to the consequence of the bluster in the form of concrete reaction from the Islamist side.

Once the Islamist action is unleashed, congrez swings overnight to the opposite direction, blames the "Hindu-fascists" for the Islamic reaction, and turns on its super-duper islamophile mode. No need to speculate as to the reasons - perhaps a deep seated personal affiliation in the controlling centres or dynasties towards Islamism, or a fondness for public dramatics but shaking in fear of Islamist ruthlessness in private - whatever.

This was exactly how Pakistan was actually allowed to form. Since then, Pakistan has been good for the congrez. Pakistan can be used in two ways in the domestic politics of India. On the one hand Pakistan can be used to beat the non-Muslim to stay in line - and not oppose the congrez by keeping the fear of a distinct Pakistan that nurtures and preserves Islamism to be unleashed on India in the future. The fear of Indian domestic "muslim" siding with Paki muslims can be invented to preserve a distinct "Muslim" component under rashtryia protection and sharpening of identity. That in turn helps to preserve an iconic fear of Islamism and use that fear to claim that anything done against the wishes of the congrez may jeopardize this "delicate" balance!

On the other hand, Pakistan can be used to raise the spectre of "Hindu" reaction on Indian muslims to ensure that Indian muslims keep their Islamic "separate"ness razor sharp - and in a permanent state of supposed vulenrability with congrez as the sole saviour.

In the middle of these two sharply divided identities [with the congrez gov helping continuously to sharpen and protect the distinction of Islamic identity as per the demands of the mullahcracy] - complete and selective diversity can be claimed to characterize India so that no common set of values can form an independent framework for the basis of the nation. Therefore you need a single individual emperor or empress to arbitrate between all these so-distinct groups - based on his or her own sweet inner values. There you go : a complete framework for congrez dynastic rule in perpetuity.

Congrez needs Pakistan to exist independently. Pakistan was formed in a tussle for personal power between two individuals egged on by the Brits. One of them had perhaps been advised or come to the conclusion that Punjab and Bengal would be a thorn in the side of his personal power and he did not want to deal with so many radicals. Moreover whatever the congrez pretends - the core of congrez seems not to be comfortable with a large body of muslims in territories they want to control. The memory of rebellious Punjab and Bengal sticks too thick on the congrez memory [MB and the Akalis not helping either by keeping reminding them!] - so it will fight tooth and nail against any reabsoprtion of Muslims from Pak into an expanded India.

While, Pak in its independent existence - even things like 26/11 that keep on the memory of the potential of Islamism - helps the congrez gameplan.

MMS is just a spokesperson. No use beating the dwarapal or the doota!

Jaspreet · Post by **Jaspreet** » 30 Dec 2011 00:53

If people are so worked up about MMS, a Pak-bashing thread is hardly the forum for doing something about it. Over and over again, Paki-bashing is deftly turned into India-bashing.

BR is a forum that is not as high in traffic ranking as, say facebook. If you want to get rid of MMS, start a facebook page or start an agitation in India.

I give you the example of the Ugly Indian group that I came to know about on facebook. These guys aren't happy with the mountains of trash on streets of Bangalore. They have started cleaning up such spots themselves rather than wait for the city to do it for them. As a result, one such spot has remained free of trash, urination and bovine visits for a while now. And people use the sidewalk rather than walking on the road.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 30 Dec 2011 01:03

amit wrote:The interesting discussion of how MMS is preventing India from either "teaching Pakistan a lesson" or, even better, "solving" the Pakistan problem is just looking at one side of the problem. I know Shiv, A_Gupta and other have alluded to this but let me try to put it all together.

<snip>.......

This brings us to two sets of issues IMO.

Issue A:

* Is our Army, Air Force and Navy and other sundry assets like intelligence, equipped - both in terms of manpower and hardware - to strike a strong blow to Pakistan while still keeping things under (India's) control?

<snip>.....

Issue B:

* How does the PM ensure that things don't get out of control and spiral into a nuclear exchange?

<snip>.....

We can call MMS or anyone else a traitor only when we are sure that he has the tools and options needed but chose not to use them. On the other hand, if we cannot to convincingly show that all the necessary elements are in place to solve/tackle the Paki problem militarily then calling MMS a traitor or weak is nothing but political sloganeering.

JMT.

You are assuming that people here hate MMS and his government because they haven't waged war on Pakistan and wiped out the terrorists. That is wrong. At least in my case. I hate him and his government for going to the other extreme and trying to make love to pakistan. There have been enough instances of them trying to do this.
- The ridiculous joint statement at SeS.
- Deciding unilaterally to resume dialogue with pakis whilst they find new ways to make a joke out of the Hafiz Saeed trial every day.
- Raising the bogey of Hindu Terrorism in order to direct public anger away from pakistan.
- Adopting a pusillanimous attitude towards Kashmiri separatists.

Surely there is a middle path between making war and what MMS is doing now? While our military strength may be inadequate to decisively punish the pakistanis for repeatedly murdering our people, it is more than enough to defend against any paki military aggression. So why the lovemaking then?

I am not saying MMS is a traitor. He could just be working towards getting a Nobel peace prize. In either case he is bad news for the country.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 30 Dec 2011 01:04

A_Gupta wrote:Thanks KLNMurthy! But please forgive me if I don't respond on BRF.

The right place to heap opprobrium on the Indian Prime Minister is the TSP thread, just like the right place to solve Dalit grievances is the United Nations. With friends like this, who needs enemies?

This piece of good sense, should have happened a long time back, before involving MMS in a debate. Now, that attempts to support him have been ripped apart, crying about split milk is useless.

However I think it serves a good purpose -- Paklurks should not get too cocky, they should fear the other side of India. Feeding their paranoia is important.

It is important for Pakistan to be continuously unstable, worrying about India. Worrying "what after the man of peace" etc. The more unsettled they are the more mistakes they make, the better.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 30 Dec 2011 01:09

I am still waiting for Shiv or any one else to tell us how to break the US-Pak lovemaking.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 30 Dec 2011 01:21

Another non-pious man is qadrified.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16359639

A doctor who testified that Pakistani security forces had killed a group of unarmed foreigners has himself been shot dead.

Dr Baqir Shah was gunned down in the city of Quetta.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 30 Dec 2011 01:24

Warning: GRAPHIC
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... itary.html

"The Pakistani military used brutal tactics, including indiscriminate air and artillery strikes, against the Taliban and civilians alike." The Swat Valley was once described as Pakistan's Switzerland, a favourite destination for walkers in summer and skiers in winter.

"What is more likely is that Shakira was horrifically disfigured by her own nation's military, and not by US drones," writes Bill Roggio on The Long War Journal blog.

anandsgh · Post by **anandsgh** » 30 Dec 2011 01:49

Apologies if posted earlier but this AlJazeera feature shows the Kidnapping business booming in Karachi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... e0TcnTARus

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 30 Dec 2011 02:04

Sanku wrote:I am still waiting for Shiv or any one else to tell us how to break the US-Pak lovemaking.

Although not perse how to break, the below could point to why the lovemaking.

There are too many fingers in the gravy train on both the sides due to the US-Pak lovemaking. There are too many intangibles associated in this partnership.

1) Pak is perfect laboratory to test many untested designs and proving grounds with plenty of live baits.

2) Such real life avenue for training and perfecting skills for many young personnel is hard to come by.

3) Lots of money involved in setting up of the infrastructure to support such USPak ventures and many have built careers out of it. Many a careers are based on it. It is golden egg, that helps in funding retirement for many who are involved.

4) The mere supply logistics alone would make companies earn double digit profits.

Till the joint venture turns into a humongous and visible loss making investment, it will continue in one form or other. There are no immediate pointers to indicate that it is a loss making and a bankrupt venture, atleast to the key players involved in the joint venture.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 30 Dec 2011 02:36

Sanku wrote:I am still waiting for Shiv or any one else to tell us how to break the US-Pak lovemaking.

Sanku ji,

I am sure hakim ji will give his perspective. Here is jmvho:

There are two strong opinions bordering on common shared wisdom in BRF (particularly held by some 'heavyweights') that box us in a 'vantage point' :
[*] Whether civvi or a jernail, all are rabid anti-indian and hence engagement initiatives with them is akin to "insanity" ( I was reminded of how Einstein defined it as doing repeatedly the same thing and expecting different results)
[*]Jihadi factory has "all" controls going to GHQ

IMO, both these viewpoints warrant a closer scrutiny. Even if the former viewpoint is true, it is *always* worthwhile to support civvies in the context of Pak given its history thus far. Civvies such as ZAB /BB may have come across as clever by half but puki army has always stabbed us. The power dynamic is such that it seeks to increase assertiveness. Hence we should support civvies any day/night to the point of annoying puki army. To this end, civvies might need to "show" some results which they need to be given without coming across as abject surrender.
There will be folks like CRamS / RamaY / thyself

who may find fault with this policy but hey opinions are like youknowhat, everyone has one.
On the second point, it is beyond doubt that jihadi factory is highly fragmented with linkages to different shades of Islam, sub national insurgencies, drug mafia and simple organized crime. This situation is ripe for exploitation (I daresay is in full play) whereby each of the two As in AAA are at loggerheads.

There is no point “fixing” Pakistan. Our job is only to manage Pakistan in eliminating /significantly exhausting the enemy forces in their home while encouraging the civvies to assert themselves. There you have it on how we should go about playing this thing without using the sledgehammer.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 30 Dec 2011 02:56

Significant portion of our foreign policy efforts are concentrated in our immediate neighborhood and perceptions around how we treat our immediate neighbors influence voting pattern at home and decide the election results. IOW foreign policy is heavily influenced by the issues at the home front and how they impact election results. That unfortunately is the dynamic in democracy.

One can find fault with INC and/or MMS that they play this more deftly or even overplay to an extent to cause a real or perceived national security issue. When the same was done by Vajpayee with lahore bus yatra he received accolades of being weak-knead, jhappy-payee etc. As long as one is equal opportunity critic / basher

, one is fine otherwise he/she is just a party hack.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 30 Dec 2011 03:03

Sometimes we fantasize based on our selective choice of past behaviour and records. For example if we are completely intoxicated with so-called subnationalism, or factional sectarian infighting within Islam or mullahcracy, or so-called civvy-military naqhra in Pakiland - we are actually choosing to interpret some facets of Pakilan-Islamo dynamics that helps us justify our own policy of letting Pakistan be. A policy of not doing anything that is aimed at eventual destruction of its state structure, and a complete erasure of Islamic institutional structure that regenerates jihad in every Islamic society since the invention of the ideology.

We will ignore the other facet of this wonderful reality that shows - no change - absolutely no change in policy towards India, from the Paki rashtra - no matter whether it is civvies or jernails or maulanas pulling the ropes. No matter whether they hang draw and quarter each other over the finer points of lineage from Arabia or Iran, or the declination angle of a particular tail of a written character of a particular sura from their holy text, or the length and colouring of male body hair of particular body parts - their attitude towards India and the "Hindu" never changes.

We fail to study and track the increasing Islamization and consolidation of power in the hands of Islamists at every level of the Paki state. This was a process that started right in earnest from 1952-53. Through Yahya and Bhutto and Zia and BB and Mushy - gradually the feudals, the military and the Dawaists transformed each other more and more into a semi-Caliphate structure. Here feudal obstruction of land-reforms, industrialization only at the hands of the feudals, educational transformation of societal schooling into jihad schools, incorporation of upper echelons of the military into the fedual system, all laid out the base for caliphatization.

On top of that, feudal resistance towards agricultural taxation and prevention of rapid industrialization [so that their feudal social control is not jeopardized as well as the educational liberalization required for such industrialization would jeopardize both feudal as well as Dawaists] has restricted the Paki state's tax base from being widened enough for the state to keep its commitments to its citizens.

This arena of the state has then consciously been given over to the Dawaists who dispense the role that the state plays in modern nations. The Dawaists [including the ones that sponsor LeT] are the ones who have brought up at least two generations and are still bringing up the "civvies". These civvies go into the lower rung of the coercive forces of the rashtra. And we expect them to be less "backstabbing" than their "military"?!!!

Anindya · Post by **Anindya** » 30 Dec 2011 03:05

Don't know why this is necessary - also, shouldn't someone look into what this Paki was doing when he was skipping classes?

Delhi University may allow Pak student with poor attendance to take exam

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 30 Dec 2011 04:25

shiv wrote:When was the last time a civilian "leader" in Papistan actually openly criticized the army and either appointed someone new or got away with it? I think it has occurred once or twice before aside from Nawz Sharif's failed attempt - but just curious about details. Wasn't the appointement of Zia done by Bhutto. But I think there was someone else too.

SSridhar wrote:Shiv, I can't think of anybody other than, as you mentioned, ZAB replacing his military chiefs. Of course, Nawaz did so and paid the penalty the second time. The first time, he sent Gen. Jehangir Karamat packing successfully.

Its a trick question, Shiv. To criticize the army and get away with it. To my knowledge, no one has had the jurrat to do that to date and get away with it (i.e., with his life, property, wife and/or position) because no "civilian" leader has lasted the full five years of his tenure as the PM. Gilani may have come across recently as having criticized the army but the day is not over yet. Besides, it was a veiled criticism promptly followed by a kiss and make up session.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 30 Dec 2011 04:27

Anindya wrote:Don't know why this is necessary - also, shouldn't someone look into what this Paki was doing when he was skipping classes? Delhi University may allow Pak student with poor attendance to take exam

Department of Germanic and Romance Studies? What next? Department of Hindu Mythology?

lakshmikanth · Post by **lakshmikanth** » 30 Dec 2011 04:46

^^Anupmisra ji,

OT
The reason for the existence of such departments could be Administrative bloatware (for ex: there are two people in competing position for HOD in English literature and both of them are valuable. Solution could be to split the department into Shakespeare era literature and post mordern English dept

. Ofcourse it does not do anything but add more bureaucracy, but the employees are happy because there are more places that they can twiddle their thumbs.)

University of Nebraska similarly had a program for learning Afghani and Pasthu, and ended up being a valuable place after Charlie Wilson got unkil's Musharraf into that area. So who knows, it might be useful for us someday

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 30 Dec 2011 06:04

rajanb wrote:
CRS: Why don't you start closer to home? Use the same line of thought for ex-President Short Hairs who attacked the wrong country? And the line of Presidents who thought Papistan was their best friend?

America has given you a well ordered society, to the building of which you never contributed. Give something back to them in gratitude?

Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, hain ji? MMS or any Indian leader should undo the decades of double speak of Americ, which conveniently calls us a strategic and the worlds largest democracy!

Leave me out of the picture and concentrate on the issues I am highlighting. To your point above, I don't know how long you have been on BR, but yes, I have boldly, avowedly, courageously, audaciously have taken on US elites to extent I could and asked them tough questions about TSP and US aid to them, about TSP terror being left out of the gamut of the so called GWOT. And I have done this often times at some personal risk and even making a fool of myself (US elites when cornered use their TFTA power over us SDREs: they will say if you don't stop, I will report you to the authorities. The argument ends there). In US, Indians or shall we say "South Asians" are India's worst enemies. And so I have even made a fool of myself speaking up for India's case in various fora with "South Asian" speakers who are so coy to deviate an inch beyond India TSP equal equal, and audience dominated by "South Asians".

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 30 Dec 2011 06:08

@CRamS you may be missing the point that MMS's supposed pursuit of friendship with TSP represents a significant consensus in India. That is something I deplore, and wish MMS was the kind of leader who would shape a different consensus and direction, and often feel frustrated that it has no chance of happening, but that doesn't add up to hating on MMS. I wonder why you focus so much on him personally.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 30 Dec 2011 06:09

^^^^

...even making a fool of myself

Utterly superfluous effort.