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CHENNAI: Research is underway at the Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) to develop light weight tanks for the Indian Army, said S D Dimri, Director General, Ordnance Factories, here on Wednesday.
He was speaking at the golden jubilee celebrations of the Avadi Heavy Vehicles Factory (AHVF).
Addressing mediapersons on the upcoming developments, he said the technology to destroy anti-tank missiles had been bought from Russia and the same, to be introduced soon, would be upgraded to suit the needs of the Indian tanks.� “The present tanks weigh around 45-60 tonnes. Technological superiority is increasingly going to be the decisive factor in future battles. The prediction is that future tanks would weigh less than 30 tonnes, mak- ing them light enough to� fly in fleets of C-130 transports, land on dirt strips,� and roll off ready to fight,” Dimri said.
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Marriage of Abhay and tank EX!! The baby would need to come quickly as an rfp for light tanks is already out and the army will not wait.
err it has been repeated by all quarters that K5 is being used as a stop gap till DRDO's next gen ERA (possibly NERA) comes along. d_berwal said DRDO ERA IS K-5, which isn't correct AFAIK.
So finally my FMBT concept is getting more advocates! 35t,3 man crew,turretless tank with larger missile-firing main gun.It is going to be a tough task maintaining the weight down to as much as 30t,but anything in the vicinity,give or take 5t+,will be a major achievement.Even here the cost/value of an FMBT needs to be kept in perspective with that of a dedicated attack helo,which will be its principal enemy in battle.
As Iwas telling someone Philip saar will be on the scene soon.
Like clockwork
Hmm your FMBT did not plan on 30 tons did it?? oh well lets give you that. (err note you can 30 tons tanks right now no need for future - only problem is it will be ripped and shredded in the battlefield)
Now tell us what protection levels you expect from your 30 ton FMBT.
What other tech?/
you mentioned turretless. you mentioned large calibre gun - pray please tell us what calibre so we can record it. (note neither one are futuristic as they already have been tried out)
Indian Army may get tanks with radar tracking system
The Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) intends to acquire technology to manufacture tanks equipped with automatic radar tracking system that can detect and destroy enemy missiles aimed at them, Shashi Dhar Dimri, Director-General of Ordnance Factories and Chairman of the OFB said on Wednesday.
Speaking at the Golden Jubilee of the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) at Avadi here, Mr. Dimri said technological superiority was increasingly going to be the decisive factor in future battles.
“The prediction is that future tanks would weigh less than 30 tonnes, become more fuel efficient, easily transportable and provide all-round protection against mines, rocket-propelled grenades and quick firing canon shells…this technology has to be acquired. We have to upgrade our technological capability.”
Describing the HVF as a technology powerhouse and backbone of the OFB, he said the tank was the single most technologically sophisticated weapon platform combining firepower, mobility and protection. The credit for making the country self-reliant in armoured vehicle primarily went to the HVF. The factory had improved the capability of Ajeya (T-72) tanks by incorporating new features. It was taking care of the lifecycle requirements of the Tanks by supplying spares.
“The Government has sanctioned new projects to augment the production capacity of the tanks and spares for armoured vehicles such as T-72 and T-90 tanks. This is being done to ensure that the HVF becomes the leader in defence production.”
Mr. Dimri said two more Ordnance Factories would come up at Korba and Nalanda. A lot of technology was being bought from Russia and the latest was the move to procure ‘Smerch' rocket which has a range of about 90-km and rated as one of the best in the world.
HVF General Manager M.S.N. Rao said the turnover of the factory was likely to cross Rs. 2,800 crore in 2011-12 and it was poised to face the challenges of future.
Speaking on the occasion, M.C. Bansal, Additional Director General (Armoured Vehicles) said HVF was embarking on a massive expansion programme for enhancing the production capacity of T-90 Tanks, T-72 variants and for production of spares with an investment of Rs. 1562 crore.
Mr. Dimri released the golden jubilee souvenir brought out to mark the celebrations.
In a bid to meet the ever increasing demand of armoured vehicles and allied systems from the Army, Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) is embarking on a massive expansion programme for enhancing the production capacity of T-90 Tanks, T-72 variants and for production of spares with an investment of Rs 1,562 crore.
Further, the capacity of MBT Arjun will also be enhanced to 50 numbers per annum from the existing 30 numbers per year, said M.C. Bansal, additional director general armed vehicles, at the golden jubilee celebrations of HVF in Avadi on Wednesday.
“As on date, there is enough workload and I am confident that there will be orders continuously placed at the factory for the next eight to 10 years,” he added. He further noted that the ministry of defence and ordnance factory board (OFB) have high hopes on HVF, as it is the flagship unit of OFB.
Starting with the production of battle tank Vijayanta, HVF now manufactures prestigious combat lethal battle tanks fleet of armoured combat vehicles for the Army namely 72 (Ajeya), T-90s (Bhishma), MBT Arjun Tanks and their variants using latest state of art technology.
Till date, HVF has produced 2,105 Vijayantha tanks, 1,300 T-72 tanks, 113 armoured recovery vehicles, 48 self propelled 130mm guns, 823 T-72 (OH) tank, 451 T-90 tank and 110 MBT Arjun.
ADDED LATER : A regiment seems to be 45 active tanks + 17 for training and reserves. So 451 T-90s is little more that 7 Regiments not 10
The total direct order (120) + HVF production (451) = 571 which is a little more than 9 regiments
Last edited by Bishwa on 30 Dec 2011 11:07, edited 2 times in total.
At present, the 310 T-90S tanks imported from Russia, at a cost of over Rs 3,625 crore, under the February 2001 contract are divided into five to seven regiments between the XXI (Bhopal) and II (Ambala) "strike corps".
The first lot of 124 T-90S tanks was bought off-the-shelf, while the rest 186 were imported in knocked-down condition to be subsequently assembled at the Heavy Vehicles Factory at Avadi.
I was dreaming about a super composite kevlar heavy duty 20Ton 2 man tank, where the commander is a remote entity, while the loader is fully automated, and the driver and gunner are the two men firing a mini tank. The turret has a retractable muzzle, that move on a 360* central axis, and the wheels & tracks covering complete top and bottom to keep it moving when it flips.
SaiK wrote:I was dreaming about a super composite kevlar heavy duty 20Ton 2 man tank, where the commander is a remote entity, while the loader is fully automated, and the driver and gunner are the two men firing a mini tank. The turret has a retractable muzzle, that move on a 360* central axis, and the wheels & tracks covering complete top and bottom to keep it moving when it flips.
The M8 is armed with the M35 rifled autoloading 105 mm cannon main gun with an M240 7.62 mm machine-gun mounted co-axially. The M35 has a rate of fire of approximately 12 rounds per minute, with a ready capacity of 21 rounds with 9 more in stowage. Power is provided by a Detroit Diesel 6V-92TIA diesel developing 580 hp.
19.25 tons (Level I Armor)
22.25 tons (Level II Armor)
24.75 tons (Level III Armor)
thought it is 3 crew we can modiffy it to 2 crew and some other customization will fit your dream project SaiK Ji
VinayG wrote: <SNIP>At present, the 310 T-90S tanks imported from Russia, at a cost of over Rs 3,625 crore, under the February 2001 contract are divided into five to seven regiments between the XXI (Bhopal) and II (Ambala) "strike corps".<SNIP>
What we do know for sure is that between 1st Armored Division (2 Corps) and 31st Armored Division (21 Corps), there are for sure 10 Armored Regiments with T-90. What this means is that we've partially incorporated tanks from 2001 and 2007 purchase (310+347=647) order. IIRC, as per d_berwal, the plan is to get all the three armored divisions up and running with t-90 by 2012. So, even@5 T-90 regiments per division (6th being T-72), we need 15 Regiments or 675 T-90 tanks at the minimum.
Summary
* Army has not finalised FMBT specifications
* Tank required by 2020, when T-72s start retiring
* DRDO has begun work on 1,500 HP engine
* Ricardo, AVL are potential design consultants
* Indian industry partner will manufacture engine
* Planning ahead for tandem “hybrid” engine
India’s Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT), the backbone of the army’s strike power into the mid-21 st century, languishes while the army continues an extended debate over its specifications.
A year ago, on December 6 2010, Defence Minister A K Antony told the Lok Sabha that the army had formulated the FMBT’s specifications and the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) was carrying out feasibility studies. Antony, it now emerges, misled parliament. MoD sources say the army remains undecided about the basic features of the FMBT, including whether it should have three crew members or four. Consequently, the army has not finalised the FMBT’s Preliminary Staff Qualitative Requirements (PSQR), essential for sanctioning the project and allocating funding.
The PSQR also allows engineers to begin designing the FMBT. It specifies the tank’s capabilities and components, including its weight; dimensions; mobility; weaponry; armour protection; communications; and any special capabilities that are required, e.g. the ability to drive underwater; or operate on a nuclear battlefield.
But the DRDO has begun work, anxious to shield the FMBT from the delays that plagued the Arjun programme. The FMBT must roll out by 2020, when the army’s oldest T-72 tanks, which entered service in 1979, complete their 32-year service lives. Business Standard was granted exclusive permission to visit the Combat Vehicles R&D Establishment (CVRDE), the DRDO facility outside Chennai where the Arjun Mark II is nearing completion and the FMBT will be developed.
P Sivakumar, CVRDE’s livewire director, revealed that work had begun on crucial FMBT systems, even without a PSQR. Based on the army’s weight limit of 50 tonnes for the FMBT, the DRDO has launched a “mission mode” project to develop an 1,800 Horse Power (Hp) indigenous engine. Sivakumar says 1500 Hp is sufficient for a 50-tonne tank, but the endemic danger of weight over-runs in a new tank makes a 300 Hp margin prudent.
The project will co-opt domestic engineering companies like Kirloskar Oil Engines, BEML, and the Mahindras; research institutions like IITs; and bodies like the Automotive Research Association of India, Pune. An Indian “prime contractor” would assemble the FMBT engines from engine components supplied by a network of sub-contractors.
“India has never designed engines; engine technology has always been imported. But we will develop the FMBT engine as a national project. Our approach is not engine-specific; we are looking at developing the complete range of technologies needed for building engines. Not only design… but also manufacturing, testing, evaluation,” says Sivakumar.
This ambitious plan is cushioned with pragmatism. The DRDO has brought in international consultants to design the engine and build Indian manufacturing capability in engine-related fields. Sivakumar says that German companies MTU and Renk, which supply engines and transmissions for the Arjun tank, refused to provide consultancy, realising that building Indian capability would end their market here. DRDO is now evaluating consultancy proposals from Ricardo of Britain and AVL of Austria.
“Simultaneously, we have floated an Expression of Interest (EoI) to identify an Indian manufacturing partner. The consultant we select will work in a consortium with the DRDO; the army; and the Indian manufacturing partner, who will be associated with the programme from the design stage itself. We have allowed the consultants to visit manufacturing companies and report on their capability to build a modern engine,” explains Sivakumar.
The CVRDE director says the consultants will finalise the engine design within 12 months, and take 18 months more to build the first prototype. “Within 30 months, or three years maximum, the first engine would be ready for testing,” he says.
“Both Ricardo and AVL have proposed that they design and build the first prototypes. But the Indian industry will work alongside the consultant. The first design is never perfect; so the consultant will make the changes needed in design, tolerances, or materials to refine the engine. Then, in the second phase, the Indian partner will produce the engine,” says Sivakumar.
Even as CVRDE develops this technological capacity, it is looking further ahead at a hybrid engine for the FMBT after 2030. Sivakumar says that a tank remains static for at least 40 per cent of the time in battle, during which time its engine idles. “This means that 40 per cent of the time, you wastefully run a 1,500 Hp engine, guzzling diesel and giving away the tank’s position, while you need very little power for running electricals like the radios and gun control equipment or for moving the tank slowly. So, we are evolving a hybrid technology concept in which the tank will have two engines: a 500 Hp engine for low power mode and another 1,000 Hp engine that kicks in when high power is required, e.g. for manoeuvring in battle,” explains the CVRDE director.
^^^^ They did try to build engine last time. So, they haven't actually "learn't a lesson." They are merely following the lesson. Even that time Kirloskar was approached to be involved. So was Cummings etc. Just that now there are more companies, better budget and more flexibility in terms of availability. If MTU can disallow consultancy now, imagine what it was like those days.
BTW, Is AS turning anti-Army? When I tried to bring out same things in past, I was labeled anti-army. Some food for thought.
but for 50t isnt 1800hp overkill given the 71t merkava and 68t abrams run on 1500hp engines. sure more electronics will feature in future tanks but they are getting low power all the time.
I think Nissan and some others have a tech wherein they shut upto 3 cyl of a 6cyl engine when the speed is built up and torque needed drops...it gets activated as needed. instead of two separate engines maybe such a engine could be tried..? else two sets of spare engines, two sets of spares....
great idea to tap the small cos in europe...the IP would be owned by us once they deliver on the contract.
My comments in Red
India’s Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT), the backbone of the army’s strike power into the mid-21 st century, languishes while the army continues an extended debate over its specifications. Drop this FMBT bitch and just incrementally improve Arjun. If we go for unmanned turret the weight of Arjun itself will fall by 10 to 15 tons. USA has failed with FMBT after spending US$ 20 Billion dollars as the concept is ahead of time.
…………..
But the DRDO has begun work, anxious to shield the FMBT from the delays that plagued the Arjun programme. The FMBT must roll out by 2020, when the army’s oldest T-72 tanks, which entered service in 1979, complete their 32-year service lives. Business Standard was granted exclusive permission to visit the Combat Vehicles R&D Establishment (CVRDE), the DRDO facility outside Chennai where the Arjun Mark II is nearing completion and the FMBT will be developed.
T-72 are being upgraded with new engines and electronics which means a new tank hence no hurry or if there is any hurry make more Arjuns. Now now, do I hear bells of Russian church calling the faithful for their new T-xx FMBTs
P Sivakumar, CVRDE’s livewire director, revealed that work had begun on crucial FMBT systems, even without a PSQR. Based on the army’s weight limit of 50 tonnes for the FMBT, the DRDO has launched a “mission mode” project to develop an 1,800 Horse Power (Hp) indigenous engine. Sivakumar says 1500 Hp is sufficient for a 50-tonne tank, but the endemic danger of weight over-runs in a new tank makes a 300 Hp margin prudent.
Super Great project, love love kiss kiss from Katrina Kaif. Note- Ka-893 which new engine series of MTU can pump upto 2500hp but is derated to 1500 hp for tanks. Due to Rajasthan heat issues, an engine with adequate margin is good idea.
The project will co-opt domestic engineering companies like Kirloskar Oil Engines, BEML, and the Mahindras; research institutions like IITs; and bodies like the Automotive Research Association of India, Pune. An Indian “prime contractor” would assemble the FMBT engines from engine components supplied by a network of sub-contractors.
“India has never designed engines; engine technology has always been imported. But we will develop the FMBT engine as a national project. Our approach is not engine-specific; we are looking at developing the complete range of technologies needed for building engines. Not only design… but also manufacturing, testing, evaluation,” says Sivakumar. Supr duper great but where are TATAs, Crompton Greaves etc?? Also should one not involve navy also as they would need such engine variants? What about variants of this engine for gen sets, railways, tatra trucks etc
This ambitious plan is cushioned with pragmatism. The DRDO has brought in international consultants to design the engine and build Indian manufacturing capability in engine-related fields. Sivakumar says that German companies MTU and Renk, which supply engines and transmissions for the Arjun tank, refused to provide consultancy, realising that building Indian capability would end their market here. DRDO is now evaluating consultancy proposals from Ricardo of Britain and AVL of Austria. Good idea
“Simultaneously, we have floated an Expression of Interest (EoI) to identify an Indian manufacturing partner. The consultant we select will work in a consortium with the DRDO; the army; and the Indian manufacturing partner, who will be associated with the programme from the design stage itself. We have allowed the consultants to visit manufacturing companies and report on their capability to build a modern engine,” explains Sivakumar.
Terrific
The CVRDE director says the consultants will finalise the engine design within 12 months, and take 18 months more to build the first prototype. “Within 30 months, or three years maximum, the first engine would be ready for testing,” he says.
“Both Ricardo and AVL have proposed that they design and build the first prototypes. But the Indian industry will work alongside the consultant. The first design is never perfect; so the consultant will make the changes needed in design, tolerances, or materials to refine the engine. Then, in the second phase, the Indian partner will produce the engine,” says Sivakumar.
I don’t understand this, we are doing the R&D or outsourcing it?? Anyway mass commercial manufacture will start only around 2020 but knowing Pvt sector and their hurry to make money it might even be 2017 provided DRDO is able to actually award the contracts.
Even as CVRDE develops this technological capacity, it is looking further ahead at a hybrid engine for the FMBT after 2030. Sivakumar says that a tank remains static for at least 40 per cent of the time in battle, during which time its engine idles. “This means that 40 per cent of the time, you wastefully run a 1,500 Hp engine, guzzling diesel and giving away the tank’s position, while you need very little power for running electricals like the radios and gun control equipment or for moving the tank slowly. So, we are evolving a hybrid technology concept in which the tank will have two engines: a 500 Hp engine for low power mode and another 1,000 Hp engine that kicks in when high power is required, e.g. for manoeuvring in battle,” explains the CVRDE director.
That is another super long term project prone to failure. Better just go with better APU.
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Business Standard was granted exclusive permission to visit the Combat Vehicles R&D Establishment (CVRDE), the DRDO facility outside Chennai where the Arjun Mark II is nearing completion; and the FMBT will be developed.
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Does this mean there will only be the Arjun Mk.2 and after that R&D will move forward with the FMBT design? So looks like, Mk.3 will be the FMBT. This is all the more reason to order maximum number of Arjun Mk.2 variant.
srai wrote:Does this mean there will only be the Arjun Mk.2 and after that R&D will move forward with the FMBT design? So looks like, Mk.3 will be the FMBT. This is all the more reason to order maximum number of Arjun Mk.2 variant.
Srai, as mentioned in the past, the Arjun mk's will increase with testing and absorption of FMBT technologies. I can visualise Mk -3 or 4 with 1800 hp engine
chackojoseph wrote:BTW, Is AS turning anti-Army? When I tried to bring out same things in past, I was labeled anti-army. Some food for thought.
CJ there is fine difference between improving oneself from others suggestions and changing ones stand becasue of others opinion.
Improving is fine and to some extent imperative, but changing ones stand is (i can't find a decent word so lets say something which should not be done). Labels should never worry a journo. Those who know you would not doubt your motive, for others you have to accept criticism but stick with your truth.
Supr duper great but where are TATAs, Crompton Greaves etc?? Also should one not involve navy also as they would need such engine variants? What about variants of this engine for gen sets, railways, tatra trucks etc
A tank engine is a very specialized engine, that is meant to run for only a few 1000 kms (around 10K), deliver high power and have a small form factor. They are rated at their PEAK power and not continuous power.
You cannot obviously put such an engine in a bus or a truck or a train or a ship , where engines operate at continuous power for months on end in some case . Those engines tend to have a larger form factor for their size. Compare the power output of a volvo truck and the engine size, with that of a tank and it's engine size and power output.
For a 50T tank 1500 HP engine is a kill and 1800 and over kill , if they stick to that weight then a higher HP engine will burn more fuel which will impact its range , a 1200 hp engine would be more than adequate
Austin wrote:For a 50T tank 1500 HP engine is a kill and 1800 and over kill , if they stick to that weight then a higher HP engine will burn more fuel which will impact its range , a 1200 hp engine would be more than adequate
...
Even as CVRDE develops this technological capacity, it is looking further ahead at a hybrid engine for the FMBT after 2030. Sivakumar says that a tank remains static for at least 40% of the time in battle, during which time its engine idles. “This means that 40% of the time, you wastefully run a 1500 HP engine, guzzling diesel and giving away the tank’s position, while you need very little power for running electricals like the radios and gun control equipment or for moving the tank slowly. So we are evolving a hybrid technology concept in which the tank will have two engines: a 500 HP engine for low power mode and another 1000 HP engine that kicks in when high power is required, e.g. for manoeuvring in battle,” explains the CVRDE director.
...
According to the highlighted text, there are two engines: 500HP and 1,000HP. IMO, the 1,000HP main maneuvering engine could be targeted to be around 1,200-1,300HP. Together 1,300HP main maneuvering engine and 500HP low power static engine would total to 1,800 HP.
Also, there are two factors for R&Ding into higher HP than what the design calls for:
It seems that indigenous R&D of engines have produced lesser HP than designed for. So if the R&D target is 1,800 HP, actual realized HP might come out to be 1,500 HP.
It seems services' ASR requirements "evolve" and a lot more items are added to the original design (i.e. scope creep); thus, adding more weight than planned for. R&D into extra HP than called for is for this contingency.
they are looking at hyrbid engine only after 2030. 2020-2030 it will run on a single engine.
as Austin said, no matter what you hang on a 50t beast - and there has to be some logical limit to it - I cant see why it even needs 1500hp...no 50t vehicle in armoured history likely had such a powerful engine...while the engine may output such power, effectively using all that through the drivetrain and the wheels is another challenge.
to me a state of art, fuel efficient, light, reliable, durable and compact 1350hp engine will have the margin and save on some volume vs 1800hp due to less number of cylinders needed. this space could be used to enlarge internal fuel and avoid the ugly 'drop tanks'
or maybe they know the IA will let go of the 50t fetish and settle for 65t hence planning ahead for that day rather than end up with a 65t hull and 1200hp engine in 2020
once this engine is available, we could reengine all the Arjuns with it cost permitting at some point...if IA wants addl bolt on armour, NERA and top and side armour to defeat emerging top-attack atgm and chinese-paki du ammo threats.
Singha wrote:but for 50t isnt 1800hp overkill given the 71t merkava and 68t abrams run on 1500hp engines. sure more electronics will feature in future tanks but they are getting low power all the time.
singha ji, extra hp may come handy for Direct Energy Weapons.
This FMBT BS started as a red herring for some former Tin can supporters to get rid of the Arjun and now has taken a life of its own.
The fact is looking 8 yrs ahead there is very little futuristic in the horizon. None of the tank powers see anything dramatic in the next 8 yrs. Hence the dithering because when you have have not even thought of a futuristic truck\jeep\wheeled vehicle it is very very hard to come up with a FMBT.
Lets first get a 1000 production run of the Arjun in the next 5 - 7 yrs in different versions with incremental improvements.
The better option is to focus on an indegenous tank engine \transmission project and make sure that is available in the next 5 - 7 yrs.
hence planning ahead for that day rather than end up with a 65t hull and 1200hp engine 
