ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Dec 2011 08:30

Kanson wrote:Aster 30 block 2 == Indian AAD missile

The Aster 30 Block 2 and Aster SAMP-T are different missile.

AAD and Aster SAMP-T capabilities are broadly similar , Aster though is a twin stage missile with slightly higher energy.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 06 Dec 2011 18:34

Austin wrote:The Aster 30 Block 2 and Aster SAMP-T are different missile.

As far as I know, Aster 30, Aster 30 Block 1 and Block 2 are part of land based SAMP/T air-defence system. I guess you are mixing up with Naval based Aster 30 missile system.

Aster though is a twin stage missile with slightly higher energy.

Interesting part is it is meant to defeat SS-26 Iskander missile. At the least that was the claim.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Dec 2011 18:49

Kanson wrote:As far as I know, Aster 30, Aster 30 Block 1 and Block 2 are part of land based SAMP/T air-defence system. I guess you are mixing up with Naval based Aster 30 missile system.

The Block 2 is a new missile designed to intercept 3000 km range missile at higher altitude and is HTK system , Aster 30/SAMP-T are lower tier missile like AAD.

Interesting part is it is meant to defeat SS-26 Iskander missile. At the least that was the claim.

Ofcourse there is nothing like un-interceptable missile given the right tool to do the job , It would take the same effort to intercept Iskander-M as it would take to intercept Shaurya as both are hypersonic boost glide vehical and travels at 40- 50 km altitude.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 06 Dec 2011 19:30

Austin wrote:The Block 2 is a new missile designed to intercept 3000 km range missile at higher altitude and is HTK system , Aster 30/SAMP-T are lower tier missile like AAD.

Aster 30 or Block 1 deals only with SRBM. Whereas Block 2 deals with TBM which is what AAD also does. So Aster 30 cannot be equated with AAD.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Dec 2011 22:07

Kanson wrote:Aster 30 or Block 1 deals only with SRBM. Whereas Block 2 deals with TBM which is what AAD also does. So Aster 30 cannot be equated with AAD.

Many believe Europe is underselling Aster 30 SAMP/T capability considering it has the same specs as AAD and much better then PAC-3 with HTK capability , its being just told as anti SRBM capability but in reality its capability is similar to AAD and better then PAC-3.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 15 Dec 2011 18:57

Austin wrote:
Kanson wrote:Aster 30 or Block 1 deals only with SRBM. Whereas Block 2 deals with TBM which is what AAD also does. So Aster 30 cannot be equated with AAD.
Many believe Europe is underselling Aster 30 SAMP/T capability considering it has the same specs as AAD and much better then PAC-3 with HTK capability , its being just told as anti SRBM capability but in reality its capability is similar to AAD and better then PAC-3.

If we have to go by the emerging news, MBDA is pitching only Aster 2 for competition against PAC-3 in European market. That tells you about the inherent capabilities & limitations of Aster 30 SAMP/T.

Further, only warhead of Aster 2 is similar to that of PAC-3.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Dec 2011 10:34

Singha will enjoy this

South Korea unveils own interceptor missile

South Korea on Thursday unveiled an indigenous interceptor missile built to counter North Korean jets and missiles.

The Agency for Defense Development (ADD) introduced the Iron Hawk-II surface-to-air missile in a ceremony at its headquarters in Daejeon, about 160 kilometers south of Seoul.

The ADD said it and 15 local defense companies built the missile after more than five years of work.

According to the ADD, the Iron Hawk-II can travel at 10 kilometers to 15 kilometers above ground, with a range of up to 40 kilometers. It has been designed to target North Korean ballistic missiles and fighter jets traveling at a similar altitude. The ADD said the Iron Hawk-II can also intercept air-to-surface guided missiles.

It added the new missile can attack multiple targets with a single radar system and boast better accuracy than other surface-to-air guided weapons currently in operation.

“The multi-functional radar on the Iron Hawk-II can detect and identify enemy airplanes and can also guide the missile toward the target,” the ADD said in a statement. “This will vastly improve our forces’ capabilities in multi-target engagements and in electronic warfare.”

Lee Hee-chul, a senior researcher at the ADD, said the successful development of the Iron Hawk-II proves that South Korea’s technology and development capabilities are on par with other advanced nations.

“In addition to improving our air defense, the missile has given us confidence to further build guided weapons to intercept ballistic missiles,” Lee added.

Video

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 18 Dec 2011 10:45

nice, the missile system is as attractive as the news rep chick.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Dec 2011 11:17

beautiful camera work by the Koreans. they are coming on strong and by 2020 will be a tier-1 mil-industrial nation if present trends continue - tanks , small arms, SP guns, radars, planes, missiles, ships they are making them all...

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Dec 2011 17:35

What happened to our new interceptor Pradyumna ( PDV ) which was suppose to take this year , is there any delay since its been a long time any ABM test took place ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Dec 2011 17:46

they must be working on it, hopefully testable in 2012 after 12-18 months "delay". its necessary to replace the PAD and complete ph1 shield per wiki.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 19 Dec 2011 23:36

The AAD/PAD Combo test which was scheduled to take place in end 2010 is already 12 months delayed, and counting...

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 20 Dec 2011 04:06

Austin wrote:
South Korea unveils own interceptor missile

Neat Video.

The gas thrusters on the missile and the missile itself reminds me of the Russian Tor missile system (The fins upfront are missing here)

Weren't the Russians collaborating with the South Koreans in developing Space (satellite launching) and Missile technologies?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Dec 2011 10:06

sudhan wrote:The gas thrusters on the missile and the missile itself reminds me of the Russian Tor missile system (The fins upfront are missing here)

Weren't the Russians collaborating with the South Koreans in developing Space (satellite launching) and Missile technologies?

The KM-SAM and another new ABM missile is being developed with Russian collaboration hence the typical Russian style thrusters seen in KM-SAM.

http://defense-update.com/20111217_cheongung_mrsam.html

The first is the medium-range air defense system known as KM-SAM, developed in Russia by the Almaz Design Bureau, in association with an industry team from Korea lead by Samsung Thales. This team included missile builder LIG Nex1 and platform manufacturer Doosan DST. Further localization and industrialization were done in South Korea, making the new weapon system an indigenous program.

The key for this capability are the compact multi-function radar developed by Thales-Samsung. Target data and intercept commands are transferred to the missile just prior to firing, with mid-course updates relayed in flight. The vertically launched missile is designed for high maneuverability withstanding loads of up to 50g. It weighs 400 kg, and uses INS guidance with midcourse updates, with active-homing RF seeker for terminal guidance. The multi-function radar is a 3D plannar active array system operating in the X band, it rotates at a rate of 40 rpm and covers up to 80 degrees in elevation.

The upper tier interceptor will be designed intercept ballistic missiles, offering capabilities similar to the American THAAD missile. This new missile is expected to be based on the Russian S-400 technology; it is designated Cheolmae 4-H, and will offer a range of 150 km and ceiling of about 200,000 ft, offering performance levels twice superior to the Patriot and future Cheolmae II missiles. This project is expected to cost around $812 million.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 31 Dec 2011 23:54

UAE buys THAAD

U.S. Seals $3.48B Missiles, Technology Sale to United Arab Emirates

The United States has reached a deal to sell $3.48 billion worth of missiles and related technology to the United Arab Emirates, a close Mideast ally, as part of a massive buildup of defense technology among friendly Mideast nations near Iran.

Pentagon spokesman George Little announced the Christmas Day sale on Friday night. He said the U.S. and U.A.E. have a strong defense relationship and are both interested in "a secure and stable" Persian Gulf region.

The deal includes 96 missiles, along with supporting technology and training support that Little says will bolster the nation's missile defense capacity.

The deal includes a contract with Lockheed Martin to produce the highly sophisticated Terminal High Altitude Area Defense, or THAAD, weapon system for the U.A.E.

Tom McGrath, vice president and program manager for Lockheed Martin's THAAD program in Dallas, said in a statement it was the first foreign military sale of the THAAD system.

THAAD interceptors are produced at Lockheed Martin's Pike County Facility in Troy, Alabama. The launchers and fire control units are produced at the company's Camden, Ark., facility.

Wary of Iran, the U.S. has been building up missile defenses of its allies, including a $1.7 billion deal to upgrade Saudi Arabia's Patriot missiles and the sale of 209 Patriot missiles to Kuwait, valued at about $900 million.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Jan 2012 08:24

Austin wrote:
Video

The target drone looks just like Lakshya and the topple and stabilise thrusters for the missile look just like Brahmos.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 01 Jan 2012 08:40

thats why I have been advocating increased collaboration with Soko.

Unlike the Japanese there is no ambiguity with these guys and they do not look down on us

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 01 Jan 2012 08:48

S-400s and S-500s are in my opinion worth seriously examining ,while we perfect our own AAD.There's nothing amiss with having an alternative system,that works,while we develop our own,which can be later manufactured in greater number than any import.But the need to acquire/possess a working ABM system is NOW,while the window of opportunity that our enemies enjoy right now remains open.If one examines the US's history of developing an ABM system,it has taken hundreds of missile tests and several types of missiles developed to induct a layered ABM system that also includes SM-3 missiles aboard USN warships.Right now,we are just inducting Akash-1,yet to obtain Barak-8,testing the Prithvi AAD and do not have any working ABM system,unless it has been kept secret,which actually is a position/reality that should be made public to reassure our own populace as well as deterring any jingoistic ,adventurous behaviour from either the PRC or the Pakis.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jan 2012 09:17

the Soko TELAR looks like what Prahaar could become if its produced.

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 01 Jan 2012 09:27

This is what Lakshya PTA looks like

This is a grab from the video...

Fair amount of differences between the two.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Jan 2012 13:56

Couple of nice Patriot PAC-3 videos , PAC-3 ERINT top speed is sheer delight to watch

PAC-3 Missile Test http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT6DzaG_658
PAC-3 Upgrade Potential http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hrZ4d1KxGY
Patriot System http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfLxOvaLZho

Seems like in some cases PAC-3 directly hits the target and breaks it off like you can see with UAC while in some tests it explodes a second or two before hitting the target and the target is hit by a ball of fire , perhaps the sensor fuse reacts to target in different ways

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Jan 2012 14:04

Philip wrote:S-400s and S-500s are in my opinion worth seriously examining ,while we perfect our own AAD.

Philip , S-400 wont be available for export for a long time since there is huge internal demand for the system and about 57 Battalions are being procured for PVO , the existing capacity cannot meet even huge internal demand , two new plants are being build and export is most likely to happen after 2018 onwards. S-500 is still on drawing board and it wont be exported due to its sensitivity , Russia has stated that S-500 ABM wont be deployed outside its territory.

The best option for us is to further develop Akash Mk2 and Mk3 variant and AAD and its further variant , while PDV gets developed we can procure small number of THAAD system like UAE did to take care of niche IRBM threats till such time our system gets fully operational.

Eventually DRDO is working on our own anti-ICBM Missile and MKV systems which will deal with current/future ICBM threats.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jan 2012 14:57

I would keep all american ABM kit incl pac3 and thaad out even at cost of less defences. they have a nasty habit to impact domestic projects in the buying nations using their lobbies and user communities.

to my knowledge no country with has pac3 is developing in parallel a equivalent abm system.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Jan 2012 19:50

Singha wrote:I would keep all american ABM kit incl pac3 and thaad out even at cost of less defences. they have a nasty habit to impact domestic projects in the buying nations using their lobbies and user communities.

Singha , I agree with keeping PAC-3 out since we have AAD and Barak-8 under development that would be similar in performance to PAC-3 but nothing to take away from PAC-3 , till date its remains the only combat proven system to have killed BM in actual combat ,During operation Enduring Freedom PAC-3 was very effective against Iraqi Al Samoud-2 and Ababil-100 TBM and scored 33 hits

to my knowledge no country with has pac3 is developing in parallel a equivalent abm system.

South Korea and Israel operate Patriot Systems yet both countries have their own independent ABM program, so countries are pursuing their own independent program and procuring to cater for immediate threat.

You must be aware that not many country have ABM program , far less for those who have anti-ICBM program , India ,US and Russia are the only country with such anti ICBM program with only India pursuing single KV and MKV capability , which would even put us ahead in technology terms when compared to the other two if its successful.

Even Europe has to depend on US for anti-ICBM program and Israel ,SoKo ,and Europe are just pursuing anti-IRBM capability.

Procuring small number of THAAD system is not a bad idea if its done only temporarily till PDV comes which i think will take 4-5 years to mature , you can only imagine what impact THAAD system will have on Pakistan and China even if we procure in small numbers with its ability to take out 3,500 km class missile at 150 km altitude it will immediately nullify all of Pakistan strategic arsenal in a single stroke

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 01 Jan 2012 21:12

It seems AAD is far superior to PAC-3. The earlier variants of the Patriot missiles were disaster. During the last gulf war, the PAC-3's performed well against Iraqi missile that were very inferior and had a range of 130 and Al-Samoud-2 having 180 km.
While we have successfully tested the AAD against modified Prithvi-II that can mimic the M-11 with a range of 300km.
There is no need to procure PAC-3 while having superior AAD in hand. The current PAD missile is capable enough to stop ballistic missiles upto a range of 2000km. Hence the silence from Pakistan.
Regarding speed, I do find the speed of Akash to be very very impressive and that of AAD very impressive. By the way AAD is India's patriot-3.

For the THAAD equivalent, its better to wait for the test to take place. The test is supposed to take place this year.
Earlier they were calling it the PDV. May be a missile based on the Prithvi. Like an improvement of the PAD. But later we're seeing the names AD-1 and AD-2.
But there is one thing for sure. There is a very strong import lobby at work. While we do have something like AAD that can be our Extended range SAM. there are attempts to make the Barak-8 follow on as the next ERSAM.
I do feel that we can go for
Exo-BMD 5000km AD-2 and AD-1
Exo-BMD 2000km PAD (later may be taken over by AD-1)
Endo-At-BMD AAD
ERSAM - AAD (including Cruise missile defense)
LRSAM - Barak-8
MRSAM - Akash-1/2 (The system can be improved and made lighter)
SRSAM - ?
Manpads - ?
All the above from AAD having capability to take cruise missiles as well with proper detective mechanism in place.

nash · Post by **nash** » 01 Jan 2012 22:01

AFAIK

PDV is for IRBM at exo-atmospheric level.

AD 1 & AD 2 is for ICBM one for endo and another for exo and this comes in phase-II of ABM

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 01 Jan 2012 22:38

PDV is for MRBM's at Exo-Atmospheric level. AD-1 and AD-2 under phase-II and supposed to be tested during 2011/12.
It would be nice if someone writes about the progress of stage-II of the BMD.
Awaiting for progress report on this one.
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/07/ex ... ndias.html

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Jan 2012 23:51

AD-1 and AD-2 looks like a twin stage missile with IIR guidance , looking at the scheme it looks like SM-3 class missile.

keshavchandra · Post by **keshavchandra** » 02 Jan 2012 14:17

MOD has initiated the AD for the NCR region under phase one. Under phase two MOD plans to cover the Mumbai, banglore and kalkata..

http://idrw.org/?p=6201

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 02 Jan 2012 14:24

Damn! JNU, NGOs, Lifafa Journos get to be first under the safety of an Indian ABM system. How Ironic.

vivek_v · Post by **vivek_v** » 02 Jan 2012 14:35

keshavchandra wrote:MOD has initiated the AD for the NCR region under phase one. Under phase two MOD plans to cover the Mumbai, banglore and kalkata..
http://idrw.org/?p=6201

Not fair....why no mention of Chennai

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 02 Jan 2012 15:12

vivek_v wrote:
keshavchandra wrote:MOD has initiated the AD for the NCR region under phase one. Under phase two MOD plans to cover the Mumbai, banglore and kalkata..
http://idrw.org/?p=6201
Not fair....why no mention of Chennai

Or Hyderabad where BDL is located, Bengaluru and Mumbai with soo much R&D and Financial base are understood, by why Kolkata before Hyderabad where BDL is located?

nash · Post by **nash** » 02 Jan 2012 15:55

Aditya_V wrote: Or Hyderabad where BDL is located, Bengaluru and Mumbai with soo much R&D and Financial base are understood, by why Kolkata before Hyderabad where BDL is located?

Because Kolkata is near to PRC.

Another thing is is it gone be test of both the layers or only at endo level.

If it is endo level only then PDV Test is still far away..

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 02 Jan 2012 16:09

Nash- Given the range of PRC missile, no part of Indian or even Ghauri missiles no part of India is out of range. Bengaluru is even further away than Hyderababd from PRC>

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 02 Jan 2012 16:20

Got a basic question - in busy metros, where would the ABM stuff (missiles, control center, radars) be placed? Where is the real estate? and how would they secure such sites, transport the missiles etc? (I believe much of this needs secrecy/camoflage)

Exactly what all things need to considered? Building elevations, proximity to airports, orientation/position, clutter from communication towers, friendly aircrafts?

I understand that only important assets within a city would get complete cover. But for a city like mumbai or Delhi, they might be located toward the center, forcing the ABM components to be deployed well within populated areas.

nash · Post by **nash** » 02 Jan 2012 16:51

Aditya_V wrote:Nash- Given the range of PRC missile, no part of Indian or even Ghauri missiles no part of India is out of range. Bengaluru is even further away than Hyderababd from PRC>

Not only distance which means less time for BM from PRC.

But also Kokata is among the major cities and most densely populated sities in the world.

Also having major educational institutes, Atomic research center,etc,etc...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Jan 2012 17:39

most indian cities do have some major military areas within the core now, engulfed by expansion. navynagar in mumbai, ASC areas in blr, army cantonment in delhi.....infra could be located within such areas ...

in my opinion Ahmedabad, vadodara and Surat are most at risk from a paki missile strike though....they will correctly calculate that various doggyraja/JNU types will rush to say its 'revenge for godhra' and just punishment for anti-sikular posture and gujjus deserve to get hit. sections of the media will support them and talk shows in evening would have themes like "would you exchange mumbai for ahmedabad" conducted by self-styled thought leaders and intellectuals.

aniket · Post by **aniket** » 02 Jan 2012 20:51

Kailash sir is absolutely right.Singha sir,I feel placing components of such systems in densely populated core areas could attract peeping eyes or even worse sabotage could happen.My best bet would be placing multiple batteries or systems on the outskirts in like a circle.

akula · Post by **akula** » 02 Jan 2012 20:57

Kailash sir, with all due respect, from a strategic & technical viewpoint, i disagree that the assets will be placed towards the center core of the area's to be protected. Reason being the incoming enemy thuds have to be destroyed well outside urban population/strategically vital installations, before they zero in nearer to the installations.
That is only possible, if assets are placed on the outer periphery, which will be earmarked based on calculations of interception,range etc.

of course, if we do have the liberty , there is no harm in placing a final tier near the centre of core, but outer rings have to be farthest to the core & as near to the entry point of a geographic demarcation.

keshavchandra · Post by **keshavchandra** » 02 Jan 2012 21:17

akula wrote:Kailash sir, with all due respect, from a strategic & technical viewpoint, i disagree that the assets will be placed towards the center core of the area's to be protected. Reason being the incoming enemy thuds have to be destroyed well outside urban population/strategically vital installations, before they zero in nearer to the installations.
That is only possible, if assets are placed on the outer periphery, which will be earmarked based on calculations of interception,range etc.

of course, if we do have the liberty , there is no harm in placing a final tier near the centre of core, but outer rings have to be farthest to the core & as near to the entry point of a geographic demarcation.

That will be an adhoc for the nuclear warfare. It will save the urban region even from nuclear wave and radiation. we need a AD umbrella for all major cities(population and defense establishment point of view).