Indian Army: News & Discussion

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Jan 2012 09:39

why exactly is the US media like nytimes and slate being used to comment on this issue...makes me think both khan and MMS are desperate to get a more compliant chief in place for some 'grand bargain' with the devils ...

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Jan 2012 10:04

ramana , i was just summarising what i saw in Times Now discussion with broad panel from Armed Forces , Babus and legal expert and yes they were aware of DOB and Birth Certificate factual data.

Two possible solutions was put forward.

Accept VKS DOB as it is and as per the backchannel solution put forward by VKS as some panelist claimed , if GOI accepts VKS factual DOB then he would resign the day GOI wants him to do , but ex-Cabinet Sec view was if GOI accepts factual DOB as per his birth certificate then there is no reason why VKS should resign , he said there cant be two DOB and it has to reconcile.

A more radical view was to create a CDS post and let VKS take over it as one of the ex-military officer in the panel had put forward.

All panelist agreed that this was not a 61/62 like situation and the next chief in line irrespective which way it goes is as competent person as VKS is.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 07 Jan 2012 11:35

Austin wrote:Ramana , I was watching the News Hour Debate yesterday and panelist were mix from Armed forces ie Army/Airforce , Bureaucrats ( ex Cabinet Sec ) and few others ....... the opinions were mix and were divided , the Airforce person Ahluwalia had a different pov and said IA chief should resign ..I saw Salman Kurshid saying rules are rules and the ex Cabinet Sec was saying its normal to have such age issue in different department and government takes the final call. One ex army officer was even suggesting it was an inter-army rivalry to get the chief ! Arun Jaitley says it should have been resolved behind closed doors. So in the end no matter who is right or wrong .... but its one big mess.

I hope they dont do a Vishnu Bhagwat like thing with VK Singh .....get RAW involved and play dirty games..... and then make it look like disobeying civilian authority.

vishnu bhagwat foolishly cut his own throat . Not much of a loss anyway.

Not possible to ever do a vishnu bhagwat again without deeply contemplating unpredictable reactions from the forces. They have been pushed too far with a lot of other things, apart from morons like lightweight omar going on about the Indian Army in cashmere.

Civilian authority does not apply in such matters.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Jan 2012 12:04

If we isolate all the unwanted noises from media , ex officer , babus etc and focus on GOI and VKS .... we would have realised that GOI has hardened its stands and Salman Kurshid latest statements like "Rules are Rules" clearly implies that GOI will not back down after the statement in parliament and recent statements in media.

If matter is not resolved behind the scenes and Pranab is working behind the scenes , if VKS goes to court and wins his case , then there would be spate of resignation from GOI from Defence Minister to Law Minister both will have to go...... its now turned into a high stake game for GOI

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 07 Jan 2012 12:28

Austin wrote:If we isolate all the unwanted noises from media , ex officer , babus etc and focus on GOI and VKS .... we would have realised that GOI has hardened its stands and Salman Kurshid latest statements like "Rules are Rules" clearly implies that GOI will not back down after the statement in parliament and recent statements in media.

If matter is not resolved behind the scenes and Pranab is working behind the scenes , if VKS goes to court and wins his case , then there would be spate of resignation from GOI from Defence Minister to Law Minister both will have to go...... its now turned into a high stake game for GOI

It takes a sense of duty and responsibility to resign. I cannot see any of the politicians demonstrating such an attitude. They are just plain bloody minded because they just have no case and they all well know it.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 07 Jan 2012 12:43

Hell will freeze over before any politician resigns on account of morality...the government is simply being egged over by the babus. In any such scenarios, it is the babus who are gainers.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Jan 2012 12:53

They will have to resign if Supreme court uphelds Army Chief DOB view , there is no option becuase GOI stood by its word in Parliament and even now more pro-active in media , look at Salman Kurshid interview to NDTV and he is the law minister

It would simply mean GOI had lied to the Parliament and they will have to resign .......babus will be transferred assuming those people are still there.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 07 Jan 2012 12:56

Austin wrote:They will have to resign if Supreme court uphelds Army Chief DOB view , there is no option becuase GOI stood by its word in Parliament and even now more pro-active in media , look at Salman Kurshid interview to NDTV and he is the law minister

It would simply mean GOI had lied to the Parliament and they will have to resign .......babus will be transferred assuming those people are still there.

As per existing and undisputed documents, the GOI did lie in parliament and that too saint anthony onlee.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Jan 2012 13:06

chetak wrote:As per existing and undisputed documents, the GOI did lie in parliament and that too saint anthony onlee.

There are many who believe that is the case but thats upto the Supreme Court to take a view based on facts , most certainly the GOI is not changing its view and the army chief stated he has not yet decided to approach the court.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 07 Jan 2012 13:17

How independent is the Supreme court from the executive branch in India? In the US it can tell the President and Congress to eff off. What about in India

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 07 Jan 2012 13:24

tejas wrote:How independent is the Supreme court from the executive branch in India? In the US it can tell the President and Congress to eff off. What about in India

They are pretty independent here too.

They also can tell the US president and the US congress (not the Indian congress!!) to eff off.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Jan 2012 13:26

tejas wrote:How independent is the Supreme court from the executive branch in India? In the US it can tell the President and Congress to eff off. What about in India

They are very independent and forms one of the key pillar according to constitution of india.

I dont know how US works so cant say.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 07 Jan 2012 13:52

Thanks for the response gentlemen. I hope the Supreme Court can tell the emperor(s) they are sans clothes. BTW Austin in Umrikah the Supreme Court justices are appointed for life. They are about as independent theoretically and practically as one can get. IMHO without an independent judiciary true democracy is not possible.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 07 Jan 2012 14:56

All that independent nonsense is true only when two political parties are contesting a case. In all other situations, one can consider the Supreme Court to be as independent as a caged lion..
JMO

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 07 Jan 2012 14:57

Singha wrote:why exactly is the US media like nytimes and slate being used to comment on this issue...makes me think both khan and MMS are desperate to get a more compliant chief in place for some 'grand bargain' with the devils ...

Yeah VKS put his foot down on any compromise on J&K did he not? If he is made to go early will the next one also do the same or will he sell out to the "politician" who has his own reasons?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Jan 2012 17:05

I think NYT or any American media or other wise just needs needs news and they would just print those stuff , eventually if the issue persists or escalates you will find many global media commenting on it.

I dont think this is some CT or has any thing to do with Kashmir angle etc , JMT

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Jan 2012 23:49

I think the image tells why UPA is so against the Chief.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Jan 2012 23:55

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 08 Jan 2012 00:09

Army Chief VKS does not need a separate Billa Number 786 (Amitabh's Deewar fame). No wonder a person like him should be allowed to fight for his honor.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Jan 2012 00:39

He looks very confident and is sure of himself. UPA doesnt have time for such people.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 08 Jan 2012 06:39

NDA cadet collapses during training, dies

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 08 Jan 2012 07:47

aaak thoo to how far unnithan has fallen. What a hit job.

and to think he was a visitor to BR long ago.

What does one not do to climb the ladder?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 08 Jan 2012 09:52

Rahul M wrote:???

What is the problem saar?

Holy thread on right wrist or clenched left fist?

Body language is as in your face and "Indian Army Chief" as can possibly be.

The kangressi foreign policy of "kabhi pussy kabhi bum, tara rum pum pum" is constrained because of outstanding citizens like VKS.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 08 Jan 2012 11:55

Austin wrote:

Accept VKS DOB as it is and as per the backchannel solution put forward by VKS as some panelist claimed , if GOI accepts VKS factual DOB then he would resign the day GOI wants him to do , but ex-Cabinet Sec view was if GOI accepts factual DOB as per his birth certificate then there is no reason why VKS should resign , he said there cant be two DOB and it has to reconcile.

A more radical view was to create a CDS post and let VKS take over it as one of the ex-military officer in the panel had put forward.

All panelist agreed that this was not a 61/62 like situation and the next chief in line irrespective which way it goes is as competent person as VKS is.

The question is there are two DOB recorded by different Branches of Army. One, which is record keeper, says it is 1951 and is supported by Matriculation Certificate, which happens to be the only approved certificate. Municipality Birth Certificate is another one , but given the state of record keeping , it is less accepted. VKS was born in a Military hospital and that records DOB as 1951.

Another branch , which is responsible for giving transfers and promotions , recorded DOB as 1950. It is stated that all previous promotions are given on the basis of 1951 and the issue resurfaced in 2005 only when promotion to Major Gen (?) was to be given and he is stated to have accepted his DOB as 1950. This record is based on candidate's application to UPSC. Now UPSC had already accepted his Matriculation record. Why it was not referred to UPSC? The reason is simple. They would have affirmed 1951 having been accepted by them. What was the report of Special branch during verification of antecedents and character prior to joining? Why is that not referred to by anyone? Why reconciliation request of AG branch was not responded to and DOB reconciled?

VKS had raised this issue long back, in the beginning of his career and the matter was apparently stood resolved till it was dug again, for whatever reason. The question is not that of correcting DOB as is stated and confused often but which one to accept now and on what basis when two dates are accepted by the govt.Should the matriculation or Birth certificate be accepted or candidates assertion in application form , not backed by any prior document otherwise.Can ID Card, ACR or MS records based on DOB in application form the basis for accepting DOB?

Line of succession is neither the issue here nor is it sacrosanct. Next to the purported successor (KTP) in line is equally competent. The immediate successor is a distant relative of (army grapevine),you know who, though competent otherwise and is likely to give wrong signal to High officials that unless you are politically connected or related you would not be considered. There is this grouse already, talk to any army insider all the way up to Gen rank officers.

If VKS stand on DOB is accepted , there is no reason that he should resign. Even if it is not accepted there is no need to resign.He should go to SC to decide and let the decision come even after his retirement. INC would have egg on its face. In fact question of honour is being raised by dubious and dishonorable people just to save the face of INC.

This issue was dug up by MS branch by Military Secy Avadhesh Prakash who was in cahoots with DK a relative of MMS and everyone knows the outcome of court marshal of AP initiated by VKS in Sukhna Land Scam. Everyone , with whom I spoke, told VKS is die hard honest and old school and resent such machinations.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Jan 2012 12:12

chaanakya ,As a last resort If VKS feel been given an unfair deal by the GOI and if the GOI is in no mood to budge , he has all the right to approach the Supreme Court for his grievance redressal , Rest assured I think the court will give him a fair deal.

Ofcourse many would complain if the Chief approaches the court that this is has never happened before but there is always a first time for every thing you do.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 08 Jan 2012 12:51

Surya wrote:aaak thoo to how far unnithan has fallen. What a hit job.

and to think he was a visitor to BR long ago.

What does one not do to climb the ladder?

Which article?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 08 Jan 2012 13:30

on Gen VKS.

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 08 Jan 2012 14:04

rohitvats wrote:
Surya wrote:aaak thoo to how far unnithan has fallen. What a hit job.

and to think he was a visitor to BR long ago.

What does one not do to climb the ladder?
Which article?

This one i suppose:

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/age- ... 67533.html

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 08 Jan 2012 15:39

^^^Thanks. What a b@stard of an article...that article is truly self before service - Self as in brownie points with political masters for unnithan and service being journalistic honesty. And this is second article IIRC on the topic from him....he is truly HIS MASTER'S VOICE.....

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Jan 2012 16:14

Rohit if i were to take the logic and push it forward , in the India Today article ( print edition ) , Air Chief Fali Homi Major think he should resign and then move to court and seek legal remedy , Gen VN Sharma says its strictly an issue between Chief and MOD , in the same article Maj Gen Surjit Singh has some other opinion.

If you watch the news channel in any channel a broad range of panelist and legal expert has a different opinion , some supporting the Chief while other having some mixed opinion.

So there is no uniform opinion , the GOI and the Attorney General feels he should resign , the Chief feels other wise.

There are no conspiracy against the chief is what i feel , it is a matter of perception based on what one takes it , according to Sandeep article the last 3 promotion is based on 1950 date.

Either ways if the Chief feels he has been dealt with unjustly by GOI , he can always go to the court and seek legal recourse specially when he feels there evidence will work in his favour.

The other option is for GOI to accept the 1951 date and just close the matter.

We will see how it shapes up , both parties have their own views and incase of no accpetable solution is found the Chief might go to the court which he has stated he has not decided upon.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 08 Jan 2012 16:27

Austin wrote:<SNIP>There are no conspiracy against the chief is what i feel , it is a matter of perception based on what one takes it , according to Sandeep article the last 3 promotion is based on 1950 date. <SNIP>

It does not matter what you feel or I feel or my dog feels - what matters is the tone of the article and the way it has been written. The heading of the article "Self before Service" speaks volumes about what is intended to be conveyed and the mentality of the author. That is what I have problem with. The last article on this DOB issue also had similar noises. So, I stick to my opinion about the article and author - it is bloody hit-job on Chief and IA. And unnithan comes across more as a hit-man than a journalists presenting facts and analysis. He is acting as HMV.It is BS. Pure and simple.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 08 Jan 2012 17:37

HAHAHAHAHAH! I know you will yell at me now. But, a question from one in authority "really? Wasn't he leading his men till date with two DOB's?"

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 08 Jan 2012 17:58

^^^IMO - this case, if and when it goes to court, will see skeletons tumbling out of Military Secretary's closet. if some want to think that it is only happenstance that has got VKS vs GoI (on DoB) this far, then they would be sadly mistaken.
the lines of succession are worked out many years ahead, and officers not in favour, due to reasons well known within top circles, are side stepped in arbitrary fashion. one well known reason is to prevent officers other than from fighting arms from becoming COAS. subtle actions like scheduling of selection board, deferring someone's selection board or placing a report under observation can do the trick. only that in this instance the trick was crude and got out of hand due to events beyond the control of powers that were.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 08 Jan 2012 18:08

I told him "Sir, take a rubber, erase the last digit, add the new digit. Bingo! Viola!, the problem is solved. Then issue a letter to various dept with effect. Then you can get rid of him as he himself is saying, isn't it?"

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 08 Jan 2012 19:52

just see how the article has been written and you can see its a hit job.

first of all with all the problems - they made this a cover story.

then see the start of it (and I hate to give that piece of shit any more hits -)

he jets around in a Embraer

he has a fleet of ambassadors yada yada

Arey hazaar lowly political rat bags have better facilities and this is what you lead in.
you effing @@$$$$@%$%$

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Jan 2012 20:54

Austin, Once he resigns they will say he accepted. And his victory in SC will be a useless thunderbolt for they would have removed him. That is the primary goal.

Surya, My thoughts too.
- They painted the IA chief as a warlord just as the Curzon gang painted Kitchener in 1905.

-The Mil Secy was created then. Read the history.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Jan 2012 21:02

Rohit hit man or not only time will tell and there is just 4 months to go .... so lets not jump to any conclusion , thats the risk of the job Sandeep or any jurnos carry , if some one does not agrees with him he can easily end up on the wrong side or be called lifafa etc cant help .......risk of the job.

But leaving them aside , i keep saying this to you there are no uniform view even with ex service men on this issue , FH Major says he should resign , AS Ahulwalia the ex Air Marshal says no matter what he should not approach the court , there are few other officer who strong feel he should defend his word and should approach the court for resolution.

The ex Cabinet Sec who came in times now mentioned during his tenure he saw 20 such cases regarding age and tenure of service and in all cases the government view was final view. He was also of the view that if DOB was 51 then he should not resign and continue with his tenure.

Any ways the GOI decision are not carved in stone and no one can force VKS to resign nor is he in any way a helpless man. If he strongly feels about his DOB issue and GOI does not address it to his satisfaction then he can approach the court.

As long as Govt decision can be challenged its not EOD for VKS no matter which way it goes.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Jan 2012 21:04

ramana wrote:Austin, Once he resigns they will say he accepted. And his victory in SC will be a useless thunderbolt for they would have removed him. That is the primary goal.

Can any one force him to resign in the first place ? dont you think he might be thinking along the same lines or would have some smart advocate who can give him best possible legal advice.

He is free to approach the court if he wishes to do so and I am sure he will if he is standing his ground till now and there are many ex officers and generals who feel he should do so.

If this was a simple open and close case we would have seen a resolution long time back.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 08 Jan 2012 21:16

Ramana exactly - in another place a warlord or a druglord can be substituted and it will not be out of place

thats the risk of the job Sandeep or any jurnos carry , if some one does not agrees with him he can easily end up on the wrong side or be called lifafa etc cant help .......risk of the job.

lets not lump unnithan with other journalists - he chose to break away from the pack .

There are many ways Unnithan could have been a decent journalist. But he had already committed himself with an earlier article which you true to form posted right away - hot of the presses

This one replete with cover story, and the vomit inducing first para - conveys his intention and that of his masters.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 08 Jan 2012 21:25

Ramanaji, pardon me, but I am not able to understand this reference to 1905 case during British colonial rule (which may have been an internal fight between the British rulers of India). Based on the description of events (google threw up NYTIMES, Indianetzone, etc) it was Curzon who resigned and left. The military member was replaced by a "military supply member". How is all this relevant today?