Are foreign countries becoming more unsafe for Indians?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Jan 2012 08:57

The thread is for discussion of experiences and perspectives. Perhaps Indians who have lived abroad for decades may be able to contribute usefully. I will start with some personal perspectives.

My grandfather travelled by sea to Europe, the UK thence to the US (since world war 1 started when he was in England). travelled from east to west across the US and returned to India via japan between 1913 and 1915 or so. He maintained copious technical notes as a chemical engineer, but makes no mention of lack of personal safety or racism. He did suffer frostbite in London in the process of losing an injudicious bet about being able to travel open air on a bus without gloves in the winter cold.

My father travelled to the USA by ship in 1945 and lived there for several years but forfeited the option of settling there - which was what most of his friends also decided. Only a few settled in the US then IIRC. My father had nothing but pleasant memories. There was never any mention of lack of personal safety.

The next generation from my family and my friends and peers went abroad in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s. The early emigrants to the USA in the 1960s and 1970s never ever reported racism/lack of safety. The US was really the greatest country in the world then. It was fresh and forward looking and discrimination seemed absent to my peers. But by the 70s and 80s New York had become a place where anyone could be mugged. You did not have to be Indian to be mugged, it was just unsafe back then in some areas. Britain actually took in a lot of people of Indian origin from Uganda in the 70s . I saw some racism in Britain in the eighties. There used to be random attack like stone throwing or firebomb throwing into houss of "Asians" in the 80s. By the 80s many Indians already had a "chip on the shoulder" feeling in Britain. A Pakistani origin consultant I worked for was quite open about these attitudes and a very nice elderly English surgeon who was my boss was happy to hear I was leaving and remarked "You will be "used" here"

A lot more Indians are travelling abroad today, both as tourists and as students. There are a lot more wealthy Indians who are spending today. In the old days I think Indians were every careful to try and adopt to local language and habits as much as possible and tried to fade into the background. That cannot be expected from every traveller. It is up to the host country to ensure the safety of visitors and temporary foreign residents. But the number of cases of random violence against Indians that I see in the media is high. We know that the treatment of Indian labourer has rarely been good in Saudi Arabia. But Britain, Australia, the USA and China are all nations in which I am reading about increased violence against Indians.

Is this "natural"? It is because Indian who are fresh off the boat don't know how to dress, behave and speak as I have heard some apologetic Indians say? Or is it just plain hooliganism and failure of civil society and law and order enforcement?

Should Indians be issuing country specific guidelines about how to dress and behave in each country and how to recognize racism, what areas to avoid and how to deal with people and get help in specific foreign countries? I am the third generation of people in my family to have travelled/lived abroad. Not once did I see a guideline about what to expect. Perhaps it was unnecessary in those days, but I believe FAQs and advisories for each country are essential.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 09 Jan 2012 09:41

Indian presence in foreign land in first half of 20th cetury was miniscule so there were very few or no incidents happened/not reported because of little presece of media. Regarding racism, as far as india is concerned was rampant in India itself, when our freedom fighters were hanged, beaten to death or just massacred as the case in Jalianwala baug. Influential industrialists and nationalists were treated like scumbags.

Now more indians are either working or studying in white countries. Whites have changed and after losing maximum population 3-5 crores in 1st and 2nd world wars dont indulge in open racist activities. The ill treatment of indians rampantly reported in media, is perhaps not because of racism but sheer jealousy of well-to-do Indians by street goons in white countries. IMHO.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Jan 2012 09:47

US immigration picked up only after 1968 reforms. Before that the quota was 150 visas after WWII.

One question: Is India becoming unsafe for Indians too?

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 09 Jan 2012 10:00

I believe India has also improved a lot. People of some castes were treated like scumbags till 1970s. and in rural areas 1980s and 90s.. where education and industries have pentetrated in rural areas, things have changed to a great extent. In a country with increasing population density, there is a indirect security to everyone in general.

Also Now desi tourists are visiting Kashmir more often than in 80s and 90s, for example. i.e., desis are safer in des.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 09 Jan 2012 10:34

In my family we have three goris who have married to my cousins/relatives and a gora married one of my aunts. These gora families like to dress/eat like indians do in their own countries. One british gora gentleman and his kids wear dhotis at home ! My gori aunties and bhabhis wear saarees and follow dharmic traditions! In my opinion, general gori public does not carry arrogance of being gora. But some section of populace in these countries attack anyone who are well-to-do or even well behaved. they do so in our countries. At one place in Gujarat, we had to ask a German to leave India because he misbehaved with our cook. Even some CEOs/high office bearers of Gora origins have been found passing derogatory remarks about our country and people in our own land. But such incidents are very few and generlization looks dicey.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 09 Jan 2012 14:44

racism is in two varietes - hardcore intellectual/spiritual racism - where people have fundamental beliefs about racial variance and relative rankings and a more superficial/emotional variety. the former type is concentrated in a few 'right wing ideologues' and their acolytes. the latter is a more widespread feature based on ignorance and fear of the unknown. both types remain 'under control' under normal circumstances, but the former type remains largely hidden. the latter type has complex drivers at the macro and micro level - quite often spurred on by economic distress or the perception of threat to the 'core economic security' through the unknown external presence. in times of recession, racism increases. in times of prosperity it recedes.

depending on the phase of the cycle in which a person encounters these attitudes their experiences may be benign or horrendous. also the relative social and 'civilisational' power balance plays a part. up till recently, an westerner would have automatically assumed that they were superior in all respects to an asian - largely a colonial hangover, but rapidly changing. the anglo saxon world is adjusting to this new reality.

a classic example of the desire to blame all your woes (economic, political, societal...) on the 'other' is the victimisation of jews in the third reich.

are things getting worse for indians? at a macro level - no, its getting much better. at a micro level - in some parts of the world, yes.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Jan 2012 17:54

ramana wrote:US immigration picked up only after 1968 reforms. Before that the quota was 150 visas after WWII.

One question: Is India becoming unsafe for Indians too?

I know what is required for security in India. What can I find out about security abroad to tell a young person going somewhere for the first time? , Your equal-equal/ torn shirt-open fly question does not make phoren any safer. "Oh India itself is not safe so why worry about places outside India" is unhelpful from the point of view of security of Indians abroad.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Jan 2012 18:02

For those who might not have guessed - the spark for starting this topic was two Indians shot dead - one in Canada and one in the UK. the UK one was particularly sad and although the British government seems to have gone out of its way to be helpful - they are themselves shocked by he random brutality... And one more Indian has gone missing today in the area.

The killer called himself "psycho" and might have committed random murder as part of an initiation rite to show that he is tough enough.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ds-newsxml

Tears, flowers and emotional tributes: Grieving friends and relatives gather for the funeral of shot Indian student Anuj Bidve

Hundreds of grieving friends and relatives of an Indian student who was gunned down on Boxing Day gathered for his funeral in western India.

Anuj Bidve, 23, was shot in the head at point-blank range as he walked along Ordsall Lane in Salford with friends.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z1ixoKkagv

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Jan 2012 18:03

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 419730.cms

PM offers safety net for overseas Indians

JAIPUR: Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on Sunday shared with the Indian diaspora a slew of measures that his government has initiated to combat their growing vulnerability in times of global economic slowdown.

"Many of you are experiencing first-hand the impact of global economic slowdown. Employment opportunities have declined, there is greater protectionism and attitude towards migration has hardened. There is growing social intolerance even in open societies," said the prime minister. He was addressing nearly 1,000 non-resident Indians at the inaugural function of Pravasi Bharatiya Diwas at Birla Auditorium here on Sunday.

Singh's remarks came a day after the slain Indian student Anuj Bidve's body was consigned to flames in Pune. Twentythree-year-old Bidve was shot dead by a 20-year-old British man on December 25 in what police said was a case of hate crime.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Jan 2012 18:07

As I see it - as hitherto "rich" nations become poorer and Indians grow wealthier and start moving, there will be more hate crimes. It is already becoming apparent and I am sure that even if we ignore past events (such as the Oz attacks) this thread will illustrate what is being reported in India about the experiences of Indians travelling abroad.

I have been reading but ignoring reports, but this last brutal murder seemed like a wake up call.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 09 Jan 2012 18:21

i think bidve is the victim of a real psychopath, however my suspicion is that it was partially motivated by his colour - and the presumption that he may have been a pakistani/jehadi. there are no reports of any obvious racial element to the crime, but he may have been picked as a soft target. manchester has over the past few years become notorious for drug related gun crimes and criminal gangs who seek to emulate those from LA (where murder is part of the initiation ritual)

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Jan 2012 18:56

Lalmohan wrote:i think bidve is the victim of a real psychopath, however my suspicion is that it was partially motivated by his colour - and the presumption that he may have been a pakistani/jehadi. there are no reports of any obvious racial element to the crime, but he may have been picked as a soft target. manchester has over the past few years become notorious for drug related gun crimes and criminal gangs who seek to emulate those from LA (where murder is part of the initiation ritual)

Lalmohan - sitting in India and observing the twin facts of increasing wealth and a yearning for phoren degrees as part of an overall flood of young people looking for college education, there are fly-by-night universities setting up in India as well as iffy foreign "universities" who are attracting Indians. Most of these universities would be unheard of in their own countries. So theer is a flood of young Indian going abroad, paying good money for some kind of education. Some of them are becoming statistics like Bidve.

I definitely sense increasing intolerance in societies that I thought were safe. I would rate the US as pretty safe right now. But Europe is sinking as is oz. The US has probably always been more tolerant of diversity than Europe - but when the chips are down one can never tell. Better to anticipate and arm oneself with information.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 09 Jan 2012 19:07

the US has far higher crime rates that most parts of europe - particularly murder. but the US is far more ghettoised and there are exclusion zones where people of a certain class do not need to go - and so not experience crime

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 09 Jan 2012 19:23

There has been an increase in crime in the Middle East. This is seen almost everywhere in the Middle East. In UAE's relatively calm Emirates of Ajman and Sharjah, there has been a spate of robberies,muggings and theft, and occasionally,homicides along with rape or robbery.A large percentage of the targets are expatriates and women living alone.The trend is not showing a downslide, and it appears that despite the best efforts of the Police,things are tending to spin out of control.This was not so ten years ago, when UAE was considered to be the safest and calmest region of the Middle East.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 09 Jan 2012 19:26

isnt "islamic justice" meant to deter all manner of crime? or are the upholders of the law indulging in the dark side?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Jan 2012 19:37

Lalmohan wrote:the US has far higher crime rates that most parts of europe - particularly murder. but the US is far more ghettoised and there are exclusion zones where people of a certain class do not need to go - and so not experience crime

Lalmullah I will need 3 lifetimes to write all the books I want to write - but I am cooking about two in my mind. A third came to my mind but I doubt if I will do it. The third book would be a fictional account of a failing USA, when the 200 million small arms on the loose in the US are turned against other nations or against other Americans.

If our karma is good we lead our lives in a stable society. But history says all societies sink and fail. So I would wonder how the US might fail and fall - maybe decades/centuries from now. Only a few civilizations have survived at the summit more than a few centuries . Increasing intolerance, mediocrity, infighting and failure of central law seem to be typical modes of civilizational failure.

AnantD · Post by **AnantD** » 09 Jan 2012 19:37

Shiv, I have a similar situation to you, 3rd gen foreign travel, only difference is I have stayed here where you went back to desh. I will probably return to desh one day too for good after many years.

Reading Murugan and Lalmohans remarks above, these are all true. I wanted to add one observation that helped me a lot. Took me about 10 years to realize!

1. Leaving India when I was 22 with no guidance whatsoever from anyone who had been abroad, I was quite naive. My liberal American friends always told me about "cultural shock", and I refused to acknowledge it, although there definitely was. But being mentally prepared for differences, I did not really feel much.

2. I realized down the line after about 10 years or so, that leaving color, language, accent end environment aside, the people in the western countries were just like the people in India. I could find 1:1 comparisons, some quite odd!! Once understood, things got easier. Same rules applied to dealing with them and what was to be expected in response.

As far as safety is concerned, once you accept 2 above, you are fine. Same issues of jealousy, unwritten rules, avoiding trouble and bad neighbourhoods etc.

One difference between Hindu/Indian and Western culture is there is a little more mental sickness and gun violence in the west, not counting jihad's, insurgencies etc.

What I find is that India of the previous and earlier generation ( I am now the previous gen) were much better at adapting to different environments. This generation, <35 years of age, is more like the American generation of the 70s and 80's, and you can imagine how they fared in other cultures/environments (India being one such case) where their expectations were not not met.

Post 911, the American "ganwar" has started using his half baked knowledge of the east to bring out his fears. Just a lack of education.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Jan 2012 20:10

AnantD wrote: As far as safety is concerned, once you accept 2 above, you are fine. Same issues of jealousy, unwritten rules, avoiding trouble and bad neighbourhoods etc.

This is where the trouble is and not all the trouble can be blamed on the foreign nations whom i am accusing of becoming more violent and intolerant. (Let me not enter into deep pisko about why)

I believe that indians should be given guidelines (available online or in booklets in various languages) about different countries of the world. Which cities and areas are friendly. Where you can get Indian food. Where you will get ripped off. Where you can go safely. Where you must not go etc.

I am not saying that GoI should do this, or NRIs should do this or xyz should do this. I am saying that this is desirable - a sort of Hindustani hitch hikers guide to the world. Just throwing the idea up in the air. That's all.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 09 Jan 2012 20:16

Lalmohan wrote:the US has far higher crime rates that most parts of europe - particularly murder. but the US is far more ghettoised and there are exclusion zones where people of a certain class do not need to go - and so not experience crime

Compared to India , I get to see a far greater number of gun shot injury and stabbed wound patients in US . But their is no particular racial predilection . Crime rates in US are even higher than large parts of India , (especially in GUJ which has extremely low crime) so if one follows the world media we might incorrectly deem US unsafe .It is particularly true in case of Indian media. A kid from AP was shot down in a bar a few months ago. (Pasadena IIRC) . And Indian media began to look at a racial angle. But strictly speaking , such shoot outs are not at all uncommon in the US. They affect everyone , not just Indians .

w.r.t racism , - The silicon valley types are unlikely to face racism all that often . Racism usually exists in the hill billy types .

w.r.t sub standard foreign colleges making money from Yindian students - IMHO that reflects a problem in Yindia than a problem in the foreign country. It shows that a section of the Indian population is willing risk everything for a foreign degree which may well be worthless after all . The goras saw an opportunity and began milking the cash cow - country which has the highest savings rate in the world . IMHO FOREIGN CONSULATES IN India should be BANNED from being a marketing wing of these colleges. All these 'educational fairs' which seek bakras amongst Indian should be CATEGORICALLY BANNED .

The only foreign country that can offer some sort of meaningful education to Indian students is the US . And some technical colleges in Germany and France. Most places in UK are nothing great. Asstralia is good for nothing . Why would Indian students chose a country with no Industry to get an engineering degree ? Our government needs to ensure that students only go in quality foreign Instis . Rest should be banned from having agents in India . And Indian students should be banned from getting foreign exchange to pay for such sub standard instis .

Besides these the standards in Indian educational instis should improve drastically .

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Jan 2012 20:26

From August 2011
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_in ... ad_1575772

Indians under fire abroad
Attacks against Indians abroad has been steadily increasing according to the ministry of overseas Indian affairs. Over the past few years they have faced increasing incidents of violence, leaving them either seriously injured, or dead.

According to figures submitted in Parliament by the minister for overseas Indian affairs, Vyalar Ravi, 160 Indians were either killed or injured in attacks abroad. This is a massive 78% jump from 2009.

“Indian nationals abroad are warned by post to maintain caution and be vigilant in their general activities to avoid untoward incidents. Consulate offcials are sent to the place of incident to liaise with local authorities, the Indian community, and render all possible assistance,” Ravi told Parliament last week.

Indians in Australia have faced the worst attacks which have jumped up significantly since 2009. In 2008 11 Indians were either killed or injured. This jumped up almost five fold to 52 Indians the next year and now a record 103 attacks in 2010.

“The issue of attacks on Indians in Australia has been taken up at the highest level by the Government of India. At the ministerial level as well as through the High Commission and its consulates in Australia. It has been conveyed to the Australian government that it was their responsibility to ensure the well being and security of all Indians in Australia,” Ravi said.

The external affairs ministry has also stepped in and asked the “Indian high commissioner and consul general in Australia to remain in regular touch with the Australian authorities to protect Indians.

Philippines is also a major worry for the New Delhi as statistics show 27 Indians were either killed or injured in 2008; 31 in 2009, and 30 in 2010.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 09 Jan 2012 20:29

>>Philippines is also a major worry for the New Delhi as statistics show 27 Indians were either killed or injured in 2008; 31 in 2009, and 30 in 2010.

Who goes to philippines ? Its even poorer than most of India .

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Jan 2012 20:40

gakakkad wrote: Who goes to philippines ? Its even poorer than most of India .

They are trying to get richer, so casinos and sex tourism seem to be important attractions.

member_22286 · Post by **member_22286** » 09 Jan 2012 20:43

shiv wrote:
gakakkad wrote: Who goes to philippines ? Its even poorer than most of India .
They are trying to get richer, so casinos and sex tourism seem to be important attractions.

Sir,From what I can gather Sardars are generally into moneylending business there and we know the hazhards of the moneylending business.If we can identify the individual identities of the victims we might get an idea of the cause of this

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 09 Jan 2012 21:14

lots of indian students attend the asian business school in manila
lets be careful of the generalisations

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Jan 2012 22:55

In mid 80s the target population in US was Asian specifically Japanese due to loss of the jobs. A Vietnamese youngster got killed brutally by a mob mistaking him for Japanese. Those days the politicians from Congressman upwards used ot blame the japanese for the auto industry woes when it was clear that they made bad products aka unsafe gas guzzlers and the US consumer was forced to buy imported cars to stretch their dollars.

In the current economically distressed West, it doesn't help when even the US President scape goat India in the same breath as China as an excuse for their lack of economic policy to revive the post crash economy.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 09 Jan 2012 23:19

shiv wrote:The third book would be a fictional account of a failing USA, when the 200 million small arms on the loose in the US are turned against other nations or against other Americans.

The second amendment is the ultimate test of a democratic polity, where the right to bear arms and form militias so that it is not the mai baap all powerful government as the only party able to bear arms and hence threaten. It is the ultimate level of trust in a population or in the case of the US a born mistrust of government. The rights of the federal government stem from those "delegated" by its constituent parts. Sovereignty rests in the federal structure only so far in areas explicitly thus delegated. Otherwise, it is the states that are sovereign and in actual polity there is a high degree of sentiment that each individual is sovereign. In fact the US goes further on the issue of arms. The territorial army is "prohibited" from deployment within the territory of the US by the executive, it can summon only the Navy/Marines.

The concepts in the US are the "direct" opposite of ones enshrined in the colonial derived Indian constitution. In that the states are not sovereign but only administrative parts, it retains its unitary core. The center keeps a tight control of all events in the state, through article 200. Every Indian Khatriya family had arms with them, until the British disarmed them and this process was only complete after the Indian state was born.

Caveat Civis.

Jaspreet · Post by **Jaspreet** » 09 Jan 2012 23:35

I'm replying from work, so don't have much time, but here's the outline of my reply.
Shiv's conclusion - based on anecdotes.
Counter example: treatment of Sikhs when they wanted to settle in Canada in 1900s and in California.
Canada imposed fees on immigrants (Chinese, Japanese, Indians), they couldn't bring spouses.
Race riots in England in the past. "Paki" a known bad word for Indians.

Situation seems to be better now. People more enlightened.

Ravi Karumanchiri · Post by **Ravi Karumanchiri** » 10 Jan 2012 00:01

subodh · Post by **subodh** » 10 Jan 2012 00:29

ShauryaT

Excellent post, the Bill of Rights is an amazing document in intent and for the most part - in content.

Very minor nitpik - Posse Comitatus does not preclude the deployment of the Army, it basically makes sure any such deployment is effectively done via an act of Congress (or in line with the Constitution).

Also - The Navy and Marines are part of the setup via a long standing Defense Department decree that essentially 'signed' these two arms on to the Act.

The Coast Guard is exempt.

The origin of Posse Comitatus are pretty nasty and interesting (basically segregationists passed this law to keep DC out of their states - to prevent the federal govt from stopping crimes against blacks).

Also - Eisenhower figured out to get around the Act when it came to sending federal soldiers into Little Rock, Ar.

sorry, OT

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 10 Jan 2012 02:30

If one notices, Indians rarely exceed 1% of the total pop of any foreign nation. So, immigration patterns worldwide do follow some kind of consensus coming from Western opinion of Indians, their culture and behavior.

Violent reactions to the stimulus of Indian immigration from elements in the host society follow the dripping tap vs cracked pipe hypothesis, i.e. the dripping tap is always going to invite more short term remedial measures (reactions) as compared to a cracked pipe (where the only reaction is going to be helplessness).

Having said that, I do believe that it would be pointless for Indians to immigrate anywhere else except for North America, Africa and Central Asia till the end of the economic slump.

BijuShet · Post by **BijuShet** » 10 Jan 2012 03:29

Of late a lot of Indian homes in the US are being targetted for the 22K gold jewellery that Indians are reputed to gather as wealth at home. I have 2 separate 1st person accounts from very close family friends whose homes were burgled in the last 2 years and both were in different states. There are more cases being reported and 2nd person stories discussed among friends. A lot of Indians are being targetted because the overall economic situation is bad and prices of gold are going through the roof. Many Indians are now storing their gold in bank lockers for safety sake. This is sign of the times and who knows if this trend will grow.

Indian families usually buy houses in good neighborhoods and thus tend to stay is safer parts but the younger lot coming from India for study/etc tend to stay in more unsafe but closer to college or party places type of neighborhoods. They are the ones we hear about as they become easy prey to muggers etc. Previously poor graduate students stayed indoors and spent weekends in the college labs or watching desi movies at home. The new gen Indian students are out partying like their local peers and walking in downtown areas late at night. They are studying on their parents dime and can afford most of the luxuries of life and also there are simply more of them now than any time in the past. Overall more visible Indian presence now hence more likely to be victims as well statistically.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Jan 2012 06:01

Indian immigrants in other countries is one thing. They are going for work other economic/political reasons. Their behavior is always going to be accomodative of the customs of the local culture. That has been the norm. But when you have temporary visitors going abroad from days to a year or two on temporary assignments, their dress, language and behavior will be different, and they are abroad in far larger numbers, making them stand out.

These are typically called "fresh off the boat" Indians. (The expression is a perfect example of fractal recursivity). They do not necessarily get sympathy from locals because they can be seen as unruly, dirty, noisy, uninformed. They also have few local contacts and are probably the most vulnerable.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Jan 2012 06:14

ShauryaT wrote:The second amendment is the ultimate test of a democratic polity, where the right to bear arms and form militias so that it is not the mai baap all powerful government as the only party able to bear arms and hence threaten. It is the ultimate level of trust in a population or in the case of the US a born mistrust of government. The rights of the federal government stem from those "delegated" by its constituent parts. Sovereignty rests in the federal structure only so far in areas explicitly thus delegated.

Shaurya, Pakistan has rules similar to this. What works and what does not work is a function of karma and time. If the US fails it will definitely be 200 times more dangerous than Pakistan. But that is not the point. Even if the US heads towards "failure" that means more poverty and deprivation the federal structure will have to make itself that much stronger (acquire more power) to keep law and order. Or else you get a Pakistan like situation. The fallout of such a situation may be a stronger and more intrusive US government that is watching its own citizens and is less capable of looking out for visitors/temporary residents.

To some extent these changes have actually occurred post 9-11.

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 10 Jan 2012 09:58

There are couple of points to make. One is discrimination. The other is safety. When Indians are trying to live, work and prosper in a country that is not theirs, it is common and usual to face discrimination. Indian Students, as they are not considered to be immigrants, should not face discrimination. Also, most schools are frequented by educated and liberal people, so there is less discrimination. I have lived and worked in Germany (8 years), UK (2 years) and spent time in Poland (married to Polish nationals). Everywhere there was discrimination of some sort at work and while getting a place to stay. However, the intensity differed from country to country as their culture was different. Safety is a complete different matter. Germany those days was very safe. Alas, it is no longer so. In UK, I lived in Manchester. At night it could be risky to go out to certain areas of the town. I can understand very well the case of Bidve, he may have wandered unknowingly into a dangerous area. I am sure there are places in Mumbai and Delhi, that you would not advise an European visitor to venture into. From 1987, I am living in the US. I can say that I have found the least amount of discrimination here. Safety wise too, in my opinion, the US is better. Here you may be mugged or robbed but very rarely it is racial. Firearms are easily available, and this gives a healthy respect on all sides. There are many Indian doctors working here. Many Indians are engineers and entrepreneurs. This may cause some trouble, as criminals now know that Indians are richer than the ordinary natives and they are like sharks preying on easy victims. One burglar told me "I always break into Asian houses as they have gold hidden somewhere". In my opinion, simple precautions will keep Indian visitors and students safe. So, no foreign countries are not becoming unsafe. But as more Indians are arriving, some will get victimized.
Gautam

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 10 Jan 2012 17:17

>>One burglar told me "I always break into Asian houses as they have gold hidden somewhere"

Interesting company you keep their Gautam.

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 10 Jan 2012 17:42

gakakkad wrote:>>One burglar told me "I always break into Asian houses as they have gold hidden somewhere"
Interesting company you keep their Gautam.

Yes, Sir, that is true. I meet with burglars, robbers and murderers every day of the week.
Gautam

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 10 Jan 2012 17:45

another group you increasingly see is the "gurgaon farmhouse/cuff parade apartment brigade" who spend their summers in london or paris, doing the sights, hanging out, spending money. you can see them in upmarket neighbourhoods in town and in swanky restaurants. they are not trying to blend in or keep a low profile. they are who they are. i am fine with that, however excessive displays of "bawarchiloge, idhar aao!" and throwing cash around are likely to illuminate them as tasty targets for the petty criminals who scour these areas for opportunity. mind you in the case that they are spending ill gotten gains, i have no problem with that being distributed out more widely...

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 11 Jan 2012 13:41

I travel abroad frequently and have lived and worked in Russia, UK, Iran and Turkey. I believe the way Indian visitors are perceived now, is far more positively than they were say 15 years ago. There is not just a reduction of overt rascism, but a recognition that India has achieved a lot and therefore Indians (who have achieved that sustained high growth), should be respected more.

In pre Independence days, the Indians travelling abroad were mostly from the erstwile Royal families and pre liberalisation, it was mostly the members of `Old Business' families/ elite. Today, most visitors are from the Middle class - which the average resident of the foreign country identifies more closely with as `people like us'. By contrast, the perception about Arab or Russian tourists is that they have enjoyed the fruit of high commodity prices and there may be a greater tendency to be jealous of them, or gouge them on price. (dont want to make a sweeping statement here, just my perception).

My last trip abroad was a holiday in Germany, which I visited after a gap of 10 years. I found that waitresses or shop assistants were quite eager to serve me and seemed friendlier - even when there were local `white' German customers around. It was simply that I represented a higher probability of a good sale or tip, than a recession hit local.

Paradoxically, with India's increasing wealth, there are also a lot of first time travellers (incl. the students going to dubious colleges abroad). They would have a tendency to stick out more, be unfamiliar with the tough neighborhoods in a town and hence soft targets for local criminals. The crimes involving Indians have generally happened in crime prone areas, which even more affluent residents of those cities would typically avoid.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Jan 2012 15:22

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/218 ... aters.html

Australian opposition has landed in hot waters after one of its leaders suggested that "migrants should be taught the importance of wearing deodorant and waiting in queues without pushing in."

The coalition's citizenship spokeswoman Terese Gambaro said that the cultural awareness training should also be given by employers bringing skilled migrants into Australia under the 457 visa program.

Gambaro said she was concerned about new migrants on work visas not integrating into the community because Australia had failed to teach them about cultural issues related to health, hygiene and lifestyle.

"Without trying to be offensive, we are talking about hygiene and what is an acceptable norm in this country when you are working closely with other co-workers," she said.

"Wearing deodorant and waiting in line politely were about teaching what are norms in Australia," she was quoted as saying by 'The Australian' newspaper in an interview today.

She added Australians were sometimes guilty of not wearing deodorant on public transport.

"We all need to be mindful of our fellow traveller," Gambaro said.

She said while her comments would make some people "most upset", it was equally important that immigrants were taught about laws, customs and their rights so they were not exploited.

The number of 457 temporary business visas granted was 90,120 last financial year, rivalling the 113,725 visas issued under the government's priority program for permanent skilled migration.

She said cultural awareness training was desperately needed for immigrants to help them enjoy life in Australia more fully.

"The detail of this has to be worked out, whether it's included as part of a visa charge for certain industries or done through a labour-hire firm," she said, adding there were going to be problems as more workers arrived in Australia.

"You are going to have a whole pile of people coming in," she said.

"If you're a mining company you'll have a whole pile of people coming in from India or China or anywhere else you need to have socially skilled workers.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Jan 2012 15:25

You can't be criminal if you're British

A plan to restrict the entry of foreign students into shops to combat rampant shop-lifting and theft in Britain's south-western coastal city of Plymouth has sparked an outrage, with residents and immigrants branding it as "racist".

The plan, mentioned in a public document of the Plymouth City Council, was put forth by Clint Jones, manager of the Plymouth City Centre Company (PCCC).

It provoked scorn and a welter of protest from people across Britain who branded it as 'racist and ridiculous'.

The plan envisaged 'special stickers' in shops restricting the entry of students at any one time.

"Over the past five years we have seen in Plymouth, especially the city centre area, a large influx of foreign students. Feedback received from retailers has been that they have experienced an increase in shoplifting and anti-social behaviour from foreign students, incurring large financial losses," the plan states.

Leaders in Plymouth today apologised following an uproar over the plan to prevent shop-lifting and theft by restricting the number of foreign students who can enter local shops.