Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 2010)

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vina
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by vina »

Kodak made some digital cameras also, my first was a Kodak
Dude, the INVENTED it, but did not commercialize it because it would cannibalize film. Well, the other guys like Canon, Nikon etc were very happy to commercialize it!

It is the same old story in company after company, IBM, Xerox, AT&T, the titans of old , who invented much of the disruptive techs, didn't want to commercialize them because it would kill their current businesses and then saw nimble and upstart startups and rivals do it and eat their lunch.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Singha »

every co HQ'ed on the US east coast seems to end in the coffin sooner or later - lucent, wang, digital, wellfleet, .... perhaps only IBM has stood the test of time.

all their movers and shakers of the last 30 years have come off the US west coast - HP, sun, oracle, cisco, EMC, vmware, netapp, juniper, Apple, brocade, broadcom, qualcomm, Intel, AMD, cadence, synopsys, google ... a few outliers Dell in texas do buck the trend.

apparently by mid 60s, there were tens of thousands of scientists, engineers and technicians working in the valley for defence and aerospace outfits like lockheed martin rocket plant, NASA ames, HP and so on..with 100s of smaller suppliers close by..and the dean of stanford started a 100 acre industrial estate for faculty and students to start small cos. they have not looked back thereafter.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by ramana »

^^^
8)
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by svinayak »

Singha wrote:
apparently by mid 60s, there were tens of thousands of scientists, engineers and technicians working in the valley for defence and aerospace outfits like lockheed martin rocket plant, NASA ames, HP and so on..with 100s of smaller suppliers close by..and the dean of stanford started a 100 acre industrial estate for faculty and students to start small cos. they have not looked back thereafter.
West coast and califonria will be the gateway to the Asia - economic engine of the world.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by g.sarkar »

http://www.spiegel.de/international/wor ... 72,00.html
01/05/2012
"Ponzi Planet
The Danger Debt Poses to the Western World
By Alexander Jung
Countries around the world, particularly in the West, are hopelessly in the red, with debt rising every day. Even worse, politicians seem paralyzed, unable -- or unwilling -- to do anything about it. It is a global disaster that threatens the immediate future. But there might be a way out.
When Carlo Ponzi, a dishwasher from Parma, Italy, immigrated to the United States in 1903, he had $2.50 in his pocket and a million-dollar dream in his head. He was able to fulfill that dream, at least temporarily.
Ponzi promised people that he would multiply their money in a miraculous way: by 50 percent in six weeks. With his carefully parted hair and charming accent, Ponzi beguiled investors and fueled their avarice. The first investors raked in fantastic returns. What they didn't know was that Ponzi was simply using the next investors' money to pay them their profits.
The scheme continued. Ten investors turned into 100, and 100 investors turned into 1,000, until the scam was discovered. Ponzi spent many years in prison, and he died a pauper in 1949. But his name remains important to every criminologist today -- and every economist.
Economists use the term "Ponzi scheme" to describe a disastrous mechanism in which someone pays off old debt by constantly taking on new debt. The repayment of the debt -- the most recent loans, plus interest -- is deferred into the distant future, fueling an eternal process of debt refinancing.
It's the classic pyramid, or snowball scheme, practiced by thousands of con artists after Ponzi. The most spectacular case was that of New York financier Bernard Madoff, who was responsible for losses of about $20 billion by 2008. Snowballs are set into motion, becoming bigger and bigger as they roll along. In the worst case, they end in an avalanche that takes everything else with it.
Western economies have not acted much differently than the fraudster Madoff. In 2011, they were virtually inundated with bad news and old sins. Almost everyone -- in Europe and in the United States -- has been living beyond their means, from consumers to politicians to entire countries. Governments have become servants to the markets upon which they have become dependent.
Bigger Snowballs
On an almost weekly basis, the reports have become more worrisome and the sums of money involved more staggering. Many are now concerned that, as 2012 begins, the snowballs will only get bigger -- and roll faster:
There are the banks in Europe, which will have to repay about €725 billion in combined debt in 2012, including €280 billion in the first quarter alone. With the private market largely off-limits to them, the banks have had to rely on the European Central Bank (ECB) to bail them out. The ECB is now lending them fresh money -- as much as they want -- at minimal interest rates.
There is a country like Italy, which has an exorbitant amount of debt to service at the beginning of the year. About €160 billion in debt will mature between January and April; the total for the entire year is about €300 billion. The government in Rome is already having trouble finding buyers for its bonds.
There is the ECB, which is creating billions essentially out of nothing. On an almost weekly basis, it is acquiring bonds that no one else would buy from Portugal, Spain and Italy and, in the process, it is turning into a reluctant financier of nations. This financial aid already amounts to €211 billion.
There is the European Commission, whose president, José Manuel Barroso, supports the use of so-called euro bonds. These bonds, which would be issued jointly by the countries in the monetary union, would amount to an accumulation of collective debt on top of national debts.
There is the €440-billion euro bailout fund, of which €150 billion are already promised to Greece, Ireland and Portugal. But because this amount is still not enough, the finance ministers have decided to "leverage" the fund, a seemingly harmless term for bringing in additional lenders, thereby multiplying the volume of credit.
And then there is the United States, which only remains solvent because the Congress in Washington keeps raising the debt ceiling. The American government already owes its creditors about $15 trillion. Stay tuned for the next installment....."
Gautam
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by shyam »

DEBT LIMIT - A GUIDE TO AMERICAN FEDERAL DEBT MADE EASY.

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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by vina »

Singha wrote:every co HQ'ed on the US east coast seems to end in the coffin sooner or later - lucent, wang, digital, wellfleet, .... perhaps only IBM has stood the test of time.
Well in addition to IBM, you could add GE, United Technologies and all the banks and money management firms to it and of course big Pharma. But yeah, the strangle hold of 100 + year east coast titans with a stranglehold on patents and super market dominance and outsized margins are gone / whittled down.
all their movers and shakers of the last 30 years have come off the US west coast - HP, sun, oracle, cisco, EMC, vmware, netapp, juniper, Apple, brocade, broadcom, qualcomm, Intel, AMD, cadence, synopsys, google ... a few outliers Dell in texas do buck the trend.
None of those are a 100 year life cycle yet like say Kodak or even Polaroid . Some like broacade, google etc are too early in their life cycles . But broadly, all those tech titans gained hugely from the reasearch of AT&T (cell phone, DSL, laser, Unix) and IBM (RDBMS, RISC, disk drives, a whole load of networking) and Digital /DEC , which got killed when they didn't want to commercialize the products they created fearing cannibalization, leading others who gladly took the idea and commercialized (Oracle - RDBMS, Sun & HP - RISC, Cisco - Networking, IBM got out of storage etc..)., PC (Mickesoft and Intel ..IBM DIDN"T want to make a chip and OS for such a piddly thing). To be fair to IBM, it was under massive anti trust pressure , and so was AT&T. But the east coast titans had pretty much everything sewn up ( Think Standard Oil and the old Boeing, Pratt & Whitney, United Airlines and Hamilton Sunstrand alliance , Ma Bell, IBM) and if the jack hammer hadn't been taken and the concrete broken up, the green shoots of such future innovation wouldn't have happened.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Singha »

>> and all the banks and money management firms to it and of course big Pharma

these guys look out only for themselves. big pharma would rob a little old lady of her handbag if they could.

the west coast cos also started the culture of giving stocks in large nos to trench trooper employees not just the suits(who got massive nos). earlier it was like employee with outstanding rating might get 50 shares annually and accumulated maybe a couple 1000 over a decades long career!
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by niran »

something to chew on for the weekend

Beware of Europe’s Backdoor Bank Run
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Shankas »

shyam wrote:DEBT LIMIT - A GUIDE TO AMERICAN FEDERAL DEBT MADE EASY.
Nobody understands debt

The way American politicians and pundits think about debt is all wrong, and exaggerates the problem's size
by Paul Krugman
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by shyam »

Krugman talks like a good con-artist. What he didn't write in the article was that after WWII USD became the world reserve currency. Had that not happened, the outcome might have been very different. During WWII, US was selling weapons to Europe for payment in gold, and not for their paper money.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by ramana »

Singha, Don't forget SUN went into sunset due to bad management. They were the industry leader and had no blockers yet they ran themselves to ground. It would be nice if you tech guys look back and identify the key wrong moves that SUN made to lose itself in the dark.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by SaiK »

I think Sun was not as diversified as IBM.

IBM had a wider impact 'cause of software as service, and capturing market base. Sun hard ware alone can't make an impact without an installed base of database system. Their acquisitions whatever open source did not make any impact to make money (MySQL).

Enterprise area is where IBM emphasized their biggie nature, with platform that supported total solutions. And most enterprise customers like that, and besides IBM changed certain management style to look at what users really want.

IBM does inflict lot of performance issues and that they overcome over periods of time, with fix packs and enhancements. Microsoft ishtyle.

market base is important.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Singha »

IBM had the advantage over SUN of decades of mainframes and 1000s of mainframe applications in the heart of big enterprises. they could feed in smaller machines and eventually rack servers as the HW changed as well as adapt their sw.

SUN for a while tried to be the Apple of the workstation world - their monitors, keyboards were high class, mice were different and solid, their cases were made of aerospace grade plastic.....but eventually more powerful and cheap wintel HW pkged in cheap $20 plastic dabbas won out......you could run heavy apps in back end machines and use the local PC for display .... SUn was never that strong as IBM in SW.

HP is probably a blend of the two - good enterprise hw and decent breadth in sw. no wonder they are #1.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by ramana »

Singha, You dont see a cognitive dissonance in SUN mgt? The market changed drastically yet they were plodding the custom RISC hardware trail. And they mistook the hardware for the computer after coining the phrase "Network is the Computer". All the stalwarts jumped ship with McNealy holding fort doggedly.

Anyone know the extent of East Asian trade not in $ now? Please give estimates in % and or value.

I think the market is changing.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by SaiK »

as bandwidth and security increases, may be more by socially active networks, vpn based cloud computing (especially service oriented architectures) can be the next big wave...and IBM is in it too.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Singha »

>> The market changed drastically yet they were plodding the custom RISC hardware trail.

bismillah, thats not a unique trait to sun...apple stuck to motorola too long after it was apparent intel would rule. inertia is hard to overcome esp if it involves lot of extra work and history. intel has not yet been able to take a bite out of ARM in mobile inspite of its massive resources and squadrons of F-15Es.

I bought into SUNW @ $112 and rode it all the way down to $12 before selling. not a proud moment in my investing history lol.

but the day I joined netz and was handed the keys to a swank new sun workstation and a month later given a even newer ultra10 wkstation with a huge monitor was also a pleasant milestone in my life....it made you feel part of the 'elite brotherhood' :)
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by manish »

Singha wrote:>> The market changed drastically yet they were plodding the custom RISC hardware trail.

bismillah, thats not a unique trait to sun...apple stuck to motorola too long after it was apparent intel would rule. inertia is hard to overcome esp if it involves lot of extra work and history. intel has not yet been able to take a bite out of ARM in mobile inspite of its massive resources and squadrons of F-15Es.

I bought into SUNW @ $112 and rode it all the way down to $12 before selling. not a proud moment in my investing history lol.

but the day I joined netz and was handed the keys to a swank new sun workstation and a month later given a even newer ultra10 wkstation with a huge monitor was also a pleasant milestone in my life....it made you feel part of the 'elite brotherhood' :)
Hmm...during my brief stint in the telecom software biz, I did encounter a whole load of Sun HW & SW. Loads and loads of Sun Solaris installations were running all sorts of things along with another bunch of IBM AIX installations and there were few HP-UX and even fewer Linux machines. And as GD alluded to in a previous post, the HW did look all very TFTA and sexy esp with their standout colour schemes n such.

And I do remember their ads from the turn of the century proclaiming 'We are the dot in dot com'!
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by shyam »

What effectively killed SUN was Linux and Intel. SUN workstation was the default platform for many high end applications in the past. That is why SUN became one of the pillars of dot com revolution. Evolution of Linux and GHz Intel / AMD processors made servers dirt cheap. People could buy 5 Linux servers for the price of a Solaris workstation. Hence SUN started its downhill path.

SUN tried many other alternatives, put Solaris in public domain, ported that to Intel platform. But that couldn't meet price competitiveness.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Christopher Sidor »

Holiday Surge in U.S. Delivery, Warehouse Hiring May Melt Away in January --- Bloomberg Dated 6-Jan-2012

It is entirely possible that the jobs data, which saw the unemployment decline to 8.5% was just a seasonal blip and would remain restricted to Q4-2011. Consider the following, all taken from the above mentioned article
A ) Jobs added by private sector in Dec-2011 = 2.12 Lakhs.
B ) Total Jobs added in Dec-2011 = 2 Lakhs
C ) Number of Jobs lost in Dec-2011 = 0.12 Lakhs (A-B)
According to the Bloomberg article, in between Q4-2010 and Q1-2011 the same happened. Due to holiday rush, new year+Christmas+all the other holidays, unemployment actually declined in Q4-2010. But the decline was reversed, in Q1-2011, as most of the jobs added were seasonal. The same appeared to have happened in Dec-2011 or Q4-2011.
Delivery companies such as FedEx Corp. (FDX) and United Parcel Service Inc. (UPS) added 42,200 jobs to payrolls in December-2011, about a fifth of the total for all employers last month.
....
....
Online retail purchases rose to a record $37.2 billion in the November-December holiday period, a 15 percent increase from 2010
....
....
Atlanta-based UPS in November said it planned to hire about 55,000 holiday workers this year
....
....
FedEx, said the prior month it would hire 20,000 seasonal employees, an 18 percent gain.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by shyam »

Iran and Russia drop dollar for their own currencies in bilateral trade
During the last two years Iran has been replacing the dollar with other currencies in its world trade.

Iran has replaced the dollar in its oil trade with India, China, and Japan. Late in November the Reserve Bank of India issued the needed permission to the Central Bank of Iran to open rupee accounts with two Indian banks, UCO and IDBI, as a long-lasting solution to the two countries' payment problems.

Both accounts were opened in the respective banks' Mumbai branches.

A top official of city-based UCO Bank said that while payments for his country's oil imports would initially be in rupees, it would be then converted into a separate currency, which was yet to be decided by the apex bank.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Singha »

afaik Sun workstations were used by nortel DMS100 family of exchanges to run the out of band SS7 signaling protocols for call control. they were pretty reliable kit and used to run for months without issues...

those glory days are long gone. now every netz entrant gets choice of a thinkpad or powermac laptop , no desktops...and a 21" lcd monitor and external keyboard. thinkpad has a docking station, mac's do not have that...most mac style gurus I see seem to work directly on the laptop at work.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by abhischekcc »

Just one 21" screen? :P

That is so 20th century.

Multiple screens are the TFTA standard.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by shyam »

Yes, SUN was indeed a 20th century company. But it was real TFTA in its time. When most of the people were working on black & White UNIX VT100 terminal or 133 MHz PC, working on a SUN workstation made a big difference.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by kmkraoind »

Germany Gets Negative Yield for First Time in Auction - CNBC

It seems the Euro currency is a blessing to Germany. If it had individual currency (Mark) it would have appreciated its value WRT with dollar, but having a common currency with weaker economies made it more export competitive amassing massive wealth and pseudo-political control. It seems the best advantage for Germany and France to have a common currency, even if they have to forgo some of their loans to rest of their European brothers. Probably Fourth Reich would achieve a complete European dominance and if achieved I would rate it as potent as colonial British empire (sans complete military dominance).
------------------------------------------------------------
Government Set to Sell Foreclosures in Bulk - CNBC

Really a master stroke. Its only possible because USD has a monopoly in global currency.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by ramana »

George Soros in B'Lore

European crisis bigger than 2008 Financial crisis

Interesting location to make that statement.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Tanaji »

Singha wrote:afaik Sun workstations were used by nortel DMS100 family of exchanges to run the out of band SS7 signaling protocols for call control. they were pretty reliable kit and used to run for months without issues...
Never worked on the DMS, but are you sure? The DMS family had their own custom processors, until they transitioned over to the CS2K range of products. Sun workstation would have been for console access, not for processing SS7. I can check though.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Singha »

thats what a guy who worked in nortel long time told me. I had no way to check the veracity of his statement. did strike me as 'odd' though that such a critical piece of sw would be run on some commercial wkstation without even hot standby redundancy.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Austin »

U.S. national debt surpasses economic output
The U.S. national debt has reached an ominous milestone, surpassing the size of the entire U.S. GDP for the first time since World War Two, USA Today reported.

The amount of money the federal government owes to external creditors and its own trust funds, largely Social Security, now tops $15.23 trillion whereas the value of all goods and services the U.S. economy produces in one year is estimated at $15.17 trillion.

Long-term forecasts say the U.S. national debt will continue to grow faster than the economy, which would have to expand by at least 6 percent a year to keep pace.

The U.S. national debt topped the size of the economy for three years during and after World War Two. It fell to slightly over 30 percent of GDP by 1981 and then started a steady climb under President Ronald Reagan, doubling in the next 12 years.

Recession and economic stimulus measures have caused the national debt to soar under President Barack Obama.

Among advanced economies, only Greece, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan and Portugal have debts exceeding the size of their economies. Greece, Ireland and Portugal needed large bailout packages to stave off default.

The U.S. White House and Congress agreed last summer to cut about $1 trillion in federal spending over 10 years. An additional $1.2 trillion in automatic cuts to domestic programs and national defense will begin next year, if lawmakers fail to agree on a better spending cut plan.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Christopher Sidor »

^^^^
In 1998, in the era of Bill Clinton, US eliminated US Federal Deficit entirely. In 2001 the US CBO put out a statement that US was on track to pay down its entire debt within a decade. And now this, Within a decade, the entire good work was undone.

This brings to my mind two points.

During the reign of Laloo Prasad in Bihar there was a sardonic joke doing rounds. The japanese approached CM Laloo and made an offer to him. Give us a free reign in Bihar for 5 years and we will convert this state into Japan, they said to CM of Bihar Laloo. CM of Bihar Laloo scoffed at them and told them, Give me Japan for a year, I will make it into Bihar. Never ever underestimate the capacity of politicians to ruin a perfectly good thing. Consider our country too, where in spite of an economic slow down we are running horrible deficits.

And second point is much more thought provoking. If we look at where America was in 2000-1 and where it is now 2011-12 we see a massive erosion of economic might. And the funny part is that they are blaming the two wars of the previous decade, Iraq and Afghanistan, for this. Even if both the wars were fought purely on debt and assuming that the cost of each war is 1 trillion USD, making the total cost of Iraq+Afghanistan as 2 trillion USD, then also as a percent of total debt, it is less than 15% of the gross debt which America has today.
So inpsite of concentrating on rest of the 85% debt, America is hell bent on reducing the 15%. They will reduce this 15% to nil, put up a nice banner saying "Mission Accomplished," and move on. They are not serious about tackling the 85%. Their means is correct, make the economy grow and pay down the debt. This is in sharp contrast to the European line of thinking, which says austerity, austerity, austerity. Which makes things worse. But the problem with the US method, is the insidious rise in debt.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Theo_Fidel »

USA debt is 60% due to Bush tax cut.

If Amerikan bahadur paid normal tax rate and paid for their wars from tax revenue. there would be no deficit.

Boomers truly are the forgettable generation.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Austin »

It seems Barry burnt ~ $ 5 trillion just like that ..... on economic stimulus and on his pet health care.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Singha »

people will resist anything that causes an erosion of the lifestyle they have bought into. so the boomers will have it relatively easy.

the next gen might have it tougher unless new engines of job creation and value addition are found.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Austin wrote:It seems Barry burnt ~ $ 5 trillion just like that ..... on economic stimulus and on his pet health care.
Look up the break down before you claim things like that.

Stimulus was less than 20% of deficit. Nothing has been spent on Health yet!
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by nachiket »

Theo_Fidel wrote:
Stimulus was less than 20% of deficit. Nothing has been spent on Health yet!
So where did the money go? :-? In India rising government subsidies are one of the main culprits for rising debt. What is the main factor in the US?
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by paramu »

Had Barry not spent that money, America, and there by rest of the world too, would have experienced a serious contraction.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by kmkraoind »

Greek Crisis Has Pharmacists Pleading for Aspirin - Bloomberg

Better for Greek to get out of EU, and start a better life with a much lower base than to remain in eternal begging state forever.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Tanaji »

Singha wrote:thats what a guy who worked in nortel long time told me. I had no way to check the veracity of his statement. did strike me as 'odd' though that such a critical piece of sw would be run on some commercial wkstation without even hot standby redundancy.
OT alert:

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