Are foreign countries becoming more unsafe for Indians?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 11 Jan 2012 15:58

^^^ shopkeepers can today legitimately restrict numbers of school children in their shops to prevent shoplifting and theft. this is not a racist law/practice. extending it to foreign nationals is

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 11 Jan 2012 16:57

Australian opposition has landed in hot waters after one of its leaders suggested that "migrants should be taught the importance of wearing deodorant and waiting in queues without pushing in."

I won't take this in a negative way. I think when people share public space there are responsibilities. Someone may have a predilection on deodorant, but i doubt anyone would object to politely waiting in a que. Or for that matter driving in the city using high beam, honking at passing pedestrians and assorted simple decency when one shares a road, airport facility, public toilet etc. This is not social engineering and sometimes when different cultures do meet, this can be a cause for concern, safety. In India it's highly needed in schools, specially when sharing road space etc. I don't want to judge how civilized people are by their traffic habits (Nixon used to judge that by how people tied their Tie knots), but when i see traffic in Japan/ West and India i do see a world of difference. Very simple rules on public space sharing are given a big miss in India, whereas TV/ Schools etc must be educating people on public space sharing mores. I am sure a simple set of acceptable practices can be made and drummed into public consciousness. It's a positive for Indians in India and saves embarrassment when they go abroad.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Jan 2012 19:33

Harbans - one need not take the Australian politician suggestion "negatively" but it is basically a statement that says that foreigners stink and need to use deodorant.

Let us suppose all Australians agree that foreigners stink or at the very least smell funny. That means Indians visiting Australia for a week and standing in a queue to exit or enter say an entertainment facility need to have deodorant on. One need not take this negatively either. One can say - "Yes. That's not such a big deal is it?"

But it is plain racism and an attitude that visitors must conform to my tastes of smell and appearance. But do you see where this is going? Imagine Indians settled in Australia who use deodorants like Australians do. They get visitors - maybe grandparents or cousins from India who are in after a long flight, with clothes washed in India smelling of the curry powder/ they have brought for your mum in their baggage. Or grandmum uses turmeric paste. They have no deodorant but definitely smell different. Now the Australian Indian kids turn around and ask "Why do Indians smell funny?". In fact that would be a valid question. Why do Indians smell funny? Indians smell funny because Australians have declared the non use of Australian accepted deodorant as bad manners.

If they want the tourists and the students, but they don't like the smell they are soon going to lose out. Not really too much of a problem for Indians as long as Indians settled in Australia don't start lecturing Indians about the need to smell better because of the poor reputation that Indians have that affects the oz resident Indians' echandee as Indians.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Jan 2012 21:45

I think the software experts should create Andoriod and Iphone apps of stay out zones in various cities in the West. The idea is a student in say Londonistan or some other city gets awareness of racial/hate crimes on Indian origin people. The info can come from google news feeds and the software alerts the phone owner about potential for trouble in such area. A more sophisiticated version would use the existing phone gps chips to alert the phone owner.

As the Gulhan Bawra wrote,

"Jis galli me thera ghar na ho, wus galli me....."

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Jan 2012 21:57

Ramana iPhone/Android app idea is good - but watching what Indian kids are doing - Facebook would reach a large audience.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 12 Jan 2012 00:01

surely its the responsibility of the traveller to educate themselves before heading off to new shores? i am sometimes amazed at the naivete of people - i remember meeting some goras a few years ago who were about to head off to peru during the height of the sendero luminoso insurgency - when westerners were getting kidnapped on a daily basis. they had absolutely no clue that there was any danger

similarly lots of IT-wallahs come to the west with almost no idea about anything - and expect their sponsoring company to look after them in all respects; which is also not always possible

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Jan 2012 00:23

gakakkad wrote:>>One burglar told me "I always break into Asian houses as they have gold hidden somewhere"

Interesting company you keep their Gautam.

because he has to catch them.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 12 Jan 2012 00:26

Lalmohan wrote:surely its the responsibility of the traveller to educate themselves before heading off to new shores? i am sometimes amazed at the naivete of people - i remember meeting some goras a few years ago who were about to head off to peru during the height of the sendero luminoso insurgency - when westerners were getting kidnapped on a daily basis. they had absolutely no clue that there was any danger

similarly lots of IT-wallahs come to the west with almost no idea about anything - and expect their sponsoring company to look after them in all respects; which is also not always possible

Lal-Prof, surely public/gubmint in Peru needs to convince the sendero luminoso guys to be nicer. I suspect that is the crux of what we are talking about here, in the context of countries which always tops various "human indexes of the cooler kind" and make us send our kids (and lots of money) for education. If a neighborhood is rotten (though simplistic, "broken window theory" has its uses for picking residential neighbourhoods), the schools cant be far behind. But a parent sitting in India will never know till it is too late.

Both FB for reporting and a community updated wikimapia android app are actually a great idea, as one can get a bearing of recent attacks/issues on Indians.

IT-wallahs are different. There is always recourse by seeking another jaaab. But students are quite vulnerable, IMMO

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 12 Jan 2012 02:01

all the information is readily available in newspapers - the problem is that one has to read them...

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Jan 2012 03:37

Lalmohan wrote:all the information is readily available in newspapers - the problem is that one has to read them...

Right thats why need to collate and push thru the app on city by city basis.

For example the app for a city has the google map for the area. And reads the phone location and checks the database for areas of concern: race/hate/ or just crime directed at Indian origin people and buzzes and gives warning!

Have this city by city and for free download supported by adds. Or charge a minimal amount <a $1

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 12 Jan 2012 04:03

One recurring problem I see is "reluctance of Police to charge the perpetrators with a hatecrime."

This I think is more disturbing than anything else. Every city in every country is going to have a certain proportion of racists/xenophobes; and some percentage of those are going to be desperate/violent. Then it is just a case of an Indian being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I don't think the problem is specific localities where Indians are targeted (as they once were in Central New Jersey in the 1980s)... if we make a digital Map of attacks on Indians, I think the statistics will simply point out the poorer, less-well-policed spots where such things happen for all kinds of reasons, including economic disparity. AFAIK, at least in the Eastern US, the Indian ghettoes are not the sites of specifically targeted anti-Indian violence any longer. I don't know how it is in the UK but I've heard anecdotally that it's improved there as well.

The thing that is frightening... because it comes from the government forces who are supposed to prevent or deter such attacks from taking place... is reluctance to prosecute racially-motivated assaults to the full extent of the law. I've seen reports from the US, UK and Australia where a police spokesperson maintained that they are not going to treat an attack on Indian lives and property, or on a Hindu/Sikh place of worship, as a hatecrime because "there is no evidence this was a hatecrime." WTF?

Any ideas on why this happens, and what can be done to change it? Is it because local judges have to contest elections, and the idea of a "hatecrime" being worse than a regular violent crime is not a popular one among their bigoted white constituents? Is it because the majority/native community believe that "hatecrime" should not carry a heightened penalty... and police forces think they would become unpopular with their local communities if they prosecuted hate-criminals differently from other criminals?

As I said, potential hate-criminals are out there, and violent/desperate people are out there, in all kinds of places. Nothing can be done about that. What deters them is the knowledge that attacking someone out of racial prejudice will carry a much heavier penalty of law than just a regular assault and battery/vandalism type situation. That is why hatecrime legislation is important, and why it has been instituted in many Western countries. If the police and judicial system do not prosecute offenders under this legislation, though, it becomes useless... and hate-criminals who intend violence against Indians are much less deterred.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Jan 2012 05:56

Ultimately human behavior and reactions are similar. If we see how Islamic apologists deny that there there is any violence generated from Islam and that all is peace, I find a similar reaction of denial is possible from police departments and society in the west (or, to be fair in other circumstances, from India).

That is why I think plain racist and hate crimes are not labelled as such or investigated as such.

Lalmohan's statement that Indian techies should pre-inform themselves about modes of behavior and not expect their companies to look after them is only partly fair I think.

If you look at the Indian viewpoint any foreigner who comes in is a guest who should be given respect. But he is given no more in terms of facilities and conveniences than the average Indian - and may get more if he pays more. Women may be ogled at and hear comments while touts and beggars may harrass the tourist. A murder of a tourist gets no more police attention than any other murder. So it is all fair and equal equal. However if India wants increased inflow of tourist traffiic, then India will have to make special provisions for expatriates to feel comfortable in India. I would have thought that the same holds true for the west. If they want the tourists and the money and the temporary employees they are going to have to swallow their pride and do more.

One in six people in the world has always been Indian as far back as I can remember. But as this one in six gets wealthier he is going to be seen a lot more and he is going to be paying the salaries of a lot more people. It will be up to those people to take the Indian as he is. Stink, finickiness and all. Why on earth should the Indian change and how much should he change when he is paying to have fun?

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 12 Jan 2012 07:14

I have been living here (western country) from 25 years and in all white neighborhood. I am a Sikh (with cut hair) but raising my children to be full sikh (with turban and all) . Here is what I have observed

1. I live in a neighborhood where majority of people are around my age (40).

2. If you communicate with everybody around you telling them your position they become your sympathizers (so much so that when my father passed away in India both my neighbors took turns to mow my 1/2 acre lawn).

3. It is my habit to communicate to every new person I see, to tell them about me and my beliefs and India, Sikhism as well as Sikhs are not Muslims. All 50 of my neighbors know that Sikhs are not muslims (as I educated them).

4. Every year I get "Happy Diwali" and "Happy Gurpurab" from people around me.

5. All we do is show them Indian food (Dal and Roti) and how it is made and they become fans., 2-3 times you send them few bowls of DAAL and they would do anything you want.

The bottom line is communications!! We indians do not engage them as we think that our roti/rice/dal/dosa/sambhar/etc is not good enough for goras but average goras have not tasted anything as heavenly like this!! so communicate and engage as much as possible is the answer!!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Jan 2012 07:32

SBajwa wrote: The bottom line is communications!! We indians do not engage them as we think that our roti/rice/dal/dosa/sambhar/etc is not good enough for goras but average goras have not tasted anything as heavenly like this!! so communicate and engage as much as possible is the answer!!

Bajwa - you may not believe it but what Sikhs have is self confidence and pride. "Chati" (Chest/pride, in Kannada). I come from a state (Karnataka) where people are always saying that locals are too self effacing and diffident and would rather hide their origins and language. Sikhs are often admired for their pride in being themselves and the ability to allow sardar jokes to wash off like water off a ducks back rather than taking it to heart and doing a typical "Dekho log kya keh rahe hain" caterwaul. Apart from Sikhs I find that Tamilians, Kerala-ites and Bongs hold up their spine and talk with pride. To an extent Gujjus too. Bihar, Maharashtra, I am with you.

habal · Post by **habal** » 12 Jan 2012 10:06

AnantD wrote:2. I realized down the line after about 10 years or so, that leaving color, language, accent end environment aside, the people in the western countries were just like the people in India. I could find 1:1 comparisons, some quite odd!! Once understood, things got easier. Same rules applied to dealing with them and what was to be expected in response.

I can relate to what you are saying. My experience as well.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 12 Jan 2012 13:46

speaking personally - before i go to a new country, i usually read up a few things, including things like lonely planet guides. these list all manner of potential hazards - though mostly related to bugs/pests and communicable diseases. if you took them all seriously you would never set foot in the 'turd world'

going by newspapers - south africa and russia are highly dangerous places for visitors - and they are. yet it is possible to visit, travel around and enjoy yourselves in these countries with a little bit of care and attention. again personally speaking - before ever visiting germany i had given myself a paranoid mindset by reading about nazis and modern day right wing thugs - and therefore the first time i went there i was nervous. stupidly so, since germans have always been highly welcoming and courteous to me, and after a few visits (especially to the oktoberfest!) i feel quite comfortable in germany.

there is one thing i am struggling with on this thread - in my opinion - the world is a good and a bad place. we individually must take the responsibility to be aware before we venture out - and make our own decisions. why should we expect anyone else to give a damn?

in some ways this is analogous to the constant refrains on BRF in the past that 'why doesn't america do x,y,z w.r.t us/pakistan?'

i really feel that it is up to us individually (and collectively) to understand the world and get on with things

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 12 Jan 2012 14:10

I once had a conversation with a colleague in massland (typical macualite p-sec) who held the opinion that the white race was inherently superior to us because they invaded us and gave us religion (sick indo-aryan cr@p), and he gave me the look of indignation that I need to stop feeling proud of my people and culture and fall in line with him. So with one such belief (which is wrong by the way), some of us are quick to feel inferior and cede space to the other races. The strength of the white man lies in that no matter what history may prove (Indo-aryan theory being false, Europeans having 2-3% neanderthal genes, Europe being given agriculture by migrants from middle east, cannibalism in hills of bonne, Germany in 4th century AD etc etc), they still hold pride in their culture, race and people.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 12 Jan 2012 14:17

^^^ that is just the standard america is right and you must fit in psychology in operation in massaland
i don't take it seriously because i am comfortable in the knowledge of the strengths of my own heritage

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Jan 2012 15:06

Lalmohan wrote: there is one thing i am struggling with on this thread - in my opinion - the world is a good and a bad place. we individually must take the responsibility to be aware before we venture out - and make our own decisions. why should we expect anyone else to give a damn?

in some ways this is analogous to the constant refrains on BRF in the past that 'why doesn't america do x,y,z w.r.t us/pakistan?'

i really feel that it is up to us individually (and collectively) to understand the world and get on with things

No. I think countries that claim to be civilized and who want to attract students or tourists pretty much have a responsibility to make things as welcoming and comfortable as possible for the visitor who comes for a purpose.

If you don't demand you don't get. I don't believe in hint hint nudge nudge and "self understanding". A person who lives in his country and has never faced "tough neighborhood" cannot be expected to go abroad and just become aware that some neighborhoods are dangerous. This is true for a majority of college students in India who grow up in perfectly safe small town surroundings. I can't see why a visitor should be apologetic or reticent, especially if he is otherwise well behaved. and paying good money to boot. He has to be demanding of basic rights like security.

OT but Pakistan demands things of India and the US. The US demands things of Pakistan and India. There is nothing wrong if Indians make demands. It is completely unnecessary to be "understanding and accommodative" of the other person's problems. "Poor poor United Queendom - they try so hard . Its OK if the odd Indian gets killed/robbed by yobs. It's just a statistic. Karma. Ignore it." This is not the sort of attitude I agree with.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Jan 2012 15:12

In the meantime:

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/india ... -uk-166049

Indian-origin man, wife killed in UK

London: An Indian-origin man and his English wife have been murdered in Birmingham, the British police said today, weeks after an Indian student was killed in an apparent hate crime in Manchester.

The West Midlands Police named the victim as Avatar Singh Kolar, 62, and Carole Kolar, 58. The police added that their son is a police officer.

The incident comes closely after 23-year-old Indian student Anuj Bidve was shot dead in Greater Manchester, in a case that make headlines in both India and Britain.

Yesterday, the police also confirmed the death of another 20-year-old Indian-origin student Gurdeep Hayer being found dead in Manchester city centre, eight days after he went missing.

In the killing of the couple, no suspects have been identified so far as the police launched an appeal for information in the murder case. The bodies of the two victims were discovered in their house in Handsworth Wood, just after 8 am today, but no further details about the victims were released.

The police believed the couple was subjected to an assault. Both were pronounced dead at the scene and a major investigation was immediately launched.

Read more at: http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/india ... -166049&cp

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 12 Jan 2012 15:39

shiv - you are now putting words into my mouth or infering it.

as for welcoming - whilst the home office/college authorities can welcome all they like (and they do, since i have seen leaflets etc., for this purpose) - they cannot mandate criminals/thugs/tough guys on the street to behave in the same way. almost all univs in the UK (the legitimate ones) issue quite comprehensive guides to students about L&M, drugs, rock n' roll and crime - and what to do about it. despite that even home students also get mugged/raped/killed every year. you cannot guarantee 100% safety to anyone - and that is precisely where the individual has to take responsibility - over and above what else has been provided.

i dont buy this argument that 'i am a small town SDRE, the world owes me safety and protection' - to me its the same as 'i am a small town gora lazy moron who wants the state to pay for everything'

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Jan 2012 17:02

Lalmohan wrote: whilst the home office/college authorities can welcome all they like (and they do, since i have seen leaflets etc., for this purpose) - they cannot mandate criminals/thugs/tough guys on the street to behave in the same way.
..
i dont buy this argument that 'i am a small town SDRE, the world owes me safety and protection' - to me its the same as 'i am a small town gora lazy moron who wants the state to pay for everything'

But Lalmohan you did say this earlier

excessive displays of "bawarchiloge, idhar aao!" and throwing cash around are likely to illuminate them as tasty targets for the petty criminals who scour these areas for opportunity. mind you in the case that they are spending ill gotten gains, i have no problem with that being distributed out more widely.

Clearly, for someone in the UK, comfort could come from imagining, with not a shred of proof, that the person who was robbed was probably spending stolen/embezzled money so serves him right.

Now here is news from today
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ustry.html

India jobs drift 'harms UK industry'

The Government has been urged to set up an independent commission to tackle the social and industrial "earthquake" of hundreds of thousands of finance jobs being lost to India.

Amicus warned that the UK would become a nation of "fat cats and hairdressers" unless the changing nature of employment was managed properly.

The union, which has opened its annual conference in Blackpool, predicted that 200,000 UK jobs were likely to be lost in the biggest industrial collapse since manufacturing was "decimated" in the 1980s.

Service sector industries, including call centres, replaced manufacturing in many regions with high unemployment levels, but these jobs were now being lost as well, said Amicus.

Firms including telephone giant BT have opened new call centres in India, where costs are a fraction of those in the UK.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z1jF6MtRjP

You see where this is heading?

The Home office entices young Indians to come to the UK for the money they bring in. They can't give a shit about their safety. There is increasing societal anger against Indians and if someone gets hit there are people who will take comfort in the idea that the people who were hit deserved it because they did not do enough pamphlet reading or that their wealth was ill gotten anyway.

You know this sounds like the description of a perfectly uncivilized society to me. If nothing else a thread like this will hopefully open some people's eyes to exactly how societies in some western countries are changing as grapes get sour. It should be a warning bell for Indians and also a sign to me that if Indians are paying they should be demanding what they need, and not what is being given reluctantly and with sullen, impotent anger.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 12 Jan 2012 17:24

shiv wrote: http://www.deccanherald.com/content/218 ... aters.html
Australian opposition has landed in hot waters after one of its leaders suggested that "migrants should be taught the importance of wearing deodorant and waiting in queues without pushing in."

The coalition's citizenship spokeswoman Terese Gambaro said that the cultural awareness training should also be given by employers bringing skilled migrants into Australia under the 457 visa program.

Gambaro said she was concerned about new migrants on work visas not integrating into the community because Australia had failed to teach them about cultural issues related to health, hygiene and lifestyle.

"Without trying to be offensive, we are talking about hygiene and what is an acceptable norm in this country when you are working closely with other co-workers," she said.

"Wearing deodorant and waiting in line politely were about teaching what are norms in Australia," she was quoted as saying by 'The Australian' newspaper in an interview today.

She added Australians were sometimes guilty of not wearing deodorant on public transport.

"We all need to be mindful of our fellow traveller," Gambaro said.

She said while her comments would make some people "most upset", it was equally important that immigrants were taught about laws, customs and their rights so they were not exploited.

The number of 457 temporary business visas granted was 90,120 last financial year, rivalling the 113,725 visas issued under the government's priority program for permanent skilled migration.

She said cultural awareness training was desperately needed for immigrants to help them enjoy life in Australia more fully.

"The detail of this has to be worked out, whether it's included as part of a visa charge for certain industries or done through a labour-hire firm," she said, adding there were going to be problems as more workers arrived in Australia.

"You are going to have a whole pile of people coming in," she said.

"If you're a mining company you'll have a whole pile of people coming in from India or China or anywhere else you need to have socially skilled workers.

Please watch this video from 6 mins 55 secs:

Though good to watch all of it !

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 12 Jan 2012 19:35

shiv - all societies are uncivilised in some ways. i have absolutely no illusions about that. i've been around the block and seen most of these things first hand, and experienced them personally and sometimes very harshly - sometimes even from the police that were supposedly 'protecting me'. the world is not the benign place that indian 'parents' might think it to be, we'll all have to deal with it

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 12 Jan 2012 19:53

Lalmohan wrote:shiv - all societies are uncivilised in some ways. i have absolutely no illusions about that. i've been around the block and seen most of these things first hand, and experienced them personally and sometimes very harshly - sometimes even from the police that were supposedly 'protecting me'. the world is not the benign place that indian 'parents' might think it to be, we'll all have to deal with it

Of course, the world is not always a benign place. There are all sorts of people in the worlds and that includes rogues. But how does one deal with it? By being docile, 'accommodating' and non-complaining?

I think the only way to deal with harsh people(rogues) is by being tough, assertive, aggressive and strong. Of course, one can be accommodating and polite with gentle people.

So, whats wrong with the Indians demanding that the host countries get their act together in providing safety and security? Should Indians not demand so? Whether those demands will be met or not, is a different issue. But it is the right of Indians to make those demands, isnt it?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 12 Jan 2012 20:18

i didn't say it wasn't - of course you can demand. but you cannot eliminate it. when you cannot eliminate it - you have to deal with it

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Jan 2012 21:33

johneeG wrote: So, whats wrong with the Indians demanding that the host countries get their act together in providing safety and security? Should Indians not demand so? Whether those demands will be met or not, is a different issue. But it is the right of Indians to make those demands, isnt it?

Yes.

And I see this from a karma is a she-dog point of view. How often do you find countries giving "travel advisories" about India when nothing much happens to 99.99999% of Indians in the events that sparked off the travel advisories? I think India too should consider giving travel advisories to people wanting to go abroad. 3 Indians killed? Manchester is dangerous for Indians. Advice: avoid if possible.

Not that they will stop going abroad - but some people will.

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 12 Jan 2012 23:00

A few comments. I have no problem if the number of customers coming in a store is restricted, by the owner. I personally know Indian shopkeepers that have told me that young people have stolen merchandize from their shop and one trick is to distract him by coming in with a large number. The police will not intervene in most cases as this happens in poorer areas. Poorer areas are by definition poor, and can not afford to pay more property taxes, this means less money to keep police and fire fighters. So, less police hence less protection where it is needed the most.
Now, Indians coming abroad may be smelly, loud, impolite and uneducated and they may be lacking completely in common sense. If the host country does not want them as a tourist, or as a student or even as an immigrant, they have the sovereign right to refuse visas. But when they are in the country, their protection is a part of the host countries duty. That protection is given by the law enforcement agencies as well as by the common public in a general way. This is how it is in civilized societies. You can not say the Indian student was so loud on his expensive cell phone, that I can not afford, I just had to bash his head in. The group of Indians were singing a Bollywood song that I found obnoxious, so I went and broke an arm. If you are blaming the behaviour of the Indian for the violence, you are blaming the victim.
Gautam

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 12 Jan 2012 23:04

johneeg - you deal with it by insisting that the law is upheld, you deal with it by giving it back to whoever is doing it to you - but that is not always possible if you are physically outnumbered, but the answer is not passivism or withdrawal.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 13 Jan 2012 00:08

g.sarkar-saar, brilliant post. That is the only way to look at it - Indian as a victim, not "he deserved it for being <insert whatever pisses one off, including lack of knowledge of locality>"

Again as I mentioned earlier, if countries want to rub our noses in the mud with "We are #1 in Cool Lists of HDI/security/pedicure/happiness", then they should buck up and prove it to Indian students and their parents. These students and their family, they actually believe these Cool Lists and spend valuable Indian money that could otherwise be used in the local economy, which could have aided India in the climbing up in these cool lists. At the very least, it is a fraud to use such lists and wring money out of Indians. It is not enough to sleep through targeted thuggery or fake degree/visa rackets and later claim the Indian student is at fault for falling for the halo-effect/propaganda videos coming from these "developed countries".

As Oz (and recently the brits) has proven, when it started affecting their Marmite spreads, they bucked up noticeably. We got to be alert and proactive in protecting our students (and other vulnerable folks) in the "developed world" as we are in more unstable, but predictable places.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Jan 2012 00:45

Sometime back toruists from Germany were getting robbed and killed in Florida as the locals found them to be rich and easy to identify by the rental car signs. So one measure besides sensitizing the tourists was to require no rental car signs on the cars. I recall Germany was quite upset at its citiziens being mugged regularly in Florida.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 13 Jan 2012 01:20

doope

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 13 Jan 2012 01:24

Jhujar wrote:
shiv wrote:The bottom line is communications!! We indians do not engage them as we think that our roti/rice/dal/dosa/sambhar/etc is not good enough for goras but average goras have not tasted anything as heavenly like this!! so communicate and engage as much as possible is the answer!!
Bajwa - you may not believe it but what Sikhs have is self confidence and pride. "Chati" (Chest/pride, in Kannada). I come from a state (Karnataka) where people are always saying that locals are too self effacing and diffident and would rather hide their origins and language. Sikhs are often admired for their pride in being themselves and the ability to allow sardar jokes to wash off like water off a ducks back rather than taking it to heart and doing a typical "Dekho log kya keh rahe hain" caterwaul. Apart from Sikhs I find that Tamilians, Kerala-ites and Bongs hold up their spine and talk with pride. To an extent Gujjus too. Bihar, Maharashtra, I am with you.

Well Deodrant thing is necessity as any Desi gathering will vouch for it. Waiting in line is always chaotic . i have to confront a French man in Paris who just pushed the kids and cut the line at louvre.
All then Pakis here now says they are from North!! No one knows which North . a girl in my Daughter's middle and 2 diffirent boys in my son's school have made similar claim.[/quote]

rajrang · Post by **rajrang** » 23 Jan 2012 01:27

US, UK lead the world in crime. India is number 9. Considering that India's population is 20 times that of UK, the crime rates normailized by the population (i.e. per 100,000 or so citizens), will show that UK has nearly 80 times the crime rate of India and the US nearly 30 times!

http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-te ... rates.html

The US leads the world in incarceration rates. India is 208 in the list out of 216 countries on this list! Should India be proud of this? This could partly be to shorter jail sentences in Inida which in turn could be due to less henious crimes in India. Importantly this could be because Indians are generally more non-violent than in other countries?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... ation_rate

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Jan 2012 08:29

Whenever a metric that compares all countries in the world shows that some "developing" or "turd world" country is better than "developed" counties, the metric is often changed to explain how the previous metric was wrong.

As long as people are merely required to stand by and maintain their mental biases, everyone is happy. If any information demands a change in that mental bias, then the information is declared wrong. This is plain simple cognitive dissonance.

Once you start with the bias that "Foreign is better, India is worse", any statistic that disputes that must be wrong, because your entire thinking process has to be re-ordered if you must say that something Indian is good or better than what obtains in phoren.

Abhi_G · Post by **Abhi_G** » 23 Jan 2012 10:26

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/india ... way-169501

Indian couple's nightmare: SM Krishna may talk to Norway

As an Indian couple battles in Norway for the custody of their two children - taken away and sent to foster care by the Child Protective Services - External Affairs Minister SM Krishna is expected to speak to his counterpart in Norway today.

Krishna had yesterday urged the Indian ambassador to speak to the Norwegian Foreign envoy demanding the kids be sent back to their parents. Mr Krishna has also urged the envoy to lodge an official protest.

In May last year, Anurup and Sagarika Bhattacharya lost custody of their toddlers - three-year-old Avigyan and one-year-old Aishwarya - after [b]Norwegian authorities objected to them hand feeding the children, equating it to force feeding.[/b]

Norway's Child Protective Service took equal objection to the child sleeping in the same bed as the father, insisting the boy must have an independent bed. When contacted by NDTV, the head of Norway's Child Welfare Services denied the account of the parents.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 23 Jan 2012 10:32

Norwegians

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 23 Jan 2012 13:21

an arrest has been made in connection with the murder of the middle aged indian origin man and his british wife in the UK. the accused is a lithuanian emigrant burglar

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Jan 2012 14:50

what fetish do the goras have for deo? I always seen deo use (lack of it) as being held up as a major -ve mark against Indics.

imo if you take a bath daily or even every alternate day , change underclothes and socks daily, do not work in a hot sweaty environment there is absolutely no value add to using deos. our parents gen never used deos, my mother never uses deos yet they did not smell. at most they used "nycil" powder or "ponds dreamflower talc"

so do the goras bath daily or have they gone feral and green?

Abhijeet · Post by **Abhijeet** » 23 Jan 2012 15:37

WRT Indians being given "the lay of the land" when traveling abroad -- does anyone read Lonely Planet magazine India? Every issue has travel articles, written by Indians from India traveling abroad. After reading many Lonely Planet, Rough Guides and Fodors books written for US/UK/Australian travelers, it's refreshing to see articles written from the point of view of an Indian tourist -- including visa information for Indians, the location of the nearest Indian consulate, and Indian restaurant locations.

The NDTV Good Times channel also has a couple of travel shows with Indian hosts traveling abroad -- the one episode I saw was with a couple of (female) Indian hosts traveling north of the Arctic Circle in Finland.

These are things that would have been very very niche even ten years back. As more and more Indians travel abroad, there will be even more experiences available online and offline for those who want to acquaint themselves with a foreign place from the point of view of an Indian tourist.