Indian Army: News & Discussion

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jan 2012 03:00

.......
•The dispute over General Singh's age began in 2006 when a bureaucrat noticed two different dates in his records when his name came up for promotion and sought clarification from the Military Secretary's branch, which handles promotions. The Military Secretary's branch had the year of birth down as 1950 and that's what it shared with the Defence Ministry without cross-checking the date with the Adjutant General's branch, which is the official record-keeper for army officers.
{So negligence on the part of the MS branch which gives out opinions without checking with the AG branch the keeper of the records. Also why did the bureaucrat ask for Singh's file?}

•In 2008, for another promotion, the Army Headquarters asked the General to accept 1950 as his official age, giving him 24 hours to do so or else face disciplinary action. The then Army Chief and the Military Secretary said that other people in the queue were also suffering due to the delay in this case. Faced with an ultimatum, General Singh wrote back the same day to say "whatever decision is taken in the organisation's interest is acceptable to me."

So the Govt case rests on a letter obtained under duress and they want to defend themselves in court!

Read more at:

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/10-bi ... -167952&cp

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 18 Jan 2012 03:10

The "succession plan" argument doesn't make sense either.

When Gen B C Joshi died in office didn't it throw the succession plan out of gear, then did heavens fall?

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 18 Jan 2012 03:12

[youtube]wiGBRrhRqIE&feature=related[/youtube]

I am feeling so helpless...I don't know why

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jan 2012 03:18

They have some fall guy to agree to hand over what ever the politicians are being made to accept for greater purposes. Meantime the babus bamboozle the politicians and claim civil military issues where its a case of plain old cussedness on their part. The whole matter was triggered by MOD bureaucrat in 2006. For soem reason the MS branch suffers from hubris or rather Nimrod syndrome and doesnt want to coordiante with the appropriate branches. It has failed its primary function of adminstration. So what is it secretarying? Conspiring to fix soldiers careers?

And all this rests on a little young boy 15 years old and his date of birth on the entrance exam which he corrected promptly. They wait 30 years to rake up a controversy. Nothing worse than a pissed off clerk.

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 18 Jan 2012 03:23

Govt decides on tough response to General VK Singh's legal move

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 530331.cms

Beep ke beep media waale.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jan 2012 03:36

Chandigarh Tribune:
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2012/20120118/main1.htm

Age row
Govt ready to battle it out with Army Chief
Ajay Banerjee & R Sedhuraman/TNS

New Delhi, January 17
After being blighted by Army Chief General VK Singh’s writ petition filed in the Supreme Court yesterday, the Union Government today got down to exploring various options for tackling the issue. n Defence Ministry files caveat in SC

- Antony discusses issue with PM
- Defence Secy called back from Malaysia

The Ministry of Defence filed a caveat in the Supreme Court pleading that the court should not pass any order without seeking its views on the petition filed by the General.

Certain sections within the government said they were “pained” at the move of the Army Chief and termed it as a “bad precedent.”

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Defence Minister AK Antony held a series of meetings with officials concerned to arrive at the best possible option and weighed various repercussions of each move. Sacking the General is not being considered, said sources, adding the government could not have changed the rules to correct the date of birth of the Army Chief as asked by him on the basis of his matriculation certificate. Rules specify a stipulated period for correcting an employee’s age and that period has already elapsed in the case.

{Wrong. He did submit the papers to correct the error and it was corrected in the AG's office. It was the MS branch which refused to correct it. There is something wrong in the MS branch to be so adamant about rectifying an error on their part. Does any officer know what data the MS has on them?}

The PM was reportedly briefed by Attorney-General GE Vahanvati on the issue. Sources said the government could take a position that the case be heard in the Armed Forces Tribunal as it was a service matter. However, it seems unlikely that the apex court would agree to such a request of the government and not take up the petition of the Army Chief.

To start with, the government has also considered that a new Chief of the Army could be appointed straightaway while General VK Singh can also continue in service and be asked to proceed on leave till the pendency of his plea in the apex court. This would mean having two four-star Generals. The confusion over the DoB stems from the fact that the Army, all these years, has been maintaining two records. The Military Secretary’s (MS) office says the DoB of the Army Chief is May 10, 1950, while the Adjutant General’s (AG) branch lists it as May 10, 1951. Among the things discussed today was the fact that the MS and the AG both work under the Army Chief. The controversy could give the government a handle to wrest control of these two wings, each of which is headed by a Lt General-rank official.

Defence Secretary Shashikant Sharma, who was in Malaysia, was called back immediately. He held a series of meetings with Defence Minister AK Antony over the issue during the day.

The government then filed a caveat pleading with the Supreme Court not to pass any order without seeking its views. The ministry has approached the SC despite the fact that the apex court normally does not issue any order on such issues without hearing the other side. This shows that the government does not want to take any chances in the case.

{Or panic about the SC future course of action.}

Gen VK Singh has contended that he was fighting the case not to delay his retirement, slated for May 31 this year, but to have his honour and integrity intact. It is not clear as to when the petition filed by the Army Chief would be listed for hearing in the apex court.

ManuJ · Post by **ManuJ** » 18 Jan 2012 03:42

In the glorious bureaucratic tradition of our nation, the records become much more important than the actual facts they are supposed to represent.

In all the hullabaloo about the different dates being recorded, and who recorded them and why, the central questions that are at the center of it all have all been neglected - "When was the General actually born?" and "Did the General at any time use the other DOB to his advantage?"

The answers to both these questions should be very apparent to all concerned.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jan 2012 03:44

And the reverse of your second question?

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 18 Jan 2012 04:06

Sir, I wish GOI had this much 'anger' in fighting terror coming from Pakistan (as TOI is reporting now)

Somehow this is packaged as 'supremacy of civilian leadership' for you.

narmad · Post by **narmad** » 18 Jan 2012 04:16

Age row: Govt decides on tough response to General VK Singh's legal move

18 JAN, 2012, 03.39AM IST, RAJAT PANDIT & DHANANJAY MAHAPATRA,TNN

A day after it was ambushed by General V K Singh who took his battle over his age to the Supreme Court, an angry government on Tuesday decided to take on the Army chief frontally in the apex court. {These are the times the govt gets angry}
Incensed by Gen Singh's surprise move, and regretting that it allowed itself to be outmaneuvered by him, {WTF is wrong with Hagat Pandit?}the government explored the entire spectrum of options, ranging from simply letting the court take a call on the case to asking the Army chief to resign or go on leave and naming his successor before time.
It is recognized that Gen Singh has managed to "manipulate" perception to paint himself as a victim and, therefore, the first move in the counter-strike should be to blast holes in his version, say government sources. {HAGAT Pandit should go write B grade Movie scripts}

The Centre has decided to field attorney general G E Vahanvati and solicitor general R F Nariman in court.

Antony, who trusted the chief against the counsel of senior officials who had tried to alert him to the "Janus- type qualities" of the general, is hurt and angry over having been taken for a ride. The trust deficit between the two is just one of the reasons why there is a unanimous feeling in the government that Gen Singh's continuation as Army chief has become "untenable", sources said.
The Army chief, armed with his matriculation certificate and other documents, on his part, has called it a battle for "his personal honour and integrity". He has declared if the court corrects his DoB from May 10, 1950 to May 10, 1951 as he wants, he will not seek an extended tenure and go home on May 31 as scheduled.

The government's defence revolves around Gen Singh's three letters of January 2008 and November 2009 "accepting" his DoB as May 10, 1950, and assurances that he would "maintain" it.
In a 2009 letter to then Army chief Gen Deepak Kapoor, Gen Singh said he had "learnt of some misgivings and doubts being raised on my commitment given on my DoB as per your directions. You are well aware that I have not gone back on this commitment... I have taken your directions in letter and spirit..."
The government argues Gen Singh's promotions to the rank of first Army commander (senior Lt-General) in 2008 and then the Army chief in 2010, as cleared by the Appointments Committee of the Cabinet, was done taking into account his written acceptances on his DoB. "So, Gen Singh now seems to be going against his own assurances to the Army and government," said an official.

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 18 Jan 2012 04:19

Some more important facts to consider -

Chief Justice of India S.H. Kapadia decided to himself hear the PIL filed earlier by the Rohtak Chapter of the Grenadiers Association in support of General Singh.

(This was before COAS filed his petition)

Chief Justice of India S.H. Kapadia's notable judgements

On March 3, 2011, the three member bench headed by Kapadia, quashed the appointment of Chief Vigilance Commissioner, P.J. Thomas, made by the High Power Committee comprising Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, Home Minister P. Chidambaram and Leader of Opposition Sushma Swaraj (dissenting). The judgment caused severe embarrassment for the Government and made Manmohan Singh admit the error in appointment.

The General is a combat soldier and he has paradropped in the adversaries territory. His adversaries are too strong and he is going down one way or the other as outlined in the dailymail picture below. The third scenario will be the one where he will cause the maximum damage but anyway the govt won't co-operate with him in that case as well. (my understanding from the TOI article above)

He is a Rajput from Bhiwani district in Haryana. (I'm from Bhiwani as well

)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahome/in ... tices.html

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 18 Jan 2012 04:29

It is recognized that Gen Singh has managed to "manipulate" perception to paint himself as a victim and, therefore, the first move in the counter-strike should be to blast holes in his version, say government sources.

Can I file a PIL to ****** remove this Government...what the heck are they doing ?? Instead of solving the matter..they are showing their arrogance of the highest limit....POWER ne dimag khiska diya hai GoI ka (they have lost there mind kampletely).

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 18 Jan 2012 04:36

wow so who will you believe in the media

look at them - writing with nary a thought that what they are writing sounds so stupid

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jan 2012 04:44

One more

Insidous PIL forced the issue

Looks like some formula was being worked out but not fast enough nor did it have the political backing.

Grieve if you can.

AKA is repeating Krishna Menon in so far he is tinkering with Indian Army.

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 18 Jan 2012 07:27

Editorial (not opinion) in The Hindu backs Gen Singh!

The General and the labyrinth

The controversy over the age of General V.K. Singh, the subject of an already heated and often unseemly public debate, is now threatening to get out of hand.[/color] With the Army Chief left with no resort but to challenge the Defence Ministry in the Supreme Court in order to “protect his integrity and honour,” the issue has the makings of an unseemly civilian-military confrontation that could easily have been avoided had plain common sense prevailed over bureaucratic thick-headedness.[/color] There are a slew of documents — including a birth certificate and a school-leaving certificate — that prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that General Singh, whose father as well as grandfather were Army officers, was born on May 10, 1951. This is the date of birth recorded in the office of the Adjutant General, the Army's official record-keeper.[/color] The ]controversy has arisen because the Military Secretary[/color] — another wing of Army Headquarters that maintains personal records relating to postings, transfers, and promotions — records him as having been born on May 10, 1950. General Singh has been at pains to explain that the latter date, gleaned from an application form for entrance to the National Defence Academy when he was only 14 years old, was a mistake committed by a teacher of his. He has also revealed that the discrepancy was raised with two predecessor Army Chiefs — but, strangely and for reasons the Defence Ministry has not yet disclosed, to no avail.
[/color]
A brave and highly decorated officer, General Singh is recognised as a brilliant strategist and a reform-minded leader who is tough on corruption, as reflected in the hard line he adopted against erring officers in the Adarsh Cooperative Housing Society scam. The mudslinging and insinuations intended to portray him as someone fiddling with his birth date to hang on to the power and privileges of high office must be rejected with contempt. [/color]One major reason why his year of birth has become such a hot potato is that the date of his retirement will have a bearing on who will succeed him as Army Chief. By refusing to accede to General Singh's request to correct the official record on the basis of documented fact, the Defence Ministry has shown astonishing short-sightedness[/color], and in the process tread on a proud soldier's sense of honour.[/color] Even now, rather than fight for a bad cause in the highest court in the land, a disputation that could have a bearing on the Army's morale, the government should backtrack and come up with a constructive solution[/color]. [By conceding General Singh's just case and treating him with the respect and honour that are his due, it should be able to clear the decks for a smooth succession to the post he occupies.
[/color]

Satyameva Jayate!

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 18 Jan 2012 08:02

Spotlight turns on low-profile Antony

Officer’s mess

‘Petition not an afterthought... have right to retire with dignity’

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 18 Jan 2012 08:03

Difficult for Govt to sack Army Chief

According to sources the government will find it difficult to sack General VK Singh even though he has moved the Supreme Court to resolve the controversy surrounding his date of birth.

Sources also say that the Supreme Court will certainly object if General Singh is removed as he has filed a petition.

The sacking may also be politically unwise in an election year when caste sentiments could be easily aroused, the sources added.

Another reason is that two of the states in election mode, Punjab and Uttarakhand, both have a large population of ex-servicemen and their families. One Rank One Pension is already an election issue for them; if the government takes the extreme step of sacking VK Singh it would be another instance of the visible discrimination meted out to the military by civilians. It would then definitely have an impact on the elections.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jan 2012 08:18

Officer’s mess

This one lays out where the rot started by Manu Pubby.

BTW kudos to Hindu and Ind Express for providing the facts.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 18 Jan 2012 08:27

A wake up call for everyone to see where the so called "top notch" defence journalists lie

Manu Pubby definitely did a good job listing every fact.

am waiting to see which Outlook comes on.

Unless i missed their article

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 18 Jan 2012 08:52

ASPuar wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:IMPO, Chief will need a miracle to win this.
IMHO, he has already won. He has stood up for his honour, which every service officer is duty bound to do, and has completely exposed the moral bankruptcy and failure of the current bureaucratic setup in the MoD.

He has given an undertaking in the highest court of the land, that he will not seek ANY EXTENSION OF TENURE, but that he wants his DOB settled.

He has acted honourably, and the sad part is, that the flak for the malpractice and illegality committed by select generals and bureaucrats taking advantage of the same, is being borne by the political executive. Whichever officials are responsible should be strictly punished. They are taking advantage of a weakend union political executive, to advance their own insidious agenda.

Its time that it was recognised that the higher defence management must be reformed, and bureaucrats need to be eased out of MOD.

While that sentiment is as much mine that you have typed, the SC is very clear on the DoB corrections. There are multiple points here. Even the forces are divided on this.

SC has attributes "Honor and Morale" for the Army. One of the SC judges has said that the DoB issue was unnecessary. There are rules laid down by SC on the DoB change. SC judge said that the action has affected both honour and morale of the army. The DoB change at a later date normally affects a lot of promotions, which includes the promotions of a lot of capable men. He also said that some SC CJ's have been in office for just 10 days before retiring. The Army chief had almost 2.5 years for him.

As far as the govt is concerned, it will do everything to show that there is no division between govt (read the civilians) and the forces, which will affect the morale and discipline of the forces.

From the forces, which is now normally speaking through retired personnel, says that OROP, critical purchases etc should have been the focus of the chief and not his "personal" issue (Personal is a tag given by Gen VK Singh himself). DoB issue, for which "Honor" is cited as the main reason, they say that is not bigger than the organisational integrity. Service before self has been affected.

However, there are counter arguments too, but, as I understand, have been used before and the pillars (including SC/HC etc) have not taken a lenient view of it.

These are the reasons why I said that it will take a miracle.

The blame surely lies on the administration, however, we live in times, where Self before service is the motto of entire nation. Why should Army chief be denied the opportunity?

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 18 Jan 2012 09:14

Army Chief's age row: What some veterans feel

It has been a topic of heated discussion tinged with sadness among Army veterans too.

Here's a sampling of what many veterans feel.

Nitin Gokhale

http://nitinagokhale.blogspot.com/2012/ ... l?spref=tw

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 18 Jan 2012 09:29

Is there a fixed tenure for Chief of Army Staff?

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 18 Jan 2012 09:38

wiki says CoAS retires at 3 years or 62 whichever is earlier. For the VCoAS, I think retirement age is 60

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 18 Jan 2012 10:01

chackojoseph wrote: SC has attributes "Honor and Morale" for the Army. One of the SC judges has said that the DoB issue was unnecessary. There are rules laid down by SC on the DoB change. SC judge said that the action has affected both honour and morale of the army. The DoB change at a later date normally affects a lot of promotions, which includes the promotions of a lot of capable men. He also said that some SC CJ's have been in office for just 10 days before retiring. The Army chief had almost 2.5 years for him.

As far as the govt is concerned, it will do everything to show that there is no division between govt (read the civilians) and the forces, which will affect the morale and discipline of the forces.

From the forces, which is now normally speaking through retired personnel, says that OROP, critical purchases etc should have been the focus of the chief and not his "personal" issue (Personal is a tag given by Gen VK Singh himself). DoB issue, for which "Honor" is cited as the main reason, they say that is not bigger than the organisational integrity. Service before self has been affected.

However, there are counter arguments too, but, as I understand, have been used before and the pillars (including SC/HC etc) have not taken a lenient view of it.

These are the reasons why I said that it will take a miracle.

The blame surely lies on the administration, however, we live in times, where Self before service is the motto of entire nation. Why should Army chief be denied the opportunity?

How is fighting unjust actions (if deemed so by Gen.VKS) putting self before nation? Tomorrow someone will bring up, hiding of HR abuses to keep the honor of Army. This is the slippery slope of lying low in case of injustice. Extending tenure is a separate topic, General Singh has made it clear that it is the government's decision to decide on the tenure.

If there is intentional abuse of power to push incorrect DOB it is not a matter of his tenure only, if a COAS can be made to bow to pressure what to say of common man on street.

The chain of events for Dhananand's fall started with a case of "Disappeared" soldier in his service. In the scheme of things, it was "insignificant" which pointed to a larger malice. So in the same vein as you have passed judgement on VKS (self before nation), I am at liberty to state that you are supporting abuse of power.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jan 2012 10:17

CJ, The MS branch is the root of the dishonor of the service. We don't know how many other careers have been affected.

To me every problem has four aspects to it:
1)Technical/pertinent to the issue at hand,
2)systemic,
3)cost/financial and
4)emotions.

The MOD might have tackled the issue on first aspect but has not addressed the three other aspects and is caught flat footed. It has definitely failed on the emotions aspect and reinforced the bad image especially in this 50th anniversary of 1962.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jan 2012 10:22

Has anyone followed this news;

http://indianmilitarynews.wordpress.com ... secretary/

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 18 Jan 2012 10:33

tejas wrote:The problem here is how the electorate in India never seems to punish any political party for ignoring national security and demeaning the military.

The real problem is that too many Indians have a child-like trust in EVMs.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 18 Jan 2012 10:37

ramana wrote:Has anyone followed this news;

http://indianmilitarynews.wordpress.com ... secretary/

COAS sent the file back to MoD stating 'six months or six days' he will have an MS of his choice. The other person who is affected in this case is Lt Gen Hasnain. He is likely to take over if MoD prevails.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 18 Jan 2012 10:47

Over the past ten months when the DoB controversy has snowballed, two key players have maintained steely silence. They are Gen (retd) J J Singh and Gen (retd) Deepak Kapoor. If the Supreme Court accepts the CWP then there are chances that either or both of them will be summoned in their individual capacity. God forbid, that will be the lowest point yet in Indian Military history.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 18 Jan 2012 10:56

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 532464.cms

TIFWIW.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 18 Jan 2012 11:12

General Singh going to court and standing up against the GOI is the kind of image that a YO needs to see - to see that his/her Chief is a fighter, a man of honor and dignity and one who will not take things lying down. Whatever be the outcome of the case - as far as I'm concerned, the MAN has done the job - that is, to galvanize the army and make them reconnect with their ethos.

If the YOs are cheering for him, one only had to listen to the "lungar gup" or gossip about Deepak Kapoor or JJ Singh. Long before things about DK came out in public, the rank and file of IA were pretty much aware of his "caliber".

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 18 Jan 2012 11:37

prahaar wrote:How is fighting unjust actions (if deemed so by Gen.VKS) putting self before nation? Tomorrow someone will bring up, hiding of HR abuses to keep the honor of Army. This is the slippery slope of lying low in case of injustice. Extending tenure is a separate topic, General Singh has made it clear that it is the government's decision to decide on the tenure.

If there is intentional abuse of power to push incorrect DOB it is not a matter of his tenure only, if a COAS can be made to bow to pressure what to say of common man on street.

The chain of events for Dhananand's fall started with a case of "Disappeared" soldier in his service. In the scheme of things, it was "insignificant" which pointed to a larger malice. So in the same vein as you have passed judgement on VKS (self before nation), I am at liberty to state that you are supporting abuse of power.

As per SC judge, if the age had affected his promotions, it was a good case. However, the age hasn't been a problem.

Secondly, fighting ill's in the organisation has sadly become a virtue rather than duty. Here is where I differ from others. VKS did his duty, where as others appear to have not done their duty. The risk comes inherent with the job. At the same time, IMO, he should be given some 'personal' immunity.

You can be at a liberty to state whatever you can. However, from My POV, I have merely stated what I have learn't from this, which I already said may not be my personal opinion. personally I have been skeptical of the govt.

ramana,

It is not just MS branch. Entire government machinery is reeling under it. On this specific problem, MS is not acting alone. There is hell lot of inputs from the Army itself. Aren't we accusing certain chiefs of being involved the propagation of the problem? Are there honest appraisals within the force? Do you even know what happens to the lower rank when they try to expose irregularities in Military messes, canteens , CSD etc? This is not to say, if VKS or Govt is at fault.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 18 Jan 2012 11:41

Hitting the General below the belt

Before Army chief General Vijay Kumar Singh’s doughty daughter landed up at the Supreme Court registry to file a writ petition on behalf of her father on Monday evening, the officer wrote to Defence Minister A K Antony that he was taking legal recourse in the age issue.
General Singh informed Antony that he had been forced to go to the court to prevent a possible adverse legal fallout of another petition filed before by the Rohtak chapter of the so-called Grenadiers Association and with which he had no truck in any way. It is another matter that a court insider leaked the news of General Singh going to court to TV news channels much before his letter reached Antony on Monday.

General Singh was advised by his lawyers that his legal options on the date of birth issue would be closed if the Supreme Court took up the Grenadiers Association’s petition as it was rather insidious and factually inaccurate in many places. For instance, the association’s petition stated that Lt. General Bikramjeet Singh, presently Eastern Army Commander and in line for the Army Chief’s job, was related to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.

Given such inaccuracies, the Supreme Court in all probability would have taken a rather poor view of the submission and would have foreclosed all options for General Singh. Now that General Singh has sought legal remedy to determine whether he was born in 1950 or 1951, it would be interesting to shed light on the behind the scenes and unsuccessful dialogue between him and the government over what the he terms as an honour and integrity issue. General Singh in his petition has sought interim relief from the court over the rejection of his statutory complaint on the age issue by the Defence Minister on December 30, 2011. After General Singh filed his statutory complaint before Antony on August 25, 2011, he met UPA wise man and Finance Minister Pranab Mukherjee and told him what he had done.

Mukherjee looked at General Singh and said that he took this statutory complaint as an opportunity and not a challenge for the government. General Singh told Mukherjee that the complaint was only aimed at rectifying his age and not programmed to increase his tenure as Army Chief — a matter which is the prerogative of the government. For the next four months, a key government interlocutor and a close friend of Singh played the messenger in the hope that an amicable compromise could be reached. The interlocutor failed. Not because his or General Singh’s intentions were not honourable but because the UPA has now acquired the habit of speaking in multiple voices.

The final straw for the Chief was a series of slanderous media articles this month which led him to believe that they were being orchestrated by the Defence Ministry. Before General Singh went on an official visit to Myanmar on January 5 he met National Security Advisor Shiv Shanker Menon. Sharp as he is, Menon suggested that the government would come out with a statement making it amply clear that age was not the issue and that it wanted General Singh for other services preferably in the civilian set-up. As the idea was fair, General Singh agreed to it with a single caveat. He said as long as the government agreed that his date of birth was 1951 he was even willing to resign and pave way for whomsoever the UPA wanted to appoint as Army Chief. General Singh returned from Myanmar on January 9 and met Mukherjee, who assured him that he was on the job and solution soon would be found to the age issue.

In the meantime, senior UPA ministers including Antony, P Chidambaram and Salman Khurshid prepared for stage two by calling General Singh a very competent soldier. A solution was in sight and the interlocutor was toiling hard, but then came the series of slanted media articles, which the Army suspects the Defence Ministry of inspiring and that hit at General Singh’s personal integrity. A day before the Army Day on January 15, Antony gave a dressing down to all his officers and made it clear that not a word should be leaked by his ministry. But the damage had been done.

General Singh was awarded the Yudh Seva Medal in 1989-90, the Ati Vasisht Seva Medal in 2006 and the Param Vishisht Seva Medal in 2009 by the President of India with his date of birth May 10, 1951 mentioned on them, but still the inspired media articles took pot shots at him. After hosting At-Home for the President, the Prime Minister and Congress president Sonia Gandhi, General Singh decided to take on his detractors. The writ petition was drafted by 3.00 am on Monday morning and submitted before the Court on the same day.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 18 Jan 2012 11:47

chackojoseph wrote:While that sentiment is as much mine that you have typed, the SC is very clear on the DoB corrections. There are multiple points here. Even the forces are divided on this.

SC has attributes "Honor and Morale" for the Army. One of the SC judges has said that the DoB issue was unnecessary. There are rules laid down by SC on the DoB change. SC judge said that the action has affected both honour and morale of the army. The DoB change at a later date normally affects a lot of promotions, which includes the promotions of a lot of capable men. He also said that some SC CJ's have been in office for just 10 days before retiring. The Army chief had almost 2.5 years for him.

As far as the govt is concerned, it will do everything to show that there is no division between govt (read the civilians) and the forces, which will affect the morale and discipline of the forces.

From the forces, which is now normally speaking through retired personnel, says that OROP, critical purchases etc should have been the focus of the chief and not his "personal" issue (Personal is a tag given by Gen VK Singh himself). DoB issue, for which "Honor" is cited as the main reason, they say that is not bigger than the organisational integrity. Service before self has been affected.

However, there are counter arguments too, but, as I understand, have been used before and the pillars (including SC/HC etc) have not taken a lenient view of it.

These are the reasons why I said that it will take a miracle.

The blame surely lies on the administration, however, we live in times, where Self before service is the motto of entire nation. Why shld Army chief be denied the opportunity?

If one see the arguments of Attorney General Vahanvati, many of his conclusions & recommendations to Gov on this issue are based on frivolous assumptions. I don't know AG can steep that low. Looks deliberate and motivated move. My point is Gov took stand based AG recommendations. Earlier Law ministry was in favour of Gen VKS, later changed its stand due to political compulsions. As i see it, it won't stand a chance against reams of facts provided by Gen VKS for SC perusal.

As i see, you are again basing your argument based on "DoB Change". Everyone by now knows that it not "DoB Change" but mere correction of entry in one department files.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 18 Jan 2012 12:01

>>If the YOs are cheering for him, one only had to listen to the "lungar gup" or gossip about Deepak Kapoor or JJ Singh. Long before things about DK came out in public, the rank and file of IA were pretty much aware of his "caliber".

Ah, now DK name is coming out in open more often in this controversy. Ajai Shukla wrote another hard hitting article on dubious promotions which again point out DK name. Wonder why Gen Panag charges against DK was not considered even after he presented facts on his wrong doings to St Antony? Why he did not act at that time. There are many more skeletons to tumble out!

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 18 Jan 2012 12:04

chetak wrote:Hitting the General below the belt

In the meantime, senior UPA ministers including Antony, P Chidambaram and Salman Khurshid prepared for stage two by calling General Singh a very competent soldier. A solution was in sight and the interlocutor was toiling hard, but then came the series of slanted media articles, which the Army suspects the Defence Ministry of inspiring and that hit at General Singh’s personal integrity. A day before the Army Day on January 15, Antony gave a dressing down to all his officers and made it clear that not a word should be leaked by his ministry. But the damage had been done.

General Singh was awarded the Yudh Seva Medal in 1989-90, the Ati Vasisht Seva Medal in 2006 and the Param Vishisht Seva Medal in 2009 by the President of India with his date of birth May 10, 1951 mentioned on them, but still the inspired media articles took pot shots at him. After hosting At-Home for the President, the Prime Minister and Congress president Sonia Gandhi, General Singh decided to take on his detractors. The writ petition was drafted by 3.00 am on Monday morning and submitted before the Court on the same day.

Gen Thimayya treatment?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 18 Jan 2012 12:13

Kanson wrote:If one see the arguments of Attorney General Vahanvati, many of his conclusions & recommendations to Gov on this issue are based on frivolous assumptions. I don't know AG can steep that low. Looks deliberate and motivated move. My point is Gov took stand based AG recommendations. Earlier Law ministry was in favour of Gen VKS, later changed its stand due to political compulsions. As i see it, it won't stand a chance against reams of facts provided by Gen VKS for SC perusal.

As i see, you are again basing your argument based on "DoB Change". Everyone by now knows that it not "DoB Change" but mere correction of entry in one department files.

What should be there and what is exactly there is causing difference in perception and angst. What is exactly there is the cause of this problem and what should be there is what is the future direction. This is what I am trying to put up here. people might not be actually steeping low and going by the procedure, in this case an acceptance by VKS. Just an example. You are in charge. You have an acceptance letter from VKS and the letter for change/correction of DoB has not either reached you or has reached, but, is subject to other considerations and debates.

1) Since DoB is correctly lodged in most documents, it will be interesting to see why the DOB correction was not affected and the compulsions there off for VKS to say ok. If there is an clerical error in the DoB, why did it happen and why was it not corrected?
2) Will it establish a precedent in age corrections? SC has had its past reasons for the current opinion. Will this change. After all, VKS is asking for a correction without effecting his tenure.
3) What extent will govt go to protect its supremacy.

I am more interested in looking how its been played out. last time I was interested when the world wide recession set in and it was interesting to see the fiscal and monetary policies being adjusted, something which I have read during my management course. This VKS issue could be a history in making. So, just grab a popcorn and enjoy the show.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 18 Jan 2012 12:46

rohitvats wrote:General Singh going to court and standing up against the GOI is the kind of image that a YO needs to see - to see that his/her Chief is a fighter, a man of honor and dignity and one who will not take things lying down. Whatever be the outcome of the case - as far as I'm concerned, the MAN has done the job - that is, to galvanize the army and make them reconnect with their ethos.

If the YOs are cheering for him, one only had to listen to the "lungar gup" or gossip about Deepak Kapoor or JJ Singh. Long before things about DK came out in public, the rank and file of IA were pretty much aware of his "caliber".

Sad that it has come to such a pass without the MOD pulling their finger out of their collective asses but I have to agree with you.

The General has been done a very grave injustice, all in the silly game of so called civilian supremacy without any of the civilians even understanding the very basic meaning of civilian supremacy.

Gen VK Singh has every right to seek legal recourse.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Jan 2012 13:24

What would be interesting to see if if Court accepts VKS argument for 1951 as DOB then what impact will it have on career and promotions of other officers at that point in time when 1950 was the basis used for promotion for VKS.

May be we would see lot of cases filed if that dates leads to Seniority dispute among other officers serving at that point in time

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 18 Jan 2012 13:34

nelson wrote:In all probability the DOB issue will see a General going to the court. If govt accedes to VKS's extension then BS will go to court. If VKS accedes to Govt's suggestion of honourable retirement in May 12 then KTP will go to court. As it is if govt stays dumbwitted VKS is going to court.

Now that VKS has gone to court, I will update my earlier post.

In all probability the DOB issue will see two Generals going to the court. If court decides in VKS favour and forces govt to ensure VKS's extension then BS will go to court. Else, KTP will go to court?