Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 15 Jan 2012 14:29

sum wrote:^^ Huh, Wasnt the SRSAM a done deal with DRDO-MBDA JV?

Apparantly the Army cannot wait. And this deal will move because our edjucated politikans will think they need it to save their souls.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 15 Jan 2012 17:41

rajanb wrote:
sum wrote:^^ Huh, Wasnt the SRSAM a done deal with DRDO-MBDA JV?
Apparantly the Army cannot wait. And this deal will move because our edjucated politikans will think they need it to save their souls.

Well, I think this is the reason why IA cannot wait:

The Army convinced the Indian Defence Ministry there is an urgent requirement for SRSAM, said Army sources, and did not want to wait for the Maitri project conceived four years ago. India and France have not been able to agree on details of the Maitri project, including funding arrangements, the source added.

So, if this is the state of affairs with the project which was conceived four years ago, can anyone put his neck out and say with confidence when the SR-SAM development under Maitri Project will see light of the day?

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 15 Jan 2012 18:30

rohitvats wrote:[quote="rajanb

Apparantly the Army cannot wait. And this deal will move because our edjucated politikans will think they need it to save their souls.[/quote]

Well, I think this is the reason why IA cannot wait:

The Army convinced the Indian Defence Ministry there is an urgent requirement for SRSAM, said Army sources, and did not want to wait for the Maitri project conceived four years ago. India and France have not been able to agree on details of the Maitri project, including funding arrangements, the source added.

So, if this is the state of affairs with the project which was conceived four years ago, can anyone put his neck out and say with confidence when the SR-SAM development under Maitri Project will see light of the day?[/quote]

I know Rohit.

Am just venting because it seems to take so long to get anywhere. Four years!

Also, no money for the extra troops against China, Karwar Port, MMRCA? etc. Where is the sense of urgency? only when we get attacked then we run around buying stuff last minute. And we all know why!

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 15 Jan 2012 19:18

And we all know why!

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 16 Jan 2012 00:12

Singha wrote:looks like A5 will be equivalent of our TopolM - 1-3 warheads but +decoys and high speed and t:w ratio.
the K4 will be fatter and meatier, with a 'proper' MIRV capability.

Agni-V launch soon: DRDO

Agni-V, the 5,000-km version of the nuclear capable missile, is in the final phase of testing and is soon set for launch, a senior DRDO official said here today.
“Agni-V is in the final phase of testing. I cannot predict the exact date of its launch, but it will be launched shortly,” Chief Controller R and D (Missiles and Strategic Systems) at DRDO, Avinash Chander, said.
.....
The three-stage Agni-V and the two-stage Agni-IV are poised to add credible deterrence against countries which have missiles like the 11,200-km Dong Feng-31A, Mr. Chander said.
Agni-V will feature Multiple Independently-Targeted Re-entry Vehicles (MIRVs) with each missile being capable of carrying 3-10 separate warheads.

PTI reports A5 (test?) will be MIRVed !!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Jan 2012 07:58

AoA. wise decision as K4 is probably 5-7 years away from first deterrent patrol.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 16 Jan 2012 08:24

Lilo wrote:PTI reports A5 (test?) will be MIRVed !!

Now way. There was an earlier report that said, someone high above prevented the Agni-V from MIRVed. And then they are planning to have it in A-6. So all you Abdul's, Mullah's, Adminullah's and Ayatollahs will have to wait till the arrival of A-6.

Agni-V's detonator developed in Chandigarh lab
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 505859.cms
CHANDIGARH: A DRDO lab in the city, Terminal Ballistics Research Laboratory (TBRL) has developed the detonator which can trigger the explosive in a nuclear warhead and account for the successful take off of Agni-V -- a 5,000km range nuclear missile.
The 50 tonne missile has a longer range than its previous versions. Though not much ambitious about entering the elite inter continental ballistic missile (ICBM) club, which includes the US, Russia and China, Chander added, "We do not need the ICBM, as we do not perceive such a threat.

But Agni-V shows our capability in marching towards this way."
So sad that our scientists have to make such statement of not needing an ICBM. The politicos are the most spineless lot. They make us go from A-1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12. I don't know whether i'll be alive when the A-12 ICBM makes its first flight. ok Atleast after the Agni-V, it must have been a true ICBM. Since NPA's have give the Indian ICBM a beautiful name called Surya, i would suggest to have such a name, that will tell it's capability of creating a Surya on earth and be a good deterrent. So hope after A-5 or A-6, they will go for the Surya with reach that will cover the whole world and provide India the credible nuclear deterrent. Hope such a missile will get inducted by 2020.

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 16 Jan 2012 09:10

Hope such a missile will get inducted by 2020.

I think by 2020 they will induct the idea of Surya.

vic · Post by **vic** » 16 Jan 2012 09:56

pankajs wrote:CCS nod for missile deal for Mirages
NEW DELHI: The Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) has approved the $1.2 billion deal for the new weapon compliment for the Mirage 2000 fighter jets of the Indian Air Force (IAF) that will give the aircraft a superior firepower capability to hit the enemy beyond its visual range.

Along with the earlier contract signed with French firms valuing $2.4 billion, it is the second largest defence deal signed with France after the project to construct six Scorpene submarines at the Mazagon Docks Limited (MDL) costing $5.23 billion. The deal was the main highlight of the visit of French President Nicholas Sarkozy to India, but could not be finalised owing to price issues. Under the contract, the IAF will be procuring about 500 air-to-air missiles from French armament firm MBDA. While MBDA will be the weapon provider, French company Thales will be the weapon integrator.

According to sources, the CCS chaired by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh cleared the Euro 950 million ($1.2 billion) deal for acquisition of 490 MICA missiles.

The IAF presently has 51 Mirage fighter jets in its inventory and they will be undergoing upgrades at the cost of $ 1.47 billion, as per a contract signed in 2011. Already two aircraft have flown to France for upgradation. The remaining aircraft will be modernised here in India at the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). The upgradation of the entire fleet is expected to be completed by mid-2021.

The missile deal also entails 30 percent offsets, which means that MBDA will be investing $ 410.7 million in the Indian defence sector. The Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) makes it mandatory for foreign vendors getting contracts upwards of `300 crore to invest 30 percent of the value of the deal in the domestic defence industry, including civil aerospace and homeland security.

IIRC the deal for derby missiles was for US$ 25 million for around 20 missiles for Harriers in 2005. This shows that French products are around 50% to 75% more costly then Israeli ones after adjusting for some inflation.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Jan 2012 10:00

So its a High Voltage Detonator being used for the payload and some parts of AV. Only thing is the F/S of the AV will have an igniter and not a HVD.

If you read his exact quote its only about the payload section and not the takeoff. So most likely DDM extrapolation.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Jan 2012 10:16

if 50 mirages need 500 aam (10 per a/c) then 126 will need 1260. if amraam is as costly as mica, just the aam bill alone will be $2.5b and then 1000s of paveways, sdb, asraam/aim9x for sure. the armaments to equip the MRCA properly would tip the scales at a hefty $7.5-10b range.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 16 Jan 2012 12:08

126 MMRCA will be Tejas Mk1 armed with Astra.

So no money to be made.

member_21708 · Post by **member_21708** » 16 Jan 2012 12:29

Agni-V launch soon: DRDO

Chandigarh, Jan 15 (PTI)

Agni-V, the 5,000-km version of the nuclear capable missile, is in the final phase of testing and is soon set for launch, a senior DRDO official said here today.

"Agni-V is in the final phase of testing. I cannot predict the exact date of its launch, but it will be launched shortly," Chief Controller R and D (Missiles and Strategic Systems) at DRDO, Avinash Chander, said.

He was addressing a press conference at the Terminal Ballistics Research Laboratory to mark the conclusion of its year-long golden jubilee celebrations,

Agni-V, touted as India's most ambitious strategic missile, will follow last year's test of the country's most advanced surface-to-surface missile Agni-IV.

The three-stage Agni-V and the two-stage Agni-IV are poised to add credible deterrence against countries which have missiles like the 11,200-km Dong Feng-31A, Chander said.

Agni-V will feature Multiple Independently-Targeted Re-entry Vehicles (MIRVs) with each missile being capable of carrying 3-10 separate warheads.

To a question, Chander said "we have Rs 20,000 crore worth production orders for Akash missile."

"By 2020, India will be among the leading countries in the missile development," he said.

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/219 ... -drdo.html

koti · Post by **koti** » 16 Jan 2012 13:08

Agni-V will feature Multiple Independently-Targeted Re-entry Vehicles (MIRVs) with each missile being capable of carrying 3-10 separate warheads.

Is it a necessity that all the MIRV should be of the same weight?

If so we can assume that we are looking at a 150-200 Kg Nuclear payload.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Jan 2012 13:19

vic wrote:IIRC the deal for derby missiles was for US$ 25 million for around 20 missiles for Harriers in 2005. This shows that French products are around 50% to 75% more costly then Israeli ones after adjusting for some inflation.

French equipment have known to be costly right from Mirage days which was the most expensive defence deal we did at that time and it continues to be so now as M2K upgrade and MICA deal will tell you.

But their equipment are very reliable and are not prone to sanctions.

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 16 Jan 2012 19:25

koti wrote:
Agni-V will feature Multiple Independently-Targeted Re-entry Vehicles (MIRVs) with each missile being capable of carrying 3-10 separate warheads.
Is it a necessity that all the MIRV should be of the same weight?

If so we can assume that we are looking at a 150-200 Kg Nuclear payload.

No, all MIRV warheads do not have to be of the same weight - and they travel at the same velocity in spae due to lack of air friction. When they enter atmosphere, the duds fall behind as they lack mass, while the actual warheads, being heavier, fall faster. However, by that time, it is already too late as the flight time inside atmosphere is measured in seconds, not minutes.

KBDagha · Post by **KBDagha** » 16 Jan 2012 23:30

I have uploaded the pic of Brahmos MRV

. It's not a high resolution one

. Refer the link below:

http://khambat-dagha.blogspot.com/view/ ... s-mrv.html

Regards

Avid · Post by **Avid** » 17 Jan 2012 00:02

I see the MIRV statement as a signal indicating the range of warhead payload sizes.

Considering 3 to 10 statement, we are looking at nuclear payload of 100 to 300 kg. This would be in line with the assessments that have been made on BR about possible payload of around 300 kg for the thermonuclear warhead.

Go backwards and apply that to the range calculations of A1, A2, A3 and A4 that have been posted before by Arun_S. I think they are being honest in suggesting that we do not foresee need for ranges >A5, if it is to be equipped with a single 300Kg warhead.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 18 Jan 2012 15:07

US says it is open to work with India on missile shield
TOI

The offer was made by deputy assistant secretary of defence Robert Scher who said that the Indo-US defence ties were valuable and critical not only for the security and stability of the region, but globally.

"We are really open to it. And this is something we ask to and ask them if they are interested in it," Scher said on collaboration on the missile shield project in an interview to PTI, emphasising that US "is and will be a dependable weapons supplier to India."

The top Pentagon official disclosed that Washington and New Delhi had been involved in crucial discussion on the ballistic missile shield, adding that the US was looking forward to "restart" the dialogue.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 18 Jan 2012 18:27

~~US says it is open to work with India on missile shield~~
buy downgraded patriot from us at exorbitant prices and shut down your own BMD programs

translated.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 18 Jan 2012 18:41

Since we have so far rejected all second rate stuff from the US, I see no reason why we'll go ahead and collaborate in a program of such high priority as the missile shield.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 18 Jan 2012 18:57

Nihat wrote:Since we have so far rejected all second rate stuff from the US, I see no reason why we'll go ahead and collaborate in a program of such high priority as the missile shield.

You are under estimating GoI

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 18 Jan 2012 19:49

You are under estimating GoI

Is that possible

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 18 Jan 2012 20:11

shukla wrote:US says it is open to work with India on missile shield[/b][/url]
TOI

Just neglect such news. The U.S did offer this when we announced our BMD program and when the tests were going on. They will keep making such offers to kill the Indian BMD program. At the moment its better to neglect this useless news.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 19 Jan 2012 08:27

shukla wrote:US says it is open to work with India on missile shield

US should be open to work with India to invade Pakistan.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 19 Jan 2012 15:49

US has long been looking for a collaborative project to get their tentacles into DRDO which has a history of collaborative missile development projects with Russians, Israelis and French. We better keep them at bay unless we want to compromise our strategic assets, the people who work in thse projects.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jan 2012 17:25

the new tender for SRSAM is likely just paperwork to follow the process...the IA will pickup more Spyder systems for sure...to add to their old order.

the failure of Trishul still rankles with me. this is a product that could have been produced in the 1000s for IA/IN/IAF. and might have formed the basis of Astra (or vice versa)

either way the failure to make Trishul, a good IIR AAM and Astra operational a lot quicker is one our of biggest setbacks. because of no Astra we are again left with a zoo of AAMs for next decade - AA10, AA12, Mica, Matra530 and now maybe amraamC7 also. no IIR AAM -> matra550, MicaIR, asraam, aa11......

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 19 Jan 2012 23:34

shukla wrote:US says it is open to work with India on missile shield
TOI

Weeks after offering to sell its F-35 fifth generation fighter jets, the US today said it was open to work with India on joint development of a ballistic missile shield.

As long it involves only sub systems, it is Ok.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 19 Jan 2012 23:39

No subsystem sarjee, only technology. We need to build everything from the scratch here in India and have control on the whole system.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 20 Jan 2012 03:36

Singha wrote:
the failure of Trishul still rankles with me. this is a product that could have been produced in the 1000s for IA/IN/IAF. and might have formed the basis of Astra (or vice versa)

either way the failure to make Trishul, a good IIR AAM and Astra operational a lot quicker is one our of biggest setbacks. because of no Astra we are again left with a zoo of AAMs for next decade - AA10, AA12, Mica, Matra530 and now maybe amraamC7 also. no IIR AAM -> matra550, MicaIR, asraam, aa11......

Agreed. The Achilles heel of our missile development program has been seekers. IMVHO, DRDO should dedicate a nodal organization for research purely on seekers (on the lines of ARDE, LRDE etc). Its possible that Research Center Imarat is the chief lab for this, but I am not sure.

We have taken some baby steps with IIR and MMW seekers for the Nag/Helina program but there is a long way to go. Since we seem to have matured reasonably with propulsion, fuselage design & maneuverability of missiles (with AAD, Akash and Astra programs), once we master seekers, an entire world of possibilities open up. We could mix-n-match these and roll off new types of missiles & PGMs rapidly.

I am not sure if Trishul, even if successful, would have led to anything better. Its a command guidance based missile. With Akash, we have a reasonably good idea of how this model works. Trishul wouldnt have added much to this.

Its my earnest hope that the MRSAM project with Israel gives us access to seeker technology.

saurav.jha · Post by **saurav.jha** » 20 Jan 2012 06:44

BEL-Rafael venture ‘seeks’ third partner to make missile seekers

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/com ... 811779.ece

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 20 Jan 2012 10:17

What i don't understand is why BEL needs Rafael as partner in making missile seeker, while DRDO has already developed the same. Is this the similar story of importing and branding stuff indigenous which BEL has done many times before?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Jan 2012 10:20

A lab makes lab model which takes a long while to productionize. So if they can get collaboration from another supplier its good.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 22 Jan 2012 17:38

Singha wrote:the failure of Trishul still rankles with me. this is a product that could have been produced in the 1000s for IA/IN/IAF. and might have formed the basis of Astra (or vice versa)

Small correction. The product was completed. It was late hence the requirements changed.

member_20296 · Post by **member_20296** » 22 Jan 2012 19:06

Pls we want canisterised missile launch this time for Agni-5

vic · Post by **vic** » 24 Jan 2012 20:43

I was wondering whether Pinaka -2 is different missile/rocket or Pinaka 2 = Prahaar???

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 24 Jan 2012 21:04

India's latest n-capable missile to be showcased on R'Day

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Jan 2012 21:07

afaik the A5 was designed from day1 as a cansister launched road mobile thing, so we will likely get your wish.
Shourya too did not have any 'exposed' tests, it was cansister launched from day1.

the lack of any noises about operationalizing Shourya and moving it into mass production might indicate some indecision about its exact role and value in the deterrence matrix though. perhaps it might find use a ASBM or anti-SAM missile bearing conventional warheads if the nuclear forces do not want it.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Jan 2012 22:27

Or debate is over and moving along fine.

VinayG · Post by **VinayG** » 27 Jan 2012 05:16

any update / induction date / info /detailed info about prahaar please