Solar energy in India

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Prem
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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Prem » 06 Jan 2012 01:52

Bajwa Sahib, If you have access to the empty land in Punjab/ Haryana/ Himachal , solar/wind energy power plant can be put free and attached to the grid.

Theo_Fidel

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Theo_Fidel » 06 Jan 2012 02:09

Reading a story that even the Adani's have built their plants but can't run it because no coal. Why exactly are we building more coal plants when we can't get more coal.

It is a shock to me that a modern coal plant needs 2,000+ acres of land. This is in addition to the mines. We could put in a 500MW nominal solar plant on that which would be the equivalent of 200MW of coal, assuming you get coal. The farmers could grow vege's below the panels and get paid to clean & maintain them as well. At present rates this would only cost about Rs 4,000 crore. Far less than the coal plant.
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In India we are so short of power most people would be comfortable with just 8AM to 6PM electricity. Maybe if GOI wants to be nice add in some storage and make it a 10PM electricity band. This argument over base power and intermittent power is less meaningful in India.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Prem » 06 Jan 2012 02:35

Coal is being sourced from Asurtalia to Indonesia to South Africa.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 29708.html
Coal India Eyes Stakes in South Africa Mines
NEW DELHI – Coal India Ltd. is considering acquiring stakes in mines in South Africa in a joint venture with the provincial government of Limpopo, the company's chairman Nirmal Chandra Jha said Thursday.
"The proposal is likely to be considered by our board in a meeting later this month," Mr. Jha said.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Dhiman » 06 Jan 2012 10:50

Theo_Fidel wrote:In India we are so short of power most people would be comfortable with just 8AM to 6PM electricity. Maybe if GOI wants to be nice add in some storage and make it a 10PM electricity band. This argument over base power and intermittent power is less meaningful in India.


Back in my young days, whenever electricity went out during peak summer night (since people are running AC more and more), the fan stopped working and I started sweating big time while sleeping since night time in Delhi can be 40+ Celsius. Once I decided to take a bath around 12pm in night to cool myself down. That didn't work out well since the water that came out of the tap was still quite hot in middle of night and instead it warmed me up even more :rotfl:

As far as I know GoI is aiming to satisfy electricity demand 24x7, but off course if getting Coal is going to be a problem then this needs to be reassessed and Solar would sounds great. Otherwise there is an issue of doubling the capital expenditure required.

For example, Tata's "Ultra-Mega" coal fired power plant in Gujarat is costing around US $4.2 Billion and can produce 4GW of power anytime as long as Coal is available. If this plant only operates during nighttime, then one needs make an additional $4 billion capital expenditure for Solar panels (@ $1 a watt international prices), so $8Billion for 4 GW of electricity 24x7 instead of $4Billion capital expenditure if Coal supply was assured.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby chaanakya » 06 Jan 2012 11:41

Does all this discussion mean that only viable option remain is that of Nuclear Power as Japan adopted it after Oil shock to ensure import independence in energy sector??

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Dhiman » 06 Jan 2012 13:36

chaanakya wrote:Does all this discussion mean that only viable option remain is that of Nuclear Power as Japan adopted it after Oil shock to ensure import independence in energy sector??


Japan only produces 27% of its electricity from nuclear (imported uranium), while around 60% of Japan's electricity comes from imported coal, gas, and oil. France by comparison produces 80% of its electricity from nuclear.

India has proven coal reserves for next 50 years at the very least, but the coal mining industry is in bad shape and full of corruption, so we have coal shortage. Power plants cannot be supplied in time and also not in proper quantities. So GoI is now starting to import coal.

After say 50 to 70 years, all the coal in India will be gone and if needed, we can import coal from elsewhere for next 30 to 50 years at which point the world will start running out of coal and all the oil and gas would also be gone.

At that point, unless any new sources of energy come online, the only thing we will have is solar and thorium. Thorium will take us for around 200 years. Once that is gone only solar will be left (and some power from wind, tidal, hydro, and maybe people paddling their bicycle to generate electricity through a dynamo :| )

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby chaanakya » 06 Jan 2012 20:45

^^ Prior to oil shock in 1970 electricity from Oil based Generation Plant was more and most of it imported from ME.
Now electricity generation from oil is reduced and is less than 11%. On the other hand electricity from Nuclear sources rose after 1970 from almost zero to about 30% in 2010 ( 27% in 2008) however reducing post fukushima. With zero domestic coal production, Thermal plants are dependent on coal import from Aus,Indo, Malay etc., unavoidable as it is.

About Nuclear , Japan had plans to raise it to 50% in energy mix by 2030 to reduce dependence on coal as well. Now that is on hold as well . Emphasis is on RE sources and given technological strength, it might come out with surprising solutions. The main policy remains to reduce dependence on import.

They had no issues with Uranium as Japan is a major partner to USA so they did not worry.



some detailed analysis by METI
http://www.meti.go.jp/english/press/dat ... 15_04a.pdf

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Theo_Fidel » 06 Jan 2012 21:05

90% plus of Indian folk actually manage with no fan. Down here in Hot Humid TN we would kill for the dry heat of Delhi where you don't sweat constantly. Most poor sleep outside and I do it all the time when I'm in India and believe me it is not as uncomfortable as sleeping inside. Can even be quite pleasant. Good mosquito net necessary. It is our modern poorly designed apartments that cause heat stress.

Well, GOI has been planning 24x7 power for 60+ years now. Demand always stays ahead. I say we settle for what we can get.

WRT coal see my calculated numbers above. As more and more coal import happens prices are now spiking. Australian Coal spiked to above $150 per ton in 2008 and is now about $120 per ton. So if we resort to importing 1/2 our needs for 150,000 MW of new coal plants, we would import roughly 300 Million tonnes at a cost of $40-$50 Billion every year. And this is not even counting domestic coal mining damage.

We could take that $40 Billion per year and install roughly 25,000 MW of PV/CSP per year. At PLF of 25% vs coals PLF of 75% this would be an effective capacity addition of 8,000 MW.

India's position is not dissimilar to Japan other than Coal.
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Chanaakya,

It has to be Nuclear or Solar/Wind for India. We could do Nuclear+Solar and I suspect we will try that, but there are some serious economic head winds against going Nuclear. The entire scaling problem is a tough nut to crack. And we don't have enough domestic uranium so can easily end up in the same boat as Coal.

Thorium is still in research phase. If we fully burn Thorium we could potentially power ourselves for 2000 years. But this would need about 200 reactors just by 2035! It is not going to be here on time. And it is not even clear the Thorium cycle can be implemented economically. Not to mention safely, esp. with the molten sodium at 440C (800k) there some serious material issues long term.

Thorium + Sodium has been tried out about 30 times by my count by about 12 different countries around the world. All have ended research with very disappointing breeding results and devastating fire after fire after fire. This tell me there are serious material physical limits being violated here, esp. WRT safety. The LFTR shills want us to double down and raise the operating temperature to 600C using a corrosive fluoride salt to solve problems with molten sodium. BTW that molten fluoride salt can not contact water or even the slightest trace of water vapor in the air or it forms HF, that viciously corrosive and fatal acid. Why exactly this is an improvement over molten Sodium is never mentioned.

Compare that to a $100 (check latest ISuppli estimate) for a 250 watt PV panel, that can scale from 1 panel to a 5 million panel (1000 MW) and well beyond with no real changes to design architecture.

Theo_Fidel

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Theo_Fidel » 07 Jan 2012 00:15

Meanwhile...

In what has to be the oddest moves ever, ex-AEC member is now in charge of Solar power! Anyone know about him. Who thought up this bizarre move.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/pm-a ... 67425.html

PM Manmohan Singh appoints nuclear scientist Anil Kakodkar as national solar mission head

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby ramana » 07 Jan 2012 02:36

He is a good man and will do the job to lead the NSM.

Theo_Fidel

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Theo_Fidel » 07 Jan 2012 03:39

Thanx Ramana,

DDM is going crazy with CT's about how this is a move to kill the program.
I'm not so sure. He served Nuclear well, and now he will serve Solar just as well.

I hope he brings a no-nonsense attitude to straighten out the financing situation.
Need to see how he performs.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Dhiman » 07 Jan 2012 10:26

Theo_Fidel wrote:Well, GOI has been planning 24x7 power for 60+ years now. Demand always stays ahead. I say we settle for what we can get.


It turns out that even solar can give 24x7 power without adding any storage. For example if Brazilian electric grid is linked to Indian electric grid, then Brazil will supply India will solar electricity during night and India will supply Brazil with solar electricity during day.

Given that laying cables under the ocean is quite common, one could create a whole damn grid under the ocean. :idea:

Even Sharks could have light then. Damn, I wish I could patent this :rotfl:

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby member_21708 » 07 Jan 2012 22:50

Delhi’s rooftop solar power policy a non-starter
It seemed to be the panacea for the capital’s power woes, but seven months down the line the Delhi government’s ambitious plan to generate electricity by installing solar panels on rooftops of houses has not taken off. The reason? “It’s not cost effective”, an official said.

“If you talk about the solar power scenario in the country, we have a long way to go. Even the European countries have not been able to implement it. It was just a proposal which is not viable,” a Delhi government official told IANS.

Chief Minister Sheila Dikshit had announced in May that her government would soon introduce a scheme for setting up solar power units on the rooftops of households.

According to the policy, residents could earn money by selling electricity to power distribution companies (discoms). The discoms could deduct from the electricity bill the amount the house owner earned from the solar unit.

However, the officials said the per unit cost of generating power from a rooftop plant was Rs.17.50, thus making it unviable for the discoms.

“The cost of generating electricity is too high. This is not economically viable and cost effective, though it’s an environment friendly alternative source of energy,” the official said.

Under the policy, by signing a Power Purchase Agreement (PPA) with the company supplying power in their areas, residents could get solar power plants installed on their rooftops.

The cost of setting up such a plant over an area of 200 square metres was estimated at Rs.8-9 lakh.

House owners could either lease out their roofs to a developer, who would set up the unit or set it up themselves.

“The government is yet to chalk out plans to implement the policy. It has to be done in collaboration with the ministry of new and renewable energy. It may be completed by 2017,” another official added.

http://zeenews.india.com/news/eco-news/ ... 49749.html

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby devaraj_d » 09 Jan 2012 02:04

Theo_Fidel wrote:Yes, Solar PV is very expensive, need at least 1.5 lakhs for a 2 kva system w/ battery. Though it may have dropped a bit the recent declines. The huge problem is net-metering is not allowed in India, meaning you use the grid to balance your output rather than a battery. GOI is now finally working on this problem. I would not recommend residential PV in India right now unless you have money to burn. The pay-back period is unrealistic, often in the 15-20 year range.

I would strongly recommend solar water heaters. If you have an electric Geyser you would be surprised how much it consumes. An investment of Rs20,000 or less (depending on deals), could potentially eliminate 1/3 of your electric bill. This was my fathers experience.
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Devaraj, i.e (Theo_Kaiser) :)

IMHO the numbers speak for themselves. We have no option but to go Solar, now that PV is $1 per watt and heading lower. I urge you to run the numbers one more time with the new price inputs.


Theo Aiyya,

As per Wiki, Germany produces only 3% of electricity from solar. I do not know where you are getting the numbers from. If you are using installed capacity to calculate the energy mix the end result could be wrong as we have to use capacity factors. The main problem we have in renewables is only installed capacity (in MW) is always provided. Nobody gives data about energy generated in one year (in MW days / MW hours).

Annual per capita electricity consumption (kWhrs) and Human Development Index (HDI in brackets) is approximately as follows (source, Alan Pasternak):

India 500 (0.55); Germany 5500 (0.9); France 6200 (0.92); US 12,000 (0.92)

As you are already aware there is a nice correlation between HDI and energy consumption. However, after it crosses about 150 GJ/ year (Germany, France=~150 GJ/year/per person) the HDI does not increase along as US and Canada, the outliers, have the same HDI. So for us to grow into a wealthier country like Western Europe we need to add at least 10X to our existing capacity (I am ignoring energy needed to heat homes and offices during winter in other countries. We will more than compensate it by cooling our homes and offices throughout the year).

As per Wiki, our installed capacity was 185 GW as of Nov 2011.

So the question is, can renewables effectively (cost, land, availability, dependability) produce such huge increase in demand? The answer is no. Physics and reality are stacked against renewables such as solar and wind. Let us see each of these factors in slightly more detail.

Cost:

I saw your calculations on solar based on $1/ Watt. This is pretty low compared to what I thought it was. Can you please provide more information about this? Can you please also check whether this is subsidized? AFAIK countries that forcefully implemented renewables had their electricity costs increased. It is unfortunate that we are following this path with the new mandate that a portion of electricity should be from renewables. We will pay for it somehow through hidden subsidies or wasted money in the end.

As per AREVA (2006 data), the French nuclear company, coal, gas (using CCGN) and nuclear are the cheapest methods to produce electricity. Solar was an order of magnitude more expensive than these methods. For nuclear energy cost, the cost included commissioning, operation, insurance, decommissioning and waste management.

Also you should think about costs and possibility of energy storage in pumped reservoirs. You mentioned Austria as an example but you should also consider its very favorable geography and huge freshwater reserves. Somebody in BR talked about using Western Ghats and seawater for pumped storage in India. I am assuming this Rakshak is not from a farming community. Otherwise he would have known the effects of saltwater on farming. Hoover dam in the US has an installed capacity of ~2000 MW. You need a dam of that scale and head including pumping capability to produce that much power. The hallway to the generating room in Hoover shakes due to the energy of the flowing turbulent water in the huge penstocks. The pumped storage system that I saw in Navamalai, Thamil Nadu is a fraction of Hoover. Where will we get so much fresh water in TN? We are farmers and we depend on water from Parambikulam Aliyar and the situation has been dire on many occasions.

Land:

In one of your posts you were talking about the huge amount of land needed for coal based power plants. The land requirements for renewables are the worst as they have the lowest power densities among electricity generators. The land for a coal based power plant depends on many factors such as need for coal and fly ash storage and need for cooling towers. So it can vary from plant to plant.

Based on data that I read from different sources the power density (low to high in W/m^2) stacks up as follows:
Natural gas 200-2000; Coal 100-1000; Solar photovoltaics 4-9; Solar CSP 4-10; Wind 0.5 -1.5.

As you can see Solar and Wind have no chance against fossil fuels when it comes to the ‘sprawl’ needed to produce power. This is the reason why solar power plants the world over are humongous to produce a fraction of what nuclear or coal stations produce. The efficiency of solar cells has to increase an order of magnitude (impossible) to come close to coal or natural gas.

For a 1000 MW PV plant with 10 W/m^2 you need:
1000*1e3*1e3/10=100e6 m^2
=100*(1000m)*(1000m)
=100 sq.km
=10*10 km :cry: for a 1000 MW PV plant. If you include the capacity factors and conversion losses for pumped storage you need >5x this size to produce this output. I cannot fantasize the area needed to produce our future energy needs in TWh. :D . On top of it you have pumped storage (2x-bottom and top).

No wonder hydroelectric dams are also huge because of their low power density.

If you ever visit our village near Koyambuthur (Coimbatore) you can see for yourself acres and acres of land wasted by windmills. These were hot investment locations for celebrities because of the subsidies and favorable depreciation allowance (AFAIK 100% in the first year).

Availability & Dependability:

SEGS in Mojave desert CA has a capacity factor of 21% (http://www.solaripedia.com/13/32/solar_ ... ornia,_usa).html)
I really doubt Thamil Nadu can have this capacity factor but let us assume it does and let us choose 20% a round number.
So you need a dam to provide electricity 80% of a day ~19 hours. (Moreover for your cost calculation you have to calculate (for 1MWh solar you need 5MWh pumped storage) for a 1000/(0.2*0.85) ~5800 MW (0.85 is my assumption of total efficiency for a 90% conversion efficiency hydroelectric dam))

Wind also has very low capacity factor. All fossil fuels have very high capacity factors. Moreover, natural gas and hydroelectric can provide peak power in minutes.

Without energy storage renewables cannot provide base load. How can the grid manage when the supply is erratic and demand is also unpredictable?

I share your opinion regarding solar water heaters. The only reason this works is because we can easily store the energy in insulated tanks as the temperature difference is not so high and the quantity of hot water needed is small for a family in mostly tropical India.

There are crazy ideas coming up regarding storage of energy which is always expensive. I was in Koyambuthur in 2009 June and 2011 November. Due to favorable monsoons during both times there was no sun for almost a month. What will be the efficiency of PV if this happens? Probably you need more pumped storage. Whenever I visit my village most of the windmills do not work as there is no sufficient wind. What will be the capital efficiency if India sinks its money in renewables?

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You are spot on about rising cost of coal. Actually cost of almost all fuels have risen. Nuclear fuel remained somewhat stable (? Forgotten source). Some Indian companies have hedged against inflation by buying coal assets abroad (GVK recently bought Hancock’s coal assets in Australia).

Renewables are good for small countries with small energy needs. For us it is not possible. Most western countries became rich on the back of fossils because it was cheap and the only option available. We have to use the same proven road. Renewables are not proven and if we take this road it may be a painful experience.

I am pro green. I rode my bike to work once when it was -15 deg C and many times over snow. Unfortunately I do not see any other way for us other than using fossil fuels.

IMHO India has to seriously think about natural gas and ways of getting them. A natural gas power plant occupies less space compared to others; a lot cleaner compared to coal which emits harmful and toxic metals such as Hg; does not produce waste like fly ash; CCGN provides the most efficiency; a small NG power plant can be set up in weeks compared to years for other large scale power plants; can be located very close to cities to reduce T&D losses; very dependable and reliable.

IMHO for the later future we have to go nuclear. IMHO the main reason Germany easily gave up nuclear electricity in spite of favorable geography (far away from fault lines and Tsunami) is because of natural gas availability from Russia and Europe’s own unconventional sources. Only time will tell how Russia is dependable with its gas supplies. We should not follow what Europe is ‘talking’ about. Nuclear free Austria and Switzerland buy nuclear electricity.
Last edited by devaraj_d on 10 Jan 2012 00:48, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby joshvajohn » 09 Jan 2012 03:25

India May Join U.S.-China Trade Spat to Prevent Solar ‘Disaster’
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-1 ... ster-.html

Why China is allowed to dump Cheap and less Quality Solar cells while local and international companies are asked to set up their companies? this is a direct threat to the local companies in India and now someone must have been paid here in their accounts.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby devaraj_d » 09 Jan 2012 03:27

Theo_Fidel wrote:-------------------------------------------------------------

In India we are so short of power most people would be comfortable with just 8AM to 6PM electricity. Maybe if GOI wants to be nice add in some storage and make it a 10PM electricity band. This argument over base power and intermittent power is less meaningful in India.


Theo,

I am reading posts one by one and I just replied to one of your earlier posts.

When I visited a semiconductor fab in W. Europe, the CFO said that the main reason they were there was because of reliable source of power. It is really hard to manage an industry when the supply is erratic. Many industries need power 24x7.

Every time I visit India, I am seeing a lot of difference. People are getting richer and most urban middle class is buying a washing machine (shortage of dhobi), induction cooker and ACs. A 1.5 ton 5 Star rated AC (non inverter class) consumes about 1.6kW. A 3 Star 1.5 ton AC needs 1.8 kW. Most homes that I have seen use AC only at night and they are mostly 3 star. So the baseload never comes down. IMO the base load increases in the night as no lighting / TV (day / evening use) comes even close to an AC.

-----------------

AC just reminded me about the level of energy saving that is present in India.

Recently we wanted to buy an AC. The store owner recommends only 3 Star as it is only in stock and also it is Rs 3000 cheaper than a 5 Star. They calculate the opportunity cost of this Rs 3000 and recommend a 3 Star for a home. If you ask for an energy efficient Inverter type AC they think you are stupid. Because of this mentality energy needs are skyrocketing. I saw some upper middle class homes with multiple ACs, one for each bedroom.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby devaraj_d » 09 Jan 2012 03:34

Dhiman wrote:It turns out that even solar can give 24x7 power without adding any storage. For example if Brazilian electric grid is linked to Indian electric grid, then Brazil will supply India will solar electricity during night and India will supply Brazil with solar electricity during day.

Given that laying cables under the ocean is quite common, one could create a whole damn grid under the ocean. :idea:

Even Sharks could have light then. Damn, I wish I could patent this :rotfl:




You forgot the microwave emitting satellites in space. They will beam energy from space and we have to collect them. :D

Theo_Fidel

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Theo_Fidel » 09 Jan 2012 12:09

Devaraj,

I agree with almost everything you say. The math for renewables is daunting and weak looking. The difference is that I did the math for all other potential sources of power and the numbers were even more alarming. You can see those numbers above as well. I'd very much like to see what your numbers look like WRT where the coal comes from and what it costs. I suspect the feasibility might look very shaky then.

I do agree that Coal is pretty much our only option. We are going to put in somewhere between 50,000 MW to 200,000 MW of coal by 2035. The only question is where we are on that scale. At the high end we will be paying ~ $50 Billion to $100 Billion to import the stuff every year in today's prices. Probably 3-4 times that in tomorrows prices. If that much coal is available even, which is very unlikely long term. Even more unlikely is our ever getting to 150Gj/person. That much coal simply does not exist on the planet.

Personally I hate the intermittent quality of Solar. I agree that a cloud passing will shut it down. But right now our option is no coal available hence no power. PLF 0% future.

I think no one who has run the math for India can even imagine any other source can scale in time. As an engineer I'm always told that good enough on time is better than perfect and late or unavailable. BTW the PLF for the Sivaganga PV plant (which is not ideally situated) is trending at about 19%-22% even through the monsoon. TN is much better for Solar than is imagined, better than most of Rajasthan even.

WRT Germany, that 17% number is Solar+Wind. Not sure of the break up. Solar is not going to happen overnight. 3% in 3-5 years is quite credible. Imagine doing that 1%-2% annually for 30 years. That is how this will happen, a gradual shift in reliance. The only possible other contender is Nuclear. And the math says that it is not scalable.

On pricing take a look at the First solar report for 2011. Production cost of $0.73 per watt 2011 Q3. Or Trina (I know China!) has got to $0.93 per watt. Both are getting cheaper.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

to be continued....

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Dhiman » 09 Jan 2012 13:21

devaraj_d wrote:You forgot the microwave emitting satellites in space. They will beam energy from space and we have to collect them. :D


Yes definitely and perhaps satellite with mirrors to reflect sunlight onto a Solar plant during night :D I guess 24x7 solar electricity without storage could be a whole new discussion thread.

In all seriousness though, laying cables for communication across the ocean is common and mature technology. The only issue is that no one has ever laid a power cable across an ocean (probably because there was no need to do so) between continents, but I am starting to think that there may be some very good reasons for doing so with respect to Solar power. Power loss is an issue though over long distances - 3% loss every 1000km.

Political issues aside, a consortium could lease cheap land in say Sahara, Brazil, India, etc and connect them through a under-ocean power grid. Geographically spreading out your solar resources across different timezones + redundancy makes clouds/weather interfering with electricity generation a manageable issue and pretty much gives 24x7 power supply.

But off-shore wind power is also promising and 24x7 in many cases. The issue here is structural stability of putting up a power wind mill in 100m+ deep water with waves. Some North European countries are already into this, big time with electricity costs close to thermal power plants.

Theoretically ocean waves could also be harnessed for 24x7 electric power, but no one has done this.

I guess there are options, someone needs to take a bold step for example, Desertec looks promising with but still missing 24x7 availability + protection against large scale weather events.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby chaanakya » 09 Jan 2012 15:48

Dhiman garu, if it is any consolation o you , this idea is already in works with proposals for linking national grids into Regional grids involving contiguous countries and then linking these regional grids into larger grids. Except in few cases laying cable may no be required unless we talk of floating SPV plants or Off shore wind power or OTEC/OWE/OTE. However as you said seabed laying cable is mastered technology but not yet for Electricity. Such a concept requires political and international support and transfer of power from one grid to another grid seamlessly. This venture would require vision and money.

I am told that US has now wind power interconnected in such a way that it provides 90% uptime for grid supply from WInd energy. There was an article presented to this effect >let me see if I can dig up the references.

In fact Europe is now almost totally interconnected.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Airavat » 11 Jan 2012 07:54

Rajasthan plans four 1GW solar parks

The four parks – to be set up in Jodhpur (below photo), Jaisalmer, Bikaner and Barmer – will mirror Gujarat’s 500MW Charanka project, which offers developers easy grid connections and other benefits.

Image

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby member_21708 » 11 Jan 2012 12:50

Tap solar power from space: A.P.J. Abdul Kalam
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/channels ... -kalam-406


Energy from the sun even when it doesn’t shine
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/218 ... shine.html

Theo_Fidel

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Theo_Fidel » 11 Jan 2012 21:27

This week...

Moser Baer Commissioned 5 MW PV in Rajasthan.
Mahindra Commissioned 5 MW PV in Rajasthan
Sun Edison Commissioned 5 MW PV in Rajasthan
Maharashtra Seamless commissioned 5 MW PV in Rajasthan.

150 MW more coming this month.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby uddu » 11 Jan 2012 22:12

Airavat wrote:Rajasthan plans four 1GW solar parks

The four parks – to be set up in Jodhpur (below photo), Jaisalmer, Bikaner and Barmer – will mirror Gujarat’s 500MW Charanka project, which offers developers easy grid connections and other benefits.


Whatever Modi builds is his vision and with his own efforts. In Rajasthan it's the cental govt support. I do believe that this is denied to Modi. Did find some data that showed higher central govt allotment for Rajasthan and around 1/4 of that to Gujarat.
Anyway let there be hell a lot of competition. It's the nation that wins. :twisted:

Theo_Fidel

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Theo_Fidel » 11 Jan 2012 22:42

I believe this Rajasthan effort is independent of the JNNSM effort.

Most people don't know this but Gujarat is actually #1 in 'Total' Solar potential. Rajasthan is #2. A few limited areas in Rajasthan however have the most sunny days in a year, 330+ in a few areas. Annual average sun light of 2500 hours. This is what makes those particular areas attractive.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby uddu » 12 Jan 2012 20:03

Here is the latest report on the progress made by Gujarat in solar power generation
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_gu ... on_1636627

In a major boost to Gujarat’s ambition to emerge as the solar power hub of the country, more than 500 MW of solar power generation capacity is expected to become operational in the state in the next two weeks or so, a senior government official said.
“The state has taken the lead in tapping solar energy to generate power. Almost 300 MW of solar power generation capacity has been commissioned or is ready for commissioning,” DJ Pandian, principal secretary, energy & petrochemicals department, told DNA. The solar power generation capacity already commissioned or ready for commissioning in the state is already significantly higher than the total solar power generation capacity installed in the whole country. “This is no mean achievement,” Pandian said.

Pandian said that work on a further 200 — 250 MW of solar power generation capacity was in advanced stages and was expected to be commissioned by January 28, 2012, the last day of the control period.
A few units in the Charanka Solar Park, where over 500 MW of power generation capacity has been planned, have also started operations, while some more are in the pipeline, he said.{This is going to be the largest of its type in the world}

For projects commissioned by December 31, 2011, the tariff was fixed at Rs15 per unit for first 12 years and Rs5 per unit from the 13th to 25th year. However, the control period was extended from December 31, 2011, to January 28, 2012, by the Gujarat Electricity Regulatory Commission (GERC).
{Should this be brought down to around Rs.10/9 - 3/2.5 from now onwards?}

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby uddu » 12 Jan 2012 20:26

Theo_Fidel wrote:I believe this Rajasthan effort is independent of the JNNSM effort.

Most people don't know this but Gujarat is actually #1 in 'Total' Solar potential. Rajasthan is #2. A few limited areas in Rajasthan however have the most sunny days in a year, 330+ in a few areas. Annual average sun light of 2500 hours. This is what makes those particular areas attractive.

The map shows, Rajasthan being larger has got area preferable for solar similar to that of Gujarat. Then there are areas along the Karnataka-Andra border. May be In Tumkur district, Bellary and in Ananthpur. And for TN it's along Coimbatore, Tiruppur, Erode and Karur dist's.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Solar_Resource_Map_of_India.png

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby vishvak » 12 Jan 2012 20:34

joshvajohn wrote:India May Join U.S.-China Trade Spat to Prevent Solar ‘Disaster’
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-1 ... ster-.html

Why China is allowed to dump Cheap and less Quality Solar cells while local and international companies are asked to set up their companies? this is a direct threat to the local companies in India and now someone must have been paid here in their accounts.

Just want to have an idea about logistics and essential components needed for solar power, as also which country provides which part the most.

Sooner or later, cartels are going to be formed in the global village the way there are cartels in energy sector such as oil cartel and tech cartel. If I am not mistaken, the same nations that are part of tech cartel are now driving solar energy tech. It is essential to get out of cartels' reach as much as possible for energy independence, and consequences of global dependence on energy. So what is the guarantee that the same nations won't form a cartel for Solar energy? There is only a guarantee that there will be a cartel going by the example of tech cartel.

Just my 2 paise.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby joshvajohn » 17 Jan 2012 00:47

US-China Solar Subsidies Spat Sparks Interest from New Players
http://ictsd.org/i/news/bridgesweekly/123060/

BP Solar and India: Unable to Compete in Solar

Can India and Western nations adopt an energy policy that copes with China and promotes domestic industry?
http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/ ... -in-Solar/

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby joshvajohn » 18 Jan 2012 04:06

India Clean Energy Surge Enters Next Phase
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-1 ... phase.html

Theo_Fidel

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Theo_Fidel » 19 Jan 2012 02:37

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-1 ... ility.html

A unit of Talma Chemical Industries Pvt., owned by the family of Indian investment banker Vallabh Bhanshali, has completed a 25-megawatt solar power plant.

It was built with photovoltaic panels from Hanwha SolarOne Co. (HSOL) and China Sunergy Co. (CSUND), and funds from State Bank of India, Visual Percept Solar Projects Pvt. said in a statement e-mailed today. The plant, in the Surendranagar district of Gujarat, has signed a 25-year agreement to sell power to the state’s utility.

The project cost, undisclosed by the unit, was expected to be 3.3 billion rupees ($65 million), ICRA Ltd., owned by Moody’s Investors Service, said when it assigned a BB+ rating to 2.31 billion rupees of the solar company’s debt in August.

Theo_Fidel

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Theo_Fidel » 20 Jan 2012 09:11

Several comments here claimed Germany was destroying itself by moving to renewable power. Here is a report that says otherwise. They have so much power coming on now that the grid is in excess. And more is coming on every month. Solar is able to install 3,000 MW in one 3 month period from essentially a standing start. They have no choice but to back of coal. They should have put up some pumped storage first. Something we need to start on right away.

One day we too can be power surplus.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... W.DTL&ao=2

Germany is installing so many solar panels that profits at coal-fired power stations run by EON AG and RWE AG may slide more than 40 percent by the middle of 2012.

The country, Europe's biggest electricity market, installed a record 3,000 megawatts of new panels in December, the Bonn- based Bundesnetzagentur, the network regulator, said this month. The prospect of a glut of power may drive the margin from burning coal to generate electricity, the so-called clean-dark spread, as low as 5 euros ($6.46) a megawatt hour by July, according to UBS AG. It was at 8.68 euros at 8:49 p.m. in Berlin today, data compiled by Bloomberg show.

"There is not much overcapacity yet, but it will get worse as there is a lot of new supply coming," Patrick Hummel, an analyst at UBS in Zurich who has covered German energy for more than 10 years, said by e-mail on Jan. 16. Germany may be oversupplied for at least five years, according to the bank.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby MohanSI » 22 Jan 2012 05:57

These are other less rosy reports about the solar power in Germany.

Solar Subsidy 'Insanity' Will Cost Consumers
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,809529,00.html

Re-Evaluating Germany's Blind Faith in the Sun
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,809439,00.html

The solar farm owners are getting ~$250 per megawatt hour vs. typical $60-70 MWH for coal generation. That works out to 25 cents/KWH wholesale and probably around 30-35 cents /KWH retail to consumer. Thats roughly 18 rupees for KWH. Does that sound like a good price to pay?

Theo_Fidel

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Theo_Fidel » 22 Jan 2012 06:11

MohanSI wrote: Does that sound like a good price to pay?


As against no power at all. or a Fukushima type clean up in a super crush dense country like India or Germany.

I do agree that Rs 8 per unit is expensive power right now. Agree that coal is cheap at Rs 4-5 per KW. The question is one of supply and availability. Thermal coal is now going at $120 per ton internationally. Expected to be $150 per ton by 2015 and about $200 per ton by 2020. So is this Rs4 per kw coal power going to be available to India or Germany at all by 2020.

Need to keep the long term perspective. Keep in mind that is a 20 year contract. In 2031 the power will still cost $150 per MW. No inflation adjustment included or needed. What do you think the price of coal power will be in 2031. Definitely higher. But no ones knows. If China peak coal hits in 2016 as projected, watch out.

Also India gets a heck of a lot more sun than Germany. Some studies put Rajasthan at 2,800 hours of sun vs Germany at 1,600 hours of sun. It is going to be our cheapest source of power fairly soon and we are not ready for the change over. Mostly because everyone has their heads stuck in the sand over base load power.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby uddu » 22 Jan 2012 08:53

That's because of fixed cost. In our case we have the bidding way to get the one which is the cheapest. This saves a lot of money and also improves efficiency and transparency. Gujarat can now choose this model for the next round of auctioning. That will save a lot of people's money and also provide the need to have clean energy.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby uddu » 22 Jan 2012 08:58

Suzlon plans 3,000 MW wind projects in Andhra Pradesh
http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... lon-energy
NEW DELHI: Suzlon Energy has said it plans to develop 3,000 MW wind power projects in Andhra Pradesh, creating investment opportunities of around Rs 18,000 crore.
Suzlon has signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) with the state government for developing wind capacity of 3,000 MW between 2012 and 2016.
The agreement covers the development of new capacity in wind farms across the state, with development planned in the districts of Tallimadugula, Alankarayanipeta, Gandikota, Vajrakarur, Tirumalayapalli and other parts of Andhra Pradesh.
The wind power potential of Andhra Pradesh is around 9,000 MW, of which only about 200 MW has been harnessed so far.
{I also request the Admins to rename the thread to Wind and Solar energy in India}

Theo_Fidel

Re: Solar energy in India

Postby Theo_Fidel » 22 Jan 2012 13:00

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/sun-thorium- ... 0-119.html

“If we have to meet 5,000 kWh per capita consumption of electricity at an estimated usage of 8 trillion units per year, coal will last only 11 years, where as Uranium and its derivatives will not last beyond 40 years. Sustainability will come with the use of solar energy and Thorium, the latter will last for 170 years. They are the only forms of energy that will meet our needs,” he said.


Commenting on the Solar Mission, he said: “We are now looking at the scale of the mission and also at bringing the costs down. We are looking at capacity-building. Considering the technological content, we have to plan in a manner that is cost-effective,” he said.

He added that the initial challenge for the mission was understanding whether India’s large land surfaces could withstand the weathering. “I am afraid we have not fully understood this factor as yet. Making sure surfaces retain their properties is a challenge,” he said.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby joshvajohn » 22 Jan 2012 16:03

India Misses Solar Target With 20-Fold Jump in Capacity in Year
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-2 ... -year.html

Funding solar projects needs government push,experts
Punjab Newsline Network
Saturday, 21 January 2012
http://www.punjabnewsline.com/~punjabne ... erts/35921

Indian government okays import of low-priced Chinese solar cells
http://www.pv-tech.org/news/indian_gove ... olar_cells

Why not from US or other countrie s too? Nowadays Chinese knew how to bribe Indians?

Solar-powered houses soon
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/channels ... s-soon-038

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby vishvak » 22 Jan 2012 18:52

joshvajohn wrote:Why not from US or other countrie s too? Nowadays Chinese knew how to bribe Indians?

Is there a guarantee that suppliers from USA will sell energy related equipment without forming cartels or other binding constraints? Is solar energy property of one nation?

How are suddenly Indians have become bribe takers and Chinese bribe givers?

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Re: Solar energy in India

Postby joshvajohn » 23 Jan 2012 00:32

US-China Solar Subsidies Spat Sparks Interest from New Players
http://ictsd.org/i/news/bridgesweekly/123060/

Solar's War of Words
http://www.renewablesbiz.com/article/12 ... -war-words

Which Side Are You On? The Solar Trade Wars
http://sustainablebusinessforum.com/mar ... trade-wars

I originally thought Indian govt is to encourage Manufactorers in India to produce these solar cells, then encourage others also to invest in manufacturing units and thus did not allow any govt to import, then we see the Chinese are allowed to do so, while other countries are not allowed to do so! the Question is why?


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