Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 2012

[RajeshA]

Pakistan needs to breed more historians: Ayesha Jalal

Pakistan needs new fiction writers! Old fictitious narrative about Pakistan is unraveling!

[Dipanker]

What forecasting model are you using which lets you forecast as far as 200 years in future?

Diapanker ji

I don't know what he uses - but if history is any guide - the decline and fall of the Roman Empire took more than 500 years and it was relatively less powerful than current day US. Even British Empire in its death throws now is still more powerful (and wealthy) than a lot of nations in the world.

Regards

OT here, but history is also replete with examples of countless number of empires which have lasted for a much shorter period of time.

[Prem]

Cheena made Dwai
Pakistan: Bad heart drugs suspected in 25 deaths

ISLAMABAD—A government health official says bad drugs are suspected of killing at least 25 heart patients over the last month in the Pakistani city of Lahore.Javed Akram said Monday that 100 other heart patients who had taken the same medicine have been admitted to hospitals in the city and 50 of them are in critical condition.Akram is leading a probe into the deaths set up by the government of Punjab province, where Lahore is the capital. He said the suspected drugs were given free to patients by the state-run Punjab Institute of Cardiology.Akram said patients developed red spots on their skin within days of taking the medicine that is suspected of killing them.

[Altair]

OT here, but history is also replete with examples of countless number of empires which have lasted for a much shorter period of time.

How long did it take for Imperial Japanese Empire to become a nation which ties shoe laces to US. If the freak show continues in SOH even Iran can become a superpower in the next decade. All these models are just for bear and popcorn. Pakistan is the biggest example of these models failures.

[Dipanker]

This is the best possible news for India, this "divorce" between proxytute and her best customer.

Now why didn't I think of it! It so aptly describes the Pakis. Must become essential part of BRF lexicon!

[svinayak]

Even British Empire in its death throws now is still more powerful (and wealthy) than a lot of nations in the world.

Regards

Who said British empire is in death now. By spreading English and their monetary/trading system British Empire have perpetuated themselves into infinity.

[SBajwa]

can somebody make a wiki page on the word "proxytute" so that it becomes part of lexicon?

[archan]

Pakistan needs to breed more historians: Ayesha Jalal

Pakistan needs new fiction writers! Old fictitious narrative about Pakistan is unraveling!

Would need some really innovative writing and a strong imagination to keep fooling the people for another 60 odd years. Essential survival skills for paki "historians" I guess.

[Prem]

Mice and Crow

Code: Select all

ISLAMABAWD: Lt General Ahmed Shuja Pacha, the chief of the Inter Services Intelligence (ISI), held a secret meeting with former President General (retired) Pervez Musharraf in Dubai advising him not to visit Pakistan, sources told DawnNews on Monday. “General Pacha, who has remained very close to the former president, held a meeting with him (Musharraf) in Dubai and advised him not to return to the country as the situation is not conducive for his return,” said an insider while requesting anonymity from this correspondent.The Senate on Monday also passed a resolution demanding the arrest of the former military ruler on his return. Interior Minister Rehman Malik also announced that Musharraf would be arrested the day he landed in Pakistan.The sources claim that Pacha strictly advised Musharraf to not to return.It is yet not clear whether the meeting was held on the directions of the ruling Pakistan People’s Party government or if it was a private meeting. However the sources insist that it was a private meeting between the two.The sources also claim that Pacha enjoys a long history of relations with the former dictator.

[Baikul]

Mice and Crow
...............

From the link, Dawn states that:

The sources also claim that Pasha enjoys a long history of relations with the former dictator.

I wonder who was the pitcher? Dawn seems to be sure about people enjoying, though...

[Prem]

Baluchi Burn Bakistani Bun

QUETTA: Gas supply to several areas in Sindh was disrupted after a main pipeline was blown up in Mullguzar area on Sunday evening.An official of the Sui Southern Gas Company (SSGC) said the repair work would begin after security clearance.The banned Baloch Republican Army claimed responsibility for the attack.
The pipeline caught fire after the explosion that was put out by stopping the supply from the main Sui plant.Police said a large portion of the 18-inch diameter pipeline supplying gas to Sindh had been destroyed.
BRA spokesman Sarbaz Baloch said this was the fourth time the group had blown up the pipeline in the area.

[Prem]

Gathering of Gund.Who is Who of Pu
Jihadis on the march again

Apart from various rightwing or pro-rightwing groups belonging to Pakistan Defence Council, comprising 44 politico-religious parties, the rally was also participated by the leadership of two Rawalpindi-based factions of Pakistan Muslim League and two former army generals. Almost all the speakers threatened to take over Islamabad by force if the Nato supplies were restored and India was granted the MFN (most favoured nation) status.The rally was also attended by Jamaat-i-Islami chief Syed Munawar Hassan, Sardar Atiq Ahmed Khan, the president of Muslim Conference and former president of AJK, and ex-COAS Gen (retired) Aslam Beg.
About 10,000 to 15,000 people, including those from many districts of Punjab and Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, attended the rally. Those who came from distant places expressed the confidence that the rally would pave the way towards ideological and political sovereignty of the country which they believed was lacking.
“This will show the Americans that we are united like Taliban of Afghanistan for our independence,” said Umar Gul, of Tehrik Irshad-i-Tauheed wa Sunnah, who came from Swabi. He said such show of strength would stop drone attacks.Meanwhile, one worker of Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamaat (former Sipah-i-Sahaba), who came from Narang Mandi of Mandi Bahauddin, said they wanted the restriction on their party lifted.
“This is unfair and all done at the behest of Americans as the US is afraid of Islamic revolution in Pakistan,” he said.Addressing the gathering, Sheikh Rashid Ahmed and Ijazul Haq criticised the religious leadership for not being united and having strong discord in their ranks.“There are active conspiracies against the country but they are all successful only because of disagreement among the Islamists. It will all end the day Maulana Samiul Haq votes for Maulana Fazlur Rehman and vice versa,” said Sheikh Rashid, the president of Awami Muslim League.Spearheaded by Hafiz Saeed, leader of Jamaatud Dawa (JuD), the umbrella organisation of the banned Lashkar-i-Taiba, the gathering also showcased the organisational strength of JuD as its workers managed all the arrangements, including security of the stage and the venue as a whole.
However, none of the parties or the participants displayed weapons while armed police personnel were seen around Liaquat Bagh and at the stage.It may be noted that the Defence of Pakistan Council was created in the wake of the Nato attack on Salala checkpost in Mohmand Agency under the patronage of chief of his own faction of Jamiat Ulema-i-Islam, Maulana Samiul Haq.Addressing the gathering, Maulana Samiul Haq took oath from the participants that the Islamists would surround the parliament if the government reopened the Nato supply routes.

[Rahul M]

Would need some really innovative writing and a strong imagination to keep fooling the people for another 60 odd years. Essential survival skills for paki "historians" I guess.

we have a rather large excess we do not need. we can donate them as a CBM for pakis to create a breeding pool.

[shiv]

This fits in with my observation that Indian education is science oriented. The best part about being "science oriented" is that it is secular and uncontroversial for most part and can be used to produce worker ants to build the nation.

Pakistan OTOH actively had a huge "Social Studies" segment in its schools that was called "Pakistan studies" and taught distorted history, Islamic supremacy, military theory and other humanities subjects. RAPE children were then sent off to the "best" phoren universities in paid seats to study humanities. Just check the departments in which RAPEs work - you will rarely find then doing Physics or Mech Engg.

Shiv garu,

How do you explain this anamoly from Ayesha Jalal

Pakistan needs to breed more historians: Ayesha Jalal

One of Pakistan's most acclaimed historians, Ayesha Jalal bemoans the fact that history as an academic discipline has failed to grow in her country, a deficiency that needs to be addressed to spawn a new breed of scholars in the subject.

A professor of History at the Tufts University with as many as seven books to her credit, the Pakistani-American who is an authority on South Asia has chosen to return to Pakistan as a visiting scholar to help address the gap in her own way.

In India to attend the Jaipur Literature Festival, Jalal told PTI during an interaction why she felt that the academic growth of history in India had contributed to the development of a worthy scholarship in this country.

This Ayesha is telling the truth. What Poaqistan teaches is not history. They teach bullshit in the name of history.

India teaches history, but the history taught in India is not history as seen by Indians, but as viewed by others who told us that Indians do not maintain historical records. But that is a topic for the "Inferiority is my birthright" thread.

[shiv]

I don't know what he uses - but if history is any guide - the decline and fall of the Roman Empire took more than 500 years and it was relatively less powerful than current day US. Even British Empire in its death throes now is still more powerful (and wealthy) than a lot of nations in the world.

Regards

Declines are invariably relative. Iraq today is more powerful militarily and human-capital wise than Babylon. It's not the decline so much as the rise of others. Once again history teaches that rise of others and decline of earlier powerful empires is inevitable.

But more to the point - one can look at any "powerful regime" - say Saddam, or Idi Amin or even the Pakistan army. These regimes build up enough loyalists to make it difficult for anyone to speak up against the regime. No citizen of those nations could speak of a time after that regime because loyalists of the regime in power would make the other shut up, sometimes on pain of death.

The USA today has such loyalists who defend it against criticism. The USA has built up a large number of loyalists who will protest and fight any attempt to speak of a world where the US is in decline or has declined. Apart from Hollywood and a few fiction writers who envisage a future of a devastated USA (by aliens) as a fun story no one has had the gumption to talk about a failing USA where ethnic rivalries fighting a core elite and a population armed to the teeth with weapons causes a convulsion in world history. Less than a couple of centuries ago the US had a civil war, and now people talk as if the laws are so good that al will be vel forever. But history teaches us that no matter how many good people you have, how good your laws are the empire will eventually decline if only because "bad" overwhelms the "good".

To stop the "bad" from overwhelming the "good" or at least to delay it, it is necessary for the "good" to be actually good and not rhetorical self praise of bullshit as good. Unfortunately the US has moved from largely good to the pursuit of just staying on top using power and rhetorical self praise. Saddam used to do that. US hypocrisy in Iraq, its hypocrisy in dealing with Pakistan and India, hypocrisy in dealing with the despots of Saudi Arabia and with other nations will not be forgotten in those countries, but right now those "bad" acts of the US are praised by US loyalists just as Saddam's loyalists would praise his despotism. Power has a dynamic of its own, but it falls because of mistakes made by mere men like Bush who lead great nations into decline. Let's see if the US shoots itself in the foot with Iran. It is important for India not to expend itself while the US is busy doing that.

Sorry OT

[pralay]

to make your day,
5 more sent to meet their 72

A drone attack in a volatile tribal region of north-west Pakistan has killed at least five suspected militants, officials say.

The attack took place at Degan village in the North Waziristan tribal area, close to the Afghan border.

Analysts say that the US briefly halted drone strikes in the region in November after a Nato attack accidentally killed 24 Pakistani soldiers.

Attacks by the unmanned aircraft appear to have resumed in early January.

The militants, who are believed to be from Turkmenistan, were killed when missiles hit their vehicle, local administration officials told the BBC.

Witnesses say the vehicle was going from Degan to Datta Khel in North Waziristan and said that it was engulfed by fire after the missile strike. A nearby house was also damaged.

Drone attacks have focused on North and South Waziristan, where US officials believe many al-Qaeda and Taliban fighters find shelter.

The US says the region is home to several militant groups involved in attacks on Nato forces in Afghanistan.

Drone attacks frequently target Pakistan's restive tribal areas, where many insurgents have taken refuge.

The frequency of the attacks has increased since President Barack Obama took office in 2008. More than 100 raids were reported in the area in 2010, and more than 60 took place last year.

The US does not routinely confirm drone operations, but analysts say only American forces have the capacity to deploy such aircraft in the region.

[Satya_anveshi]

Paki Senate unanimously adopted a resolution to press treason charges against Mushy

[shiv]

Paki Senate unanimously adopted a resolution to press treason charges against Mushy

Among the chief reasons cited in the resolution for the stringent action was the charge that the former president had abrogated the Constitution twice and damaged national security by entering into accords with the US. The resolution also charged that Musharraf had handed over Pakistan’s airbases to the US and detained honorable top judges. The resolution went on to state that Musharraf had also decreased the share of provinces in the National Finance Commission (NFC) award and caused enormous losses to the national exchequer.

Speaking on the Senate floor, Rabbani said Musharraf had used state power to both suppress Baloch nationalists and assist the killing of veteran Baloch leader Nawab Akbar Bugti and former prime minister Benazir Bhutto.

Interesting. The civilians in Pakistan have so far been impotent, while the army has not only been powerful, it has, until now, always enjoyed the support of the US. There seems to have been a self-feeding loop in relations between the USA and the Pakistani army.

The Paki army always said "We are Pakistan. We represent Pakistani interests. We ensure Pakistan's stability" even as they ruthlessly suppressed any civilians whom they thought might overstep the line. The US for its part echoed the Pakistani army sentiment, saying "The Paki army represents Pakistani interests. The Pakistani army ensures Pakistan's stability". So the Pakistan army and the US collaborated - with the US providing the money and goodies and the Paki army engaging proxies to fight the US battles and its own battles, allowing the US unfettered access into Pakistan.

For the first time in history the Pakistan army and the US have fallen out. Neither the US nor the Paki army can collaborate without losing face/losing credibility. That allows a small space for Paki civilians to do their own thing and oppose the Pakistani army and the US. India can spoil this civil military split in Pakistan in a millisecond by threatening Pakistan and uniting everyone against India. The ISI can attempt to spoil this by conducting a massive terror attack on India, but unless India retaliates, it won't work.

Maybe Bharat Karnad knows something that I don't know.

[gakakkad]

Pakistan needs to breed more historians: Ayesha Jalal

How does one 'breed' historians ? What position should they try breeding them ? Who ll be on top? ayesha or abdul hainji ? When should the brocesss begin ? Full moon ? khuspoo id ? 14th day of cykil ?

[Anujan]

Zardari's media advisor flees Pakistan, says she fears abduction by ISI - TOI

ISLAMABAD: Farahnaz Ispahani, Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari's media adviser and wife of former envoy to US Husain Haqqani, claims that she has fled the country as she feared being kidnapped by the ISI.

Ispahani, who has fled to Washington, said she was afraid that she would be abducted to force her husband to confess and implicate Zardari in the memogate issue, Geo News reported from London.

The new meaning of AoA, its not #1, not Arabia-o-Akbar, but America-o-Akbar.

She is an amreeki citizen. Look at the asterisk and then the legend below:

http://www.state.gov/s/cpr/rls/dpl/spri ... 162624.htm

[habal]

Indeed, but where you and differ is that US is not going to become irrelevant in the next 200 years at least.

What forecasting model are you using which lets you forecast as far as 200 years in future?

It's the Gunga Din forecasting model. 200 years or 1000 years both are possible.

[pgbhat]

She is an amreeki citizen. Look at the asterisk and then the legend below:

http://www.state.gov/s/cpr/rls/dpl/spri ... 162624.htm

Excellent find sir.

[Anujan]

Today Pakis have "rejected" US report on the Salala (where Unkil gave 25 TFTAs their 72)

Here is the Paki dossier to unkil

http://www.ispr.gov.pk/front/press/pakistan.pdf

Makes for entertaining reading, drips with self righteousness.

[Anujan]

How can a foreign citizen be a member of the national assembly and the spokesperson of the President?! Though I do have a soft corner for Farahnaz isnt this a bit too much?

In other news: Civvies in Pakistan subtly threatened to put Mansoor Ijaz on exit control list. When he balked at showing up, they want him to be charged with contempt of court now

[Satya_anveshi]

For the first time in history the Pakistan army and the US have fallen out.

Shiv ji,

First, I must say that past few posts on US-Pak-India dynamic were fabulous as usual. However, I note that you have mentioned the above a couple times now in as many days indicating that you have come to this conclusion. I am sure you must have thought about this long before arriving to such a conclusion. There is a lot of material as we all have been tracking to suggest this but I am still having a bit of hard time getting to that conclusion.

What I see some most visible events highlighting the confrontation are the following:

[*]Kary Langoor bill dis-incentivizing army coup
[*]pukes exposing CIA station chief's names and putting their life in jeopardy
[*]Raymond Davis affair
[*]Bin laden attack
[*]Salaleh shooting game
[*]Nato supplies from Pak stopped

I see memo gate actually enhancing strategic space of Puki army and ice breaker rather than confrontation. I agree with the narrative that US actually pushed civvies under the bus.

So, except bin laden incident, which I see as Obama's political requirement rather than any US-Pak confrontation, pukes didn't lose shit and I am sure Obama will be itching to reward Pukes appropriately for that. It isn't just time yet. Now, which of the above really warrants us to take a position that US and Pak have fallen out?

[kmkraoind]

Anujanulla seems to be possessed by dijn. First excellent finds of female wrestling judge and now on media adviser. It seems all whiskey-sipping elites have some western residency as a backup. What dabbles me is that very few takers for the land of prophet or an Arabian nation, and none for panda land, what a hypocrite nation. Izzlam is not about spirituality, but control tool of political-economic clout and its preservation tactics for most abduls.

[Satya_anveshi]

Though I do have a soft corner for Farahnaz ?

Anujanulla, Todin is Monday/Tue for rest of us. Are you having Friday already after a tough week?

[rajanb]

Anujan ---- Brilliant.

Such a self serving document. And I quote:

On any given night several Pakistani posts carry out speculative fire if and when deemed necessary.

Now this tubelight understands whay they fire so often across the LOC. Militant activity! On their side!

And the fact that they were the Azad Kashmir regiment from the TSPA biratherhood had gone west instead of east, just shows they were at the wrong place, at the right time, to get their just desserts.

[Shaashtanga]

This is TIRP thread so I am not sure if this is the right place, mods please remove if it is not appropriate for this thread.
What can Pakistan learn from Indian education system? (Sochta Pakistan, 20 Jan 2012)

[svenkat]

Anujanullah seems to be some ranking spy in Langley.

Its incredible -the no of pakis in high positions who are foreign citizens/residents.The west has embedded itself in pak but its agents are being driven out.The US/West has invested too much for pak to fail.

But then the best laid out.....

[shiv]

What I see some most visible events highlighting the confrontation are the following:

[*]Kary Langoor bill dis-incentivizing army coup
[*]pukes exposing CIA station chief's names and putting their life in jeopardy
[*]Raymond Davis affair
[*]Bin laden attack
[*]Salaleh shooting game
[*]Nato supplies from Pak stopped

I see memo gate actually enhancing strategic space of Puki army and ice breaker rather than confrontation. I agree with the narrative that US actually pushed civvies under the bus.

So, except bin laden incident, which I see as Obama's political requirement rather than any US-Pak confrontation, pukes didn't lose shit and I am sure Obama will be itching to reward Pukes appropriately for that. It isn't just time yet. Now, which of the above really warrants us to take a position that US and Pak have fallen out?

Good question.

If you go back to recent reports, It was stated that the US known from 2004 onwards that the Paki army was helping the Taliban. The US army has been saying that for years much to our delight on BRF, but US policy had never stopped calling Pakistan a great and helpful ally. Considering that the "war on terror" had made little or no progress from 2004 to 2011 I just wonder why the US insisted on paying the Pakistani army and calling it an ally.

The most plausible explanation to my mind was that the US, under that insufferable moron Dubya made some very bad choices that made a weak US position even weaker in many ways.

Despite its great power in 2001 the US simply had no means of taking on Afghanistan without Pakistani help. This is something that no US apologist on BRF would have admitted or foreseen in 2001, so drunk were people with the idea that the US is omnipotent and invincible. But macho Prez Dubya had to show the world that the US was tough. So he coopted a Musharraf who is probably twice as intelligent as Dubya and Mushy hoodwinked the idiotic American. He got money and arms against India. Got his men out of Afghanistan and pretended that he was helping. In the meantime - imagining that Afghanistan was a done deal the nincompoop Dubya attacked Iraq. But in the process of "helping" the US Musharaf had to sell some people out while he protected his assets. The people he sold out were "Foreign terrorists" and Baluchis. The people he supported were LeT and anti-American Taliban. This led to a backlash against Musharraf eventually leading to his ouster. His ouster was a signal that Pakis were sick of army rule and that a spell of civilian rule would happen - as is normal for Pakistan.

Note that there are two double dealing bhench*ds here - one was Dubya and the other was Musharraf. They kept the charade going as long as they could. Mushy went out in 2008. Dubya left in 2009, but then fate had played its hand. I had posted earlier that the US had frittered away its greatness for an illusion of greatness. The same US that elected a complete brainless moron Dubya who trusted double dealer Mushy and then started a war in Iraq. The same US saw a massive economic crash caused by some of the most successfully greedy people on earth running US banks and living in a bubble.

When Ombaba, a black President came in, the world and the USA was not what Dubya had inherited from Clinton in 2001. The US of 1999 was a US that Nawaz Sharif went begging to for an "honorable exit" after a war started by Musharraf. The US of 2012 is a US that has its reports and demands "rejected" by the Pakistani army. And this after the US has pumped Pakistan with US$ 20 billion despite recession. That is some fall. I am not sure what universe those people are sitting, who tell me that the US remains a gloriously strong superpower. "Rule Brittania" is a song that is still sung. Ironic.

In 2012, Pakistanis are openly in a verbal rebellion against their army and the army is openly in rebellion against the US. Your post shows how the US is still willing to help the Pakistan army, but the US is unable to change the antagonism of the civilian Pakis against the US or against their own army.

The "falling out" of the US and the Pakistan army is that the Pakistan army no longer has control or support of its civilians which it needs to do the US's job. It has to oppose the US because Pakistani civilians now see their army as having GUBOed to the US. The US may continue to pay the Paki army, but the Paki army has to say "Balls" to the US because for the first time Paki civilians are no longer supporting what their army has been doing. I am sure the US will be the first country to look away if there actually is a coup. But the Army does not have the internal support in Pakistan for a coup because the army's skeletons have tumbled out of the cupboard with Abbottabad and the firefight that killed Pakis.

The US now is triply weak
1. It is still reeling from recession, and its European allies are sick
2. It is still stuck in Afghanistan with no solution to the problem that led to 9-11
3. It has lost control of its most vital asset in Pakistan, the Pakistan army because that army has lost the support of the civilians

None of these things need be permanent. Things can change rapidly - but the Paki civilians have an "opening" here to oppose their army and bring its power and wealth down. For that to happen the India threat has to be low. If the Paki civilians succeed - even if they continue to hate India, India will be a winner. India is not afraid of Paki hate. India does not want to make love to Pakistan. But India is wary of the Paki army. The US and its proxytute the Paki army will be the losers.

This is how I read the current situation.

[member_22286]

So Shiv sir u are telling me that MMS was engaging with Pak Politicians to soothe US nerves and injecting some potency in the form of importance to Pak politicians.MMS is Smoking the piece pipe in a way to get the PA neutered that was my understanding please explain if there are more nuances

[Suppiah]

Mullah Shiv, your proxytute is a stroke of genius and deserves an entry in the Oxford Dictionary, at the very least the BRF dictionary

You seem to be welcoming the fact that the civvies are taking on the TSPA. Of course, you are under no illusion as to their anti-India hatred but perhaps their anti-India hatred is somewhat milder than the anti-India hatred of our leftist intellectual cabal. Be that as it may, the reason the civvies are taking on the army or at least making some squeaking noise here and there, is not to establish some lofty principle of secularism, giving up jehadi terror or such stuff - it is simply a power struggle amongst equally violent and dangerous scum, ala our Kar-rat cabal taking on the Maoists, sometimes killing each other.. Just as Kar-rat and Maoists do, the TSPA / civvie group do come together more often than they stay apart. They all run a shared services center that nourishes both groups and provides sustenance. In the case of TSP it is the Madrasah jehad factories, in our case it is the pseudo-intellectual and yellow media cabal.

Which means that India is NOT gonna be a winner even if the civvies 'win'. Victory for them is simply keeping the current dispensation in power and get their 10%. To repeat, it is NOT a battle of principles going on here.

I do agree with you that if GOI makes some anti-Pak move, that would kill off this nascent battle, whatever be its significance..

So it is good if GOI is not carried away by the civvy taqiya and not let down any effort in preparing for the inevitable - a war with TSP that destroys TSP for good, at least destroys its terror capacity forever and breaks it up again.

[shiv]

So Shiv sir u are telling me that MMS was engaging with Pak Politicians to soothe US nerves and injecting some potency in the form of importance to Pak politicians.MMS is Smoking the piece pipe in a way to get the PA neutered that was my understanding please explain if there are more nuances

Please do not put words in my mouth. On BRF anything anyone says about Manmohan Singh causes some people to get an erection and others to lose their erection so I don't talk about MMS's likes and dislikes.

Until about 2-3 months ago I was under the impression that there was a secret understanding between the US and India that allowed the US to pressure Pakistan while India kept its head low. In fact I am now coming around to the conclusion that the "track 2 and track 3 and track pee" diplomacy that India has conducted might possibly have indicated a groundswell of Paki civilian disenchantment with the Pakistan army along with an inability of the civvies to say anything as long as India remained a military threat. There may actually have been a request that if the civvies are given a chance to speak up, they would speak up differently about the Army and America.

Whether this is taqiyya or not only time will tell, but I think the exact relationship between civilians and army and army and USA is as follows.

India is the enemy and the army tells civilians, "we will protect against India, but don't ask us what we are doing."

The Paki army tells USA: "We are your ally. We will do your job, but you give us money and arms and don't ask us why"

But for this to work,
1. India has to be the enemy.
2. People have to support army

What has happened now is that US is seen as a bigger enemy by the people who no longer support the Army's status as US ally. But the army is too powerful - and still assassinates civilian opponents while the US looks away and says "Oh the Paki army is the best hope"

We cannot talk to the Pakistan army. We cannot talk to the Paki army's allies the LeT. But the civilians who are afraid of antagonizing the army can only get support from India, not the USA, because the USA is a Paki army supporter. The USA will give citizenship to individual citizens, but does not give a flying fug about literacy, poverty etc in Pakistan. Neither does the army.

Now why should India give a flying fug about anyone in Pakistan? Who cares if it is army, LeT or civilian? Screw them all. All terrorists
The answer seems to be as follows. A long as India opposes everyone in Pakistan, the Paki army can tell Pakis - look - India is so hostile. You have no other go. You support us and we get US support.

But if Indian hostility goes the Paki army and its US support gets fugged. Paki civvies know fully well that their army grabs resources citing India as the enemy. This has become even more well known in the last decade with the spread of the electronic media and internet. Whatever the pros and ons of this - Pakis can see Satanic Verses banned by India, but Quran being burned in US. They see the Bollywood Khans dancing and see US GI's pissing on Taliban

On BRF we have too many people who admire the USA blindly and are fully convinced of the the inferiority of India to believe that India can be charting an independent policy of its own wrt Pakistan.

That is not to say that this policy will work. But when I see people like Bharat Karnad mooting a "go soft" on Pakistan, I know we have thinking patriots on the job.

[RajeshA]

Pakis can see Satanic Verses banned by India, but Quran being burned in US. They see the Bollywood Khans dancing and see US GI's pissing on Taliban

shiv saar,

very interesting comparison!

[arunsrinivasan]

^^ This jingo has no problem with India going soft on TSPA overtly .... as long as we are going hard covertly & finally lay the ghosts of IK Gujral to rest.

A question though, would going hard covertly cause problems for our overt strategy?

[shiv]

You seem to be welcoming the fact that the civvies are taking on the TSPA. Of course, you are under no illusion as to their anti-India hatred but perhaps their anti-India hatred is somewhat milder than the anti-India hatred of our leftist intellectual cabal. Be that as it may, the reason the civvies are taking on the army or at least making some squeaking noise here and there, is not to establish some lofty principle of secularism, giving up jehadi terror or such stuff - it is simply a power struggle amongst equally violent and dangerous scum,

The highlighted portion is where you are wrong.

All Pakis may be India haters. All Pakis may be terrorists in their minds. But without adequate teeth they can do nothing. If you remove the army's power, Pakistan is nothing.

The Pakistani army is the single most dangerous thing. Don't forget that the Paki army has trained people with thousands of tanks, artillery pieces, missiles and command over aircraft, communication eqpt etc.

Where do they get money and equipment from? Their main supporter is USA. The main reason they are able to get all this is because they tell the US "We will do the US's job. You protect our backs (or help us protect our backs) against india"

One thing is certain
1. Paki civilians support their army 100% against India
2. Paki civilians do not support their army's alliance with USA
3. Paki army cannot support USA without civilian backing
4. India threat is needed for civilian backing. All Pakis are greedy, but only the army gets money. No India threat and Pakis start asking where is all the money going?
5. USA won't keep on paying Paki army for simply opposing US aims.

A civilian army split is the best possible thing for India. India's biggest chance to widen this split is when civilians do not support army in doing US's job. This may well be the best opportunity for India to lie low now. If things change, like army coup - then the action needed may change.

[rajanb]

@Shiv Brilliant piece.

To summarise of proxytutes and erections. Reminds me of a number: "killing you softly with my song".

You have articulated it brilliantly. Whatever chai biskoot sessions decide, The TSProxytuteA's proxytute the JUD, will hold rallies and shoot down anyways. In the name of purity.

[Aditya_V]

Anything which Pakis at their throats and away from concentrating on India is good.

[RajeshA]

^^
Making a wish for a terrorist attack on an open respected forum is unwise.