PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 23 Jan 2012 08:31

the late apple boss

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 23 Jan 2012 09:56

Like I said previously Kartik, the soviets probly did what they did out of necessity (either a lack of technology or need to drive cost down) - not simply because they were negligent or as you glibly put it, because "they were the worst ergonomic designers in the world".

Your pictures actually tend to buffer my argument:

a) The difference (in terms of ergonomics) between western vs. Rus manufacturers has certainly reduced - thank you for the MS-21 pic, it clearly brings this out.
b) In terms of h/w, iirc, the 21, did not have a HUD, which the Draken seems to have. The soviets it seems did not have the kind of streamlined sighting equipment that we see in western counterparts - they did what they could. I think the images you provided clearly show that the h/w used by the soviet a/c was decidedly bulkier underlining my previous suggestion.
c) As far as the Su-7 was concerned, it was built PRIMARILY for soviet missions - as such an AC might have been moot considering the cool weather in Roosiland. Err, that India was saddled with the same is unfortunate, but then again, at least India could afford it.

Bottomline - you want clean design, air conditioning, heating, fragrance, power options and cup holders, pay the extra $$s. If you can't, stick to Soviet stuff. It did the job. They produced cheaper, less technologically sophisticated, but rather effective weapons.

However, the idea that they were negligent towards pilot comfort purely for the sake of it, is unwarranted. It is rather obvious that they built the birds the way they did out of necessity (whatever the strategic/tactical goals may be), and not out of ignorance/negligence of pilot needs. They wouldn't be sticking toilets in their fighter-bombers otherwise!

POint being, no need to diss the teal color and their explanation behind it as though it has no value - the Russkis did it because they felt it helped. Designing a less cluttered pit might have been even more helpful perhaps, but that is not germane to this discussion. For whatever reasons, they did not/could not. I doubt that makes 'em the worst designers in the world - a comment, that has little merit - since obviously they have been able to when they chose to do so. Ditto about the idea that "factors which consciously cause pilot stress/discomfort did not matter as much to them".

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Jan 2012 10:38

not sure if this was posted , picture of 3rd prototype of PAK-FA

http://www.knaapo.ru/rus/gallery/events ... t-50-3.wbp

negi · Post by **negi** » 23 Jan 2012 11:17

The Ru vs West comparison is bound to come up however the key thing to note is Ru's design philosophy like the west was driven by their war doctrine and obviously constrained by resources and technology of that time; like in any other tool it's needless to say function over form is what gets all the priority. For example the position of pilot's seat and canopy in Mig-29 does not give him as much all round visibility when compared to say F-16's canopy but then I don't think it is a mere ergonomics thing; it is a genuine real estate management problem due to the gap between Ru and Unkil's technology at that time. Why even the slot-back radar on the Mig during those days used MSI chips while the ones used by the mission computer on F-16 were all VLSI chips heck the Ts1000 which powered the slot-back alone weighed ~32Kg. Add to it the Ru requirement to be able to make this AC in huge numbers and to be able to take off from semi prepared air strips; so now we are talking about accommodating beefier landing gear into the fuselage and may be we should compare the weight and specs of the K-36D seat with the Martin Baker (afaik former is significantly heavier than the latter). Same was the case with Mig-17 vs F-86 comparison on cockpit and visibility the former was powered by a RR derived Klimov engine (they used centrifugal compressors) so the huge engine diameter gave that distinct short stove pipe like look to the Mig-17 fuselage but it meant pilot had to be seated a lot deeper in the fuselage as compared to the F-86 and that is why one will see those characteristic 3 rear view mirrors on the canopy of all the Ru fighters.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 23 Jan 2012 11:48

I thought the standard Soviet/Russian cockpits had the light blue paint scheme like this --> mig-21 cockpit. The su-7 cockpit photo doesnt seem to adhere to that norm. Was it of an upgraded su-7?

Badar · Post by **Badar** » 23 Jan 2012 12:09

There is a distinction between ergonomics and effectiveness.

If operational research suggested that a spike in the middle of the aircraft seat improved pilot alertness for the duration of the sortie, there is a good chance the Russian designers would have included one on their aircraft. The pilots would not have found it particularly ergonomic (PAF might murmur dissent here

) but the PVO/VVS generals would have found it to be effective.

Same could apply to the color of the cockpit. The color could be a contributing factor to pilot effectiveness during high stress situations, but it doesn't mean that the color itself could be lovable or enjoyable.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 23 Jan 2012 13:48

^^^ That seems quite a convoluted justification.

Badar · Post by **Badar** » 23 Jan 2012 18:25

indranilroy wrote:^^^ That seems quite a convoluted justification.

I am not justifying it - I am personally dubious about the colors supposed efficacy.

My point is that looking at it from the point of view of ergonomics is beside the point. The purported Russian explanation of that color has nothing to do with ergonomics.

Snehashis · Post by **Snehashis** » 23 Jan 2012 18:36

Badar wrote:There is a distinction between ergonomics and effectiveness.

If operational research suggested that a spike in the middle of the aircraft seat improved pilot alertness for the duration of the sortie, there is a good chance the Russian designers would have included one on their aircraft. The pilots would not have found it particularly ergonomic (PAF might murmur dissent here ) but the PVO/VVS generals would have found it to be effective.

Same could apply to the color of the cockpit. The color could be a contributing factor to pilot effectiveness during high stress situations, but it doesn't mean that the color itself could be lovable or enjoyable.

Yahoo says about the teal cockpit colour :

I really don't know but I can speculate. The green/blue color would absorb red light that could overwhelm night vision goggles.
I know that in American fighters the amount of red light allowed from instruments is very low. Used to build one of the displays for the F-18. The color test was very stringent.

Badar · Post by **Badar** » 23 Jan 2012 19:02

I really don't know but I can speculate. The green/blue color would absorb red light that could overwhelm night vision goggles.
I know that in American fighters the amount of red light allowed from instruments is very low. Used to build one of the displays for the F-18. The color test was very stringent.

That could certainly be one explanation. But I believe that the color predates widespread use of night vision equipment in the Russian aircraft.

Snehashis · Post by **Snehashis** » 23 Jan 2012 19:14

Another possibility is for achieving better contrast with the old Radium dialed instruments at night ?

On a lighter note it could be the favourite color of Stalin and now Putin.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 23 Jan 2012 19:31

Badar wrote:
Rahul M wrote:classic ! x-posting on kitaab-e-chehra
Does BR have a facebook account? Just did a search and saw a bunch of squatter accounts.

BR has a twitter a/c & a FB group. jagan has a BR IAF a/c.
https://twitter.com/bharatrakshak
http://www.facebook.com/groups/115853814490/
http://www.facebook.com/BharatRakshak.IndianAirForce

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 23 Jan 2012 19:34

nachiket wrote:I don't know, the LCA's dull grey looks somehow more soothing to me..

[img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-8xghANdSacU/T ... 5%2529.jpg[*/img]

the mig-27 upg went from that odd blue to dull grey.

I think the soviet blue was just the standard issue interior paint, no study mudy went into it.

CM, the mig-21 did have a HUD.

regarding cockpit ergonomics, the soviet ones were supposedly engineer's cockpit, easy for the engineers to design and upgrade and for mechanics to maintain. western ones were supposedly pilot's cockpits.

>> Putin
they no longer use it, so putin must favour grey.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Jan 2012 20:59

The turquoise blue is more disturbing or less pleasing than just plain gray shades. jmo. I am not sure if color blindness is no-no for fighter pilots [dunno], but even a lighter sky blue would bother pilots in a low lit night flight. trainees however has more focus needs than an experienced pilots who can multi-task with confidence., so a possibility of nuisance value can be avoided by right interior colors.

Will · Post by **Will** » 23 Jan 2012 21:03

As far as looks go , the LCA cockpit does suck a bit

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 23 Jan 2012 21:21

Will wrote:As far as looks go , the LCA cockpit does suck a bit

It should not be about looks Will but about Human Factors Engineering. It was used by the Bombay Stock Exchange in 1994 to design the screens for brokers and brokerage houses so that they could take decisions quickly to place their orders for sell/buy fast.

So what is the use if it looks good and is fatiguing, does not present information in the right order and on time. Being shot down is not funny.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_factors_engineering

Cheers

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Jan 2012 21:29

precisely, but wherever possible, one must consider pleasing colors aesthetics if possible. nevertheless, usability engineering and designing is uno factor for man-machine interface, especially the kind one hears about a push button switch for FBW engagement that can be accidentally triggered. systems can be designed for such by providing confirmation or by disengaging such risky function in motion... again it is my assumption that there is no need for pilots to disengage fbw in flight like in MKI.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Jan 2012 21:40

AFAIK see even the IAF Su-30MKI uses those blue/green colour in the cockpit , interesting na ?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-MoxXmYp4whs/T ... 2%2529.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-tBNHKWJPLuA/T ... 1%2529.jpg

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Jan 2012 22:55

What is more interesting is the people's / pilots mindset.. they were so used to the round looking dials for all measurements and indicators.. that has been mimicked to be the design even for the digital display screen new age tech. Just highlighting people are used to certain ways, is very difficult to change.. like driving from left side to right side is a challenge. May be, they are used to a certain style.

Tremendous resistance to change perhaps is the other reason.. unless the technology overrides and it is totally new and a value addition., or it is introduced to entirely new set of pilots.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Jan 2012 23:01

^^^ Why change when it proven to work ?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 23 Jan 2012 23:05

Will wrote:As far as looks go , the LCA cockpit does suck a bit

not really. there are very few (read none) shots of LCA cockpit in optimum conditions.

______________
psyche, dials let you absorb info without necessarily reading every figure. we are quicker at decoding pics (needle at extreme right means x) than reading numbers.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Jan 2012 23:19

Austin wrote:^^^ Why change when it proven to work ?

lot of design requirements that matters actually, but not necessarily needed here:

1. change in technology that can provide more accurate measurements/more fine grained data. [or increase in visual or tacit feedback, say on altimeter].
2. integration into HMD, where the area of display is perhaps smaller than on HUD.
3. some corrections to design is impeded by the way it is displayed currently.. I can't think of an example here., may adding another measurement unit?

Well., you are right that it is proven to work.. but when one thinks next gen, there is a chance to look at aspects what else existing designs that can be done better?
--
mahul! you are 100% right.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 24 Jan 2012 03:12

Austin wrote:^^^ Why change when it proven to work ?

Who says it's proven to work ? There is not a single authoritative source that suggests that using that shade of teal influences pilot well being in the cockpit. Otherwise the question would be, what on earth is the reason for the IAF to not use that colour for ALL its cockpits?

Seems to me that those Su-30MKIs have that as the default cockpit colour (they may have been Russian built) and the IAF hasn't bothered to change it. Even our own MiG-29s don't have that teal shade inside.

Even the Indian Navy's MiG-29K has a pale gray interior.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 24 Jan 2012 03:35

to add to that.
original flogger cockpit on left and DARE upg cockpit on right.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 24 Jan 2012 03:40

Came upon this thread on airliners.net on the same subject - http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forum ... n/1683077/

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Jan 2012 04:09

For a radar tracking from top of the a/c, I am seeing all these designs are of lower RCS.

Raman · Post by **Raman** » 24 Jan 2012 06:51

Just pure speculation here, but I can imagine that the contrast between the daytime sky and the panel is greatly reduced with the teal cockpit. It may mean that the eye's irises aren't constantly contracting and dilating when checking instruments and looking out again. With the advent of HUDs and HMDs, it may be less of an issue.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 24 Jan 2012 10:07

Raman wrote:Just pure speculation here, but I can imagine that the contrast between the daytime sky and the panel is greatly reduced with the teal cockpit. It may mean that the eye's irises aren't constantly contracting and dilating when checking instruments and looking out again. With the advent of HUDs and HMDs, it may be less of an issue.

Raman ji, I was just about to type what you did. It merges in well with daytime sky colour and the instrument panels also stand out in such a scenario. My 2 cents.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Jan 2012 10:24

Kartik wrote:Who says it's proven to work ? There is not a single authoritative source that suggests that using that shade of teal influences pilot well being in the cockpit. Otherwise the question would be, what on earth is the reason for the IAF to not use that colour for ALL its cockpits?

Well the only answer i found when i posted this query on russian forum was

"The teal color was found a long time ago by Soviet psychologists to be the least distracting for the pilots when constantly switching their view between looking at the sky and looking at the instrument cluster."

Now its possible with the advent of LCD cockpit and compliant NVG the background colour does not matter much .....so may be the IAF has chosen to go with light grey colour and the RuAF continues to use the same teal colour on all its modern aircraft. check the cockpit of the now inducted YAK-130 same teal colour
http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/dat ... kpit_1.jpg

I think the background colour may not matter now and every AF chooses what it thinks is appropriate.

negi · Post by **negi** » 24 Jan 2012 10:34

^ Well the sky over urban areas in India is seldom blue so may be switching to grey makes sense.

Will · Post by **Will** » 24 Jan 2012 12:14

rajanb wrote:
Will wrote:As far as looks go , the LCA cockpit does suck a bit
It should not be about looks Will but about Human Factors Engineering. It was used by the Bombay Stock Exchange in 1994 to design the screens for brokers and brokerage houses so that they could take decisions quickly to place their orders for sell/buy fast.

So what is the use if it looks good and is fatiguing, does not present information in the right order and on time. Being shot down is not funny.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_factors_engineering

Cheers

Get your point. But they could make it more pleasing to the eye like the western aircraft. But then again as Rahul pointed out we are yet to see a pic of a complete version of the LCA cockpit.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 24 Jan 2012 12:23

Will wrote:quote="Will"]As far as looks go , the LCA cockpit does suck a bit

It should not be about looks Will but about Human Factors Engineering. It was used by the Bombay Stock Exchange in 1994 to design the screens for brokers and brokerage houses so that they could take decisions quickly to place their orders for sell/buy fast.

So what is the use if it looks good and is fatiguing, does not present information in the right order and on time. Being shot down is not funny.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_factors_engineering

Cheers

Get your point. But they could make it more pleasing to the eye like the western aircraft. But then again as Rahul pointed out we are yet to see a pic of a complete version of the LCA cockpit.

Agreed. But let's get out first customer using it and then the bells and whistles can be plugged into the production a/c.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Jan 2012 18:47

nope.. wrong. we can't spend like that, and change is not easy. The reason why big giants like boeing and lm are into virtual reality.

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 24 Jan 2012 19:43

Kartik wrote: Even the Indian Navy's MiG-29K has a pale gray interior.

Sir ji, i think that is the Mig-29 SMT cockpit.

The IN mig-29k cockpit should be this one:

member_20163 · Post by **member_20163** » 24 Jan 2012 20:07

Nik Hi, Are these Samtel MFDs, They look lil big as used to see in SU30MKI. The config looks awesome..

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Jan 2012 21:58

Yeah that must be the Mig-29SMT or MMRCA which came to bangalore , I am told the Russian Mig-29SMT has a grey cockpit colour , prolly the odd one out for them

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Jan 2012 22:11

PAK-FA should compare with

or

but .... must beat:

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Jan 2012 22:16

Please note the minor details, but very important in terms of ergo and ease of use.

eg: joy stick is much more hold-able for the user sake - also look angle and position.

Rafale - couple of displays are to right or left.. imho, is a poor design in terms of line of sight hindered by the joy sticks or other obstructions.

but what is advantageous for Ef, is a lack for others..

bottom line, the pilot should not peep or bend or adjust himself for viewing display.. it should be without obstructions.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Jan 2012 22:21

The way PAK-FA cockpit looks now it would look similar to F-35 cockpit

I think some cockpit might appear eye candy to a lay observer but may not be functionally as useful , while F-35 or PAK-FA cockpit might not appear eye candy to lay observer but could be functionally very useful to pilot. JMT

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Jan 2012 01:55

Perhaps AMCA could do a Joint work on this..