Indian Army: News & Discussion

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Prasad
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Prasad » 27 Jan 2012 13:54

Surya saar,
Is hez-b the only group that marches that way? :)

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nelson » 27 Jan 2012 14:15

rohitvats wrote:nelson, I think the order came about because of men/women using the social media to discuss things best left out of public domain. In addition, the pics posted online sometimes go beyond the appropriate level. I've seen pics which I don't think should have been public domain. Yes, most of net users from Services are quite sensitive to what they share/put on net, there are cases of negligence.

I think it is more of a knee jerk reaction in the wake of ill publicity. In this two basic tenets of command have been forgotten.
1. Punish privately, praise publicly.
2. No collective punishment.
Why should the entire Army be punished for fault of few?

Notwithstanding the merits/ demerits of above case I still maintain that our Armed forces are the most backward and regressive in terms of empowerment of the man on ground with latest technology in peace and war.


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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Kanson » 27 Jan 2012 18:15


http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?279698

Indian Army: Whose Personal Fiefdom?
Exposing ‘and punishing’ the conspirators and co-conspirators by the Supreme Court is now as important as giving a verdict on the DOB of General V.K. Singh.
Lt Gen Prakash C. Katoch (Retd)


I kind of like his blunt talking compared to ex- Army Chief who only mildly nudged that RM should have acted sagaciously.

As I see, so far, figures are only pointing at Army and Civilian bureaucracy and not at any political figures behind the conspiracy.

Attorney General action is more of a client to the ruling party who reversed the earlier Law ministry verdict which was in favour of VKS. So the right question to be asked is on whose prodding AG gave such opinion.

Excuses like RM was misled by civilians to give a wrong info to the parliament hence the obduracy are simply canards to distract from getting to the bottom of the truth. Everyone responsible are party to the crime. Actually rot happened is much sinister. Let's see whose going to unearth those uncomfortable facts.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Kanson » 27 Jan 2012 18:15

nelson wrote:
rohitvats wrote:nelson, I think the order came about because of men/women using the social media to discuss things best left out of public domain. In addition, the pics posted online sometimes go beyond the appropriate level. I've seen pics which I don't think should have been public domain. Yes, most of net users from Services are quite sensitive to what they share/put on net, there are cases of negligence.

I think it is more of a knee jerk reaction in the wake of ill publicity. In this two basic tenets of command have been forgotten.
1. Punish privately, praise publicly.
2. No collective punishment.
Why should the entire Army be punished for fault of few?

Notwithstanding the merits/ demerits of above case I still maintain that our Armed forces are the most backward and regressive in terms of empowerment of the man on ground with latest technology in peace and war.


So what are the options?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nelson » 27 Jan 2012 18:56

Kanson wrote:....

So what are the options?


Educate officers and men. Do not do lip service in form of unimplementable cyber security 'SOP'.

Provide them with means to enforce and follow laid down security. Give them basic H/w & S/w to work freely and without fear.

If any one breeches security censure and warn them.

If mistake is repeated or grave enough by some, punish them severely, set an example. Do not punish every one for the fault of few.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nelson » 27 Jan 2012 19:18

^^See this for example.

http://www.rediff.com/news/report/india ... 120127.htm

From the above link
A police letter to this effect has been drawn out by the director general of military intelligence with detailed instructions on use of internet.

The letter, accessed by rediff.com, states, "As a policy, use of internet through email and social networks is permitted only for private use, and under no circumstances will the personnel disclose their official identity on the internet in any form whatsoever."

See the problem lies else where. When a policy letter which probably would not have reached the intended has already been 'accessed' by DDM what can you say...

Service personnel have been refrained from uploading any information pertaining to their ranks, units or formations, appointment, place of duty or place of movement, contact numbers, pictures in uniform or with backgrounds depicting any defence establishment.

Very fair.

Officers have also been asked to not comment on matters related to the policies or activities of the Indian Defence Services, Ministry of Defence and the government.

Yes, the govt can squeeze their b@!!s but they are not expected to whimper, even.

...
Any groups such as NDA 53, SODE97, DSSC65, formed by any course, batch, or unit have been asked to be deleted with immediate effect.

This shows why our Army is still caught in Industrial age and refuses to acknowledge information age.

...
While in the past, a number of guidelines have been issued on the use of internet and social networking sites, they have not been implemented in the desired manner, leading to a large number of cases of breaches in security of information.

... see the problem lies here. The lack of wherewithal to implement earlier orders on the subject or provide decent facilities in this realm.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nelson » 27 Jan 2012 19:31


Surya
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Surya » 27 Jan 2012 20:20

Repeating

do we know which contingent from theArmy won last years (2011) best marching contingent award?

prasad

assorted Islamic groups and armies march that way

the SSG included

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nelson » 27 Jan 2012 21:01

Surya wrote:Repeating

do we know which contingent from theArmy won last years (2011) best marching contingent award?

...


The best marching contingent is awarded in the 'category of tri-services marching contingent', apart from other categories.
In 2011 it was won by Indian Air Force, as this article says...

http://news.oneindia.in/2011/01/30/airforce-adjudged-best-marching-contingent-in-republicday-aid0121.html

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Surya » 27 Jan 2012 21:28

nelson

Thanks
I saw that but I am curious to know within the Army ones which was the best.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nelson » 27 Jan 2012 21:52

^AFAIK There is no separate category like best army marching contingent. Normally, this tri-services category would also have been won by one of the Army contingents only. Last year was one of those exceptions.

This time too i think IAF contingent will win, but for the BEG contingent. touch and go.

Of course there is a best marching contingent of the Army Day parade every year.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Surya » 27 Jan 2012 22:07

nelson

reason I asked was someone said that the best army maching contingent leads the paraded followed by the Guards

So maybe its the winner of the Army day parade

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Yayavar » 27 Jan 2012 22:44

nelson wrote:
Kanson wrote:....

So what are the options?


Educate officers and men. Do not do lip service in form of unimplementable cyber security 'SOP'.

Provide them with means to enforce and follow laid down security. Give them basic H/w & S/w to work freely and without fear.

If any one breeches security censure and warn them.

If mistake is repeated or grave enough by some, punish them severely, set an example. Do not punish every one for the fault of few.


facebook and other social media sites do not have a good privacy policy. They are more than happy to share the info with one and all and not protect the data. Additionally they share the data with the countries they are primarily registered in.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby sanjeevpunj » 27 Jan 2012 23:05

Source:http://www.timesofassam.com/headlines/no-more-facebook-for-indian-army/

No more Facebook for Indian Army

The Indian Army is reported to have issued orders asking all its men, officers and other ranks, who had joined social networking sites like Facebook or Orkut earlier to immediately quit them. Those who have not joined such social networking sites have also been directed not to be available in such sites in future.
As per sources, Indian Army had been monitoring their officers if they were posting any pictures of themselves or their units in uniform or their weaponry. However it has now been decided that none of their men would be allowed to join such sites, so that there is no possibility of information leakage.
Strict actions are expected if any violations to this directive are done, sources stated.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Surya » 27 Jan 2012 23:52

from an email sent to me\Kaps by one of our friends

It happens sometimes........





[i]THE TEA SHOP




They were on their way to the post where they would be deployed for next three months. The batch being relieved, was waiting anxiously for their arrival so that they could fall back to safer confines of their parent unit. Some would proceed on leave and meet their families. They were happy that they were to relieve a set of comrades who had done their job.
It was a treacherous climb and the journey was to last till the next evening. Cold winter month with intermittent snowfall added to the torture. If only some one could offer a cup of tea, the Major thought, knowing completely well that it was a futile wish.

They continued for another hour before they came across a dilapidated structure which looked like a small shop. It was locked.

It was 2 o'clock in the night and there was no house close to the shop where the owner could be located. In any case it was not advisable to knock any doors in the night for security reasons. It was a stalemate. No tea boys, bad luck.

The Major told the men to take some rest since they had been walking for more than three hours now.

Sir, this is a tea shop indeed and we can make tea. We will have to break the lock though. The officer was in doubt about the proposed action but a steaming cup of tea was not a bad idea. He thought for a while and permitted for the lock to be broken. The lock was broken.
They were in luck. The place was a shop indeed and had everything required to make tea, and also a few packets of biscuits. The tea was prepared and it brought great relief to all in the cold night. They were now ready for the long and treacherous walk ahead of them and started to get ready to move.


The officer was in thoughts. They had broken open the lock and prepared tea and consumed biscuits without the permission of the owner. The payment was due but there was no one in sight. The Major was not however moving out without doing what was to be done. He took out a Rs 1000/- note from his wallet and kept it on the counter, pressed under the sugar container, so that the owner sees it first thing when he arrives in the morning. He was now relieved of the guilt and ordered the move.

Days, weeks and months passed. They continued to do gallantly what they were required to do and were lucky not to loose any one from the original group in the intense insurgency situation. And then one day, it was time to be replaced by another brave lot.

Soon they were on their way back and stopped at the same shop, which was today open with the owner in place. He was an old man with very meager resources and was happy to see eight of them with the prospect of selling at least eight cups of tea that day.

All of them had their tea and spoke to the old man about his life and experiences in general, selling tea at such remote a location. The poor, old man had many stories to tell all of them, replete with his faith in God.

"Kya Baba, yadi Allah hota to kyaa aap ke jaisa 'Allah kaa bandaa' is haal main hota, said one of them"; moved by his poverty and faith in God.

"Nahin Sahib, aise mat kaho, God actually exists. I got the proof a few months back.

I was going through very tough times because my only son had been severely beaten by the terrorists who wanted some information from him which he did not have. I had closed the shop early that day and had taken my son to the hospital. There were medicines to be purchased and I had no money. No one would give me a loan from fear of the terrorists. There was no hope, Sahib.

And that day Sahib, I had prayed to Allah for help. And that day Sahib, Allah walked into my shop.

When I returned to my shop that day and saw the lock broken, I thought someone had broken in and had taken away whatever little I had. But then I saw that 'Allah' had left Rs 1000/-under the sugar pot. Sahib, I can't tell you what that money was worth that day. Allah exists Sahib, he does. I know people are dying every day here but all of you will soon meet your near and dear ones, your children, and you must thank your God Sahib, he is watching all of us. He does exist. He walked in my shop that day. I know he did."

The faith in his eyes was unflinching. It was unnerving. Seven set of eyes looked at their officer and read the order in his eyes clear and unambiguous, 'Keep quiet.'

The officer got up and paid the bill and hugged the old man. "Yes Baba, I know,God does exist - and yes the tea was wonderful. Seven set of eyes did not miss the moisture building in the eyes of the Major, a rare sight.[/i]

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 28 Jan 2012 04:12

Good one Surya. Fact or fiction?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby shyamd » 28 Jan 2012 05:52

Antony cracks whip

Army chief Gen V K Singh should have known that he was unlikely to get a sympathetic response from Defence Minister A K Antony on the issue of his birth date. As chairperson of the AICC disciplinary committee for many years, Antony always opted for cracking the whip, whether it was Ashok Chavan, Shashi Tharoor or Natwar Singh. Antony goes entirely by file notations. Singh’s tenure will be remembered for the controversy about his age and little else. Thanks to the standoff between the Ministry of Defence and Army Headquarters, several decisions were put on hold. In fact, no major equipment for the artillery, infantry or aviation corps has been purchased despite the urgent need for procurement and upgrade. Even fast-track purchases have been held up for the last three years.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 28 Jan 2012 08:09

Thats not cracking the whip. Its par for the course for Mr Do Nothing Anthony. He has ensured no procurements that augment the Indian military with some excuse or the other ever since he took office. Its his way of viewing the Civil Military Relations.


....
Thanks to the standoff between the Ministry of Defence and Army Headquarters, several decisions were put on hold. In fact, no major equipment for the artillery, infantry or aviation corps has been purchased despite the urgent need for procurement and upgrade. Even fast-track purchases have been held up for the last three years.



He has been doing this even before the DOB issue. So what new?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Kakkaji » 28 Jan 2012 09:46

I don't think VKS has been the COAS for the last 3 years. Anthony and his minions in the MOD have been delaying arms purchases long before VKS got into the post of COAS.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 28 Jan 2012 09:53

Exactly. Its a humbug news article. Another excuse to do nothing. And they want to know why the Army can't attack after a terrorist strike. from 2004 to 2008 they made sure readiness is reduced. And after 2008 made sure nothing gets bought!

And talk about being clean as if its the purchase of weapons is the cause of corruption instead of the politician grabbing money with both hands from the arms seller and passing the costs to the people of India.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby sum » 28 Jan 2012 10:10

sum wrote:What is it in India that retired intel folks and others turn into such anti-armed forces?

Why we need to 'de-militarise' Republic Day

When we celebrate Republic Day, and not Armed Forces Day, there needs to be more of fun and colour, and less of khaki, argues Anil Chowdhry

As a person who has been actively involved in the elaborate arrangements for the grand pageantry of the Republic Day parade for almost a decade -- first as the head of the Delhi Subsidiary Intelligence Bureau and then Intelligence Bureau's VIP security wing, I have always felt the rules of the show need to be recast.

While in service I was bound by norms to remain discreet, but now that sufficient time has elapsed since I retired, I have less hesitation in expressing my objections openly. I welcome comments, particularly opposing views.

The responsibility for organising the grand event, unique by the very nature of its scale, should be shifted out of the ministry of defence to the ministry of cultural affairs which should constitute a core group with representatives from the government of the National Capital Territory of Delhi, civic dodies, ministry of defence, home ministry, etc and sub-committees to manage the nitty-gritties of the arrangements.

If for no other reason, then simply because we are a democracy and a Republic, and not a military State. The MoD managing the entire show from issuing of the invitations to the approval of tableaux with soldiers in uniform marching on either side of the floats and folk dancers, makes no sense; in fact it is most inappropriate.


The programme needs to be pruned drastically by cutting out the march pasts by various contingents from the army to make the spectacle crisper and interesting.

One contingent each from the Army, Air Force, Navy, the central paramilitary forces and the police, in my view, should suffice instead of contingents including bands from different regiments of the Army marching past one after another with names of the commanders, band masters, etc announced repeatedly.

This is even more relevant since a feast of the best in martial music by the best defence forces bands follows a few days later at the Beating of Retreat.

I think the audience enjoys more than anything else the colourful floats and folk dances that bring out the myriad colours of India's diverse culture, and we should have a lot more of these.


Paying of tributes at the Amar Jawan Jyoti on India Gate and award of medals for gallantry to our brave soldiers are perfectly in order, but to be subjected to the antics of an army supply corps despatch rider sipping tea from a cup and saucer, while riding on his Enfield Bullet, appeared rather ridiculous!

Are we celebrating our freedom and democracy on Republic Day or the Armed Forces Day? If it is the former, there should be more colour and fun and less of khaki. Is it an occasion to rejoice or is it a solemn day -- I ask my fellow citizens, especially the intelligentsia.

I say all this, but the situation will not change because in the government we all know how to guard our turf, and the defence forces do a better job of guarding theirs than others!

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 28 Jan 2012 10:22

Wonder how the UPSC selects such cretins into govt service?

The Republic Day parade was to mirror Emperor Chandragutpa Maurya's practice of having a parade to show the power and assure the citizens of the state forces for which they paid.


Can that great intel man tell us how well he protected two Prime Ministers who were killed? And the father of the nation was killed right after security passed into Indian Police hands? can he tell us how Lal Bahadur Sastri's doctor wasnt available when suffered a heart attack in Tashkent?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby kunalverma » 28 Jan 2012 11:34

364 days, 24 by 7 we are bombarded by Indian Culture on TV in any case. Maybe next year we can have a few 'item numbers' in front of the President.
If anything, the country knows nothing about our Army in particular. At the very least, the Republic Day parade for a brief moment brings them to the fore. When a contingent from the Assam Regiment is marching, I for one am proudly telling my daughters about Kohima, Jassami and whatever I know of them. The Jats mean Dograi, the Rajputs Nam ka Chu and Akhaura, the Sikhs Bum La. Maybe the commentary needs to raise its level to match the occassion.
One things alsop for sure. Military World Games opening and closing ceremonies were not that different from the Commonwealth Games. The cost between an Army organized show and the CWG organized show was, well, er significant.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby chaanakya » 28 Jan 2012 12:08

Watching NCC rally live on DD National. Great show.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rajatmisra » 28 Jan 2012 17:18

Surya wrote:nelson

reason I asked was someone said that the best army maching contingent leads the paraded followed by the Guards

So maybe its the winner of the Army day parade


The Delhi police uses .303 with bayonets while marching. Looked quite elegant and different from army contingents. Must be much heavier than tHe INSAS, frOm what I recall from Ncc days.
Does the army still use these? For training? Or is it all Insas?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rajatmisra » 28 Jan 2012 17:18

Surya wrote:nelson

reason I asked was someone said that the best army maching contingent leads the paraded followed by the Guards

So maybe its the winner of the Army day parade


The Delhi police uses .303 with bayonets while marching. Looked quite elegant and different from army contingents. Must be much heavier than tHe INSAS, frOm what I recall from Ncc days.
Does the army still use these? For training? Or is it all Insas?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nelson » 28 Jan 2012 17:51

Surya wrote:nelson

reason I asked was someone said that the best army maching contingent leads the paraded followed by the Guards

So maybe its the winner of the Army day parade


That happens in NCC parades like PM's rally, where there is no difference in seniority between directorates.

AFAIR, the marching contingents in Army / Republic day parades have been strictly in the order of seniority.

With reduction in number of marching contingents an infantry regiment gets to take part in Republic day parade once in three to four years. So there is little chance of repetition in consecutive years.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nelson » 28 Jan 2012 17:55

A year-wise list of marching contingents in Republic day parade.
from http://www.pib.nic.in
2011
61st Cavalry - mounted
Punjab Regiment,
Grenadiers Regiment,
Rajputana Rifles Regiment,
Rajput Regiment,
Sikh Light Infantry Regiment,
Jammu and Kashmir Light Infantry,
3 Gorkha Rifles
Territorial Army

2010
Brigade of the Guards,
Madras Regiment,
Jat Regiment,
Sikh Regiment,
Dogra Regiment,
Bihar Regiment,
Gorkha Regiment
Territorial Army.

2009
Parachute Regiment,
Rajput Regiment,
Kumaon Regiment,
Garhwal Rifles,
Maratha Light Infantry Regiment,
Territorial Army Punjab,
J&K Rifles
Ladakh Scouts

2008
Punjab Regiment,
Grenadiers Regiment,
Rajputana Rifles Regiment,
Sikh Light Infantry Regiment,
Assam Regiment
Mahar Regiment,
8 Gorkha Rifles and
Territorial Army (126 & 155 Infantry Battalion)

2007
Parachute Regiment,
Brigade of the Guards,
Rajput Regiment,
Jat Regiment,
Sikh Regiment,
Dogra Regiment,
Bihar Regiment,
JAKLI Regiment,
Territorial Army (Maratha LI)

2006
Maratha Light Infantry Regiment,
Rajputana Rifles Regiment,
Sikh Light Infantry Regiment,
Garhwal Rifles Regiment,
Kumaon Regiment,
Jammu and Kashmir Rifles
Territorial Army (SIKH)

2005
The Brigade of GUARDS Regt
PUNJAB Regt
GRENADIERS Regt
Jat Regt
SIKH Regt
DOGRA Regt.
BIHAR Regt.
MAHAR Regt.
JAK L1 Regt.
The 9 Gorkha Rifles and The 8 Gorkha Rifles
The Territorial Army (119 Inf Bn ASSAM)

One may be able to figure out the inter-se ceremonial seniority of the regiments participating.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby trushant » 28 Jan 2012 18:13

Some breaking news coming on Headlines Today right now

Sources saying "Compromise formula reached between the army chief and govt"

VKS to withdraw petition from SC while Govt accepts his DoB as 1951. He still steps down on 31st May 2012.

Gaurav Sawant says wait and watch

searching for the link.

over and out

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nelson » 28 Jan 2012 18:16

^Highly unlikely.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 28 Jan 2012 18:21

if govt agrees then I can see VKS agreeing to this.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nelson » 28 Jan 2012 18:23

nelson wrote:...

This time too i think IAF contingent will win, but for the BEG contingent. touch and go.


As expected...
Republic Day – 2012 Awards

Three panels of judges were appointed for assessing the performance of Marching Contingent from three Services, Marching Contingent from Para­Military Forces and Tableaux from various States/ Ministries/Departments and School Children items from schools of Delhi as well as outside Delhi.

On the basis of the assessment of the panels of judges, the results of the competitive presentation of Services contingents, Para-military forces contingents, tableaux and school children items, participated in the Republic Day Parade, 2012 are as under:-

I. BEST MARCHING CONTINGENT AMONG THE THREE SERVICES

INDIAN AIR FORCE

II. BEST MARCHING CONTINGENT AMONG PARA-MILITARY FORCES AND OTHER AUXILARY MARCHING CONTINGENTS

BORDER SECURITY FORCE (BSF)
...

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 28 Jan 2012 19:47

Rahul M wrote:if govt agrees then I can see VKS agreeing to this.


Remember Anna Hazare movement? It is better if Govt first keeps its promise. VKS if withdraws or differs, will not get his due.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Katare » 28 Jan 2012 22:22

Unfaire comments on AK and Anil Chowdhry....

More capital budget, both absolute and % of total, has been spent by AK than any DM in the last decade. So these charges of inactions has been overdone at BRF/media, although a case for more aggressive procurement can be made but that will come at risk of some yahoo pulling another scandal and shutting down entire procurement process.

Showing off military might on republic day by parading missiles, tanks and guns is a Russian led eastern block culture thing that was started to scare off weatern world. It is still practised to extream degree by nut cases like Kim jong il/un of NoKO. There is a good case for slowly mooving away from naked military might show-off to more of a democratic celebration, veterans parade, limited domestic MIC display type formate that dipicts image of a confidant nation.

Although I think armed forces might loose a good and rare opportunity to show off and educate aam janta about its capabilities but that can be done on a separate armed forces day.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Sanku » 28 Jan 2012 23:26

Katare wrote:Showing off military might on republic day by parading missiles, tanks and guns is a Russian led eastern block culture thing .


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Actually French. You might want to look up the basics.

Unless of course Massa == west.

--------------------

Also fairly odd post to make in a forum which believes that Indian military has always been given the short end of the stick and needs more exposure and not less.

-------------------

Also no need to whitewash the incredible levels of incompetence by all members of UPA, with AK Antony now making it clear that he is after all, cut from the UPA cloth.

Did he also want to teach "These fauji's a lesson", like his counterpart in the Science and Tech Ministry?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 29 Jan 2012 00:49

Why Gen VK Singh’s D.O.B is not just a ‘personal’ matter

January 27, 2012

BY RSN SINGH

The controversy over the army chief’s date of birth (d.o.b.) is bizarre and probably symptomatic of the degradation of value systems at the higher echelons of the army. It is definitely not a sudden development.

Officers of the rank of lieutenant general have gone to the civil courts on matters relating to promotions in the past. The only institution which had no need to do so was that of the army chief, because that was the end of the hierarchy and the ladder. But then there was the allure of post-retirement sinecure and many army chiefs were perceived to be bending backwards for it.

Eventually, by a seemingly capillary action, the malaise crept right to the top. The system had acquired such a culture of sleaze and conspiracy over the years that there was an attempt to even manipulate the duration and succession chain of the institution.

Gen VK Singh’s decision to go to the Supreme Court is a manifestation of this. The case otherwise was so simple – or such a non-issue- that its resolution was more a matter of common sense than judicial intervention.

The case arose from a difference in the records of the Military Secretary’s Branch and the Adjutant General’s (AG’s) Branch of the army. The latter is the usual record-keeper.

In Gen Singh’s case, the ministry of defence decided that it will go by the Military Secretary’s records – when common sense should have told it to do otherwise. In fact, the MoD has done so in at least one earlier case.

In a strikingly similar case, one Col Ramesh Chander Joshi (IC-16142) received his orders for retirement from the MS Branch (vide Letter No. 30004/Sep 96/Tech/MS Retirement w.e.f. 30 September 1996) based on the fact that his date of birth was listed as 22 September 1944.

However, the records with the Adjutant General’s branch clearly indicated his date of birth as 25 November 1945. The officer communicated this anomaly to the MS Branch. In the absence of reply, on the last day of his retirement, i.e. 30 September 1996, the officer had no option but to send a signal directly to the army chief.

Promptly, on the same day, the officer received a message “This HQ letter No 30004/Sep/96/Tech/MS Retirement of 13 Sep 1996 regarding retirement of IC 16142 Col Ramesh Chander Joshi Engrs of E-in-c’s Branch Army Hq w.e.f. from 30 Sep 96 is hereby cancelled. The claimed date of birth as 25 Nov 45 has been accepted by ministry of defence (MoD). Officer will continue in service till further orders.”

As in the case of Gen Singh, the date of birth column in the UPSC form in respect of Col Joshi had been incorrectly filled and was corrected by the UPSC first and subsequently by the National Defence Academy (NDA) once his Senior Cambridge certificate arrived.

Col Joshi wonders: “If it has happened in my case why not in the case of Gen VK Singh?”

Most army officers are bewildered and question: where is the scope for controversy?

Various military secretaries who had dealt with the case, in keeping with their moral imperative, could have ‘corrected’ their records within a matter of hours.


A simple acknowledgement of the mistake could have done much to establish fairplay, judgment and credibility on the part of the Military Secretary Branch. This acknowledgement would otherwise have made no difference to the date of birth of Gen Singh, as the Army List has no legal sanctity. An acknowledgement or acceptance of mistake was desired because it was repeated over more than 36 years. Every year, at the time of the general’s Annual Confidential Records, his date of birth was mentioned as 10 May 1951.

There are scores of such cases in the Army List, wherein the date of birth, or IC number or name is wrongly entered. People have retired as lieutenant generals with wrong IC numbers in the Army List. If these military secretaries were ‘men of honour’ they should have accepted their ‘omissions’ and tried to clean up the functioning of the MS Branch.

The buzz among army insiders is that these gentlemen entered into a conspiracy with at least two army chiefs and subsequent powers that be in inflicting their mistake or omission (of not correcting the army chief’s d.o.b.) and blackmailing Gen Singh by using the inaccurate and inconsequential document called the ‘Army List’ as tool.

Some 90 percent officers in the army retire without seeing the Army List. There is a popular saying in the army that only crooks and careerists see the Army List.

But what does one make of Gen Singh’s alleged acceptance of his date of birth – an acceptance demanded by the MS Branch before he was made a corps commander?

Gen Singh’s detractors are clutching the straw of ‘acceptance’ in their defence. An ‘acceptance’ of a date of birth cannot get one a driving licence or passport, let alone make an ‘army chief’. An ‘acceptance’ cannot be construed as ‘self-declaration’. Any ‘acceptance’ cannot be in the absence of a ‘demand’ and, in Gen Singh’s case, it was looked like intimidation or blackmail, which clearly indicates that the higher echelons are bereft of common decencies.

No civilised officer will use the kind of language that the concerned military secretaries used with an officer who was to be appointed the next army chief. Imagine the agony of the lower rung! Sample the non-civilised import of language used by the MS in respect of Gen Singh.

In a letter dated 21 June 2008, the military secretary wrote to Gen Singh, “we are constrained to maintain your official date of birth as 10 May 1950, and same may kindly be reflected in all your records and documents. The AG’s branch is accordingly intimated to amend the records being maintained by them.” (Note: this is nothing but megalomania, as the MS Branch has no authority over the AG’s Branch in matters of personal particulars of an officer; in fact it is otherwise).

In another letter dated 21 January 2008, the MS said: “… we are constrained to maintain your official date of birth as 10 May 1950, and the same may kindly be reflected in all your records… Please acknowledge and confirm acceptance.”

Then comes the threat. “Request fwd (forward) ack (acknowledgement) and confirm acceptance of date of birth as given in para 5 (five) of letter dated 21 January 2008… (.) If reply not received by 1000 hrs on 25 Jan 08 action deemed appropriate will be taken (.) (from MS to Gen Singh dated 24 Jan 2008).

No man of honour will digest such intimidation and blackmail. It is very much honourable to deal with dishonourable men and their vicious agendas from a position of relative advantage. This is exactly what the general has done. He has moved incrementally by first appealing to the good and moral sense of the powers that be. It is in this spirit that the legal opinion of four former and honourable Chief Justices of India was solicited.

A guilty man will not do that. A man with a chink in his armour will not go to the Supreme Court of India. Only an honourable man at the end of his career will put everything on the line. Those who, therefore, are insinuating that the general has taken this drastic step for an additional 10 months in office have simply lost their moral bearings. It took almost four months (more than the mandatory period) for the defence minister to give his verdict on the statutory complaint filed by his army chief.

And within these days, there were statements from the MoD that the defence minister was not bound by any time stipulation. From the manner of treatment of the statutory complaint, it is evident that the whole idea was to buy a few months so that the announcement of the new chief could be made as per a designed ‘succession plan’.

If the defence minister takes four months to adjudicate on a statutory complaint of his army chief, one can imagine the plight of a jawan of the Indian army. Then there was planted propaganda that the general may tender his resignation, thus upsetting the ‘succession plan’. Some bureaucrats this author interacted with pompously boasted that the general would not even be allowed to resign, as he serves at the pleasure of the President.

Meanwhile, owing to the role played by certain responsible and patriotic segments of the media, the truth gained currency and the government realised that it was morally and legally very vulnerable. One of the senior ministers admitted in private that the issue was botched up and could have serious political repercussions.

Some ministers expressed their helplessness in deference to the fiat of a caucus of extra-constitutional authorities. It is the same story: all conspiracies and scams in recent times smack of a major influence of this extra-constitutional caucus.

The government initially resorted to threats. When that did not work, it sent various emissaries with allurements of post-retirement sinecures. When that was not bought, it sent mediators for a compromise. The moot question is compromise on what?

Concomitantly, there was an orchestrated media campaign to dissuade Gen Singh from going to court and make him resign. Now, a scare is being raised that the honourable Supreme Court will question the maintainability of his petition and ask Gen Singh to go to the Armed Forces Tribunal. In fact, for some reason, there is a feverish attempt to create an atmosphere in favour of the Armed Forces Tribunal route.

It is obvious that the issue about the date of birth of Gen Singh is not personal, but has reached this point by systemic influences. These internal and external influences need to be investigated. A conspiracy that seems designed to subvert the Indian army needs to be unravelled.

There are insinuations that politics, political funding, the arms lobby, business mafia and international players are impinging on the course of the crisis. It is quite evident from the bizarre, unprecedented term called ‘succession plan’ that has been given currency by the current dispensation. Will someone please stand up to sort out this mess so that our army can serve our polity better?

(RSN Singh is a former military intelligence officer who later served in the Research & Analysis Wing. The author of two books: Asian Strategic and Military Perspective and Military Factor in Pakistan, he is also a columnist for Canary Trap. This post was first published on Firstpost on January 27, 2012)

eklavya
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby eklavya » 29 Jan 2012 01:54

Katare wrote:Unfaire comments on AK and Anil Chowdhry....

More capital budget, both absolute and % of total, has been spent by AK than any DM in the last decade. So these charges of inactions has been overdone at BRF/media, although a case for more aggressive procurement can be made but that will come at risk of some yahoo pulling another scandal and shutting down entire procurement process.

Showing off military might on republic day by parading missiles, tanks and guns is a Russian led eastern block culture thing that was started to scare off weatern world. It is still practised to extream degree by nut cases like Kim jong il/un of NoKO. There is a good case for slowly mooving away from naked military might show-off to more of a democratic celebration, veterans parade, limited domestic MIC display type formate that dipicts image of a confidant nation.

Although I think armed forces might loose a good and rare opportunity to show off and educate aam janta about its capabilities but that can be done on a separate armed forces day.


The Indian armed forces are an integral part of the consciousness of the modern Indian republic. There is nothing undemocratic about a military parade. No need for angst here.

The Republic Day parade is a very old Indian tradition, and comparisons with North Korea are unwarranted, unacceptable and utterly odious.

Philip
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Posts: 21047
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Philip » 29 Jan 2012 02:56

Deep resentment and a sadistic streak in babudom is why they treat the armed froces as such.A deep rooted fear of one day being turfed out of their comfy existence just as is happening across the border is another reason why the services have to be kept out of almost everything ,posted as far away as possible-on the borders and unleashed only when there is an intruder.The certinous remarks and suggestions to change the nature of the RDay parade is nothing short of blasphemy! What is the whole point of the PM,DM,etc. paying homage at Amar Jawan Jyoti? They might as well send a babu to lay the wreaths!

Anyway,to give babudom a fair chance,I suggets that at the next RDay parade,instead of the marching troops alone,we also have representation from babudom.Floats,(as their fatted,obese lownesses are incapable of marching even a KM!) depicting our gallant pen-pushers hard at work,sitting at their desks,slurping cups of tea,snoring in their seats ,counting out their "profits",surrounded by piles of cobwebbed files tied with red tape,uniformed peons bowing and scraping at their beck and call,would be a sensational hit with the public! It would also be the first time ever that civil servants have been so honoured by any nation.Another first for India,Jai Hind!

eklavya
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby eklavya » 29 Jan 2012 03:06

^^^^^

Good one, Philip sir. Made me laugh ... :lol:


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