PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby amit » 27 Jan 2012 15:18

Singha wrote:the bottom 20% of chinese workers would be doing far more hazardous work like coal mining, recycling the waste of the industrial world by hand in semi-legal industries that take apart and melt the waste for use in other products, working in plants that produce cheap stuff for domestic and third world markets (like some of the cheaper toys we get here in india but would be rejected by G8 countries) etc etc.


Correct. Perhaps Wrdos or perhaps Zlin, if he's human, could educate us on what's the meaning of this word: Guolaosi?

The word is obviously important since 600,000 Chinese citizens die every year from whatever the word means.

Incidentally this is another area, along with HSR, construction, steel production, you name it - where China beats India hands down.
Last edited by amit on 27 Jan 2012 15:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby amit » 27 Jan 2012 15:24

OK for those interested in the meaning of Guolaosi, please see here and here

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby wong » 28 Jan 2012 00:43

wrdos, there is no way you are going to get through to them. Only 7% of Indians even have internet, the rest are Indian-Americans who return twice a year to feel superior. Of course they think India is a worker's paradise compared to China. I guarantee you no one in Alang breaking down a rotting, rusting oil tanker with their bare hands is posting here.

wrdos wrote:amit-ji.

- NY Times, "Those Foxconn factory workers' working and living conditions are not acceptable".
- sha, "Their salary starts from 200$ and 450$ is something around the average".

Everything is true, the NY Times and our friend sha were both telling the truth. Sure the workers earn at least 200$ and by hard and overtime working, many if not most of them can make it to more than 450$ per month. By American standard and especially for the NY Times reporter, sure the salary and the living condition is not acceptable.

However, as a Chinese commenter, I am really surprised by the attitude of some of our Indian friends here. Pls remember, the Foxconn workers' social status are just at the lower end of urban Chinese society, maybe the lowest 20% or something in the city. They are immigrant workers without college education, teenagers or in their early twenties. And most of them are girls.

Here is India, not New York, Sir. Please open your door to walk around your city to see the real life of the lower 20% of the Indian urban society. To see what kind of jobs (if you can call it a job) those recent immigrants from countryside are doing on the streets or behind the streets.

Then tell us why India should refuse investment of Foxconn because their factory workers earns too low in China, by the American standard.

The problem is, China wants to become the next America/Japan, so the country is trying to repeat what America/Japan had done BEFORE they become rich. However, for my opinion, India is trying and want to repeat what the America is doing AFTER they become rich.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby Theo_Fidel » 28 Jan 2012 01:56

The bottom 20% of Chinese are the destitute class. No speakee inglis. Living in hidden slums in forgotten cities. They would be arrested for panhandling.

There are only about 80-100 million factory jobs in China which has 800 million working age population. So the vast majority toil away in some brutal little hell hole, just like India.

Other than the big East coast cities, hand full of interior cities, Shanghai, Pearl Delta and Beijing not much has changed on the ground in the rest of China and for the rest of Chinese. Once you get off the gleaming highway to nowhere, it is mud roads all the way to the next highway 300 miles away.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby svinayak » 28 Jan 2012 01:59

90% of the Chinese population have no representation. There is no free press and there is no voice for them.

An now they talk about workers rights and freedom

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby ldev » 28 Jan 2012 02:35

China is fundamentally a stronger economy than India today, notwithstanding all of the downsides in terms of individual worker rights. It has a current account surplus, it is a net creditor country and is taking steps in developing the offshore yuan bond market...a prelude to making the yuan fully convertible. Its overinvestment in fixed assets has had the beneficial impact of greatly increasing the output-capacity gap, with a downside that large amounts of capital are locked into those fixed assets. While it is true that a major recession in its main export markets will impact China (primarily in terms of the fixed asset investment mentioned earlier), the transition of China from an export/investment led economy to a more balanced consumption/investment led economy will ultimately happen once the yuan becomes fully convertible. That will finally give the CCP the confidence to push for that transition. By my estimate that transition is about 5 years away. One can monitor its progress by watching the progress of the offshore yuan bond market in Hong Kong.

The single most important lesson India can learn from this is how to balance its current account, especially in these very turbulent economic times. That is what gives China its cushion and the lack of it gives India the jitters i.e. the exchange rate of the rupee over the last 3 months.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby saumitra_j » 28 Jan 2012 03:39

Meanwhile, more on manufacturing iPad in China

Read it all to understand one of the reasons why Unkil and China (read CPC) are hand in glove with each other!

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby svinayak » 28 Jan 2012 03:56

saumitra_j wrote:
Read it all to understand one of the reasons why Unkil and China (read CPC) are hand in glove with each other!

Here we have US govt supporting China manufacturing and China trade.
And people wonder why PRC economy is more robust than India.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby ldev » 28 Jan 2012 04:07

^^You cannnot run crying to Unkil or Aunty to solve your problems. Doing all that is necessary INTERNALLY to move to a balanced current account is what is required to ensure that you are not at the mercy of global flow of funds every time there is a global crisis. It is not necessary to become a global export powerhouse to achieve that. But important internal changes such as labour reform, the MINIMUM infrastructure in terms of power, transport, ports is what will improve exports. It is not necessary to assemble Apple products either. The move from a negative 2.5-3.0% current account to one which is roughly in balance is what is required. That does not need Unkil's or Aunty's help but self-help.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby svinayak » 28 Jan 2012 04:11

Are you replying to me.
Who said Uncle or anybody can help India. India has to first start by removing 'socialist' from the constitution first before it can start talking about FDI investment and other structural changes inside India. Indian business have to be empowered.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby ldev » 28 Jan 2012 04:39

Acharya,
Here we have US govt supporting China manufacturing and China trade.
And people wonder why PRC economy is more robust than India.


What exactly does this sentence mean? My understanding is that you are saying that China is stronger than India because of US government help. And my response is that India need not become an export powerhouse but do just enough to balance its current account. Nothing to do with empowering Indian businessman et al. And it does not need Unkil's or Aunty's help as you seem to suggest is what brought about China's rise.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby saumitra_j » 28 Jan 2012 04:59

My intention in posting the link was that while we are saying that workers in China are treated badly, the point is that the so called consumerist society in the US also wants it to happen that way in a perverse sort of way. Apple is sitting on a cash pile of over 96 billion dollars, and guess what, the it is consumers who pay a premium for most of Apple's product which add up to that cash pile (the visible part) as well as the low paid workers of China who produce it cheaply enough for Apple to make good margins!

So in effect, CPC gets to keep its people employed (albeit in terrible conditions), and US corporations get good margins - a win win for both of them. Indian can never work out such a deal and those who talk about why India cannot become a manufacturing hub like China usually do not add this factor in the analysis!

But despite all this, China has built excellent infrastructure and is also sitting on a pile of cash (which India is NOT) and can usefully employ the infrastructure and the cash for the benefit of its people - weather the CPC does that or behaves like Paki general is another matter.

For India which imports 70% of oil, the traffic jams in cities due to lack of infrastructure, subsidy on LPG for people who can afford it, subsidy on Diesel which is typically used by owners of high end cars (and also add NREGA to that list) is wastage of resources at levels far worse than what China does by building infrastructure that nobody uses - at least in China the infrastructure stays but in India, the wastage all goes up in smoke(literally!).

JMT and all that.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby VikramS » 28 Jan 2012 06:15

I just do not understand why the Chinese posters have their collective undies in knots about the Foxconn story.
Further I do not understand why they have to compare that to the urban Indian poor or the ship-breakers in Alang.

Just to educate them:

In India you can broadly classify the industries/organizations into two groups:
-> Organized
-> Unorganized

The organized sector is essentially what you would call a normal company. It will have a well defined set of ownership, will be registered, and once it becomes big enough, will be under the purview of different laws and regulations which control them. Their transactions would have a paper trail; they will have their own business license, business bank accounts, lines of credit etc.They will have regular employee rolls which will not change much, pay their salary on time etc.. Any corporation belongs to the organized sector.

The unorganized sector is what would be called the "underground" economy. It would primarily consist of small scale manufacturing, seasonal business, or family owned/run businesses. Many of these businesses will not even be registered as legal businesses, or be part of the industrial system with its laws and controls. Their ownership is private, and often in very few people; they may not even have a bank account registered in their name. Most of them work on cash basis, or verbal credit guarantees and may not have a legal paper trail.

In the organized Indian sector, it would be next to impossible to have the kind of conditions talked about in the articles about Foxconn. Foxconn India did get into trouble with local unions, and had to adapt their policies to be consistent with local expectations and laws.

sha: just because the police arrests people does not mean they are sent to a Gulag or a concentration camp. What it typically means is that the strikers were physically removed from the area they were protesting, their name/addresses noted in the address record and then they are let go after a few hours. It is typically done to restore order, after protests have been going on for some time, and if there is a chance of violence, or violence getting out of hand. It is a time honored tradition of political protest; very often the assembly, arrest and release are a pre-planned effort often called "jail-bharo" (fill up the jail) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jail_Bharo_Andolan

I do not know what exactly transpired in Foxconn India, but the bottom line is that the plant is working, the productivity of workers is high and attracting attention within Foxconn, and the working conditions are better for the workers than similar plants in PRC.

The whole point of the discussion (and the general discussion on this thread) is to get a better understanding of what happens in China. This particular case made highlighted the difference between the two countries, and how the same multinational company operates with different rules and structures in two different countries. It also highlights the challenges which India faces if it tries to replicate the Chinese model. The simple answer to that question is that India simply can not replicate it because the social, political, cultural environments are completely different.

wong: You have been warned before so dont outlive your welcome. If China was such a paradise, why do they need the censorship? What passes for the internet in China is a farce; another propaganda mechanism with people hired by the government to "guide discussion in the right direction", limit access to not so nice information, and outright ban access to what is not considered promoting harmony. China, after all it is a country where 80-90% people expressed great satisfaction with their government (cant find the link). What does the government fear that it has to employ the great Chinese firewall?

The interesting thing about India is that the problems of the ship-breakers in Alang is first page story not only in India but in the world over. There are organizations actively working on protecting the worker's right, protecting the environment and making the system less harmful. How often would news people and camera men let in similar setups in China? While you live in the US you can pretend that these do not exist. But pretending they do not exist does not make them go away.

In general: It will be best if the Chinese guests do not make it a competition or get their egos all bruised up when some thing not so nice is posted about China. zlin and others post the positive news which I enjoy learning from; the pros and cons go hand in hand.
Last edited by VikramS on 28 Jan 2012 06:35, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby krisna » 28 Jan 2012 06:24

saumitra_j wrote:Meanwhile, more on manufacturing iPad in China

Read it all to understand one of the reasons why Unkil and China (read CPC) are hand in glove with each other!


It is the eeriley similar to looting and slavery which drove the industrial revolution in europe in the previous centuries.
same exploitation of non anglo saxons to their own benefit.

it is incredible how the NYtimes article tries to cover up apple company and its practices. Mahdi does not shine thru this. No wonder I call him the greatest con man of his era.

I shudder to think if any of the non anglo saxon company had become an global icon brand it would have been brought down to bankruptcy by the same anglo saxons under far far less similar circumstances.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby svinayak » 28 Jan 2012 06:38

ldev wrote: And it does not need Unkil's or Aunty's help as you seem to suggest is what brought about China's rise.

PRC a closed communist country in the 60s and early 70s was opened up and thier manufacturing industries upgraded with US companies. Walmart int he 80s built the supply chain and the quality assurances to create the current export trade of merchandise. I meet several companies and people who have built this trade with China over 30 years. I am only stating the facts of the last 40 years. You can intrpret it any way you want.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby zlin » 28 Jan 2012 06:45

Theo_Fidel wrote:The bottom 20% of Chinese are the destitute class. No speakee inglis. Living in hidden slums in forgotten cities. They would be arrested for panhandling.

There are only about 80-100 million factory jobs in China which has 800 million working age population. So the vast majority toil away in some brutal little hell hole, just like India.

Other than the big East coast cities, hand full of interior cities, Shanghai, Pearl Delta and Beijing not much has changed on the ground in the rest of China and for the rest of Chinese. Once you get off the gleaming highway to nowhere, it is mud roads all the way to the next highway 300 miles away.

There are many pictures of hundreds of Chinese cities, and many of them are in the interior, poor area. You can take a look the muddy roads there.
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=763958
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=936134

Three bridge fans travels thousands of miles in the western part of China during their summer vacation last year and showed you how poor the real China is.
http://highestbridges.com/wiki/index.ph ... hoto_Album

And in this digital age, you can basically see every city in China and in the world from Google Earth with high resolution satellite images, and with hundreds or thousands of pictures loaded. Just open your eyes.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby Singha » 28 Jan 2012 07:11

a bunch of nice bridges build by the govt and some nice roads...and govt paid boulevards along the riverbank.

the few individual countryside houses visible in the pix looks no better or worse than the pukka houses in the indian countryside and worse than the ones in kerala villages. the chinese homes need heating hence just like western homes tend to present a more 'flush sealed tfta' look.

the food is the same - onions, chillies, carrots ... :lol:

the bottom 20% is not strolling with a umbrella along the river there or preparing delicious food.
the bottom 20% glimpses is seen here http://www.chinahush.com/2009/10/21/ama ... -in-china/

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby VikramS » 28 Jan 2012 07:44

zlin:

That high bridges link was very nice. Some of the photos are indeed very spectacular. I am sure building on such a massive scale has helped build a lot of expertise within China.

It would be great if you could post links to more such travelogues. This particular one was along a major highway. What about stuff off the beaten path?

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby Theo_Fidel » 28 Jan 2012 08:27

zlin wrote:And in this digital age, you can basically see every city in China and in the world from Google Earth with high resolution satellite images, and with hundreds or thousands of pictures loaded. Just open your eyes.


I have. It is your eyes that are frozen shut. As Singha posted. Panda type trolls refuse to see the real suffering of their compatriots. I have previously posted dozens of pictures on the reality of the common Chinese citizens plight. You are still a poor country, don't mistake your situation for something else. Your overall infrastructure is pathetic compared to the first world. I suspect less than 2% of your infrastructure has been upgraded based on land area. Rest is completely untouched.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/internatio ... 675384.ece

The government said this week it would raise the poverty threshold to 2,300 yuan ($362 or Rs.18,630) as the annual income for farmers — an 80-per cent increase from the 1,274 yuan defined last year. This brings China's poverty line to a little under a dollar a day, and closer to the $1.25 level defined by the World Bank.

Under the earlier definition, China said it had 26.88 million rural poor, a fall of over 70 million during the past decade.

The move to widen the definition — and the segment of the population entitled to a number of subsidies — to 128 million people, or 13.4 per cent of the population, was announced following a national meeting on poverty alleviation held on Tuesday.


Oh yes you have destitute class you refuse to even acknowledge in your foolish arrogance. 300 million or so.

Since you are so enamored of Google earth here are a few to show your real situation. This is how 95% of Panda wonderland looks like. Yup completely untouched. Many areas since the Ming dynasty. :rotfl:

Image

And this is your boastful Panda wonderland image. Really!! Like I said 10 feet of the highway is mud road and destitution. Your images only confirm this for me.

Image

or how about this.

Image

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby krisna » 28 Jan 2012 08:46

^^^^
Images are worth 10000000000's words.
can create powerful perception.

whatever it is between india and china, never mind if dlagon d*ck is bigger,
one crucial factor is reality and ability to face it squarely.
India and its citizens are open about both its riches and poverty. We dont hide it. it is open as a book. we have a rich and diverse culture and at the same time have myraid problems that we are tackling in our own style and pace.
Regarding china many of its posters are shy of talking about its poverty and poor chinese. they are embarrassed that they seek to clothe it as if it will magically disappear.
Why this to salvage some H&D. ridiculous.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby zlin » 28 Jan 2012 09:38

Theo_Fidel wrote:And this is your boastful Panda wonderland image. Really!! Like I said 10 feet of the highway is mud road and destitution. Your images only confirm this for me.

Image


:?: :?: Is anything wrong there in this picture? I see a well-paved, well-lineated local road/bridge there, which is better than 99% of roads/highways in India.
From author's description "Ian looks out from the lower beam bridge which serves the local road alongside the Yangtze River while the high bridge carries a 4-lane expressway to the 3 Gorges Dam. Image by Eric Sakowski / HighestBridges.com" The "high bridge carries a 4-lane expressway" he talks about is the bridge showed above it
Image
So it is a very scenic area around there. The author gave enough details so I can quickly pull this place from google map
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=30.769071,111.260567&spn=0.00342,0.008234&t=h&z=18&lci=com.panoramio.all
Some panoramio pictures show it is a very scenic place with a normal local road/bridge
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/10099836

a pedestrian suspension bridge a little upstream
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/33045224
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/15399555

and a cool bungy jumping bridge
http://static.panoramio.com/photos/orig ... 745913.jpg

and of course the expressway bridge he liked most
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/47160991

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby zlin » 28 Jan 2012 09:55

Theo_Fidel wrote:Since you are so enamored of Google earth here are a few to show your real situation. This is how 95% of Panda wonderland looks like. Yup completely untouched. Many areas since the Ming dynasty. :rotfl:


If there is a Ming dynasty building left untouched(not even completely), even a small shanty, it will be strictly protected to be kept untouched by law in China. Man, that is at least 300 years old! It is also true in most of civilised nations like US. The whole history of US is younger than Ming dynasty. Too bad 99.9% of China cannot find anything left from Ming dynasty, even from later Qing dynasty. We have too many we called fake relics that mimic old Ming dynasty buildings. Man I have no idea where you dig out so many "completely untouched. Many areas since the Ming dynasty." :roll:

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby Gus » 28 Jan 2012 10:07

zlin wrote: :?: :?: Is anything wrong there in this picture? I see a well-paved, well-lineated local road/bridge there, which is better than 99% of roads/highways in India.


Oye...he is referring to below the bridge...but I guess you are too conditioned to talk up that you don't see 'bad stuff'...

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby zlin » 28 Jan 2012 10:28

Theo_Fidel wrote:or how about this.
Image


Zhongxian (or translated directly as Zhong County, in Chinese 忠县) is just a mediocre, a very very normal looking county level city/town in western China. There are over 1600 counties in China and Zhongxian is definitely not at the top. If it is counted as a city, it is very small, if counted as a county town, it is middle, maybe middle-large. It is so mediocre that wikipedia just gives one line description in English.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhongxian

Google map of ZhongXian city/town
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Zhongxian ... oramio.all

However, judging from the picture, it has a better looking that most of well-know Indian big cities. I am not even talking about slums.
Yes, there are some run-down/abandoned old buildings here or there, it is always like that everywhere in this world, including New York City, London and Paris. Let alone Mumbai, or Delhi.

Zhongxian pictures from that travelogue
Image
We finally made it to the Yangtze River city of Zhongxian where our hotel room gave us a peek at the Zhongxian suspension bridge completed in 2001 with a main span of 460 meters. Image by Eric Sakowski / HighestBridges.com

Image
A view of some Zhongxian City apartment buildings from our "4 star" hotel. The Zhongxian hotel was one of just 2 "fancy" hotels we stayed at on the entire 3 week trip. The other one was in Liupanshui City. Image by Eric Sakowski / HighestBridges.com

Image
A city creek that leads into the Yangtze had some interesting walkways for the locals to reach their riverfront apartments. Image by Eric Sakowski / HighestBridges.com


Actually, I like that pedestrain bridge in the last picture a lot. It must be so cool to walk on it to watch the might Yangtse River and all the big mountains/gorges around it. BTW, I feel pity that those old houses along the creek in picture are abandoned and being demolished. We are just not rich enough to keep all the historic old buildings currently.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby zlin » 28 Jan 2012 10:41

Gus wrote:
zlin wrote: :?: :?: Is anything wrong there in this picture? I see a well-paved, well-lineated local road/bridge there, which is better than 99% of roads/highways in India.


Oye...he is referring to below the bridge...but I guess you are too conditioned to talk up that you don't see 'bad stuff'...


Below that bridge is a deep cliff (very scenic), and some construction around there. Too bad, as the author mentioned, "Like so many Chinese towns, there is always construction going on." 8)

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby Dhiman » 28 Jan 2012 10:44

zlin wrote:Actually, I like that pedestrain bridge in the last picture a lot. It must be so cool to walk on it to watch the might Yangtse River and all the big mountains/gorges around it. BTW, I feel pity that those old houses along the creek in picture are abandoned and being demolished. We are just not rich enough to keep all the historic old buildings currently.


May I suggest gathering a few people and holding a hunger strike or road blockage in front of local CCP office to prevent destruction of those "Ming Dynasty" buildings :rotfl:

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby Dhiman » 28 Jan 2012 11:05

Image

LOL, total sacrilege, how can this be: around same percentage of people living in Ming dynasty luxury in both India and China.

No way, this is a LIE. A conspiracy by jealous western powers to show China in bad light. In any case all these Chinese slums are marked for destruction to make way for HSR tracks. :mrgreen:

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby zlin » 28 Jan 2012 11:44

Dhiman wrote:
zlin wrote:Actually, I like that pedestrain bridge in the last picture a lot. It must be so cool to walk on it to watch the might Yangtse River and all the big mountains/gorges around it. BTW, I feel pity that those old houses along the creek in picture are abandoned and being demolished. We are just not rich enough to keep all the historic old buildings currently.


May I suggest gathering a few people and holding a hunger strike or road blockage in front of local CCP office to prevent destruction of those "Ming Dynasty" buildings :rotfl:


Well, it is happening very often in China nowadays. One example is the redevelopment of southern part of Nanjing city. This happened decade years ago. The local government want to develop new/modern houses for that area (it is a old part of Nanjing) by demolishing "historic" houses there, which barely having 100 years age.However, many intellectuals (not the majority of local residents) against that move arguing to keep the history of Nanjing. The arguement went up to the Premier Wen and he personally stopped the revelopment and demolishment stopped in the middle and that area just left in ruins for years now and local government still hasn't figured out how to do. If there is any Ming dynasty buildings, there would be no arguement for sure. Absolutely "untouchable"! And local government dare not to demolish them nowadays.

google map of that area
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=32.01563 ... oramio.all

Same thing happens in many historic cities/towns in China, like Beijing (Hutong area), Suzhou, Guangzhou, Chengdu, Tianjin.

It is relatively easier for small historic towns in rich area. The whole old part of town is kept "untouchable" and becomes famous tourism places. Like famous "Zhouzhuang old town" in Suzhou
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=31.11861 ... oramio.all
or "Qibao old town" in Shanghai
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Qibaozhen ... oramio.all

Of course, you may think that as a "slum" in China lol

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby VikramS » 28 Jan 2012 14:09

zlin:
Thanks for the pictures and the site with photos linked to Google Maps. I explored quite a few places.

To the rest: I think all this discussion and finger pointing about mud-roads and old homes etc. is kind of pointless. When the second largest economy spends 40% on fixed investments (infrastructure), it will show in those major roads and highways. While I do not disagree that there are likely going to be a huge number of Chinese who are still poor, pointing fingers at them does not in any way diminishes similar problems in India.

It would best if keep our focus on understanding the pros and cons of the Chinese system, instead of getting into a finger pointing match. There is a lot to learn from the Chinese experience; both in terms of what can be emulated and what has to be avoided.

sha
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby sha » 28 Jan 2012 18:38

amit wrote:]Even a guy who drives the famous Indian mode of transport, the autorickshaw (a three wheeler similar to the famous Tuk Tuks that you may be aware of) make far more money than the figures which Sha mentioned for unskilled/semi-skilled Foxconn India workers (average). And an autorickshaw driver is considered in the bottom 20 per cent of Indian urban society.

I googled the website and got this.
<Report criticises Nokia, Flextronics, Salcomp & Foxconn>
http://evertiq.com/news/20414
September 15 2011
...
Foxconn’s wage settlement with the union raised permanent workers'wages by 75-80%, to Rs. 9,100 (145 euros) per month for those with three or four years of work experience.

Contract workers and trainees are paid in general less than permanent workers and are exempted from wage rises. ... Flextronics paid them Rs. 4,130-5,500 (66-88 euros), Salcomp Rs. 4,200 (67 euros) and Foxconn Rs. 5,000 (80 euros) per month.


VikramS wrote:sha: just because the police arrests people does not mean they are sent to a Gulag or a concentration camp. What it typically means is that the strikers were physically removed from the area they were protesting, their name/addresses noted in the address record and then they are let go after a few hours. It is typically done to restore order, after protests have been going on for some time, and if there is a chance of violence, or violence getting out of hand. It is a time honored tradition of political protest; very often the assembly, arrest and release are a pre-planned effort often called "jail-bharo" (fill up the jail)

Thanks for the lecture. Read below or go check the link above.
Three hundred Foxconn workers were arrested and imprisoned during the strike. A few workers remain suspended. At the time of writing, Foxconn held 'hearings' with suspended workers individually on the company's premises. Workers were not allowed to bring a lawyer, a co-worker or any other representative in support.

More lecture on democratic India, please.

VikramS wrote:I do not know what exactly transpired in Foxconn India, but the bottom line is that the plant is working, the productivity of workers is high and attracting attention within Foxconn, and the working conditions are better for the workers than similar plants in PRC.

The whole point of the discussion (and the general discussion on this thread) is to get a better understanding of what happens in China. This particular case made highlighted the difference between the two countries, and how the same multinational company operates with different rules and structures in two different countries.

1.The productivity of workers is high ;
2.The workers are less than half payed comprared to their "exploited" peers in China;
3.You guys paint a rosy picture of Foxconn in great democratic India.
You got your point!

Another news based on the same report.
http://causebecause.com/news-detail.php?NewsID=424
while Foxconn employs nearly 6,000 people in its two locations. The report’s damning observation: ‘In sum, most workers of the studied companies were employed in precarious positions and earn very low salaries even in the Indian context.’

One of the points made by the report is that most of the workers who were on the direct payroll of Nokia, Salcomp, and Foxconn started as ‘trainees’ and were kept in this status for 15 months or more, even though their training lasted only for a month.
Last edited by sha on 28 Jan 2012 19:07, edited 2 times in total.

Christopher Sidor
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby Christopher Sidor » 28 Jan 2012 18:38

After going through all the posts regarding how good Chinese infrastructure is and the iPhone revelations. One is thunderstruck. In spite of all the fantastic infrastructure, Chinese companies and Chinese workers get so much less value for their hard work. Just compare where the maximum value add and profits are getting extracted with the amount which China spends on infrastructure.

I am not saying that IPAD/IPhone story is the norm for every other product which comes out of china. Maybe it is an aberration. But maybe it is not.

Singha
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby Singha » 28 Jan 2012 19:20

ipad/ipod is a extreme example because of the very high demand in volume and time pressure. but I doubt foxconn and such cos have any better practices for other clients. they will crack the whip viciously when they have to...and police/local party bosses are well 'fed' and will line up behind factory owners.

sha
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby sha » 28 Jan 2012 19:46

Please read the India guys's talks above and the article below.

Beware the 'gush-up gospel' enriching India's billionaires
http://www.ftchinese.com/story/001042846/en
2012-01-28
Since the cross-ownership of businesses is not restricted by the “gush-up gospel” rules, the more you have, the more you can have. Meanwhile, scandal after scandal has exposed, in painful detail, how corporations buy politicians, judges, bureaucrats and media houses, hollowing out democracy, retaining only its rituals. Huge reserves of bauxite, iron ore, oil and natural gas worth trillions of dollars were sold to corporations for a pittance, defying even the twisted logic of the free market. Cartels of corrupt politicians and corporations have colluded to underestimate the quantity of reserves, and the actual market value of public assets, leading to the siphoning off of billions of dollars of public money. Then there’s the land grab – the forced displacement of communities, of millions of people whose lands are being appropriated by the state and handed to private enterprise. (The concept of inviolability of private property rarely applies to the property of the poor.) Mass revolts have broken out, many of them armed. The government has indicated that it will deploy the army to quell them.
...
After two decades of these “reforms” and of phenomenal but jobless growth, India has more malnourished children than anywhere else in the world, and more poor people in eight of its states than 26 countries of sub-Saharan Africa put together. And now the international financial crisis is closing in. The growth rate has plummeted to 6.9 per cent. Foreign investment is pulling out.

Theo_Fidel

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby Theo_Fidel » 28 Jan 2012 20:38

The question is how Panda wonderland covers up its poverty. Note that there is hardly any traffic on these bling bling bridges. The people can not afford to use them. They continue to use the local side roads. In which investment is zero. The Panda wonderland style is to create bling that distracts the casual observer from the brutality common Chinese endure. Their living circumstance and treatment has changed little since the Ming dynasty.

Note that this is from a link the Panda twits posted in glory of their mother land. The really poor areas are not shown here and are truly horrendous. But it is never mentioned in all the glowing media accounts. Shows how little Panda has changed.

Image

Image

Image

Theo_Fidel

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby Theo_Fidel » 28 Jan 2012 20:46

Next to all those fancy empty bridges this is how the locals really transport their goods. Where should this confiscated money be going? Panda is building stuff it local population mostly can not use. Just bling.

Image

Theo_Fidel

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby Theo_Fidel » 28 Jan 2012 20:59

This is what their real trains are like. Away from all the bling bling HSR's.

Image
Image
Image From elsewhere.

You scratch the surface and this is how the interior of those fancy brides looks. All rotten.

Image

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby member_20810 » 28 Jan 2012 21:03

"Please read the India guys's talks above and the article below"


sha, have you tired to check the "facts" in that article. Per world bank estimate 41.6% of the total Indian population falls below the international poverty line of US$ 1.25 a day ( not 800 million with less than 0.50 cents per day) and per UN Millennium Development Goals Report, India's poverty rate is projected to drop to 22% in 2015. ( A sure effect of gush up gospel).

I can link the sources but since you have the freedom to surf the web and read all about India, i hope you will not disappoint.

Theo_Fidel

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby Theo_Fidel » 28 Jan 2012 21:53

I can't take it anymore. I have been trying to refrain from commenting on the quality of the construction I see, esp. for what is 8.0 type earthquake country. But these bridges and the quality of construction and maintenance will simply not cut it. Not if the intention is to survive the next 8.0 earthquake. The whole lot of them will come down like a pack of cards in the next earthquake.

This is what happened in the Wenchuan Earthquake 2008.

Image

Note several things. The span that collapsed was the very first one. Meaning on the Abutment. I'll come back to that. Second the entire span collapsed.
Third the second rigid span with a thin wall peir has suffered de-lamination and compressive shocks.

What this means is that the rigid bridge frame crashed into the abutment when the S-waves arrived. The solution for this problem has been known for 100+ years. From the Golden gate bridge on. Build the abutment connection with the highest quality materials and design and test the connection using some form of Seismic isolation bearing on an earthquake table. Pin connections are out and definitely no lubricated pads either. You want elastic bearing systems that return the abutment back to neutral position rather than plastic connections that permanently dislocate.

No this is not easy design. It takes time, care and often year upon year of testing and is in many ways an art, to get the connections and the bridge pier designs to work with each other in large earthquakes. Small tweaks are made to adjust the frequency of vibration, direction of movement, type of connection, correct tension of members, pre-stress vs post stress, etc. Often a carefully built scale model is tested for years in an earthquake lab to ensure all the connections can survive earthquake country. When you hear that a bridge in California took 10 years to build and cost twice what a similar bridge in Texas cost, this is big part of the reason why. This is also why almost no bridges in earthquake country look boilerplate. They are always custom solutions to that particular gorge. No two look any thing remotely similar.

Now I don't know exactly how these were designed but other than structure selection, thin wall piers (expensive form work) work better than cylindrical piers (cheap), very little testing and careful customization is visible in the design of these bridges. The fact that they were thrown up in a matter of years makes one even more suspicious that relatively little effort went into testing and design optimization for lateral loads. The quality of the concrete in particular is quite atrocious. Take a look at this image. It looks like regular strength pavement concrete (3600 psi) has been poured vs high strength concrete (12,000 psi), with very little batch control and shoddy compaction and formwork in great haste. The movement gap looks minimal for what is 8.0 earthquake country where 2-3 foot movement is normal.

Image

Now I normally don't criticize earthquake design that others do but it appears these were put put up in great haste with minimal testing. Habitations are present beneath just about every one of these bridges as well. Their potential collapse puts the lives of great numbers of people at unnecessary and pointless risk.

Especially when so much is known and patient careful design and construction could avoid so much blood shed.

zlin
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby zlin » 28 Jan 2012 23:09

Theo_Fidel wrote:I can't take it anymore. I have been trying to refrain from commenting on the quality of the construction I see, esp. for what is 8.0 type earthquake country. But these bridges and the quality of construction and maintenance will simply not cut it. Not if the intention is to survive the next 8.0 earthquake. The whole lot of them will come down like a pack of cards in the next earthquake.

This is what happened in the Wenchuan Earthquake 2008.

Image

Note several things. The span that collapsed was the very first one. Meaning on the Abutment. I'll come back to that. Second the entire span collapsed.
Third the second rigid span with a thin wall peir has suffered de-lamination and compressive shocks.

What this means is that the rigid bridge frame crashed into the abutment when the S-waves arrived. The solution for this problem has been known for 100+ years. From the Golden gate bridge on. Build the abutment connection with the highest quality materials and design and test the connection using some form of Seismic isolation bearing on an earthquake table. Pin connections are out and definitely no lubricated pads either. You want elastic bearing systems that return the abutment back to neutral position rather than plastic connections that permanently dislocate.



Man, you are so desperate to defame China, you don't know what you are talking about. Wenchuan earthquake 2008 is one of biggest in human history (Wenchuan Earthquake in wiki). That bridge, which was still under construction during 2008 earthquake, counted to your wish, proved to survive a 8.0 earthquake. Only a piece of surface fell off and whole bridge was intact after a big shake.
the bridge still stands after 8.0 earthquke
Image

Please notice that underconstructed bridge and that expressway are located right in the center of most hit area of the earthquake. In the middle of red area, very close to the epicenter.
Image

Just after one year in May 2009, after reparing, rebar the bridge and expressway opened to traffic. That is a wonder of engineering

The quality of Chinese construction is superior in the world. Just look what happened after big earthquake in some top nations.

This is the collapsed elevated bridge in 7.3 magnitude Kobe port earthquake 1995 in Japan
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This is the collapsed bridge during 6.9 magnitude Loma Prieta earthquake, bay area, california
Image
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This earquake was much smaller than Wenchuan one
Image

The irony is the almighty US couldn't rebuild the bridge until >20 years later after China supplied the pre-built bridge. US has full confidence in "made in China" bridges. :rotfl:
Bridge Comes to San Francisco With a Made-in-China Label 8) 8)

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby svinayak » 29 Jan 2012 01:29

zlin wrote:
Man, you are so desperate to defame China, you don't know what you are talking about.

But this forum is meant for that


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