Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Jan 2012 07:51

I think IA is yet to decide what to do with prahaar and how it should be used - as a special brahmos type weapon in the artillery divs or as a mass produced corps level weapon.

brf would ofcourse strongly support the latter option.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Jan 2012 09:17

GD I think its an IA Cold Start weapon. Think of how the ATACM is integrated into US Army. Prithvi is like ATACM. However due to lack of variety, Prithvi was also allocated for special payloads. Hnece lost its ATACM role.

Now Prahaar in multiple barrel launcher gives the same impact however with flexibility. So it will be integrated.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 27 Jan 2012 09:55

Singha wrote:I think IA is yet to decide what to do with prahaar and how it should be used - as a special brahmos type weapon in the artillery divs or as a mass produced corps level weapon.

brf would ofcourse strongly support the latter option.

Would'nt Prahar be as a "replacement" for Prithvi ? It may be easier to handle, being a solid fuel rocket ?

K

vic · Post by **vic** » 27 Jan 2012 10:03

I think Brahmos is around Rs 10 crore per round while Prahaar might be around (guess) Rs 1 crore per round. So it may have more widespread use and utility.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 27 Jan 2012 10:12

Kersi D wrote:
Singha wrote:I think IA is yet to decide what to do with prahaar and how it should be used - as a special brahmos type weapon in the artillery divs or as a mass produced corps level weapon.

brf would ofcourse strongly support the latter option.
Would'nt Prahar be as a "replacement" for Prithvi ? It may be easier to handle, being a solid fuel rocket ?

K

I think the Prahaar will replace the prithvi ss150, which is not a quick start missile. SS150 is a single stage and liquid propellant missile whereas the Prahaar has a manouvreable last stage and multiples can be fired like the Pinaka/Smerch. It enhances "Cold Start".

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 27 Jan 2012 10:23

vic wrote:I think Brahmos is around Rs 10 crore per round while Prahaar might be around (guess) Rs 1 crore per round. So it may have more widespread use and utility.

The 10 crores is for Initial missiles due cost of Infrastructure, radars launchers etc, follow on orders for missile reloads will be cheaper

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 27 Jan 2012 10:23

Nihat wrote:Since we have so far rejected all second rate stuff from the US, I see no reason why we'll go ahead and collaborate in a program of such high priority as the missile shield.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Jan 2012 10:26

hope prahaar with proper tube launchers starts delivery by next republic day , with 1st units being the new mountain formations.

they will need further tests to prove the launch tube and salvo concepts as the 1st test was from metal truss exposed framework.

but to be realistic this is 4 years away from induction for sure - first complete tests, then IA allocates funding and earmarks units, training, productionizing in BDL, teething issues, user trials...a long way from a handmade prototype to a rugged field weapon plugged in IACCS.

Badar · Post by **Badar** » 27 Jan 2012 10:32

How geared up are we IRSTA wise to generate strikes orders for massed Prahaars?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Jan 2012 10:36

first let us get the massed prahaar batteries....6-8 yrs away minimum.

Badar · Post by **Badar** » 27 Jan 2012 10:40

What I was hinting at was that the intended role in the IA could be gleaned at where the long range (IA context) IRSTA assets are being concentrated.

Never mind, it will be all clear like you said in a few years.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 27 Jan 2012 11:20

Prahaar is most likely to the Arty Divisions with each of the commands (3+1 raising). Expect Prahaar and Brahmos to form part of a composite Missile Bde with these arty divisions. As for Arty bdes with Divisions, well, we first need to put in a battery at least of Pinaka with each division.

nash · Post by **nash** » 27 Jan 2012 12:05

For Strategic and high value target we can use Brahmos and for other purpose we can use prahaar abundantly, i am assuming prahaar will be much cheaper than brahmos.

koti · Post by **koti** » 27 Jan 2012 12:30

vic wrote:I think Brahmos is around Rs 10 crore per round while Prahaar might be around (guess) Rs 1 crore per round. So it may have more widespread use and utility.

Each Krasnopol is rumored to cost around 40K$

, Keeping that in mind even a cost of 1 crore per Prahaar seems justifiable.

koti · Post by **koti** » 27 Jan 2012 12:35

Badar wrote:How geared up are we IRSTA wise to generate strikes orders for massed Prahaars?

We were quick to absorb Smerch. If we look it this from that perspective, we shouldn't take a much longer time frame.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 27 Jan 2012 12:50

DRDO should and plan and act fast with Prahaar. Since range is <300 km, this wont be curtailed by MTCR, though we are not a signatory. Their commercial wing should demo the missile to friends in Asia and Africa.

The production setup could be amortized based on the total order for our armed forces and the import numbers. If IA wants to test the missile in various configurations and parameters before placing an order, they could take their time. There will be continuous improvements made and exports would bring in the money for further research.

Once an order is placed (5-8 years), supply to armed forced must take precedence. It would be a matter of just ramping up. Hopefully by then local supply chain will also be in place.

koti · Post by **koti** » 27 Jan 2012 13:23

Yes.
More then bringing in money they can reduce the per unit price of the missile( Economies of scale).

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 27 Jan 2012 18:26

which Army's requirement is more than that of Indian Army. Local requirement itself is huge.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 28 Jan 2012 04:35

Singha wrote:hope prahaar with proper tube launchers starts delivery by next republic day , with 1st units being the new mountain formations.

they will need further tests to prove the launch tube and salvo concepts as the 1st test was from metal truss exposed framework.

but to be realistic this is 4 years away from induction for sure - first complete tests, then IA allocates funding and earmarks units, training, productionizing in BDL, teething issues, user trials...a long way from a handmade prototype to a rugged field weapon plugged in IACCS.

Not sure Sir. See, the IA has to do the following for any indigenous system:

a) Hot trials in Rajasthan
b) Cold trials in Rajasthan
c) Hot trials in Leh
d) Cold trials in Leh
e) Hot trials in the plains
f) Cold trials in the plains
g) Prepare the doctrine for its induction
h) Exhort Vivek to incorporate Prahaar into his scenario
i) Train the end user
j) DRDO assisted user trials
k) DRDO-unassisted user trials
l) Complain about the TEL and ask for it to be re-designed
m) Repeat (a) through (f)

All of the above can of course be done only sequentially since we have no control over the seasons.

n) Finally, the IA will order 10 launchers --> we will have a big lungi dance moment in BRF and fantasize about 100 batteries of Prahaar wreaking havoc on the Chinese
o) Jingos will visit the scenarios thread to see if Vivek has responded to their request made in step (h)

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Jan 2012 05:59

we will have a big lungi dance moment in BRF

More like our grand kids will. IF BR is still there.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Jan 2012 06:48

I was told some time ago that Brahmos came in at 2.5cr per round.If so,then it did not include dev. costs.Prahaar will come in cheaper and in its multiple launcher system,will have a far smaller battlefield footprint than Prithvi,aiding cooncealment and making it a weapon of chocie replacing both Prithvi and Brahmos,which could be used with more discretion,targetwise.

Reg. seeker tech,and our need for a "3rd partner" in the JV,AWST recently said that israel was alarmed at the latest Russian SAMs supplied to Syria,giving it much angst.Missiles like Pantsyr SA-22,Buk M2 SA-17 could give the Syrians an "edge" over Israel's air force.The situ was similar to that in '73 and the Yom Kippur War,where Soviet SA-6s surprised the Iasraelis.Israel lost over "100 fighters" mostly to Soviet air defence systems.Israel has thus far successfully blocked Russian deliveries of S-300s to Syria.The features of the "Panstsyr's 1L36-01Roman I-band radar" represents a "serious challenge".Israel however is confident of finding EW solutions to these challenges and the aarticle gos on to say that israel "never" exports its "state-of -art" eqpt. to customers,which is why we need a "3rd party" for our seeker plant.

Incidentally,Syria has recd. two "Bastion" Yakhont missile systems and 72 Yakhont missiles.Each Bastion comprising 18 mobile launchers,with each carrying two missiles.These psoe a serious threat to the Israeli Navy and "will definitely change the way we sail",according to a senior IsN officer.IN the war with the Hiz in lebanon,an Israeli Saar-5 missile corvette was seriously damaged by a Chinese /Iranian C-802 anti-ship missile.

In another article in the same issue (16/1/12) devoted to EW,David Fungham writes how future battlefield scenarios will have less troops on the ground and more heavily armoured vehicles and robotic ground vehicles,air-borne stand-off weapons, due to a battlefield filled with remotely detonated explosive devices,advanced anti-tank weapons and new anti-air weapons like the Russian SA-18/24 MANPADs and SA-20 with its AESA LR radar.It envisons the emeregnce of "non-kinetic" EW warfare weapons,sinc these and other directed energy weapons do not require ammo production,warehousing,and transport to the battlefield as conventional weapons do.Israel discovered in 2006 against the Hiz,how "Iranian SIGINT intel revealed Israeli assembly areas and lured vehicles into killing zones where advanced Russian weapons destroyed the heaviest armour and a void appeared in Israel's response to the Hiz's use of easily deployed arty. rockets".

sum · Post by **sum** » 28 Jan 2012 09:32

Not sure Sir. See, the IA has to do the following for any indigenous system:

a) Hot trials in Rajasthan
b) Cold trials in Rajasthan
........
g) Prepare the doctrine for its induction
h) Exhort Vivek to incorporate Prahaar into his scenario
i) Train the end user
j) DRDO assisted user trials
k) DRDO-unassisted user trials
l) Complain about the TEL and ask for it to be re-designed
m) Repeat (a) through (f)

All of the above can of course be done only sequentially since we have no control over the seasons.

n) Finally, the IA will order 10 launchers --> we will have a big lungi dance moment in BRF and fantasize about 100 batteries of Prahaar wreaking havoc on the Chinese
o) Jingos will visit the scenarios thread to see if Vivek has responded to their request made in step (h)

Desperately need a coffee spill alert for sch posts!!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Jan 2012 09:57

p) And Mr Clean will cancel those 10 launchers in step n) citing some arcane transgression.

Rupesh · Post by **Rupesh** » 28 Jan 2012 10:06

Brahmos costs Approx $3 mil a pop.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 28 Jan 2012 10:39

Rupesh wrote:Brahmos costs Approx $3 mil a pop.

I see this cost being reported but searched google, but it seems the actual value of orders in INR and no of Missiles being acquired is not disclosed.

This is what I could find
Army inducts new regiment of BrahMos

In 2007, the Army had first inducted a regiment of BrahMos-I, which consists of 67 missiles, five mobile autonomous launchers on 12x12 Tatra vehicles and two mobile command posts, among other equipment.

The regiment handed over to the 1.13-million-strong force on Wednesday consists of the Block-II version of the missiles developed to hit a specific small target with a low radar cross-section in a cluttered environment. The Block-III version, which will be the next to be inducted, has "steep dive capability" to take out targets hidden behind a mountain range.

Having already placed orders worth Rs 9,484 crore, the Army is looking to induct all three versions of the multi-role BrahMos in sufficient numbers over the next couple of years. Navy and IAF have ordered BrahMos missiles worth Rs 3,568 crore and Rs 1,295 crore, respectively.

if we could have the numbers against these orders it would be useful.

Brahmos Missile

IN Ships with Vertical Launched Brahmos

Besides INS Ranvir and INS Ranvijay, vertical launched version of Brahmos will be fitted on:

1. INS Ranvir and INS Ranvijay.

2. Three Kolkata-class P-15A ships being built at Mazagon Docks in Mumbai at a cost of Rs 11,662 crore.

3. Modified Krivak III (Project 11356) / Talwar Class frigates (Batch 2) currently under construction at the Yantar Shipyards in Kaliningrad, Russia. The vertical launch system has already been installed on the first of these frigates that was floated in November, 2009. A missile will be test fired using the system in September, 2010.

4. Future Talwar class Batch 3 frigates. (These maybe built either in Russia or India.)

5. Future Project 15B destroyers.

Army Orders

The Indian Army ordered 134 mobile anti-ship land-based BrahMos Block I missiles in 2006-2009 and another 240 land-attack BrahMos Block II missiles with a discriminating seeker in 2010, for a total of about $3 billion.

As in September 2011, the army had one regiment (861) of Brahmos Block 1 missile, and two regiments (862, 863) of BrahMos Block II missiles.

As on December 2, 2010 the Army had one regiment (861) of the BrahMos Block I variant, consisting of 67 missiles, five mobile autonomous launchers on 12x12 Tatra vehicles and two mobile command posts, among other equipment.

A BrahMos cruise missile regiment comprises between 4-6 batteries of 3-4 mobile launcher and and two mobile control centers. Each missile launcher is equipped with three missiles.

Each regiment appears to have a 100% missile reserve.

I had thought the Land based anti-ship missiles are with the Navy, here it suggests that the Army has 134 of such missiles, is that correct.

It was the 25th test of the Brahmos missile and the third test of its Block-III variant.

Combining the quotes one gets that the Army first 4 missile regiments have been ordered for INR 9484 crore by November 2011, this includes Launchers, refurbishment vehicles, Radar, Development costs etc. plus 536 missiles. Dont Know how many missiles navy has bought for 3568 crore and IAF for 1295 crore.

P.S=> If India and Russia want to market this missile they will not want to say its real price but charge as much as possible.

To add more confusion

PJ-10 BrahMos

Both Army and Navy are inducting the BrahMos Block-I missiles. While Army had ordered two BrahMos regiments in the first phase at a cost of Rs 8,352 crore, with 134 missiles, 10 road-mobile autonomous launchers on 12�12 Tatra vehicles and four mobile command posts, the Navy had ordered 49 BrahMos firing units at a cost of Rs 711 crore. As of early 2008 DRDO officials claimed that BrahMos would be able to start deliveries of the 240 missiles ordered by the Army in two years as per the original schedule. The Army had already inducted one regiment of the Block I version of the missile.

vic · Post by **vic** » 28 Jan 2012 17:27

It must be compared with Sub launched exocet missile which we bought for US$ 6 million a pop and harpoons for US$ 6 to 10 million a pop

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 28 Jan 2012 23:43

Singha wrote:first let us get the massed prahaar batteries....6-8 yrs away minimum.

I am more optimistic. I have seen that any equipment/system appearing in Republic Day parade is generally in use with the armed forces. Exception - DRDO floats.

K

srai · Post by **srai** » 29 Jan 2012 02:39

Aditya_V wrote:...
This is what I could find
Army inducts new regiment of BrahMos

...

Having already placed orders worth Rs 9,484 crore, the Army is looking to induct all three versions of the multi-role BrahMos in sufficient numbers over the next couple of years. Navy and IAF have ordered BrahMos missiles worth Rs 3,568 crore and Rs 1,295 crore, respectively.
if we could have the numbers against these orders it would be useful.
...

Brahmos Missile

...
Army Orders

The Indian Army ordered 134 mobile anti-ship land-based BrahMos Block I missiles in 2006-2009 and another 240 land-attack BrahMos Block II missiles with a discriminating seeker in 2010, for a total of about $3 billion.

As in September 2011, the army had one regiment (861) of Brahmos Block 1 missile, and two regiments (862, 863) of BrahMos Block II missiles.

...
...

Looks like the Brahmos system cost around $1 billion per IA regiment. Without counting the included subsystems, each missile averages out to a max. of around INR 25 crores [= 9,484 crores / (134 Block I + 240 Block II)]. Actual cost of each missile will be lower as the overall cost will have included MCP, MAL, MRV and other support infrastructure.

For a rough estimate purposes using the IA order (qty. and in crores) as the baseline,

IN order is around 140 missiles [= (134 Block I + 240 Block II) * (3,568 crores / 9,484 crores)]. Since the Ship-launched version will not need MCP/MAL/MRV but still require some level of ship integration, this order total could be around 200 missiles if those additional costs are factored out.
IAF order is around 51 missiles [= (134 Block I + 240 Block II) * (1,295 crores / 9,484 crores)]. Since the Air-launched version will not need MCP/MAL/MRV, this order total could be around 100 missiles if those additional costs are factored out.

On the numbers breakdown, here is what it looks to be:

...The Land based Weapon Complex comprises of four to six Mobile Autonomous Launchers (MAL) controlled by a Mobile Command Post (MCP), and a Mobile Replenishment Vehicle (MRV). MAL is an autonomous vehicle with its own communication, power supply and fire control system. Three BRAHMOS missiles placed in three independent containers are based on the MAL. The missiles can be fired on three different targets or in a variety of other combinations near simultaneously. The land based version is also equipped with Inertial Navigation System and Global Positioning System.
...

From the brahmos.com image and text, it seems each Brahmos battery has the following:

1 x Mobile Command Post (MCP)
4 x Mobile Autonomous Launchers (MAL) w/ total ready to launch missiles = 12 Brahmos missiles [4 MAL * 3 missiles)
1 x Mobile Replenishment Vehicle (MRV)
Plus, reload/reserve missiles

Each Regiment could have the following (if standard 4 batteries per regiment) with the cost of $1 billion per regiment:

4 x MCP [4 batteries * 1 MCP each]
16 x MAL [4 batteries * 4 MAL each] w/ total ready to launch missiles = 48 Brahmos missiles [16 MAL * 3 missiles]
4 x MRV [4 batteries * 1 MRV each]
134 (Brahmos I) or 120 (Brahmos II) x Brahmos missiles (48 ready to launch and around 72 reserve)
Plus, reserve MCP, MAL, MRV and missiles

With 134 BrahMos Block I missiles (1 regiment) and another 240 BrahMos Block II missiles (2 regiments), each regiment will have roughly 2 to 3 reloads if 48 missiles are in a ready to launch mode per regiment.

If the IA orders 2 more regiments of Brahmos Block III (i.e. 240 missiles), the totals for the Brahmos comes out to be the following (estimates):

IA -> 614 missiles (134 Brahmos I + 240 Brahmos II + 240 Brahmos III)
IN -> 200 missiles (3,568 crores order for ship-launched version)
IAF -> 100 missiles (1,295 crores order for air-launched version)

Total: 914 Brahmos missiles

aniket · Post by **aniket** » 30 Jan 2012 09:14

Each Krasnopol is rumored to cost around 40K$

Actually it is supposed to cost 15 lakh per piece.
According to this site they are defective,is this true ? Can anyone shed light on this matter
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/ind ... ive-02872/

koti · Post by **koti** » 30 Jan 2012 10:56

Kanson wrote:which Army's requirement is more than that of Indian Army. Local requirement itself is huge.

Maybe true. But we are not looking to export this to a single country either.Multiple exports cause the orders to sore and the unit costs reduced.

Vietnam/SoKo/Israel due to their size and geography can have more then tactical use of this platform.
We can have a very demanding market in Gulf and South America too.

This can be a 8itch slap to NoKo for the NoDong threat we face in our neighborhood.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 30 Jan 2012 11:35

which Army's requirement is more than that of Indian Army. Local requirement itself is huge.

It is less a question of "How much?" than "When?".

Obviously the missile would not be mature till it is tested 10-15 times with different modes/maneuvering (may be another 2-3 years). But the concept is already there. We have modified prithvi, brahmos to do maneuvers and tragectories, so the experience is also there. What we need is prospective clients. We should let exports grow.

If IA wants to do a Nag type of protracted testing for two decades, with a million options, they still can. Without affecting India's pride, strategic leverage or export income. Prahaar is not something tailor made to some indian GSQR. If it is as accurate, cheap and modular as it claims, it should have bright export prospects.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 30 Jan 2012 11:48

Odisha ordnance factory likely to produce Pinaka rocket

Badar · Post by **Badar** » 30 Jan 2012 15:53

Kailash wrote: Prahaar is not something tailor made to some indian GSQR. If it is as accurate, cheap and modular as it claims, it should have bright export prospects.

Hard to do that if people don't see a large domestic customer backing the product.

koti · Post by **koti** » 30 Jan 2012 16:34

Not Really.
Since the system falls into somewhat unexploited area, other forces may see its use in their doctrine even if IA's doctrine cannot accommodate it.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 30 Jan 2012 23:15

Kailash wrote:
which Army's requirement is more than that of Indian Army. Local requirement itself is huge.
It is less a question of "How much?" than "When?".

Obviously the missile would not be mature till it is tested 10-15 times with different modes/maneuvering (may be another 2-3 years). But the concept is already there. We have modified prithvi, brahmos to do maneuvers and tragectories, so the experience is also there. What we need is prospective clients. We should let exports grow.

If IA wants to do a Nag type of protracted testing for two decades, with a million options, they still can. Without affecting India's pride, strategic leverage or export income. Prahaar is not something tailor made to some indian GSQR. If it is as accurate, cheap and modular as it claims, it should have bright export prospects.

Prahaar is built for the Indian Army. Period. My reply was wrt to lowering price by exporting in numbers. So I asked who are the potential customer willing to buy in such significant numbers which is expected to lower prices than what Indian order can do. Put some numbers against the claim, you will see.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 31 Jan 2012 15:36

Kanson, when I said prospective clients, I meant ascertaining numbers. That could only be done after discussions with interested parties.

Ignoring total cost for a minute, look at the cost distribution over the entire production period. Initial/Capital costs would form the bulk of the investment. And bigger the batch size, lower the unit costs. Whether Indian army buys 50% or 90% of the manufactured missiles doesn't really matter - as long as they are produced and inducted in desired numbers

What matters is with bigger order book, production would be continuous (unlike, say, Arjun).

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 31 Jan 2012 15:43

Kanson wrote:Prahaar is built for the Indian Army. Period.

Prahaar was built with Indian Army is "mind." There is a lot of difference.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 31 Jan 2012 16:58

Not true. When demand/yr increases, one can try to optimize the steps, run additional shifts, or do some expansion. If demand/yr is beyond what could be supported by incremental increase, then a brand new facility, new equipment, new labor force, transportation and whole logistics is required. All of these are expensive you see.

Obviously, that is true in any production run. That is whey we have SLAs - from the day IA places an order it would be X months for deliveries to start. Till then we atleast HAVE that choice to increase production incrementally. Also remember that there would SLA agreements with export customers as well - where we can introduce caveats to cover our a&& in case of emergency/war

I agree with Kanson that whatever be the numbers, IA's share would be big, if not the biggest. IMHO, the total orders would not warrant new facilities. So it would only make it cheaper for India.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 01 Feb 2012 21:34

Now, laser guided bullets -

Self-steering bullet researched by US weapons experts - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-16810107

An LED attached to a prototype bullet shows its flightpath during a night-time field test

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Feb 2012 21:42

lockheed/raytheon will claim next they have a tri-mode mmw/iir/gps seeker for these bullets using mems and a dual pulse rocket motor with a lofted range of 10km to give each soldier a virtual "micro hellfire" capability via rifle to sensor datalink lol. then someone will fit a diamondback range extention kit to give a range of 50km and "micro jsow" for every GI.

anyway its OT for this thread.