India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 3

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SaiK
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 27 Jan 2012 03:26

Per mayan prophecies -we should cancel this deal then.. if destruction of our enemies are included, and say 90% of chippanda are wiped out, why waste money on MMRCA? :D

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Kartik » 27 Jan 2012 11:10

Badar wrote:
SaiK wrote:Badar, I understand your anxiety, but that post of yours on gripen is not coherent at all.

Saik, read the second "inside information" leaked by raghuk; it will become clear.

ref: supposed Rohini radar "scandal".


Don't tell me that you too were fooled by Prasun Sengupta and his BS on the Rohini being a Polish TRS-19 radar in reality!

That guy's lies were exposed by some poster named Ravi

Ravi said...

Hi Shiv,

Prasun has been barking up the wrong tree for a long while and his claims are an absolute farce.

PIT didnt provide any technology "buy out" for LRDE to avail of.

The LRDE actually ran a phased array project called Project Vajra, ask any of us at LRDE for details, and that led to the CAR project.

DRDO was aware of PITs radar work and asked if they were interested in taking project Vajra further. The aim was to now take the phased array project and make a Planar array radar with a brand new array that would be lighter. PIT showed their own work in this regard and agreed, they had been tapped by the Polish Govt to develop a new series of radars as well.

The joint effort of both organizations was the the 3D CAR for DRDO, and the TRS-19 for Poland.

Both radars are different, and use different signal processing units.

The item common to both radars is the basic design of the planar array antenna, which scans (electronically) in elevation, and rotates for azimuth coverage.

PIT has not developed the TRS-19 further, but have concentrated on other derivatives for long range theater coverage.

PIT also ran a tender for its own separate maritime surveillance project, and purchased LRDE's antennas (slotted array) for the same.

In India, DRDO developed the 3D CAR into the Rohini. For this radar, Astra Microwave and DRDO developed new microwave components and L&T was roped in for a new rotational assembly, for the radar to make it sufficiently compact for IAF usage. The signal processing and radar data processing was designed and developed by a team led by the Late Dr Radhakrishnan of LRDE, and Dr Cleetus (ex head, LRDE). The Rohini and Revathi are completely DRDO's babies, they in fact, dont even use the original planar array developed with PIT, but a brand new one able to handle increased power, as well as an all new digital beamformer.

The Revathi in fact, is even more sophisticated. It uses a completely de novo bi axis stabilisation system again developed by the DRDO in specific for the Navy. This is because the Revathi is intended for the Navy, and needs to be stabilised.

Reading some of the responses above, and your uncritical acceptance of the bilge that Prasun writes, is saddening.

For one, give credit where credit is due.

The Rohini is an all Indian radar developed by the DRDO, with extensive time consuming involvement by the Indian Air Force, the user. It is no off the shelf import, knocked together as license assembly under fancy terms of import of technology or technology buyout.

For more details about the DRDO's radar technology, please do look at the DRDO techfocus about the same.

Prasun is habitually unreliable when it comes to talking about the DRDO or for that matter about most matters relating to Indian defence.

Case in point, please ask him for any corroborative proof about the absolute nonsense he wrote about India corroborating with Taiwan for ramjet based missiles, and for all the hoopla about India making all sorts of fancy weapons. In his latest article, he went so far as to call the BEL WLR an active phased array radar. The man does not even know the difference between a PESA and an AESA, the former of which the Rajendra based WLR is!

Each of his articles is actually different in "Facts" from the other, merely inventing stuff on the fly to impress a not too critical audience.

Most defence professionals have long got used to these incredibly jingoistic and nonsensical claims from Tempur. Unfortunately, Force continues to carry them without due investigation.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Badar » 27 Jan 2012 11:30

Kartik wrote:
Badar wrote:Saik, read the second "inside information" leaked by raghuk; it will become clear.
ref: supposed Rohini radar "scandal".

Don't tell me that you too were fooled by Prasun Sengupta and his BS on the Rohini being a Polish TRS-19 radar in reality!

Kartik, No I wasn't fooled (this time). Hence the "supposed" and the scandal in quotes. Thanks for the clarification anyway.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby srai » 27 Jan 2012 11:49

SaiK wrote:Per mayan prophecies -we should cancel this deal then.. if destruction of our enemies are included, and say 90% of chippanda are wiped out, why waste money on MMRCA? :D


Well ... the MMRCA deal is not getting signed until after Dec. 21, 2012 ... at the pace it's going :wink:

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby shiv » 27 Jan 2012 17:41

How many days in January? 75?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby nash » 27 Jan 2012 17:52

first expected date is 31 jan..... then 14 feb ... then we will definitely hear something on 31 march...

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Jaybhatt » 27 Jan 2012 21:24

Viv S wrote:
____________________________________________________________________________
Raf Khan wrote:
It seems that RAF EF pilots have received special orders from HQ not to come too close to French borders and to avoid any contact with AAF Rafale.

And where did you stumble across this nugget of information?
_______________________________________________________________

Badar : Check the latest AvLeak mag issue.

Badar : Could you please supply the URL for this article ? It would be most interesting. Eagerly awaiting it.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Lalmohan » 27 Jan 2012 21:54

^^^ in related news, French workers of Eurotunnel (the train connection between the English and French mainlands under the sea) have informed the British side that all English rosbif passengers must disembark mid channel and walk the rest of the way to France where they will be grossly insulted and spat upon before being returned with red faces to l'albion perfide

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Badar » 27 Jan 2012 22:09

Jaybhatt wrote:Badar : Could you please supply the URL for this article ? It would be most interesting. Eagerly awaiting it.

I feel terrible when this happens. It was a poor attempt at a joke on my part. Many apologies for having misled you.

While the magazine itself is real (Aviation Week) there is no such article - I made up the amorous dalliance of Rafale and Typhoon whole cloth.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 27 Jan 2012 22:16

The astrologers are debating on the epoch corrections, and confused on the year itself being the first factor.

They wanted the charts of all decision makers, their births in-turn affecting due to epoch corrections, hence factoring into their current location, finds many difficulties.

all the deductions point to high level secret kalmadi-lets are on a strong multi-prong strategies to invade the MMRCA.. and they are trying to hard to correct the epoch such that it works towards some decision that is nice to hear for the forces.

Right now it is all dark space.. difficult to find the starting point.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby shukla » 28 Jan 2012 04:35

Talks To Sell Typhoons to Oman and Saudi Arabia Continue..

Two years ago, the Omani deal seemed to have been agreed. Then-British prime minister Gordon Brown suggested as much in public, and an aircraft in final assembly at Warton was allocated to Oman. But a British industry source told AIN that Oman would not buy the Typhoons sans an AESA radar. Oman has since requested a second batch of F-16s from the U.S., although the sale has not yet been confirmed. The British government said last week that the RFP represents an important step toward a contract, and that a sale of Typhoons would “bring wider economic, training and education benefits to Oman.”


It seems that both Oman and Saudi Arabia are holding out for Tranche 3 standard Typhoons, with more extensive weapons integration as well as the AESA radar. India has been offered such enhancements to meet its 126-aircraft MMRCA requirement. That country’s long-awaited choice between the four-nation jet and the all-French Rafale could be announced next week.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Philip » 28 Jan 2012 05:34

"It is always darkest before dawn"! The Oracle is in a tranche....sorry ,trance right now.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Kakkaji » 28 Jan 2012 09:30

There will be no decision on Monday since it is Mahatma Gandhi's death anniversary, and no weapon of war is going to be bought that day. :P

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Jaybhatt » 28 Jan 2012 12:04

Badar : thank you for a gracious apology.

It now seems that Raf Khan now needs to enlighten us on the source for his statement about British pilots being told to avoid French air space. Was he kite flying also ? Or was there any substance in his post ?

As far as brother Lalmohan is concerned, my felicitations to him for a delightful message. Clearly no chances of anyone taking it as real news.

Staying very much within the Rafale -Typhoon discussion thread, I must remind all BR Forum members that the Franco - English (please note : not Franco - British) rivalry is the world's oldest spat. Distinctly worse, au fond, than the India - Paki interface.

I have always said that the English have never forgiven the French for having successfully invaded and conquered their island in 1066 (the last time England was conquered).

So, next time, a Limey acts condescendingly with you, dear Bharatvarshiyon, just whisper 1066. Watch the Angrez shrivel. :D

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Lalmohan » 28 Jan 2012 17:18

the anglo-french relationship is far more complex than 1066, the english will cite waterloo and trafalgar - and a thousand battles in between

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby rajatmisra » 28 Jan 2012 17:45

chaanakya wrote:
kuldipchager wrote:kuldip chaggar wrote:
Somebody like it or don't like it.Mig 29K and Mig 35 are developed by India's funding.
They will not select any off the two birds until Mig 35 starting testing.
Then the deal might be done,then Mig 35 will come through back door.


Not a pleasant topic, but:

Oct 2011 :: Death of Mikoyan

This is the worst case that I have read about. I said this long back, the MiG is gone, I just never saw it is a viable option. Great air craft. But, not a viable one.

BTW, India backed Sukhoi - all the way. Seems like there was and is a far better synergy between the two - ever since the MKI story. Even with the 5th gen one, I can bet that India will play a far larger role.



Can we not hire experienced designers to work with Indian engineers? If Boeing can, why can't HAL? What better way for ToT?

Evearybody have a right to express his opion*********

Mig 35 will have 5th genration Technology from I/R fighter which will be easy to apply.
And west will hold it back.


India faced intractable issues with Russian suppliers and MIG with spares and serviceability, hence orders dropped. MIG 35 could not be considered , even 29 is having these issues.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby shiv » 28 Jan 2012 21:44

Thirty days hath September
April June and November
But January has 72 days, 400% more than other months

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby nash » 28 Jan 2012 22:55

that article is year old... :P

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Cain Marko » 29 Jan 2012 05:53

I confess that this delay somewhat gives me more hope! Hope that this circus get scrapped and IAF is "forced" to order a few extra sqds of the Tejas mk1. Even if not fully developed, by ordering a large number and inducting them it will help in terms of production issues as well as keeping costs low. They can sort out snags, and refine the bird in service as they did with the Rafale and Tiffy. As it currently stands, it should be able to replace all the floggers and fishbeds without much fuss.

What the IAF really needs imho is a nice lightish interceptor, qra bird capable of tactical strike, point defence, and CAP. The Tejas Mk1 should be able to do all of this better than a MiG-21bis (even Bison once the derby/python are installed) and the MiG-27.

A cursory comparison bet the LCA and Bison shows that LCA is markedly ahead even when it comes to basic parameters:

Bison/LCA
E. wt: 5600kg / 6500kg
max power: 7000kgf / 8500kgf
twr @ 4 MRAAM + 2 SRAAM + 1/2 int fuel: 0.88 vs. 0.96 (almost 1.00).
Wingloading: 340kg/msq / 230kg/msq
range on int. fuel: 1250km / 1800km

This should certainly allow it better ITR/STRs, acceleration than the fishbed once the flight envelope is fully expanded. Avionics, sensors, ergonomics etc the LCA is well ahead.

The biggest concern is quick induction and numbers imho, and the Tejas can fill this gap. In a worst case scenario, a few more MKis, SMTs or M2ks can be had. The MRCA is operationally not so critical - there is v. little the RAfale/Tiffy offer in terms of op. needs or technology that cannot be gained by upgrading the MKI, developing the Pakfa, Tejas 2 or AMCA. A $ 15 billion tag is almost criminal at this point when needs could be easily met at about a 3rd of that cost.

CM
Last edited by Cain Marko on 29 Jan 2012 05:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Kakkaji » 29 Jan 2012 06:05

Cain Marko wrote:
Bison/LCA
E. wt: 5600kg / 6500kg



The Bison is lighter than the 'Light Combat Aircraft'?

Isn't the LCA supposed to be the lightest fighter aircraft in the world? :-?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby eklavya » 29 Jan 2012 06:25

Cain Marko wrote:I confess that this delay somewhat gives me more hope! Hope that this circus get scrapped and IAF is "forced" to order a few extra sqds of the Tejas mk1. Even if not fully developed, by ordering a large number and inducting them it will help in terms of production issues as well as keeping costs low.

They can sort out snags, and refine the bird in service as they did with the Rafale and Tiffy. As it currently stands, it should be able to replace all the floggers and fishbeds without much fuss.


And I presume you expect the IAF to commit suicide against PLAAF Su-30s and PAF F-16s by operating a "not fully developed" Tejas Mk 1 in war time? Perhaps you can request PLAAF and PAF to go easy on the Tejas Mk 1? Or maybe they can be requested (in the interest of fair play) to delay any war until the Tejas Mk 1 is fully operational.


Cain Marko wrote:What the IAF really needs imho is a nice lightish interceptor, qra bird capable of tactical strike, point defence, and CAP. The Tejas Mk1 should be able to do all of this better than a MiG-21bis (even Bison once the derby/python are installed) and the MiG-27.


IMHO the IAF has a better sense of what it needs to deter the PLAAF and PAF than perhaps you do.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Cain Marko » 29 Jan 2012 06:26

Kakkaji:
That was the original idea but unfortunately, what with the desire to also make it a truly multirole platform with an internal EW suite and a range comparable to the Mirage 2000, not to mention 8 hps, the bird is no more as light as some may have wished. So - no lightest - greatest jhamela anymore. Jingos hope though that the production variants will be further streamlined and the empty weight will drop - possibly to about 6000kg.
Last edited by Cain Marko on 29 Jan 2012 06:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Cain Marko » 29 Jan 2012 06:39

eklavya wrote:And I presume you expect the IAF to commit suicide against PLAAF Su-30s and PAF F-16s by operating a "not fully developed" Tejas Mk 1 in war time? Perhaps you can request PLAAF and PAF to go easy on the Tejas Mk 1? Or maybe they can be requested (in the interest of fair play) to delay any war until the Tejas Mk 1 is fully operational.

Boy that sure got you fired up! It is not abnormal for AFs across the globe, and I believe similar things have been done by the Indian Armed Forces as well, to induct new products in a stepwise fashion. To begin with, a given bird might not be fully capable - perhaps missing a few A2A/A2G modes, but in a few years, it'll be acceptable. Hence the IOC-FOC process. In fact, in many ways, the LCA is already ahead of the MRCA competitors when it comes to being useful to the IAF. The IAF will have a steep learning curve once the MRCAs start being inducted - a good 2-3 years from now. IOWs, no MRCA is going to be straightaway put on the front vs. the fearsome solahs/ cheeni flankers it'll take a while.

And like I said, if they need things to face up to the PLAAF/PAF threat asap, a quick interim buy of used M2ks, extra Mkis, and fulcrums might be more useful.

Cain Marko wrote:IMHO the IAF has a better sense of what it needs to deter the PLAAF and PAF than perhaps you do.

I should thinks so, but irrespective of how fine a sense the IAF has of what it really needs, it has to work with a GOI and associated ministries that make things a bit nonsensical. IIRC, the IAF had already set forth its very clear requirements for the M2ks about a decade ago, as things stand, the bird that the IAF really reqd. is no more in the race - so much for needs. Btw, by those standards (M2k), the LCA is hardly too far from its original requirements.

CM

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Philip » 29 Jan 2012 13:56

The next war may indeed be fought with an assortment of combat systems with which we are familiar with,but the future is going the unmanned (and cyberwarfare ) way in all 3 dimensions-space in any case has been mainly umanned for aeons,plus missiles are also going to be accompanied and later perhaps replaced in part by EW and direct energy weapons.UAVs from micro to massive stealthy high alt. long endurance mission-for days even upto a month,are already in the works.Removing man from the machine also makes it smaller,therefore in 50 years time,which only a few lucky/unlucky members might survive to tell the tale,warfare would be so different to what we now know it to be.The tank as we know it,a large lumbering mass of armour weighing upto 65t+,may very well go the way of the horse,being replaced by unmanned helos/flying machines.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Badar » 29 Jan 2012 17:45

eklavya wrote:And I presume you expect the IAF to commit suicide against PLAAF Su-30s and PAF F-16s by operating a "not fully developed" Tejas Mk 1 in war time?

No and Yes.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby eklavya » 29 Jan 2012 18:12

Cain Marko wrote:In fact, in many ways, the LCA is already ahead of the MRCA competitors when it comes to being useful to the IAF.


Is this the humour thread?

Cain Marko wrote:The IAF will have a steep learning curve once the MRCAs start being inducted - a good 2-3 years from now. IOWs, no MRCA is going to be straightaway put on the front vs. the fearsome solahs/ cheeni flankers it'll take a while.


On the contrary, I expect the first IAF Rafale/Typhoon squadron to be authorised for combat operations well before the first Tejas Mk 1 squadron.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Cain Marko » 29 Jan 2012 19:48

eklavya wrote:Is this the humour thread?

Yeah, why don't you continue to provide it?

On the contrary, I expect the first IAF Rafale/Typhoon squadron to be authorised for combat operations well before the first Tejas Mk 1 squadron.

Yes, and I am sure the GOI/MOD is working as per your great expectation! - let them at least sign a contract - talk about humor. In any case, FOC for the Tejas is expected around 2013, and 1 sqd at least by 2015. Not much difference from a v. optimistic MRCA contract signing of "sometime" in 2012. First the L1 has to be chosen, thereafter further negotiations until contract is signed. They'll be lucky if it happens in 2012 what with assembly elections and the need to be honest. Or may be the current GOI will realize it is losing and sign off on the deal just for the kickbacks?

Let us hope that the Tejas does not get delayed any further, this MRCA circus is still up in the air - total paper planes as far as the IAF are concerned.

First, the bird has to be chosen and package negotiated, then file goes to MOF, which then sends it back to MOD, which then sends it to CCS, which then approves it, and then contract is signed -perhaps in 2012 (being optimistic).
Second, assuming no delays happen, 18 a/c have to be delivered within 36 months of the signing or do deliveries start after 36 months?
If all goes well, first sqd of MRCA, which probably will be limited in its capabilities, not unlike the Tejas Mk1 or the Su-30K, should be ready by 2016. So, they will probly keep the bird around home base (Bengaluru?) for at least until the time that the second sqd comes online - 2018?

Can't see why Tejas can't match/beat that timeline. Expect FOC by 2013, after that it is a matter of ramping up production to meet FOC std. birds. A large order can mean possibly 2 lines, and faster deliveries. In any case, including the LSPs, sqd # 1 should be ready by 2015 - fully operational. Even if Tejas mk2 starts coming in by 2018, it is not an issue. Induct as many mk1s as possible by then.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 29 Jan 2012 20:25

the 1st mrca squadron has been earmarked for ambala per a post here.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Rakesh » 29 Jan 2012 20:45

Switzerland, Dassault strikes back
http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2012/01/switzerland-dassault-strikes-back.html

...Dassault Aviation has made a new offer to Switzerland for 18 Rafale on January 19, 2012. The price would be CHF 2.7 billions (€2.2 billions) some CHF 400 millions (€331.7 millions) cheaper than the 22 Gripen offered by Sweden.


As per today's exchange rates...€2.2 billion is roughly USD $2.8 billion for 18 Rafales.

€2.2 billion for 18 Rafale is roughly €122 milion per aircraft (or ~ USD $160 million).

That number could include spares, weapons, etc. That is still pricey!

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Rakesh » 29 Jan 2012 21:18

Cain Marko: Neither the MMRCA or the HAL Tejas can be deployed to the front line right away. You have to develop a pool of qualified pilots who can fly the aircraft. We can't just take a pilot (who flies the Bison, MiG-29 or Mirage 2000) and hand him the keys to a HAL Tejas or the MMRCA. Remember Wing Commander P S Nara who died in the first Rambha crash? He was not qualified to fly on the Rambha. He was a MiG-21 pilot. Although the first Rambha crash was not entirely the pilot's fault, you cannot put pilots on planes they are not qualified to fly.

Sukhoi crash: wrong pilot in right plane
http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed/India/Sukhoi-crash-wrong-pilot-in-right-plane/Article1-405999.aspx

Flying a fighter jet is not like driving a new car that one buys from the showroom. It takes quite a while before the pilot begins to master the aircraft that he is flying and only then can he move on to the next phase. See the Line of Duty program (youtube) on the Su-30MKI. The first squadron that is raised will also be given the task to develop the syllabus for the aircraft. All this takes a considerable amount of time and energy.

That having being said, Rafale and Typhoon are definitely more combat proven that the HAL Tejas. They will not be limited in its capabilities. If you still feel so, please elaborate in which specific areas these aircraft will be deficient. Secondly can you please illustrate how the LCA is already ahead of the MMRCA competitors? The IAF has gone on record in stating that the Mk.1 variant does not meet its requirements and they are waiting for the Mk.2 version. If I am facing fearsome solahs/cheeni flankers...I would rather be in the MMRCA than in the Mk.1 variant of the HAL Tejas.

P.S. The Rafale is a true MMRCA platform, in that it performs a variety of roles (air-to-air, air-to-ground, recon, nuclear strike)...much of which the HAL Tejas has yet to prove.

By the way, this is the same reason why China's J-20 (at present) is nothing more than a technology demonstrator. There is no way - as many on this forum and elsewhere - that the J-20 will outgun and outfly the Typhoon or the Rafale in the near future.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Aditya_V » 29 Jan 2012 21:21

Rakesh wrote:Switzerland, Dassault strikes back
http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2012/01/switzerland-dassault-strikes-back.html

...Dassault Aviation has made a new offer to Switzerland for 18 Rafale on January 19, 2012. The price would be CHF 2.7 billions (€2.2 billions) some CHF 400 millions (€331.7 millions) cheaper than the 22 Gripen offered by Sweden.


As per today's exchange rates...€2.2 billion is roughly USD $2.8 billion for 18 Rafales.

€2.2 billion for 18 Rafale is roughly €122 milion per aircraft (or ~ USD $160 million).

That number could include spares, weapons, etc. That is still pricey!


Agreed , but for 126 aircraft with some part of the production in India and commonality with M-2000. The price could me much cheaper for India. than 18 aircraft for the Swiss.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Rakesh » 29 Jan 2012 21:23

Aditya_V wrote:Agreed, but for 126 aircraft with some part of the production in India and commonality with M-2000. The price could me much cheaper for India. than 18 aircraft for the Swiss.


You are correct. I was highlighting how much the Swiss are paying for their new fighter purchase.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Cain Marko » 29 Jan 2012 22:11

Rakesh wrote:Cain Marko: Neither the MMRCA or the HAL Tejas can be deployed to the front line right away. You have to develop a pool of qualified pilots who can fly the aircraft. We can't just take a pilot (who flies the Bison, MiG-29 or Mirage 2000) and hand him the keys to a HAL Tejas or the MMRCA. Remember Wing Commander P S Nara who died in the first Rambha crash? He was not qualified to fly on the Rambha. He was a MiG-21 pilot. Although the first Rambha crash was not entirely the pilot's fault, you cannot put pilots on planes they are not qualified to fly.

Sukhoi crash: wrong pilot in right plane
http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed/India/Sukhoi-crash-wrong-pilot-in-right-plane/Article1-405999.aspx

Flying a fighter jet is not like driving a new car that one buys from the showroom. It takes quite a while before the pilot begins to master the aircraft that he is flying and only then can he move on to the next phase. See the Line of Duty program (youtube) on the Su-30MKI. The first squadron that is raised will also be given the task to develop the syllabus for the aircraft. All this takes a considerable amount of time and energy.


All of which I agree with. And this is precisely why I said what I did in the previous posts:
To make it clear, since it will take a while for the IAF to actually get the MRCA combat ready, the Tejas might make it during the same time frame - circa 2017. I simply don't see why a sqd or two of Tejas Mk1 can't be inducted by then - it is the current plan isn't it, FOC by 2013, 40 birds in the next few years? Point is, if FOC is achieved, the bird is ready, period. And if it is ready, it is definitely better than any MiG-21 variant out there. As it stands, if the IAF can be comfy facing an enemy in Bisons, why not Tejas?

That having being said, Rafale and Typhoon are definitely more combat proven that the HAL Tejas. They will not be limited in its capabilities. If you still feel so, please elaborate in which specific areas these aircraft will be deficient.

Yes, more proven no doubt. But limited for sure - where is the AESA? Will the first sqd of Tiffies come equipped with the Caesar? Having said that, I am not suggesting, even remotely, that the LCA is a more capable platform. What I am saying is - if the need of the hour is MiG-21 replacements, which it is, the LCA should more than do the job. Furthermore, by the time a full specced MRCA comes in - quite likely after 2018, the Tejas mk2 should be ready for induction. The time lines are quite parallel. We may even see a Pakfa at that time.
Secondly can you please illustrate how the LCA is already ahead of the MMRCA competitors?

Not in terms of performance Rakesh. But certainly ahead in terms of familiarity. The bird is already past IOC and has been inducted albeit with ltd capabilities. Now to iron out the remaining snags - and FOC by 2013.

The IAF has gone on record in stating that the Mk.1 variant does not meet its requirements and they are waiting for the Mk.2 version. If I am facing fearsome solahs/cheeni flankers...I would rather be in the MMRCA than in the Mk.1 variant of the HAL Tejas.

A one on one comparison vs. flankers/blk 50 is fruitless - a lot of other factors will be involved, esp. in a defensive posture for the IAF. AWACS support for eg. can certainly diminish the advantages of enemy fighters. Frankly, the only thing the MRCA provides over the LCA in real terms is the ability to do deep strike/A2A missions more robustly. And vs. the PAF solahs and Cheeni flankers, it is not as though the IAF won't have MKIs, and upgraded fulcrums to do similar jobs. More than enough from what DACT exercises have so far shown us. Point to note is that even the Bison was considered a difficult proposition vs. the blk 50 F-16 and even F-15Cs. The Tejas mk1 offers a LOT more than the Bison, can't see why it can't play an effective role replacing the fishbeds and even floggers.

And even if the IAF is still not satisfied, the mk2 is on its way. Shoot, if needed, just get the Qatari M2ks and extra Mkis to bide the time. The bogey of cheeni flankers/Paf solahs, is easily handled in the near future by a mix of upgraded fulcrums, Vajras, Rambhas and the LCA. No need for exotic Rafale or Tiffy for swatting flies. What is really needed is robust fighters in numbers that can be inducted and supported via a solid supply chain - the Tejas can match and perhpas even better the MRCA here.

The problem here is essentially the idea of replacing small, light fighters with massive twin engined ones. 1) We can never do this in the numbers reqd. And quantity is critical, especially at this point. 2) The point is further supported by the fact that the IAF less than 5 years ago wished for a similar Tejas like light single engined fighter as its number one choice, namely, the Mirage 2000. What has so dramatically changed the IAF's need in 5 years? Nothing! It is mvvho that the only change has been Congress GOI. The change in govt. with the need to support US fighter bids, all of a sudden the whole barn door was opened, and the original need completely sacrificed. It is very much like a person asking for a cup of water, and suddenly, a promise of dom perignon being offered, but sir all the man asked for was H2O wonlee, it'll do the job.

The MRCA in its current state is rather illogical, and this is not a criticism of the IAF but of the powers that be. The IAF will wind up with probly the most top heavy fighter force in the world. Even the USAF at its mightiest had larger numbers of lighter fighters (f-16s) vs. twin engined heavies such as the F-15. DItto with the USSR despite its extra ordinary size. Otoh, we are looking at a top heavy force with twin engined heavies such as the Pakfa + MKI + MRCA + AMCA (900 units?) vs. 150 single engined Tejas!

P.S. The Rafale is a true MMRCA platform, in that it performs a variety of roles (air-to-air, air-to-ground, recon, nuclear strike)...much of which the HAL Tejas has yet to prove.

No argument here - I like the Rafale. And the Tejas is not to be compared with said bird at all. But will do for immediate IAF needs a LOT better such as replacing the Bisons. I don't buy the idea that this MRCA circus is the IAF's brainchild - its requirements were farsighted as well as clear - single engined M2k, and as of now the Tejas comes a lot closer to this requirement than the Rafale/Tiffy. Of course, it is not that the IAF will complain if they get an uber Rafale - why look a gift horse in the mouth wonlee?

By the way, this is the same reason why China's J-20 (at present) is nothing more than a technology demonstrator. There is no way - as many on this forum and elsewhere - that the J-20 will outgun and outfly the Typhoon or the Rafale in the near future.

Yes, but when the J20 does fly, and surely it will, I'd rather be in a Pakfa than either the Tiffy or Rafale. Another reason why these two birds are somewhat unnecessary. The top end tech/performance they offer will be nicely eclipsed by the Pakfa, which is right around the corner anyway.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby arthuro » 30 Jan 2012 02:38

From Kovy's blog in the comments part a swiss journalist gave some details of the swiss competition :

http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2012/01/ ... -back.html

I'm the author of the article in the "Matin Dimanche" and the "SonntagsZeitung" / twitter: @titusplattner

@raffeur Yes, it's all includes weapons, ammo, infrastructure, etc. Simulator is not necessary, because swiss pilots will have the training slots in France.

the CHF 2.7 billions for 18 Rafale is with a change rate of CHF 1.20 for 1 euro
the CHF 4.0 billions for 22 Rafale was calculated with a change rate of 1.30 for 1 euro, as asked by the Swiss Federal departement of finance
that means that Dassault (who wants to be paid in euro) made a discount of about 15%.

The swiss evaluation had ten modules. The Rafale won the two flight modules (flight tests + projected flight capabilities).

The Rafale also won the module about the ability to maintain a an alert status during a long period, and the module about military cooperation.


For the noise pollution module, the three competitors had about the same score. These results are public:
http://www.offiziere.ch/wp-content/u...k02F2kV1w&ct=w

This is also the case for the industrial cooperation module. EADS, Dassault and Saab had about the same score. But Saab has more contracts with Ruag, (100% state owned).

The five other modules are unknown yet. But there is a financial module, a module about the "Eignung" (adequacy to Switzerland - infrastructure). I guess there were also weapon module and an avionics module. And a module about about aircraft maintenance

Gripen won the financial module and the module about aircraft maintenance costs. These two scores allowed the Gripen to (just) reach the minimal note of 6/10.

If you have any infos for me, please contact me at titus.plattner@edipresse.ch


funny that despite a strong emphasis on AtA the swiss rated the rafale above the Typhoon even on Air superiority (see chart hereunder)

Also from the same guy (from slide n°5) :

http://www.offiziere.ch/wp-content/uplo ... 428255.ppt

Evaluationskriterien (1/2)
operationelle Wirksamkeit (60 %) - Luft-Luft (50 %) - Aufklärung und Luft-Boden (je 20 %) - Wachstumspotential (10 %)
operationelle Eignung (15 %) - Wartungs-Prozesse (30 %) - Miliztauglichkeit (25 %) - Kompatibilität mit CH Infrastruktur (25 %) - Lärm- und Abgas-Emissionen (20 %)
Beteiligung / Kooperation (25 %) - Beteiligung CH Industrie (70 %) - militärische Kooperation (30 %)


remember :
Image

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 30 Jan 2012 02:57

कुलद यू प्लेअसे ट्रांस्लाते आईटी तो इंग्लिश?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Philip » 30 Jan 2012 03:28

CM,nice analysis.The US wanting us to buy its wares gave the deal much momentum,as it thought that the hinted at unwritten agreement to buy much US mil.eqpt. as a pay-off for the N-deal would see on of its birds chosen.Adding to this was the fear factor of the PRC and its land-grabbing ambitions of Indian territory.That is where the twin-engined req. took precedence over a single-engined fighter.

The big Q is where is the strategic bombing capability vis-a-vis China? Answer: Zero.This to me is a very glaring factor and instead of buying a massive qty. of MMRCAs and exercising the full options of around 200 aircraft ,we should reduce the final qty of MMRCAs ,while keeping production opsnhave at least two sqds. of dedicated strategic bombers which can be used for both LR stand-off PGMs and N-tipped missiles and bombs.The SU-34 comes to mind,but even this long-legged bird might require refuelling on the way to Beijing.Backfires/Blackjacks a major option,but perhaps better operated by the IN which has a huge maritime region/s to sanitise and control.

Once the final prices/costs are known to each finalist,is there still scope for more byzantine bargaining as in the Swiss offer?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby shukla » 30 Jan 2012 04:51

Talking about the Swiss competition, here's a twist..

French jet firm makes Swiss new offer: report

GENEVA — French aircraft maker Dassault has made a new offer to Switzerland for its Rafale fighter jets after the government decided in November to buy Sweden's Gripen planes instead, a report said Sunday. Dassault has sent a letter to parliament -- which has yet to approve the November decision -- offering 18 Rafale planes for 2.7 billion Swiss francs (2.24 billion euros, 2.96 billion dollars), reported Le Matin Dimanche, which said it had seen the letter.

In November, Dassault lost out on a bid to replace Switzerland's ageing F5 fighter fleet when the Federal Council opted instead to buy 22 Saab Gripen fighter planes for an estimated 3.1 billion francs.

But parliament still has to approve the decision. "Yes, I have received this letter," Hans Hess of the parliament's security commission told the newspaper. Hess gave no further details but said it would be discussed by the upper house group on February 13. Defence Minister Ueli Maurer meanwhile told the Sonntags Zeitung he was not aware of the offer.

The government considered Rafales, Gripens and Eurofighters produced by the EADS consortium. In making its decision it argued that Gripen jets met airforce needs without compromising the budgets of other military branches. Dassault was not immediately available for comment on Sunday.


Wonder if this was a Swiss plan all along to use the Gripen as a bargaining chip?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Rakesh » 30 Jan 2012 09:10

Cain Marko wrote:All of which I agree with. And this is precisely why I said what I did in the previous posts:
To make it clear, since it will take a while for the IAF to actually get the MRCA combat ready, the Tejas might make it during the same time frame - circa 2017. I simply don't see why a sqd or two of Tejas Mk1 can't be inducted by then - it is the current plan isn't it, FOC by 2013, 40 birds in the next few years? Point is, if FOC is achieved, the bird is ready, period, and if it is ready, it is definitely better than any MiG-21 variant out there. As it stands, if the IAF can be comfy facing an enemy in Bisons, why not Tejas?


Cain...the key word here is *might*

Everything in India takes forever to complete. The only thing that came on time and under budget in recent memory was the C-130 delivery. The other being the VVIP transports that were purchased for the IAF. It is amazing how are politicians and babus can move files with rapid ease when it involves their own transport. They can certainly be efficient when they want to. Anyway I digress...back on topic.

The Mk.1 variant is scheduled only for FOC by mid-2014. That is nearly 2.5 years away. See below;

Tejas induction only by mid-2014
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/205807/tejas-induction-only-mid-2014.html

Answering queries from the media after inaugurating a conference here, Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne said the IOC-2 is expected only by mid-2012 and the final operational clearance could be scheduled only two years after that.


Now imagine how long Mk.2 will take to get the FOC, with the first test flight scheduled for Dec 2013.

Cain Marko wrote:Yes, more proven no doubt. But limited for sure - where is the AESA? Will the first sqd of Tiffies come equipped with the Caesar? Having said that, I am not suggesting, even remotely, that the LCA is a more capable platform. What I am saying is - if the need of the hour is MiG-21 replacements, which it is, the LCA should more than do the job. Furthermore, by the time a full specced MRCA comes in - quite likely after 2018, the Tejas mk2 should be ready for induction. The time lines are quite parallel. We may even see a Pakfa at that time.


Unfortunately for the HAL Tejas, the IAF no longer looks at the aircraft as being MiG-21 replacements...they want state-of-the-art. They are grudgingly accepting the Mk.1 variant, because the MoD is forcing them to.

By the way...if we sign the MMRCA deal in 2012 and if the Rafale is chosen...we will getting a full specced version in 2015, with the AESA radar. The first AESA-equipped Rafales will be joining the French Air Force in 2012.

Cain Marko wrote:Not in terms of performance Rakesh. But certainly ahead in terms of familiarity. The bird is already past IOC and has been inducted albeit with ltd capabilities. Now to iron out the remaining snags - and FOC by 2013.


Boss...it has yet to pass the revised IOC-2 stage and that is scheduled only for mid-2012. You say snags and you very well may be correct, but the IAF looks at those "snags" and refers to them as deficiencies.

Cain Marko wrote:A one on one comparison vs. flankers/blk 50 is fruitless - a lot of other factors will be involved, esp. in a defensive posture for the IAF. AWACS support for eg. can certainly diminish the advantages of enemy fighters. Frankly, the only thing the MRCA provides over the LCA in real terms is the ability to do deep strike/A2A missions more robustly. And vs. the PAF solahs and Cheeni flankers, it is not as though the IAF won't have MKIs, and upgraded fulcrums to do similar jobs. More than enough from what DACT exercises have so far shown us. Point to note is that even the Bison was considered a difficult proposition vs. the blk 50 F-16 and even F-15Cs. The Tejas mk1 offers a LOT more than the Bison, can't see why it can't play an effective role replacing the fishbeds and even floggers.


In this age of shrinking budgets, can we really afford to induct an aircraft that is suitable only in one role? If the MMRCA (read Rafale) can do deep strike/A2A missions with aplomb...then that is a capability we need.

Yes, but when the J20 does fly, and surely it will, I'd rather be in a Pakfa than either the Tiffy or Rafale. Another reason why these two birds are somewhat unnecessary. The top end tech/performance they offer will be nicely eclipsed by the Pakfa, which is right around the corner anyway.


I would love for anyone on this forum to point out what capabilities the J20 will have...which will make it stand toe-to-toe against the Rafale/Typhoon. Why stop at Pakfa...perhaps we should buy F-22s, because they might be the only thing that will defeat the J-20.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby kuldipchager » 30 Jan 2012 10:18

we should buy F-22s, because they might be the only thing that will defeat the J-20.

Right now usa have problem to have f 22 because too expensive.First they won't sale it.
I don't understand why we do discuss something like f 22 when we know that we can't have it intil we become dogi poo for them.
We have to wait until Indo/Russian fighter comes out.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby koti » 30 Jan 2012 10:45

Rakesh wrote:
Cain Marko wrote: Yes, but when the J20 does fly, and surely it will, I'd rather be in a Pakfa than either the Tiffy or Rafale. Another reason why these two birds are somewhat unnecessary. The top end tech/performance they offer will be nicely eclipsed by the Pakfa, which is right around the corner anyway.

I would love for anyone on this forum to point out what capabilities the J20 will have...which will make it stand toe-to-toe against the Rafale/Typhoon. Why stop at Pakfa...perhaps we should buy F-22s, because they might be the only thing that will defeat the J-20.


We are overlooking an important fact here, Tiffy/Rafa have a more immediate role of dealing with swarms of PLAAF MKk and other derivatives.
LCA in its current form and Pak-Fa that will come only in the future can not offer us this.

Pak-Fa will be able to match or out perform the J20 when they come.


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