Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 01 Feb 2012 19:14

Ajit.C wrote:Sharma wrote:
Sore loosers....

Well the 1 billion aid is repentance for centuries of exploiting our resources.

And do not forget about the Investments made by India rich including black money in UK even today. GBP 1 Billion is just to buy influence in certain Indian quarters to make more money.

Ganesh_S · Post by **Ganesh_S** » 01 Feb 2012 19:26

Prithwiraj wrote:http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 714642.cms

Eurofighter Typhoon: UK says will urge India to reconsider warplane decision

British Prime Minister David Cameron said on Wednesday that India's decision to choose France's Dassault Aviation over Eurofighter as preferred bidder for a $15 billion war plane contract was disappointing and he would urge India to reconsider.

"Of course I will do everything I can, as I have already, to encourage the Indians to look at Typhoon (Eurofighter) because I think it is such a good aircraft," Cameron told parliament.

"The decision is obviously disappointing but it is about who the Indians have assessed as making the lowest bid and therefore asked to enter into further negotiations. They have not yet awarded the contract," he added.

He said he did not expect any job losses in Britain as a result of the decision and said "it doesn't rule out Typhoon for India."

"We must go on making the case. This (Eurofighter) is a superb aircraft with far better capabilities than Rafale and we will try and encourage the Indians to take that view," he added.

Rafale, made by Dassault, emerged on Tuesday as preferred bidder in the contest to supply India with 126 warplanes.

While exclusive talks are not a guarantee of sale, they deal a probable knockout blow to Rafale's chief rival in India, the Eurofighter Typhoon, a fighter plane developed by a consortium of four European aviation companies --the German and Spanish branches of EADS, Britain's BAE Systems and Italy's Finmeccanica.

Actually all this last minute scramble by Cameron works well for us. It puts our MOD in a pleasant situation as compared to the french.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 01 Feb 2012 19:32

Spot on Ganesh.

We have the Brits in a hot situation and their reaction and our approach should keep the French also eager to please!

The brits should have kept their 1B and given it as a discount. Stupidos!

Akshut · Post by **Akshut** » 01 Feb 2012 19:34

Still 3-4 years for the first squadron to come? From the news report it seems that ToT to HAL will start only after mid-2015. Why this delay of 3-4 years in between? I can't think of any possible logical reason for this incumbency on part of the GoI. Any learned person here can explain this? The first request by IAF was way back in 1998. 15 years to sign a deal, and still 4 years for planes to reach the force.

Ganesh_S · Post by **Ganesh_S** » 01 Feb 2012 19:42

rajanb wrote:Spot on Ganesh.

We have the Brits in a hot situation and their reaction and our approach should keep the French also eager to please!

The brits should have kept their 1B and given it as a discount. Stupidos!

I would be surpriced, if the brits dont debate on this 'aid for deals' philosophy...its quiet an embarassing and unethical situation to be in.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 01 Feb 2012 19:43

harbans wrote:One reason why the Typhoon was knocked out could very well be Saudi Barbaria's AF have signed a deal with BAE to supply 72 (yes) of these. And the Barbarians do employ as we know plenty Paki's. So why go for a fighter that your enemy probably knows pretty well.

Hardly the reason, EF typhoon has a lot of US made avionics and weapons on board, the US woudn't allow Paki pilots to get close into Saudi planes. Furthermore, EFs in Saudi are deployed at bases with significant US presense. The prime reason for choosing the Raffy was price, any other factor has no impact. It is clear the EF outperforms the Raffy is many technical parameters, however the L-1 rule applies. the lowest bidder wins. Even in the trials EF surely performed better,

Faster acceleration, faster climbs, higher flight cieling, higher top speed, better turn rates at altitude, supercruise, Towed decoys, retracting fuel probe

Rafale scored higher in AESA, range and max payload.

It is clear that L-1 has been chosen according to procedure. IAF recommended both for the shortlist since IAF can live with either one of them. MOD picked the cheaper aircraft per unit.

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 01 Feb 2012 20:09

I see a good catchy situation here.

Now the four consortium nations will try to sweaten the deal with typhoon either slashing down the prices or more TOT and more offers. This puts French in a corner and force them to offer more than what the typhoon makers are offering.

And considering the attitude of french prez and war of words between french and brits, both try their 101% to seal the final contract.

My senses tell me that given the current scenario of IAF fleet strength and possibility of a dual-front war, MOD will end-up signing the 126 with French and might add another 40 for strategic forces, while giving a chance of signing a 74 to 100 with typhoon at the last minute with all goodies included

Its a win-win for all parties involved

French bagging the biggest and other europeans saving their jobs in their own massaland

Ganesh_S · Post by **Ganesh_S** » 01 Feb 2012 20:14

jaladipc wrote:I see a good catchy situation here.

Now the four consortium nations will try to sweaten the deal with typhoon either slashing down the prices or more TOT and more offers. This puts French in a corner and force them to offer more than what the typhoon makers are offering.

And considering the attitude of french prez and war of words between french and brits, both try their 101% to seal the final contract.

My senses tell me that given the current scenario of IAF fleet strength and possibility of a dual-front war, MOD will end-up signing the 126 with French and might add another 40 for strategic forces, while giving a chance of signing a 74 to 100 with typhoon at the last minute with all goodies included

Its a win-win for all parties involved French bagging the biggest and other europeans saving their jobs in their own massaland

and what about logistical nightmare on part of IAF ?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 01 Feb 2012 20:15

As I gather, BAE was in denial mode as press broke the news of Rafale win. it seems they do not believe in press declarations.

srai · Post by **srai** » 01 Feb 2012 20:18

Mannu J wrote:Still 3-4 years for the first squadron to come? From the news report it seems that ToT to HAL will start only after mid-2015. Why this delay of 3-4 years in between? I can't think of any possible logical reason for this incumbency on part of the GoI. Any learned person here can explain this? The first request by IAF was way back in 1998. 15 years to sign a deal, and still 4 years for planes to reach the force.

Fighter planes are complex with thousands of parts. They rely on hundreds (if not thousands) of suppliers and manufacturers for each of the parts, and who in turn rely on other suppliers and raw materials. When an order is placed, then only these manufactures place their order for the exact amount of parts required. This is a concept of just-in-time (JIT) inventory, which reduces costs significantly to manufacturers. Each time these suppliers and manufacturers have to go through the usual process of price negotiation, order, inventory, manufacture, delivery, etc. All of these parts and subsystems have to be delivered to the final assembly line to be put together as the fighter plane, tested, and then delivered to client. Typically, this entire process takes at the minimum 36 months for the delivery of the first plane.

After that it all depends on the production rate capacity at the plant, which is determined by number of units in order--higher the quantity, higher the production rate capacity. And this too will need to be scaled up over time because one has to build the necessary infrastructure and hire/train staff. All of these things cost time and money while remaining profitable.

Take a look at recent deals: C-130J, C-17, Arjun MBT, etc. You will notice that they are all in that 36 months delivery timeline once contracts are signed and actual orders are placed.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 01 Feb 2012 20:19

German government regrets India's decision

BERLIN, Feb 1 (Reuters) - The German government regrets India's decision to pick France's Dassault Aviation over Eurofighter as the preferred bidder for a war plane contract, a spokesman said on Wednesday, adding, however, that no deal had yet been signed.

"The German government notes the preliminary decision made by the Indian government," German government spokesman Steffen Seibert said at a regular news conference.

"The German government regrets that the offer made by the Eurofighter consortium has, for now, not been accepted," he added.

Asked why he used the term "for now", he said experience showed that pursuing exclusive talks was no guarantee of a sale and contracts sometimes ended up going to a different bidder.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 01 Feb 2012 20:21

Fitch Statement : very Interesting:

Indian Jet Competition Shows Emerging Markets Importance : Fitch

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 01 Feb 2012 20:32

Ganesh_S wrote: and what about logistics nightmare on part of IAF ?

Lol, if u look at the current fleet and the past fleets, IAF got used to those nightmares

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 01 Feb 2012 20:34

First reactions on this thread, am happy that the competition is over and the IAF will get the best possible platform for the role that it wants to fulfill.

Ganesh_S · Post by **Ganesh_S** » 01 Feb 2012 20:37

jaladipc wrote:
Ganesh_S wrote: and what about logistics nightmare on part of IAF ?
Lol, if u look at the current fleet and the past fleets, IAF got used to those nightmares

In the past planes were sold by tons, now in kilos..spare part issues saar

member_22626 · Post by **member_22626** » 01 Feb 2012 20:45

What does the Rafale deal mean for India??

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/ndtv-s ... /222680?hp

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 01 Feb 2012 20:56

i dont think it is as yet safe to assume that rafale has won the deal

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 01 Feb 2012 20:56

ksiddhartharana wrote:What does the Rafale deal mean for India??

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/ndtv-s ... /222680?hp

The F-35 peddler still speaks HMV (His Master's Voice)...

...and then there are amazing engineering claims - A second engine increases the range of an aircraft!

To be expected from the information provider...

member_22635 · Post by **member_22635** » 01 Feb 2012 20:57

Prithwiraj wrote:
Bihanga wrote: I don't know how our government will be going to purchase this jets when we are running high fiscal and current account deficit.
yes ..that's a big concern...however..recent market sentiments have been positive...

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/mar ... 713672.cms

rupee-hits-highest-level-in-nearly-3-months

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 713827.cms

fii-inflows-cross-5-billion-in-january-scale-to-16-month-high

AFAIK the exchange rates have been fixed the day both parties were invited after shortlist. The prices were fixed as per the rates SBI Branch (closest to South Block) had placed. It was something in 48s or 49s.
http://www.stratpost.com/pricey-time-to ... ice-quotes

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 01 Feb 2012 20:57

All reasoning other than price at this stage is bull cr@p.

L1 negotiations are very transparent and clear. The Germans were more expensive than the French by $5 million per puppy.

PERIOD.

---That is not my concern.. My concern is only the corruption where kalmadiites linger.. see, A is priced 120M, and B is priced at 85M/each. Now this is well known that B will always win.. Furthermore, there is a big data on who owns some of Cassadian and Dassault. There is a common interest pool between these two Euro canard orgs, who could be back scratching with kalmadiites in desh.

The play money is 120-85= $25M per puppy. After 2G scam, I am forced to think this way.. bridging that gap could be a place where our men can play havoc.

L1 is a stage setter for all babudom men.. things can appear transparent, and our kalmadities can find a loophole even in a perfect super dense neutron star.

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 01 Feb 2012 21:15

Will-urge-India-to-reconsider-Dassault-Rafale-fighter-deal-British-Prime-Minister-David-Cameron

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 715539.cms

LONDON: British Prime Minister David Cameron said on Wednesday that India's decision to choose France's Dassault Aviation over Eurofighter as preferred bidder for a $15 billion war plane contract was disappointing and he would urge India to reconsider.

"Of course I will do everything I can, as I have already, to encourage the Indians to look at Typhoon (Eurofighter) because I think it is such a good aircraft," Cameron told parliament.

"The decision is obviously disappointing but it is about who the Indians have assessed as making the lowest bid and therefore asked to enter into further negotiations. They have not yet awarded the contract," he added.

He said he did not expect any job losses in Britain as a result of the decision and said "it doesn't rule out Typhoon for India."

"We must go on making the case. This (Eurofighter) is a superb aircraft with far better capabilities than Rafale and we will try and encourage the Indians to take that view," he added.

Rafale, made by Dassault, emerged on Tuesday as preferred bidder in the contest to supply India with 126 warplanes.

While exclusive talks are not a guarantee of sale, they deal a probable knockout blow to Rafale's chief rival in India, the Eurofighter Typhoon, a fighter plane developed by a consortium of four European aviation companies --the German and Spanish branches of EADS, Britain's BAE Systems and Italy's Finmeccanica.

Cameron's spokesman said Britain would look very carefully at why India took the decision to make Dassault the preferred bidder. "We will want to learn from that," he told reporters.

Talks between France and India over the fighter jet sale should be wrapped up within six to nine months, French government spokeswoman Valerie Pecresse said on Wednesday.

Three things you need to learn if you are an Indian Defence jingo--->patience patience and patience..

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 01 Feb 2012 21:29

The French are being abundantly cautious. Guarded statements, guaranteed French govt. support to assuage India, Dassult's Rafael web site had no mention of the MMRCA winner and didn't scream out like Typhoon web site, and now saying 6-9 months for negotiations so they don't give the impression they are forcing the Indian govt. The ball is now with the MoD and MoF, but this is the time to be vigilant and watch for corruption where the UK and France, or even unkil and Sweden may try to grease the skids.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 01 Feb 2012 21:29

France hopes to seal Indian jet fighter deal in 9 months.

France is confident that it can sign and seal a firm $12 billion deal to supply India with 126 Rafale fighter jets "within six to nine months", government spokeswoman Valerie Pecresse said on Wednesday.

The Rafale, a modern multi-role jet built by Dassault Aviation, has been selected by India as its preferred next generation interceptor, but details of the immense contract remain to be ironed out.

"It needs to be finalised, but the French offer is the most competitive and that has been recognised by our partners," Pecresse said, after President Nicolas Sarkozy hailed the deal at a cabinet meeting.

India announced on Tuesday it had selected the French firm Dassault over the Eurofighter consortium for "exclusive negotiations" as the preferred bidder in a contract estimated to be worth $12 billion.

If concluded, the contract would mark the first time the jet had found an export partner, despite being in service with the French military since 1998 and having proved itself in several conflicts.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 01 Feb 2012 21:32

MMRCA in retrospect:

Right from the beginning I sad that the MMRCA contest was for the French to "lose".More than the other aircraft,they had the "inside lane" as the IAF was very happy with the M-2000,had earlier wanted more of them,plus possessed several French missiles and used French avionics and key components from SAGEM,etc. in the SU-30MKI programme too.With the IAF signing up with Russia for the FGFA/PAK-FA 5th-gen fiighter,there was little point other than a much lesser acquisition cost for acquiring the MIG-35. Acquiring either US or Euro tech was the best way to widen the tech base of Indian aerospace ,especially when it came to AESA radars,NCW and engines.

With the impossible conditions attached to US weapon systems,the intrusive inspections,a track record of sanctions that crippled the LCA programme at a crucial stage,setting it back by a few years,the fact that it refused to abandon Pak,India's mortal enemy despite 9/11,26/11,etc.;the latest NATO report says that Pak is still supporting the Taliban (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... veals.html),that Pak operated F-16s and both US aircraft were of 3rd gen vintage with extra "makeup",the F-18SH quite expensive too,both US aircraft were handicapped right from the start.

The Gripen was a great little aircraft but too close to the LCA in size and style to be picked as it would endanger the LCA programme still in its developmental stage.Flying with a US engine made it also vulnerable to US sanctions.Veteran high ranking IAF air marshals too preferred a twin-engined aircraft given the high rate of bird strikes in the country,and he sudden emergence of Chinese agression (political,diplomatic and military),which was unforseen by the myopic political/MEA establishment.Waging an air war across Himalayan heights and operating from high alt. airstrips required powerful twin-engined aircraft preferably.

Rafale and Typhoon were the latest 4+ gen Eurocanards that were available and were justifiably shortlisted.But there was a concerted campaign to bring back the US through the back door. Shocked and stunned at being dumped into the dustbin,as the US mistakenly thought that the deal was theirs for the asking after the N-deal was signed,tried desperately touting the JSF as a superior bird .With the PAK-FA/FGFA prototypes already flying,deal signed and sealed with Russia,there was little point in even considering the JSF which was itself the subject of a raging controversy in the US over its delayed arrival,developmental problems and massive cost overruns,prompting even its closest allies like Britain to dump the STOVL version option and drastically reduce numbers of JSFs to be acquired.More importantly,if closest ally Britain could not get 5th-gen JSF tech from the US,fat chance non-ally India would get anything more than screwdriver tech ! The US had also planned a "three-tier" system for export versions depending upon how much moolah an ally had contributed to its development.So one would fly in first,second or third class seats depending upon the price you paid! Lastly,even the USAF were going to get their first sqd. only in 2019 and currently had no aircraft upon which their pilots could be trained.Some US politicos even wanted the whole or part of the project scrapped! To add insult to injury,despite all these well known facts, US diplomutts and military experts kept on touting the JSF through "megaphone" methods,even roping in Indian "cheer leaders",imagining that the IAF were ignoramuses and that a concerted PR campaign would make it dump the two finalists in favour of an aircraft that cannot better the air-to-air combat capability of a '70s vintage F-16!

Between the two in performance there was little to choose from.Both did fit the bill and were shortlisted with costs being the deciding factor...in principle.In reality however,it appears in retrospect,that the IAF had already made up its mind after the first technical evaluation.Dealing with one nation was so much more preferable to attending innumerable multi-national conferences required for each decision on EF upgrades etc., which had to be approved by each partner! This could prove a proverbial "Brussels" nightmare for the MOD later on.Open criticism from British MPs and others about the high cost of development and exorbitant price ,made the EF less attractive than the Rafale.,which had the edge but was equally expensive having been bought by no other nation! It was a regular loser in contests and despite good showings in battle in Afghanistan and Libya,there was doubt in certain quarters about future French commitment to its future development.

Despite the "tilt" in the Rafale's favour ,the French problem was how to swing in the final financial stakes such an expensive aircraft which had failed in many competitions in contributary part due to its high cost? The answer was to award the French a few lucrative contracts in advance,or assure them of the same,so that they could use the anticipated "bonus profits" to make an attractive bid.This they quietly did well knowing what the price-band the EF would be offered at,given their experience in previous contests where they had lost to the Euro-bird.

Thus the M-2000 upgrade was first signed,at exorbitant costs,even questioned by many within the IAF itself. This assured the French that they would have adequate financial bargaining power in the final bid.Deal 2 for MICA AAMs was also cleverly done,AFTER the shortlisting,so as not to excite and arouse suspicions.A masterstroke! They well knew that it would come through,and at what cost,and factored in this additional bargaining chip.The EF camp knew that the French would give a good discount as they were more desperate than even the EF nations,who were sure of more orders as an interim buy,for nations who had opted for the JSF,whose final costs still could not be determined and much delayed, thanks to developmental technical problems,and now expected to arrive in European colours only in 2020+.They felt assured from the warm reception their heads received when in India and from the keen interest being shown in the EF and deliberate leaks in the media that they were "in front",lulled them into a false sense of belief in winning the contest on both technical and cost factors.Their discounted price was therefore also attractive but they never estimated how much lower the French would actually go as "deal-2" for MICA missiles had not yet been signed.

Despite being lower,even after the bids were opened,the frantic scuttling between Europe and India by reps of both sides, showed how close a call the deal actually was,but the "inside lane" that the Rafale had was the vital "edge".If political considerations too played a vital part,the French were up there right at the top with UN reforms,N-plants and N-tech to sweeten the deal. All-in-all,a monumental and famous victory for the French ,as they defeated not just the Russians and Swedes,but also the all-mighty US of A,which had the GOI in its pocket in many ways. Most deliciously of all they defeated "perfidious Albion" ,with whom Pres.Sarko had just had the most inelegant of public spats with his opposite number David Cameron at an EU summit.The equally public spat between Britan and Germany over the fall of the Euro did nothing to advance their case for seamless multi-national "cooperation" of the EF's diverse partenrs. David C'ameron's dismay and desperate plea to the GOI to "reconsider" the myriad virtues of his "daughter" offered in marriage and spurned by the "groom", indicates how much the decision is smarting for the Eurofighter nations,especially the British.
Gen.Dupleix must be raising a glass of "champers" wherever he is ,not forgetting another Frenchman,a certain Napoleon Bonaparte!

The last throw of the dice from the losing encampments will be trying to influence the Indian Fin. Min. to delay or dump the deal on the basis of the huge sums involved in acquiring it.There's "many a slip 'tween the cup and the lip",but saying it for perhaps the last time,"the deal is for the French to lose" and I doubt very much if they will let it slip out of their hands this time.Too much rides on this deal for France,not least the outcome of the next French presidential elections.Asterix and Obelix have defeated not just the multi-national Roman army and the Cossacks,but also "Hagar the Horrible" and last but not least."Micky Mouse.Donald Duck and Goofy" !

Akshut · Post by **Akshut** » 01 Feb 2012 21:37

srai wrote:You will notice that they are all in that 36 months delivery timeline once contracts are signed and actual orders are placed.

Thanks!

yantra · Post by **yantra** » 01 Feb 2012 21:37

ksiddhartharana wrote:What does the Rafale deal mean for India??

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/ndtv-s ... /222680?hp

I am surprised the neither Vishnu/ Air Marshal Ahluwalia mentioned FGFA! It is a 5th gen fighter India has invested in - much better than 'buying' it from the US.

It is another matter that F-35 is neither ready or is seeing light at the end of the tunnel - allies including Australia, are seriously re-thinking. And, a 5th Gen fighter is not the only one we really want against China.

And, not surprisingly it shows Ajai in very poor taste - brazenly peddling F-35, which is not ready, and a poor argument making a case for a 5th gen!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Feb 2012 21:46

Mannu J wrote:Still 3-4 years for the first squadron to come? From the news report it seems that ToT to HAL will start only after mid-2015. Why this delay of 3-4 years in between? I can't think of any possible logical reason for this incumbency on part of the GoI. Any learned person here can explain this? The first request by IAF was way back in 1998. 15 years to sign a deal, and still 4 years for planes to reach the force.

Even if we bought it outright and signed a deal for 20 to be delivered ASAP (no manufacture in India) - it could be at least 2 years before we get it because the order has to be placed for materials, existing orders completed, modifications requested by India made planned and implemented and he plane then manufactured and supplied to India. Even after the first 2-4 reach India the IAF will need 2 more years to get to know the plane and refine the way it will be used, assuming that technician and pilot training has already occurred in France during manufacture.

If we have to manufacture as well, then HAL needs to create the space for it (separate from Russian or British stuff). Machinery has to be ordered fro HAL in France and shipped and installed here, engineers and workers trained etc and finally parts have to be pre-made in France and shipped here so people can get an idea about screwdriver assembly before actual manufacture of parts from raw material. 3-4 years is fast.

It will be 2016 before the IAF gets its teeth into the Rafale, provided the deal goes through as planned. Th reason the IAF made the first request in 1998 is that they know how long it takes. They do not work with their eyes closed and make last minute requests except in an emergency.

anirban_aim · Post by **anirban_aim** » 01 Feb 2012 21:56

Ajatshatru wrote:Was just watching the NDTV programme.... a certain person in the programme peddling the F-35 deal and then, later, his views on the ToT....would even a layperson watching the programme take him seriously, after listening to the views of this man?

Pranay wrote:
ksiddhartharana wrote:What does the Rafale deal mean for India??

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/ndtv-s ... /222680?hp
The F-35 peddler still speaks HMV (His Master's Voice)...

...and then there are amazing engineering claims - A second engine increases the range of an aircraft!

To be expected from the information provider...

yantra wrote:
ksiddhartharana wrote:What does the Rafale deal mean for India??

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/ndtv-s ... /222680?hp
I am surprised the neither Vishnu/ Air Marshal Ahluwalia mentioned FGFA! It is a 5th gen fighter India has invested in - much better than 'buying' it from the US.

It is another matter that F-35 is neither ready or is seeing light at the end of the tunnel - allies including Australia, are seriously re-thinking. And, a 5th Gen fighter is not the only one we really want against China.

And, not surprisingly it shows Ajai in very poor taste - brazenly peddling F-35, which is not ready, and a poor argument making a case for a 5th gen!

Col. Shook Law has lost it!!!!

Badar · Post by **Badar** » 01 Feb 2012 21:59

Finally some visible progress on MMRCA!
Phase three to start now. Shields up, standby to evade MoF/EADS torpedoes.
BTW, I still haven't given up hope for the Gripen in IAF colors.

I am puzzled as to why people are so eager to resort to hidden reasons or conspiracy theories to explain the deal? Why can't it be exactly what it is claimed to be - a technical face off followed by least cost bid? People who extrapolate this deal to have side effects on nuclear tech, access to future tech etc are uninformed or delusional. If we are lucky we will get exactly what we paid for - nothing more. You want more? You will have to pay through the nose separately for that - bringing up "Defense-Deal-X" will only serve to bring up derisive snicker from the French/British or whoever we are in negotiation with.

Someone asked what will Rafale be bringing to the party that IAF currently doesn't have? Why not more Super-30 rather than Rafale? Ignoring industrial, economic, geo-political and interplanetary arguments:

Strategic : Source diversification - many eggs in many baskets. Leaves IAF less vulnerable to potential political, economic or other downturns/extortion from the primary source nation. IAF has long followed this approach Fulcrum/Mirage, Bahadur/Shamsher etc.

Operational : Rafale will will though allow IAF to do the same stuff MKI does, but in a different way. The Su-30MKI might be adequate as a force majeure over Pakistan, but less credible wrt China. In those denser air defense environs the Rafale's discretion *may* prove to be the better than the MKI's valour. (This explanation worked for my nephew: MKI is like a cheetah, you can see it coming but there is little you can do to escape an encounter with it. In contrast the Rafale is akin to an ambush predator like a Tiger. So no new capability additions, but whole new ways of skinning the cat).

Tactical : Rafale will be IAF's first run in with a semi-stealthy design. Hands on extended operation with the Rafale will allow the IAF to understand, acquire and practice the realities of air combat with LO in play. It will enrich IAF understanding of practical aspects of stealth - both its limitations and strengths. We will learn not only how to optimally use stealth but also to figure out what it takes to counter it. We might spend a good part of the decade working out the optimal interplay of AEW, MKI and Rafale synergy.

Institutional : Every major aircraft producer has its own take on stealth and depending upon our experiences we will likely come up with our own set of priorities on what is crucial and what is merely desirable. I expect the Rafale experience will have a significant impact on what we expect and demand from future indigenous LO combat aircraft/UAVs etc. Future programs will be less of adaption of existing vendor solutions to our needs (PAK-FA -> FGFA).

PS: Ajay Shukla on NDTV, what a tool.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 01 Feb 2012 22:04

Vishnu/ Air Marshal Ahluwalia mentioned FGFA! It is a 5th gen fighter India has invested in

FGFA is still a big lottery in the future

Who knows what will happen

one can pray

As for shukla

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 01 Feb 2012 22:05

all i can say is that the MKI (Strike-Rambha) and Rafale combo is one of the most potent air forces being deployed anywhere right now. back it up with awacs, tankers and hopefully some jstars capability and eventually FGFA - and we are becoming a very big gorrilla

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Feb 2012 22:07

Philip, Yes all those factors matter but are secondary. The L1 price was offered way before all those deals were in the making. Above all the L1 price was the deal clincher.

Also contrast the attitude of the Brits and the Germans to the decision. The latter are taking it in stride while the former are appealing to emotion. India gave enough subsidy to UK aircraft industry from Vampire to Hawk.
Enough is enough.

bahdada · Post by **bahdada** » 01 Feb 2012 22:10

My buddies in Quebec(Montreal) seem to be ultra-enthusiastic about this deal. They imagine that we will be outta the Anglo orbit.

One can just laugh.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 01 Feb 2012 22:12

Ajay Shukla ex IA --- I told you so.

Danell · Post by **Danell** » 01 Feb 2012 22:13

bahdada wrote:
Chandragupta wrote:Oh lordy. Any of you read the comment sections of those French dailies?
I'd advise using Chrome or Google translate if your Francais isn't up to par.
http://www.liberation.fr/economie/01022 ... s-a-l-inde
Sacrebleu!

Sri wrote:http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/ ... _3234.html
Most french comments on the deal are negative... I think it is more to do with unpopularity of Mr Surkozy and Mr Dassualt than anything else. Main gripe being production in India. Cost is substantially lower that what was offered to other countries and of course the fact that announcement came so close to elections.

No worries, Le Monde and especially Liberation are leftist newpapers which strongly oppose Sarkozy's policy. If later India and France reach an agreement for, for example, 80 additional Rafale when the candidate of the left is in power, the same guys will be very positive

. Their great fear is that the deal with India (and others expected with UAE or Brazil) could improve the current popularity of Sarkozy, 3 months before the vote.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 01 Feb 2012 22:28

Ramanna true,I also said that the Rafale was the best bet for us just before the winner was announced too,and still feel that way,delighted that we have chosen well-a proven fighter available also in a naval variant should the IN also require it.
But "forewarned is forearmed"! Knowing that one is going to get a few lucrative deals (in private and in advance) gives it an edge when quoting in the final bid.In previous contests,extraneous non-technical factors apart from price shot down the Rafale,particularly US armtwisting its allies.I am simply amazed at the attitude of the US and its desi "loudspeakers and touts" who imagine that with the overwhelming facts available to anyone in the globe about the JSF being in dire straits (see the "JSF-Turkey or Talisman" thread),would expect India to be seduced by an aircraft that has so many problems to overcome,not least an elastic cost! To still expect that India can be armtwisted and whipped into shape and obey like an erstwhile "ni**er" ,underlines the nauseating Yanqui attitude towards the so-called "turd world",where they think you can buy,sell or rent their leaders like Pakis.

Sad luck Tiffy,but you were a little too expensive for Indian pockets.The number of "owners" also would've made a significant difference in the final estimation,even if it was a "dead heat".

It also appears that the heralding of the "auld alliance","entente cordiale" was much misplaced!

PS:Badar,The SU-30MKI/upgraded SUs have two extra assets that the Rafale cannot deliver on,no disrespect to it,the ability to carry the 200KM RVV-8D AAM and the ASM version of Brahmos! When the Super-Flanker being developed for the IAF comes into service,the combination of both SU and Rafale (even now) will be quite a handful for any air force to overcome.....let alone the time when the FGFA is also in service.The IAF appears to have a very exciting time ahead.

PPS:I wonder why few are stating a key diff. between the two,SU and Raffy."Two-seat" Sukhoi and "single-seat" Rafale.One pilot less,helps ease the manpower shortage too,plus one family less to support in the financial estimates too.

aditya.agd · Post by **aditya.agd** » 01 Feb 2012 22:35

Shukla ji

Katrina is the winner.

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 01 Feb 2012 22:40

Badar wrote:
Someone asked what will Rafale be bringing to the party that IAF currently doesn't have? Why not more Super-30 rather than Rafale? Ignoring industrial, economic, geo-political and interplanetary arguments:
<snip>

Very good post, Badar.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 01 Feb 2012 22:41

some body tell the ex mil folks that we can afford to skip a generation, and focus on the 6th gen fighters.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 01 Feb 2012 22:45

Phillip & Badar +400 lovely posts.

Septimus has, in his post, claimed that the Tiffy was better technically. But, my knowladge is contrary: Raffy was better. Be that as it may, at least I sit back with the satisfaction that we have the best of the lot at a lower price. While I sip my wine.