Indian Army: News & Discussion

[habal]

I may sound "politically incorrect here", but still. For such people a slap on the face generally makes a difference. It breaks the ego (and that is for pretty much any one I feel, police man, common man or army man).

If you entrust 'a man without ego' as your protector, do you know what happens. It's very common in India, he will sell out whom he protects to the highest bidder, and pocket the change without batting an eyelid. So in a force dedicated to defend, ego and morale are everything. If the 'protected' can not maintain the dignity and ego of the 'protector' then just say goodbye to a bird called freedom.

I sincerely hope the armymen get hold of these bunch of corrupt Pune cops, rub their faces in dirt and drag them through the streets of Pune inorder to show them who they can mess with and who they shouldn't. Ofcourse there is no hurry. Revenge is a dish best served cold. Let them puff out their chests and soften up with the false braggado, they just achieved.

[sum]

Snippet on Broadsword blog:

Antony gets a week to eat crow!
Just back from the Supreme Court. In 40 minutes of riveting legal drama in a courtroom packed to the rafters, Mr Justice Lodha and Mr Justice Gokhale demonstrated why India's higher judiciary is such a powerful force in this country.

Unmoved by a forceful performance from the government's legal stars --- Attorney General Goolam Vahanvati and Solicitor General Rohinton Nariman, who argued in tandem --- the Court has given the Defence Ministry a week to let the Supreme Court know whether the MoD would prefer that Mr Antony's decision on General VK Singh's petition be quashed, and the MoD would consider his statutory complaint afresh... or would the MoD prefer that the Court hears the chief's petition under Article 32 of the Constitution.

The Court made it clear that Antony's decision of 30th December 2011, rejecting the Army Chief's statutory complaint, violated the principles of natural justice. Antony's rejection was based on the Attorney General's legal opinion; that same Attorney General had also provided opinion that informed the MoD's earlier rejection (on July 2011) of the chief's request for his date of birth to be recognised as 1951, not 1950. The court's legal question was: How could the Attorney General provide the legal backstop for Antony's 30th December decision, when it was the same Attorney General's legal opinion that was being questioning in Gen Singh's statutory complaint? There was a clear conflict of interest here, observed the Court.

The Court also opposed the government's argument that the case should go to the Armed Forces Tribunal. When the chief has just four months of service left, the Court asked, why delay? And any appeal against the AFT's decision would come up before the Supreme Court again, the judges observed.

Scoreline at the end of Day 1: Vijay Kumar Singh --- 1; Union of India --- 0

[nelson]

^^^^@Sachin
The most ambitious was/is the person who is next in line for post of COAS.
The promised reconciliation was to update the Army List with Military Secretary, with his DoB (1951) in official records which is with Adjutant General.
The only residual service requirement in Army which is a constraint is that of Army Commander. A Lt Gen who is to be appointed has Army Commander must have two years residual service. If one does not meet it he is superceded. Case in point is that of Lt Gen Syed Ata Hasnain. No one could have performed better than him as GOC 15 Corps amidst all the turmoil in which he was posted there. But he doesn't have two years service left in him. So he spend the left over service as a PSO, may be.

[Sachin]

This video clip and media the coverage, has been seen by 35,000 officers of the Army. What impact would it have on them? Would it not demoralise them for the justice or lack of it in the treatment meted out to their fellow officer.

Sorry, if the army folks gets demoralised because the media showed one of their chaps in poor light, then I dont know what to say . All Pakistan Army needs to do is to repeatedly telecast this clipping.

Once an Army officer has introduced himself as one and shown his i-card the next logical step is to issue a challan if he accepts to take one or take it to the court

And I presume that during this the Army officer has the right to get into argument, throw around the gazetted rank status and start a fracas.

A recordable censure/ reprimand can do the damage.

If the Army's own court of enquiry finds that this fellow acted too smart, why do we have to blame any one? (including journalists or the police). Or is that thanks to this media coverage Army would have to show that it has taken some action? Which makes me also think aloud, that no such actions are taken provided the media does not highlight it .

I sincerely hope the armymen get hold of these bunch of corrupt Pune cops, rub their faces in dirt and drag them through the streets of Pune inorder to show them who they can mess with and who they shouldn't.

If you have problems with the police, or police corruption try to sort that out by your own ways and means . Or do you think Army is a force of goondas who accept a request from you and do the needful? Dont show your frusturations with the police here by asking Army to do the dirty work .

[habal]

If you have problems with the police, or police corruption try to sort that out by your own ways and means . Or do you think Army is a force of goondas who accept a request from you and do the needful? Dont show your frusturations with the police here by asking Army to do the dirty work .

But you are free to promote your fascination with the police force though. ehh. You are basically victim to a particular strain of small town mentality from rural midlands where a bolice can do no wrong. I know where such a strain of thought comes from. In those parts, the simple folks do look up to people in uniform and people in authority especially if they have an ability to exercise that authority on their day-to-day lives. Many movies also indicate and reinforce this child-like fascination and an almost Oedipus-like fixation with the police, which someone from outside that area can only laugh at. Well, it's enough to say such a perception isn't shared in other parts of India. Only exposure of a larger India can cure such infant-isms. There are always those who are good, even amongst the evil and also amongst Pakis. But when you take the measure of a whole organization, it's interaction with the common public (exclude most of midlands and TN), the style of interaction etc we can find an organization that still serves under the shadow of the British rule where Indians were meant to be repressed and were treated as coolies.

Slapping somebody at whim or when uncomfortable with the tone & tenor of the argument is not part of the mandate of a law-abiding and citizenry oriented police force.

[Sachin]

His boss, the then chief in 2008 and MoD , would have set aside his name from the panel of officers being considered for promotion to the post Army Commander, had VKS not accepted the pre-condition

The pre-condition would be that the Date of Birth would be May 10, 1950 whether Gen. Singh likes it or not. And am I correct that the chances of one becoming a COAS is bleak, if he had not held the appointment as a Lt.Gen commanding an Army? (GOC-in-C ??). So if this DoB had not been changed to 1950, Gen.Singh would not even make into the panel of officers who can be posted as Army Commander? Which in turn would lead to a case that he would not become COAS as well?

The promised reconciliation was to update the Army List with Military Secretary, with his DoB (1951) in official records which is with Adjutant General.

But is this the correct procedure? By force or by threat of screwing up a career Gen.V.K Singh's date of birth is recorded as May 10, 1950. Some one else (who??) uses this in preparing a list of officers eligible for promotions as Army Commanders. And if I am not mistaken Gen. Singh did get elevated to this rank. And as soon as these promotions are awarded, the promise was that dates would be reverted back to May 10, 1951 (which no one did).

The most ambitious was/is the person who is next in line for post of COAS.

And he seems to be totally in the sidelines . So is it that the next person in line, raked up this issue of date of birth, which he felt would have forced Gen.V.K Singh out of the chair, and he moves in? .

Only thing I am now confused is this whole idea of changing of the date of birth at the time of promotions, with a proposal to rectify at a later date. The GoI also seems to be hanging on that argument, as to why a person should use one DoB for promotions and another for retirement.

This for sure is becoming a court room drama... .

[nelson]

This video clip and media the coverage, has been seen by 35,000 officers of the Army. What impact would it have on them? Would it not demoralise them for the justice or lack of it in the treatment meted out to their fellow officer.

Sorry, if the army folks gets demoralised because the media showed one of their chaps in poor light, then I dont know what to say . All Pakistan Army needs to do is to repeatedly telecast this clipping.

That is what they(Pakistan or whosoever is the enemy of the state) are doing. Getting the Indian media to run such campaigns against Army at an alarming rate, making false propaganda to demoralise them. Psy ops.

Once an Army officer has introduced himself as one and shown his i-card the next logical step is to issue a challan if he accepts to take one or take it to the court

And I presume that during this the Army officer has the right to get into argument, throw around the gazetted rank status and start a fracas.

How do you think the policemen would have reacted if it was an IPS officer instead?

A recordable censure/ reprimand can do the damage.

If the Army's own court of enquiry finds that this fellow acted too smart, why do we have to blame any one? (including journalists or the police). Or is that thanks to this media coverage Army would have to show that it has taken some action? Which makes me also think aloud, that no such actions are taken provided the media does not highlight it .

He will not take punishment if he is proved innocent. But he would have spent considerable time in getting this off his back, which would indirectly affect his career.

[nelson]

^^@Sachin
The promise by DK to VKS was perfunctory in nature, and IMO VKS knew this then too. He is forced to clutch it as the last straw against the so called "acceptances" that he had given.
IMO, the gentleman at the sidelines was not the one who raked up the issue. I t was done by JJ and DK, ostensibly at the behest of their political masters(PM). Now, I have used this term "political masters" for the umpteenth time in this thread. You have got connect the dots, as yet.
There is no need to confuse oneself with "proposal for reconciliation" because there is nothing on record. At the best, it was personal assurance given verbally by the then Army Chief to his main Strike Corps Commander.

[nelson]

If this DoB case in SC goes on , in its self-determined trajectory, we would see an array of govt/military functionaries(retired and serving) in the witness box.
Three army chiefs.
Two adjutant generals.
At least three military secretaries.
Defence Secretary.
Joint Secretary(G/A).
Additional/Deputy Military Secretary X.

[Sachin]

The promise by DK to VKS was perfunctory in nature, and IMO VKS knew this then too. He is forced to clutch it as the last straw against the so called "acceptances" that he had given.

I did not want to state this at the very first, but the fact that he did admit that he allowed the DoB to be changed in good faith, did make me feel that some thing is fishy here. A senior most Army officer, will he be so dumb as to allow some body to change the date of birth, which would be an important detail? Off course, I did not take into consideration that he may have been forced to accept this proposal. But then I feel that person who made this plan should be pulled up and asked why exactly he did this.

It was done by JJ and DK, ostensibly at the behest of their political masters(PM).

How feasible it would be to ask JJ and DK to testify in court, and give an explanation as to why he came up with the idea of changing the date of birth.

If this DoB case in SC goes on , in its self-determined trajectory, we would see an array of govt/military functionaries(retired and serving) in the witness box.

We may also need to see how much the politicians would like to rake this up. Dont know what is the involvement of the INC politicians in this. That may decide how much of fight the government would put up in this case.

My personal opinion. Changing date of births in order to get into (or awarded) more senior ranks is not an ethical practice. Here it seems to have happened. Truth should come out on why such a decision to change date of birth was taken, and by whom.

[Sanku]

So if my boss asks me to write that my age is 1000000 years and I write it, it becomes my age?

Such "affidavits" have bearing only if "real evidence" does not exist or does not contradict it.

If anything, that is even more grounds of "violation of natural justice" -- so there is already one count, there will probably be two more counts.

VKS is opening the box and letting light stream in to expose the filth -- and Congress is squirming.

[nelson]

The promise by DK to VKS was perfunctory in nature, and IMO VKS knew this then too. He is forced to clutch it as the last straw against the so called "acceptances" that he had given.

My personal opinion. Changing date of births in order to get into (or awarded) more senior ranks is not an ethical practice. Here it seems to have happened. Truth should come out on why such a decision to change date of birth was taken, and by whom.

I reiterate that the question of changing DoB doesn't arise. The DoB has always been xx May 1951, except for the following.
UPSC application where DoB was corrected to xx May 1951 in 1966 itself.
Army List prepared in 1973 and maintained by Military Secretary.

In 2006, "Someone or few" used this inconsequential mistake as a tool to craft the succession plan of the Army well in advance. They banked on the belief that VKS can either be bought over by a gubernatorial offering at the end of his term in 2012 or can be bulldozed into accepting a retirement in oblivion. They failed to foresee the situation they are in today.

[chaanakya]

The government maintains that the Gen. General V.K. Singh was promoted on the last three occasions, including as the Chief of Army Staff, with 1950 taken as his the year of birth.
Does the date of birth have any significance when it comes to promotions? If yes, then wont it be right to determine the seniority (and thus the retirement age) based on this date?

All his promotions up to Brig level (added later Upto Lt Gen in view of MS letter posted by nelson )were based on 1951. This issue was raked up in 2006 only.
DOB would have become a determining factor in promotion only in respect of residual service. He would otherwise have been eligible irrespective of his DOB. So essentially , the answer would be a big NO.

Further , what is the locus-standi of MOD or any authority to ask individual to accept a specific DOB? The most Govt could ask is to produce documentary evidence in support of 1950 or 1951 in order to reconcile since it had two sets of records.

[Sachin]

So if my boss asks me to write that my age is 1000000 years and I write it, it becomes my age?

No. But if I read Gen.V.K Singh's statement in court he himself states that he allowed the YOB to be made 1950. Fine, I take ASPuar's noting that he may have had no other choice considering the way an Army generally works.

Next point. A senior serving officer like Gen.V.K Singh would have known the implications (+/-) of changing a basic detail like YOB. This is not like some parent making a small correction in the DOB so that his kid can join the school a year earlier. Fine, we can leave that point aside as again he can say that he just gave in or his career was screwed.

VKS is opening the box and letting light stream in to expose the filth -- and Congress is squirming.

I have no love lost for the Congress . But I would certainly like to know, the details about this "changing of date of birth" business. The GoI has been repeatedly saying that the last two promotions which Gen.V.K Singh received was because of the date of birth taken as May 10, 1950. He did not make a fuzz then, but when it came to retirement time the date changed to 1951. So is it not like stating that "okay for my promotions I am fine with having xyz as the DoB, but when it comes to Retirement it should become abc?". Does that not show the COAS also in bad light? That he went ahead with this when promotions came, but made a problem when it is time to hang up the boots?

I am all for exposing this entire case in the courts. It would be better if the country knows how an important thing like choosing the COAS is done. If it exposes any malpractise from the Army side, let it come out. And if the INC Govt. also is involved, all the better.

[abhijitm]

why don't supreme court order to do simple dna test of the General to find out his age, then make it official and close the chapter.

[nelson]

^ Funny, there is a letter signed by the Military Secretary who retired few days back, which says that the promotions to the ranks of Brig and then to Maj Gen and then to Lt Gen were also done on the basis of xx May 1951 as DoB. Ah, here it is...
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/search?q= ... etary+nair
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/--b_Lo1lzxPI/T ... etter1.jpg

[nelson]

^If someone can edit the image to be smaller, please.

[chaanakya]

The fact that a policeman of subordinate rank, struck a superior, gazetted government officer is in itself shocking.

Absolutely.The policemen should have behaved properly.And the officers also should have paid without arguing and showing their authority to the Man on duty. Its like clapping by both hands.

but, in my view, it is a minor issue blown out of proportion. It is time to stop discussing this matter.

[Rahul M]

why don't supreme court order to do simple dna test of the General to find out his age, then make it official and close the chapter.

may be because dna tests can't do that ?

[chaanakya]

Okay. Would wait to see if the previous Army chief also gets summoned by the court. Because coercing a junior officer to change his DOB, for what ever reasons is certainly not right. Dont know if the court has in its mandate to find out why the previous Army chief took such a decision.

No he will not be summoned by SC. It is for the Govt to state the facts based on the records.In such matters witnesses are not summoned, its all based on written pleadings and documents.

[Sachin]

In 2006, "Someone or few" used this inconsequential mistake as a tool to craft the succession plan of the Army well in advance.

This is what I was looking for . So it is basically a case where things were slightly manipulated to ensure that a specific set of officers reached at a specific level, at a specific point in time . And hoping that they would be pliable to compulsions when ever that moment came.

They banked on the belief that VKS can either be bought over by a gubernatorial offering at the end of his term in 2012 or can be bulldozed into accepting a retirement in oblivion.

Thank you sir for replying to me point by point. This case should get openly debated in the court.
1. The people who came up with the "succession plan" needs to be summoned. Let them openly state, why they did it.
2. If politicians are involved all the better.
3. Was Gen. V.K Singh a true victim of this game plan, or was he aware of this all the while. And he sprung a surprise at the very last moment (when the planners thought he would just vanish ).

During this whole time frame it was INC in power. So now I understand the political dilemma as well .

[chaanakya]

In the case of VKS he had that residual service with both the DoB.

Then what advantage does one get in changing the DoB? Is it that say a Maj.Gen with 3 years of service to go, would be placed higher place in the panel than a Maj.Gen with two years more service?

Not like this. It would be that all officers having minimum residual service of two years would be placed in the panel in order of their seniority , irrespective of their DOB. VKS was senior most in the panel.

[Sanku]

No. But if I read Gen.V.K Singh's statement in court he himself states that he allowed the YOB to be made 1950. Fine, I take ASPuar's noting that he may have had no other choice considering the way an Army generally works.

Next point. A senior serving officer like Gen.V.K Singh would have known the implications (+/-) of changing a basic detail like YOB.

Sachin-Saar, I think you are missing a fundamental point. The YoB was never changed. A forced "affidavit", that too completely inconsistent with all legal documentation can in no way be construed as "change of YoB".

All that we can say is that some one arm-twisted Gen VK Singh into writing a meaningless acceptance note to a meaningless order.

YoB was never changed, and remains 1951. What only remained was to reconcile the wrong records, instead of doing which, the lie was flogged further.

[Sachin]

No he will not be summoned by SC. It is for the Govt to state the facts based on the records.In such matters witnesses are not summoned, its all based on written pleadings and documents.

Okay. I remember reading some thing about SC being the appellate court etc., and generally at this stage only documentary evidence and the previous judgements (passed by lower courts) get reviewed. But can this case be passed down to a lower court which can reopen the case and summon witnesses?

It would be that all officers having minimum residual service of two years would be placed in the panel in order of their seniority , irrespective of their DOB. VKS was senior most in the panel.

Any idea on how the senior most part is decided? Is it by their date of commissioning, their date of birth, their general service records etc.? Looks like Date of Birth matters, as other wise the vested interests will not try using this point to further their agenda. If DoB does not matter, I feel that people who came up with this "succesion plan" would take a different route, off say messing up the ACR etc.

All that we can say is that some one arm-twisted Gen VK Singh into writing a meaningless acceptance note to a meaningless order.

Point taken. All the more power to Gen.V.K Singh to get these people who "arm twisted" him to face the music. I know it generally does not work this way in the Army, but such things needs to be exposed.

Let me be quite honest, I have heard numerous stories about how top Military ranks in India are only acheived by people who have strong political backings. This is pretty much is proving the same.

[chaanakya]

No he will not be summoned by SC. It is for the Govt to state the facts based on the records.In such matters witnesses are not summoned, its all based on written pleadings and documents.

Okay. I remember reading some thing about SC being the appellate court etc., and generally at this stage only documentary evidence and the previous judgements (passed by lower courts) get reviewed. But can this case be passed down to a lower court which can reopen the case and summon witnesses?

No Sachin. In such cases there is no summoning of witnesses. there are only and only written pleadings and documents. There would be hearings when both side would argue case extensively. SC would ask questions to clarify , if needed.
Case could have been sent to AFT, but even there , no witnesses would be summoned.
The only problem is that in Protocol Army Chief is higher that members and chairman of AFT. Same case is with Judges of HC. So I doubt that SC would send this case to AFT.
In any case it is a Writ Petition under Art 32 and SC would hear it a original petition without referring to any other court or tribunal.
I can tell you this with 100% certainty.

[Katare]

quote="Katare"
If they did try to intimidate officers, I'll love to see their a$$es getting fried and hanged to dry by SC on Feb 3rd.


Hmm. A lot of confidence placed on the SC. Somehow I don't have that confidence.

Me too.

Well?? Let's put it this way, you can say some time it feels good to be wrong!!!

[nelson]

^Yes, but sometimes only

[abhijitm]

why don't supreme court order to do simple dna test of the General to find out his age, then make it official and close the chapter.

may be because dna tests can't do that ?

hmmm may be you are right. I thought Kasab's age was determined during the court trial but seems you cannot find out exact age by medical tests.

[Sachin]

In any case it is a Writ Petition under Art 32 and SC would hear it a original petition without referring to any other court or tribunal.
I can tell you this with 100% certainty.

So how about SC summoning witnesses and hearing this afresh? I may be asking for the moon, but are there any chances?

[chaanakya]

Any idea on how the senior most part is decided? Is it by their date of commissioning, their date of birth, their general service records etc.? Looks like Date of Birth matters, as other wise the vested interests will not try using this point to further their agenda. If DoB does not matter, I feel that people who came up with this "succesion plan" would take a different route, off say messing up the ACR etc.

Yeah. First of all all the posts Col. and Above are Selection post. Till Lt Col post , seniority is decided by the merit list at the time of commissioning ( Ranking at the time of passing out from IMA ). Thereafter , it would be the merit order of selection as recommended by the Departmental Promotion Committee.Generally, the Panel would be drawn based on existing seniority. DPC would consider and make recommendations in order of merit. That merit list becomes seniority for the officers in promoted grade. The panel for next promotion will be drawn based on the seniority of feeder category. But, Seniority in promoted grade would depend on merit order recommended by DPC ( in this case it would be CCA). Normally, seniority would not be disturbed by DPC unless junior officers are exceptionally outstanding, according to his service records and Confidential reports etc, and if DPC felt that he should be placed higher in merit than senior officer for the next promoted grade.

DOB is relevant for residual service. DOB is also relevant if there is any succession plan. Probably, if VKS did not give that Signal of acceptance, under duress and in the belief of getting it reconciled, he could have been overlooked for Commander Post so that he would not be eligible for COAS post . But he had more number of years of service so he would have to have been overlooked for many DPCs which would be troublesome and involved more manipulations.

As for COAS post CCA could have superseded him and there would have been no legal problem Public outcry notwithstanding.

But then it would have been obvious that CCA wants BS as COAS instead of him getting it in normal manipulative way. But then if a person junior Lt Gen got selected as COAS by Superseding vks then he would have retired only after BS retirement and I belive that promotion to VKS with his DOB as 1950 forced was the only option for conniving Generals and politicians and babuz.

[chaanakya]

In any case it is a Writ Petition under Art 32 and SC would hear it a original petition without referring to any other court or tribunal.
I can tell you this with 100% certainty.

So how about SC summoning witnesses and hearing this afresh? I may be asking for the moon, but are there any chances?

I hate to disappoint you being the almighty bredator on BRF.

But its a FAT chance and if it happens would be event of historical proportion.

In ,Habeas Coppus, yes this could happen.

But this is certiorified mandamus as I anticipated so would not happen.

[ramana]

THE SC has done the following:

1) Asserted the righ tof acitizen to approach the SC for redress
2) Asserted why the Army Chief cannot seek redress from Armed Force Tribunal comrpised of his juniors for there is conflict of interest.
3) Gave the govt seven days to seek a honorable way to settle the matter without involving the court judgment. They leave little to imagine what that will be.


------------

I urge all posters not to use emoticons when discussing the DOB issue.

[Yayavar]

Any idea on how the senior most part is decided? Is it by their date of commissioning, their date of birth, their general service records etc.? Looks like Date of Birth matters, as other wise the vested interests will not try using this point to further their agenda. If DoB does not matter, I feel that people who came up with this "succesion plan" would take a different route, off say messing up the ACR etc.

Seniority is based on date of commissioning. DoB matters in terms of retirement and thereby effects who succeeds.

[chaanakya]

Any idea on how the senior most part is decided? Is it by their date of commissioning, their date of birth, their general service records etc.? Looks like Date of Birth matters, as other wise the vested interests will not try using this point to further their agenda. If DoB does not matter, I feel that people who came up with this "succesion plan" would take a different route, off say messing up the ACR etc. Yes, DK would have been writing vks ACR. JJ would also have written some.
.

Seniority is based on date of commissioning. DoB matters in terms of retirement and thereby effects who succeeds. yeah thats correct.

viv, it is a batch commissioning and all on the same day. So there is no different date of commissioning except in some circumstances. So it is the rank decided by IMA after completion of the course. Same system is followed elsewhere. Even in LBSNAA this has been introduced and UPSC rank holds little significance for newer batches.

[Katare]

Common guys these were couple of hot head yong guys got in fight with cops that happens all the time. Only time pandoos get on the wrong side of the stick is when they screw with army folks. So I don't really feel too much of sympathy for them. They beat up all kind of innocent people openly all the time, once in a while what goes along comes along. Minor incedent not worth the discussion worth a few pages at BRF IMO.

[Surya]

The government says that documents with the Army's official record-keeper, the Adjutant General, list 1950, and it is these documents that were used to give General Singh several promotions, including the last one that made him the head of the Army.

Read more at: http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/army- ... stories&cp

[ASPuar]

^^
Disinformation spread in the media. It has been amply pointed out, that the AG branch has all along promoted the General on 1951 basis. Even MS Branch has been listing Gen SIngh based on 1951. Or, its just a typo.

[nelson]

^^ one can see, if it is mere DDMitis or a misinformation cum propaganda.

[Jaybhatt]

Fellow BR colleagues may like to see this clip and observe how this low-life Vishnu Som tries to distort the stand of the COAS in the entire affair. For the record, Som's father was an IFS factotum.

Fortunately, the two soldiers invited to Som's programme were clearly not impressed by the fertiliser dished out by the impertinent little toad. General Bakshi and General Thapliyal stuck to their stand and explained how the babus in the MOD had contrived to generate the whole controversy

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/p ... urt/222871

[chaanakya]

The government says that documents with the Army's official record-keeper, the Adjutant General, list 1950, and it is these documents that were used to give General Singh several promotions, including the last one that made him the head of the Army.

Read more at: http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/army- ... stories&cp

Records in public domain speak otherwise.