Indian Army: News & Discussion

[eklavya]

FYI : just to add to the previous posts - people have asked why i have blamed General VKS to a certain extent....well its this idea that everyone play Chanakya within the army rather than against the enemy which drives me up the wall....Thus in my mind even though Gen VKS has proved to be the best chief in the last decade i still would like to hold him to account for not sticking to his guns when he was junior...A chief who did not stick to his guns when he was junior does lose his credibility when he is trying to clean up the system ...

sunnydee,

give you credit for sticking to your guns even though your arguments have lost all credibility.

Bottom line is, you would have preferred it if VKS had fought and lost as a Maj Gen / Lt Gen, rather than shine a light from a position of relative strength on the manipulation conducted by his predecessors and the government. Bottom line is you want VKS to lose and you hate the fact that he is fighting from a position of strength.

Bottom line is you would rather see injustice be done rather than see justice be done.

[sunnydee]

FYI : just to add to the previous posts - people have asked why i have blamed General VKS to a certain extent....well its this idea that everyone play Chanakya within the army rather than against the enemy which drives me up the wall....Thus in my mind even though Gen VKS has proved to be the best chief in the last decade i still would like to hold him to account for not sticking to his guns when he was junior...A chief who did not stick to his guns when he was junior does lose his credibility when he is trying to clean up the system ...

sunnydee,

give you credit for sticking to your guns even though your arguments have lost all credibility. You may not agree with me but then there will be others who would agree with me. Similarly there will be people who will agree to your pov and people who will disagree with it.

Bottom line is, you would have preferred it if VKS had fought and lost as a Maj Gen / Lt Gen, rather than shine a light from a position of relative strength on the manipulation conducted by his predecessors and the government. Bottom line is you want VKS to lose and you hate the fact that he is fighting from a position of strength. Who said he would have lost it ? In my view he has already lost his argument irrespective of the result because he has in a way also manipulated the situation instead of playing a straight bat

Bottom line is you would rather see injustice be done rather than see justice be done.

[chackojoseph]

Indian Army busts Terrorist hideout in Bandipura

[eklavya]

sunnydee,

give you credit for sticking to your guns even though your arguments have lost all credibility.

You may not agree with me but then there will be others who would agree with me. Similarly there will be people who will agree to your pov and people who will disagree with it.

sunnydee, as per your viewpoint (i) VKS should not fight for justice, and (ii) if he does fight for justice, he does not deserve support. On this board there is an overwhelming degree of disagreement to your viewpoint.

Bottom line is, you would have preferred it if VKS had fought and lost as a Maj Gen / Lt Gen, rather than shine a light from a position of relative strength on the manipulation conducted by his predecessors and the government. Bottom line is you want VKS to lose and you hate the fact that he is fighting from a position of strength.

Who said he would have lost it ? In my view he has already lost his argument irrespective of the result because he has in a way also manipulated the situation instead of playing a straight bat

So, you do indeed want VKS to lose, and you persist on painting him and not his predecessors and the government as manipulators. Your true regret is that the manipulators have been exposed.

And in case VKS wins, hope you enjoy the taste of sour grapes.

[sunnydee]

eklavya with due respect till now i thought you were being pleasent in the debate. The tone of your last post is unfortunate.

1. My view is he should have fought for justice in 2006. The view of the board may not necessarily mirror the view of the public at large. Thus you may want to introspect and find out why a "thinking board" has come to mirror your view.
2 About my views on the top brass please read the post at 10:38. Politicians and the MoD were always known as manipulators. As i have stated earlier the tone of this specific point was unfortunate and inaccurate.

[eklavya]

1. My view is he should have fought for justice in 2006.

The victim of injustice has every right to decide when and where to seek justice. Seeking justice in 2012 is not manipulation. Seeking to stop someone from seeking justice (at any point in time) or tarnish them if they seek justice (at any point in time)is manipulation and deeply immoral.

[kunalverma]

Sunnydee,
It's easy to get worked up about VKS's so called 'Acceptance' letters on moral grounds, and for us to say he should have dug in then etc.
The Question we need to address is, dug in to what? Today, with the entire corresspondence being available it's baffling enough, especially since selective leaks have been planted all over the place mainly to make VKS look like he was blowing with the wind, protecting his future rank. Just consider how bewildering it must have been then for VKS for whom the DOB was not an issue at all.
With the benifit of hindsight we today are beginning to realize that there was a plan etched out in 2006 for a preferred 'line of succession'. In 2008/09 it would have been equally unclear as to why the DOB issue was being raked up. In India's sixty five years, how many Corps Commanders and Army Commanders have been appointed after certifying tht they were born in such and such year. NONE! If VKS has got this far with the Holy Trinity (senior Army officers, Babus and Politicians) throwing the kitchen sink at him, we must understand that the man didn't have a hair out of place. Otherwise he would have swung from a yardarm ages ago.
So let's stop being sanctimonious about high moral grounds. I think its vital that the powers that were the key players be asked to explain their stand. And, equally importantly, why is this issue dragging on when the GOI has virtually no leg to stand on. AKA has already been sidelined and is trying to distance himself. Somebody else is now pulling the strings! It's a matter of time before the truth comes out. The stakes are extremely high indeed.

[peter]

I request the newcomers to this DoB discussion to go back at least a few pages and see a posters' position on the issue before branding any one as 'enemy of state' or going ballistic on them. If you don't have time or inclination to do so, avoid personal remarks.

I am afraid you still have not produced the evidence from VKS's writ that you were chiming about earlier. Can you please do that so we know for sure it is written in the writ and not your imagination?

[peter]

@peter
It has been suggested that it was JJ who made a call in 2006 and the agreement they came to was that the dob should be 1950 even if it was under duress. My argument has always been that VKS should have stood his ground at that point of time.

This is getting more and more strange. Katoch is clear that VKS "was promised" by his superior that his DOB would be sorted in 30 days.

Why is it wrong for a person to "accept" their senior's word? Or are we men of no honour?

Since VKS was made to climb down from his position in 2006 by giving him a promise and that promise was not kept how on earth is this VKS's mistake?

[ASPuar]

Why so Kolaveri? The matter is sub judice. What the honble apex court says, is the law of the land. Why should we quibble about it? What is the point of discussing so much in the air? The court has been approached. The court will decide.

[sunnydee]

1. My view is he should have fought for justice in 2006.

The victim of injustice has every right to decide when and where to seek justice. Seeking justice in 2012 is not manipulation. Seeking to stop someone from seeking justice (at any point in time) or tarnish them if they seek justice (at any point in time)is manipulation and deeply immoral.

My view is that as an army officer he should have stood his ground in 2006. If his plea was not accepted then he should have gone to the courts. He didnt have to delay it till now. I didnt state that he should stopped from seeking justice.

[ASPuar]

Yes, yes, your view has been heard many times over. Now lets wait for the court to decide.

[sunnydee]

Sunnydee,
It's easy to get worked up about VKS's so called 'Acceptance' letters on moral grounds, and for us to say he should have dug in then etc.
The Question we need to address is, dug in to what? Today, with the entire corresspondence being available it's baffling enough, especially since selective leaks have been planted all over the place mainly to make VKS look like he was blowing with the wind, protecting his future rank. Just consider how bewildering it must have been then for VKS for whom the DOB was not an issue at all.He states that his personal integrity is very important and the fact this issue of date of birth has come up has undermined his integrity. Didnt he have any issues about the mismatch at that point of time. If he is so passionate about it he should have been passionate about it at that point of time
With the benifit of hindsight we today are beginning to realize that there was a plan etched out in 2006 for a preferred 'line of succession'. In 2008/09 it would have been equally unclear as to why the DOB issue was being raked up. In India's sixty five years, how many Corps Commanders and Army Commanders have been appointed after certifying tht they were born in such and such year. NONE! If VKS has got this far with the Holy Trinity (senior Army officers, Babus and Politicians) throwing the kitchen sink at him, we must understand that the man didn't have a hair out of place. Otherwise he would have swung from a yardarm ages ago.Thats the reason on my previous posts i have suggested the only way the trinity can be stopped is to have an inquiry, preferably a judicial inquiry
So let's stop being sanctimonious about high moral grounds. I think its vital that the powers that were the key players be asked to explain their stand. And, equally importantly, why is this issue dragging on when the GOI has virtually no leg to stand on. AKA has already been sidelined and is trying to distance himself. Somebody else is now pulling the strings! It's a matter of time before the truth comes out. The stakes are extremely high indeed.

As suggested repeatedly an inquiry would help clear every question posed

[sunnydee]

Yes, yes, your view has been heard many times over. Now lets wait for the court to decide.

Thank you sir. Wish i was not asked to clarify my views again. But then i guess i should not be stupid but be smart enough not to answer the questions again and again:)

[Surya]

sunnydee said

Surya there is nothing wrong if its encouraged to have differing points of view on an issue in a forum. Like in a society it would be healthier for a forum. i am not saying the stories behind the politics at AHQ are untrue but what i am saying is that an inquiry needs to be launched even if its internal to figure out the whole truth..

sunnydee

not meant for you - I used Katochs sentence for the likes of SU etc and those who support that line.

as for your view - nelson and peter have already answered that -

DK told him that he was holding up others and in interests of organisation - to accept it and it will be resolved later. Trusting that rat was of course a mistake. The IA has been tragically unfortunate that it had 3 l;ousy chiefs one after the other Vij , JJ and DK - one all pompous, one all fun and frolic and one a crook.

[rajatmisra]

Reading all the posts, it would appear to be a conspiracy to get lt gen bs as the chief. Why? Also, if he is an army commander, can we not assume that he is competent enough. Is there something we (outside the forces) ought to know?

[nelson]

Reading all the posts, it would appear to be a conspiracy to get lt gen bs as the chief. Why? Also, if he is an army commander, can we not assume that he is competent enough. Is there something we (outside the forces) ought to know?

That is exactly the point. At the level of Army Commanders all of them who make the grade and some more, should be competent enough to be the COAS. Now unlike other govt services only one of these scores of competent persons can become COAS. He would be the first among equals, ie at the instant of vacancy arising due to superannuation of the incumbent COAS the senior most among the Army Commanders and VCOAS is appointed the Chief. This has been the trend except on two occasions.

[Sachin]

As suggested repeatedly an inquiry would help clear every question posed

+1. I see that there were references which indicate that Def. Minister A.K Anthony also should be dragged on the coals. And that Keralites generally do not make good defence ministers. Now that such a point of concern is also there, I feel a detailed investigation needs to be made. Anthony was C.M in Kerala, and have been a politician for quite some time now. One charge which no one has raised against him is corruption, the second being nepotism etc. He some times gets blamed for being too lazy, or not very prompt in giving responses etc. And the next allegation is that even though a silent and discrete individual he is not a fool, and does move up the system, without causing too much trouble any where.

There should be a detailed investigation on this. I don't think A.K Anthony alone can manipulate a system to such an extent. And I personally don't feel that A.K Anthony is a such a person who wished to see xyz as the COAS on a given date. The manipulations would have happened at multiple stages (with many being in the Army, and with non-Keralite officers running the show). Names are floating in BRF, but a formal investigation needs to be done. But I feel it is a "Bridge Too Far" as this may cause heart burns to many folks (if you ask me A.K Anthony may have the least of this, but many others would certainly have this in more sizeable quantity).

[geeth]

Is there any connection between the succession scheme and the 2G Scam? I ask this because, the extra spectrum that was sold for a song appeas to have nbeen obttained from the Army.

This is a quote from SC judgement

What the SC says “But for enlightened citizens and NGOs who have been fighting for clean governance and accountability... unsuspecting citizens... would never have known how a scarce natural resource spared by the army has been grabbed by those who enjoy money power and who manipulate the system.”

May be VKS was caught in the crossfire..

[nelson]

There is no reason to doubt that the seeds of DoB row were sown and germinated before AKA become Defence Minister in Oct 2006

[chetak]

As suggested repeatedly an inquiry would help clear every question posed

+1. I see that there were references which indicate that Def. Minister A.K Anthony also should be dragged on the coals. And that Keralites generally do not make good defence ministers. Now that such a point of concern is also there, I feel a detailed investigation needs to be made. Anthony was C.M in Kerala, and have been a politician for quite some time now. One charge which no one has raised against him is corruption, the second being nepotism etc. He some times gets blamed for being too lazy, or not very prompt in giving responses etc. And the next allegation is that even though a silent and discrete individual he is not a fool, and does move up the system, without causing too much trouble any where.

There should be a detailed investigation on this. I don't think A.K Anthony alone can manipulate a system to such an extent. And I personally don't feel that A.K Anthony is a such a person who wished to see xyz as the COAS on a given date. The manipulations would have happened at multiple stages (with many being in the Army, and with non-Keralite officers running the show). Names are floating in BRF, but a formal investigation needs to be done. But I feel it is a "Bridge Too Far" as this may cause heart burns to many folks (if you ask me A.K Anthony may have the least of this, but many others would certainly have this in more sizeable quantity).

Not discounting the CTs about JJ and DK, there is more to this than meets the eye.

The opposition to idiot omar abdullah's insistence on the removal the AFSPA, ditto in the north east, MMS's singular lack of headway on his ill chosen path of making peace with the pakis, the vast tracts of Army land in major cities in prime locations being up for grabs, the pigheadedness of the Indian babus and the desire of the political class to put the faujis in their place egged on of course by the MOD morons. Many heavy weight politicos, NCP variety and their ilk are involved in the process of illegally unlocking defence lands and while there are currently muted whispers now, ( railway and airport authority, and port trust lands also) these heavy weights have the power to influence such matters,specially with elections looming large.
There is also the unlocking of the spectrum that the Army is to vacate.

None of the above is actually indicative of the true depth and venality of some of the army top brass and the sorry situation they have brought to pass.

Under the circumstances, this was the best way for Gen VKS to go.

[aditp]

The court acquitted Chidu. I feel the Govt will regain confidence and refuse to withdraw the Dec 30 order and take the legal battle further.....and have egg all over its face.

[kunalverma]

In almost all private conversations, AKA has been saying (for months even before the filing of the Statutory Complaint) that he 'was acting on orders from above'. Dr Subramanium Swamy met him on January 13 in his office and told him that GOI's stand was ridiculous. AKA had replied that he fully agreed but he had his orders from the PMO. Swamy quoted this conversation when he wrote to the PM on the 14th, and I had posted this on BR after Dr Swamy gave me a copy. This was also quoted in the Outlook article.
Post Feb 3 the Defence Minister has been explicitly told to stay out of the way. In fact, he is now distancing himself from the issue. Apart from his widely quoted remark about the age issue being an internal army fiasco, the Minister has also said that he never actually looked at the Chief's Statutory Complaint, simply forwarding it to the CAG for his comment.
The Principal Secretary in the PMO, TKA Nair also has been quoted as saying that the entire age fiasco is due to the PM having promised his wife that come what may, BS will be the next chief. On 16 January, Swamy had dropped in on VKS in the evening. He too catagorically stated that it was the PM who was himself calling the shots in the matter.

[Jaybhatt]

Sunnydee : stop being obtuse. Your fuming is evident - and so is your spat with everyone else.

You are free to have your opinion, however far fetched it may be. However, when others point out the clear absurdity of your stand, don't hector them.

If anyone is attempting to play "God" it is you, pontificating that the good Chief should have committed hara kiri,when he had no manoeuvring space, rather than combat the unholy nexus at a suitable time and place.

[sunnydee]

In almost all private conversations, AKA has been saying (for months even before the filing of the Statutory Complaint) that he 'was acting on orders from above'. Dr Subramanium Swamy met him on January 13 in his office and told him that GOI's stand was ridiculous. AKA had replied that he fully agreed but he had his orders from the PMO. Swamy quoted this conversation when he wrote to the PM on the 14th, and I had posted this on BR after Dr Swamy gave me a copy. This was also quoted in the Outlook article.
Post Feb 3 the Defence Minister has been explicitly told to stay out of the way. In fact, he is now distancing himself from the issue. Apart from his widely quoted remark about the age issue being an internal army fiasco, the Minister has also said that he never actually looked at the Chief's Statutory Complaint, simply forwarding it to the CAG for his comment.
The Principal Secretary in the PMO, TKA Nair also has been quoted as saying that the entire age fiasco is due to the PM having promised his wife that come what may, BS will be the next chief. On 16 January, Swamy had dropped in on VKS in the evening. He too catagorically stated that it was the PM who was himself calling the shots in the matter.

The Great Sikh Conscpiracy with a malyalee tadka. Can i suggest that if Gen VKS does not win the case a lawsuit be filed if its possible?

[kunalverma]

The meeting between Parnab Mukherjee and VKS on 2 Feb was also a brief 10-minute affair. The meeting was called by the Finance Minister and the news was leaked to the media by the GOI, perhaps to give the SC the impression that the Chief was looking for a compromise.

[nelson]

Now to believe that the above is going to come to light in a legal forum is unbelievable. It is exactly for this reason, the magnitude of powers VKS is arraigned against, that i keep saying, he stands a chance only if he has done his homework.

By homework, i intend to mean that he should have enough documentary evidence of what is being considered as Conspiracy Theory here.

[sunnydee]

Sunnydee : stop being obtuse. Your fuming is evident - and so is your spat with everyone else.

You are free to have your opinion, however far fetched it may be. However, when others point out the clear absurdity of your stand, don't hector them.

If anyone is attempting to play "God" it is you, pontificating that the good Chief should have committed hara kiri,when he had no manoeuvring space, rather than combat the unholy nexus at a suitable time and place.

1. No I am not fuming
2. Thanks for letting ne have my opinion but in my opinion and a lot of other people including those who have worn the olive green there is nothing absurd about this stand. So what gives you the right to judge if its absurd. Secondly i have not asked anyone to change their opinion just laid out another opinion. If they like it they can accept it.
3. Our values our different so lets not get into that discussion again.

[nelson]

The reason that Pranab is seen as a mediator is probably because he was the Defence Minister when the seeds of this DoB row germinated.

[kunalverma]

Given the above background, the next big question is what is the compromise formula being bandied about by GOI. A draft accepting 1951 as the DOB has been shown to people close to the Chief and perhaps to VKS as well. The hitch? Give it in writing that VKS resign on 31 May 2012.
So once again it boils down to a single point agenda on the GOI's side. Million dollar question is why has this line of succession become so critical. I posted almost a month ago that the seeds were sown in 2006 after which there is enough documentary evidence to suggest that at least four officers were 'fixed' to clear the way for VKS's chosen successor who at the time hadn't even commanded a division. Incidently, that list of four can now be extended to seven as more evidence surfaces.

[eklavya]

In almost all private conversations, AKA has been saying (for months even before the filing of the Statutory Complaint) that he 'was acting on orders from above'. Dr Subramanium Swamy met him on January 13 in his office and told him that GOI's stand was ridiculous. AKA had replied that he fully agreed but he had his orders from the PMO. Swamy quoted this conversation when he wrote to the PM on the 14th, and I had posted this on BR after Dr Swamy gave me a copy. This was also quoted in the Outlook article.
Post Feb 3 the Defence Minister has been explicitly told to stay out of the way. In fact, he is now distancing himself from the issue. Apart from his widely quoted remark about the age issue being an internal army fiasco, the Minister has also said that he never actually looked at the Chief's Statutory Complaint, simply forwarding it to the CAG for his comment.
The Principal Secretary in the PMO, TKA Nair also has been quoted as saying that the entire age fiasco is due to the PM having promised his wife that come what may, BS will be the next chief. On 16 January, Swamy had dropped in on VKS in the evening. He too catagorically stated that it was the PM who was himself calling the shots in the matter.

The Great Sikh Conscpiracy with a malyalee tadka. Can i suggest that if Gen VKS does not win the case a lawsuit be filed if its possible?

sunnydee, by your "moral" standards, the lawsuit should be filed immediately. Who will sue whom for what is not clear, but please don't let that stop you.

[kunalverma]

Quite honestly GOI is lucky that the matter before the SC concerns only VKS's DOB. If the 'Line of Succession' comes into judicial review, there's enough 'evidence' lurking in the shadows. Take Ravi Arora's case (Outlook). His 'fixing' was not subjective, it was objective with Army HQ under the then COAS (2006) holding a board which was such a farce that even MOD commented on it.

[sunnydee]

The Great Sikh Conscpiracy with a malyalee tadka. Can i suggest that if Gen VKS does not win the case a lawsuit be filed if its possible?[/quote]


sunnydee, by your "moral" standards, the lawsuit should be filed immediately. Who will sue whom for what is not clear, but please don't let that stop you.[/quote]


I dont have the evidence but Mr Verma's convictions suggest that he has facts which have helped him to come to his conclusion. Therefore he would be the appropriate person to direct your question to ?

[nelson]

From the desk of C Uday Bhaskar, on the requirement of a modus vivendi.
http://in.reuters.com/article/2012/02/0 ... 5420120205

[eklavya]

The Great Sikh Conscpiracy with a malyalee tadka. Can i suggest that if Gen VKS does not win the case a lawsuit be filed if its possible?

sunnydee, by your "moral" standards, the lawsuit should be filed immediately. Who will sue whom for what is not clear, but please don't let that stop you.

I dont have the evidence but Mr Verma's convictions suggest that he has facts which have helped him to come to his conclusion. Therefore he would be the appropriate person to direct your question to ?

sunnydee, first you suggest a course of action, and then you act shy. We are counting on you to lead the forces of "morality".

[Sanku]

Very Interesting. However i guess i would have to disagree with you and stick to my original stand ( I guess we agree to disagree). Maybe its due to the difference in our world view. My view is an army officer or a leader should stand his or her ground on such issues .

Since we are discussing PoVs, let me candidly state that your PoV appears to be deliberately mischievous, because it clearly and repeatedly avoids taking real world incidents into the narrative and has a story which has no relation to actual incidents on the ground.

That in itself is not too bad, the the really horrible thing is that when you are corrected with suitable facts, you still prefer to cling on to a hackneyed story like a single track record.

Let me honest, this judgment of Gen V K Singh, is more of a judgment on you rather than Gen Singh. Think about it a bit.

[kunalverma]

No, please Sunnydee, let's not sidetrack the issue!
I personally believe that the 'Age Issue' s the best thing that could have happened to the Indian Army. It brings into sharp focus precisely what everyone has been moaning and groaning about. VKS can say what he likes about it being his own private battle but it is about a) the rot within the Army at the highest echlons, b) civil-military relations, c) political interference and finally d) the eventual public perception of our fighting men.
At a very basic level I feel its the best thing to have happened at this stage for the Age Issue by itself means dam all. I'm neither pro VKS or BS or anti JJ or anybody else for that matter. In fact I think on this forum we all deeply care for our Armed Forces, and to see the gradual errosion into its basic structure at multiple levels is depressing. In this scenario, I think its better for the country to awaken and face reality rather than have this debate after a military debacle.
VKS has done something which none of our Chiefs have done of late - he's stood up for what he believes in. To quote from Yes Minister, if you have them by the balls, the hearts and minds will follow.

[sunnydee]

The Great Sikh Conscpiracy with a malyalee tadka. Can i suggest that if Gen VKS does not win the case a lawsuit be filed if its possible?

sunnydee, by your "moral" standards, the lawsuit should be filed immediately. Who will sue whom for what is not clear, but please don't let that stop you.

I dont have the evidence but Mr Verma's convictions suggest that he has facts which have helped him to come to his conclusion. Therefore he would be the appropriate person to direct your question to ?

sunnydee, first you suggest a course of action, and then you act shy. We are counting on you to lead the forces of "morality".

Well it was Kunalverma who has suggested that the PM's wife forced the PM to promise her that Bikram Singh, at that time a Brigadier, would become a Chief of Army Staff. This meant that careers of nearly eight officers were fixed to clear his path. He has also informed us that the Honourable Subramanian Swamy gave him some information which points to that claim. His conviction suggests he may have some evidence in regards to this. As this is what he is stating and he says he has or someone he know has factual and documented evidence regarding this conspiracy hatched by the PM and his wife he should be encouraged to file a lawsuit on this issue with the relevant courts obviously after obtaining said evidence. Wouldnt you want to encourage him?

[sunnydee]

Very Interesting. However i guess i would have to disagree with you and stick to my original stand ( I guess we agree to disagree). Maybe its due to the difference in our world view. My view is an army officer or a leader should stand his or her ground on such issues .

Since we are discussing PoVs, let me candidly state that your PoV appears to be deliberately mischievous, because it clearly and repeatedly avoids taking real world incidents into the narrative and has a story which has no relation to actual incidents on the ground.

That in itself is not too bad, the the really horrible thing is that when you are corrected with suitable facts, you still prefer to cling on to a hackneyed story like a single track record.

Let me honest, this judgment of Gen V K Singh, is more of a judgment on you rather than Gen Singh. Think about it a bit.

Thanks for your advice. Cheers

[nelson]

^^The time for that suit is when the next govt is in power. Let us wait.