Indian Naval Discussion

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Skanhai » 07 Feb 2012 00:33

Cybaru wrote:I think there is enough scope for IN to have upto 6 squadrons of AD fighters for its three carriers.2 Mig-29K2 LCA-Mk-22 Rafale M


It's not about how much scope there is, it's what you need.. Naval Tejas and Mig29 (K?) are allready two types. That means munition and spare part for 2 types. that means logistics, that means storage that means technicians. Hugely expensive.
The naval Tejas and Mig29K are different fighters so it makes sense to have them both. They so a different job. Tejas for example intercept and attack at close range. Mig29K for long range attack intercept airdominance.
I think these 2 types are enough. How many fighters/bombers are stations on the USN carriers

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 07 Feb 2012 02:01

True,

But India will have 3 carriers and they will need about 6 quadrons to support those three squadrons. I don't see us buying any more mig-29Ks.

It perhaps should be NLCA and Rafale moving forward for the third carrier.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Nick_S » 07 Feb 2012 02:34

Philip wrote:Good idea,if Italy can build asap a larger carrier,but they have not built a large carrier before.The Viraat if her hull is fine,can certainly soldier on as an amphib ops vessel,as she was used in the Falklands (with her Harriers) and as an ASW warfare carrier.She could be based in the A&N islands which would suit her status and stress her less.


Philip, Italy has more experience building large carrier and carrier types than Sevmash. They could have build ADS-0 as I mentioned earlier. ADS-1 is a super sized and MKIzed Cavour. I am sure they would have built it faster than India and far faster than this Gorky fiasco.

As for the carrier wing, we could have still gone with the Mig-29Ks.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Nick_S » 07 Feb 2012 06:25

Cain Marko wrote:Problem is, like Austin said, we don't know how much more an Italian built Cavourish ADS would have cost. The ADS is much bigger than the Cavour, and has the ski ramp to boot. Another thing, did the Vikad deal not include $$ss for the refurb of current Chakra - perhaps there was a strategic value in it that made it worth more?


No, IMHO Nerpa was a separate deal. I dont see why money for Nerpa needs to be routed through Vikad when everyone knows (and it has been publicized) that India is leasing Nerpa. So the deal was never hidden.

Cavour also has a ski ramp but different config. ADS is much bigger but it is derived from the Cavour design with Italian help. The Australian Canberra class are also derived from Cavour; so it stands to reason the Italians could build ADS in a reasonable period of time.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby VinodTK » 08 Feb 2012 02:59

Aircraft carrier on course
Indian Navy to get INS Vikramaditya on Dec 4, no extension of deadline

INS Vikramaditya aircraft carrier will be handed over to India on December 4. Sergei Chemezov, the general director of Russian Technologies, has ruled out any further delay. “Extending the deadline is not an option. We are obligated to finish the aircraft carrier by the end of the year,” he said. Russia and India signed an agreement in New Delhi in 2004 that provided for Admiral Gorshkov Russian aircraft carrier to be handed over to India free of charge, on the condition that India modernises the vessel at the Sevmash plant and has a Russian production air task force outfit it. Russia also agreed to train 1,500 Indian crew for the aircraft carrier and provide for the infrastructure to base the vessel in the Indian Ocean. The contract initially was estimated to be worth $1.5 billion dollars: 974 million for restoring its technical readiness and modernising it, and another $530 million for delivering 16 MiG-29K fighter jets and Ka-31 and Ka-27 anti-submarine helicopters. The work on retooling and modernising the vessel into a full-fledged aircraft carrier was supposed to be finished in 2008. However, the contract deadline was extended as Russia said that additional funds were needed to pay for modernising the vessel. During his visit to India on March 12, 2010, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin signed a supplemental agreement for amending the cost of the reconstruction and modernisation of the Vikramaditya aircraft carrier. India now estimates the contract at $2.33 billion. The vessel is expected to be able to serve 30 years.


Please go the link and read the full topic

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby VinodTK » 08 Feb 2012 03:07

Russia Completes Final Trials of Indian Frigate
The Yantar shipyard in Russia's Baltic exclave of Kaliningrad has completed the final tests of a missile frigate for the Indian navy, the company’s spokesman Sergei Mikhailov said o Tuesday.

Russia and India signed a $1.6 billion contract on construction of three modified Krivak III class (also known as Talwar class) guided missile frigates for India in 2006. The first frigate, the Teg, was scheduled for delivery in April 2011, but funding shortfalls have delayed the work.

Two other Talwar class frigates, the Tarkash and the Trikand, are at various stages of construction and testing at the Yantar shipyard, and their delivery dates are unknown.

The new frigates are each armed with eight BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles.

They are also equipped with a 100-mm gun, a Shtil surface-to-air missile system, two Kashtan air-defense gun/missile systems, two twin 533-mm torpedo launchers, and an antisubmarine warfare (ASW) helicopter.

Russia has previously built three Talwar class frigates for India - INS Talwar (Sword), INS Trishul (Trident), and INS Tabar (Axe).

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby shukla » 08 Feb 2012 17:54

Joint naval exercises “TROPEX 2012” begin in India

India’s Defence Minister A K Antony inaugurated the annual joint naval fleet exercises and is spending a night on the country's lone aircraft carrier INS Viraat. Antony, accompanied by the Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Nirmal Verma, visited the indigenous stealth frigate INS Shivalik and is expected to supervise naval operations, including missile and rocket firings, air power demonstration and interceptor missions involving fighter aircraft of the Navy and the Air Force tomorrow during the two-day exercise, pti reported.

Some 40 ships including submarines and 13 naval aircraft and Unmanned Aerial Vehicles will participate in the demonstrations, the release said. Units of the Indian Coast Guard and 18 aircraft of the Indian Air Force will also take part in the exercise. A variety of missile firings, Air Defence Exercises and anti-submarine drills will also be carried out, it added. TROPEX is a major annual exercise of the combined fleets of the Navy to test the force's preparedness to deal with any contingency.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby shukla » 08 Feb 2012 17:55

Defence Minister visits Naval Base
The Hindu

Union Minister for Defence A.K. Antony arrived here on Tuesday for a ‘Day at Sea' onboard the warships of the Indian Navy, comprising both Eastern and Western Fleets, off Visakhapatnam. He was accompanied by Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Nirmal Verma and was received on arrival at INS Dega by Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief of Eastern Naval Command Vice Admiral Anil Chopra. The Minister visited the indigenous stealth frigate INS Shivalik at sea and is scheduled to spend the night onboard the Aircraft Carrier INS Viraat.

According to a spokesman of the Indian Navy here, he will witness the entire gamut of Naval operations including missile and rocket firings, air power demonstration, interceptor missions involving fighter aircraft of the Navy and the Air Force and several evolutions like underway replenishment, multi ship jackstay and combat freefall. Mr. Antony will also interact with officers and men of the Navy onboard the fleet ships. Ships, submarines, aircraft and unmanned aerial vehicles of the Indian Navy, ships and aircraft of the Indian Coast Guard and the Indian Air Force are scheduled to take part in an exercise codenamed ‘Tropex 2012,' commencing off Visakhapatnam. The major annual exercise is aimed at testing the Navy's preparedness in dealing with contingencies.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 08 Feb 2012 23:26

DELETED

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SNaik » 09 Feb 2012 20:39

Sindhurakshak being upgraded with Club and USHUS, photos 13 to 20:
http://fotografersha.livejournal.com/210408.html

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ramana » 09 Feb 2012 23:50

There is a picture in Hindu of the IN ship firing a Brahmos.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Sanku » 10 Feb 2012 00:18

Nick_S wrote:
Philip wrote:Good idea,if Italy can build asap a larger carrier,but they have not built a large carrier before.The Viraat if her hull is fine,can certainly soldier on as an amphib ops vessel,as she was used in the Falklands (with her Harriers) and as an ASW warfare carrier.She could be based in the A&N islands which would suit her status and stress her less.


Philip, Italy has more experience building large carrier and carrier types than Sevmash. They could have build ADS-0 as I mentioned earlier. ADS-1 is a super sized and MKIzed Cavour. I am sure they would have built it faster than India and far faster than this Gorky fiasco.

As for the carrier wing, we could have still gone with the Mig-29Ks.


Except that Navy chiefs have been on record saying that if some one can get them a ship in this time frame and this budget they have their cheque books open.

There is a tremendous difference between having a Italian shipbuilder help a Indian "Military" yard in building large ships and actually build one in their own yards at the same cost and same timelines.

"If this and then this" is a valid exercise, but the one here clearly is missing out some factors.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ramana » 10 Feb 2012 01:05


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby PratikDas » 10 Feb 2012 01:20

ramana wrote:Torpex-12

Combat freefall

Besides experiencing the potential of INS Shivalik and INS Shakti, Mr. Antony watched the successful interception of a fast, low-flying surface-to-surface missile by a surface-to-air missile on a moonlit night as also an air power demonstration by aircraft carrier INS Viraat and a professional mid-sea execution of a combat freefall technique by Marine Commandoes on the flight deck.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Skanhai » 10 Feb 2012 01:48

Talking about Shivalik class.. I don't see many pictures of it...
How come? It's not top secret is it?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby srai » 10 Feb 2012 07:11

Skanhai wrote:Talking about Shivalik class.. I don't see many pictures of it...
How come? It's not top secret is it?


It's relatively new to the IN fleet. But if you Google for images, you will see plenty of pictures for Shivalik from many different angles.

Google Image Search for INS Shivalik

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 10 Feb 2012 10:08

Nick_S wrote:No, IMHO Nerpa was a separate deal. I dont see why money for Nerpa needs to be routed through Vikad when everyone knows (and it has been publicized) that India is leasing Nerpa. So the deal was never hidden.


If Nerpa was a separate deal how comes it was not signed as such? IIRC, it was said that the Nerpa was signed for along with the Gorky in a "package deal". And God knows best.

Under a USD 650 million confidential deal, part of the aircraft carrier 'Admiral Gorshkov' package, Russia is to give India the Nerpa on a 10-year lease, to be inducted as INS Chakra
.

Multiple sources via Google chacha.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 10 Feb 2012 10:29

Russia is to drop production of the Lada/Amur diesel subs.The report (http://en.ria.ru/russia/20120209/171225725.html) suggests that the new AIP system under development which will arrive in 2014 will be retrofitted to the earlier subs built and any new ones in the future.

“It is entirely possible we will receive a test version of an air-independent power plant in the next few years. On boats of the Lada class, two of which are already laid down. Trials may begin in 2014. That is absolutely realistic,” he said.


This probably indicates that a non-AIP diesel sub today has little attraction in the market abroad,esp. as almost all new subs being bought are of the AIP type.There were reports about Russia also trying to develop new high powered batteries which would obviate the need for an AIP system ,giving the sub almost double extended underwater endurance on the new batteries alone.

The dropping of manufacture of the Lada/Amur in current form,indicates that it would not have been found suitable for the IN's second line of subs for which initial work is on to find a suitable sub for local production. One has to see what type of sub the Russians will now offer the IN in the contest.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kailash » 10 Feb 2012 11:36

India moves navy as axed Maldives president Nasheed faces prison

The government has not issued a travel advisory so far but four warships, two transport planes besides para-commando units have been put on alert to prepare for any eventualities.
<snip>India also defended its decision not to interfere in Maldives' internal politics and decried assertions by the ousted leader that he was removed in a coup.


Another link

According to reports, a Defence Crisis Management Group made up of the operational wings of the Indian army, navy and air force has been placed on standby. An amphibious briage under 54 Division will lead the operations if required.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 10 Feb 2012 11:56

we have no option to save face but crack the stick and put people in line.

we were totally blindsided by the coup itself.

else be prepared for a sea based pakistan on our west coast.

nip the problem now.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 10 Feb 2012 12:10

Singha wrote:we have no option to save face but crack the stick and put people in line. we were totally blindsided by the coup itself. else be prepared for a sea based pakistan on our west coast. nip the problem now.
The ends dont justify the means. The Maldivian people have the right to choose for themselves.

From what I understand, from a broader perspective, the civil revolt brought back leaders favourable to India and the international community.

Our intervention in 1987 was an exception and not the rule. And the PLOTE mercenaries were India trained, so essentially we were cleaning our shit before it gave us a bad name.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sum » 10 Feb 2012 12:56

^^ On pooch while reading "Ghost Wars". The author mentions that USN subs were virtually parked near TSP waters since 98-00 trying to fire off missiles if OBL was located in Afg.

Does it mean that there were frequent encounters of USN with IN assets prowling that area since i cant see them not bumping into each other when operating in such close quarters for such long periods?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 10 Feb 2012 13:40

Sum, Anther aspect of Operation Parakram was 2 US CBG's were based of the coast of Pakistan. In case of a shooting war in India -Pak, US would have had to stop its war in Afganistan. That was added pressure on us in the beginning of 2002.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 10 Feb 2012 15:42

Most certainly US did not want GOI to open another front with Pakistan as that would mean PA pulling it troop and divirting towards india , neither did GOI had any stomach to do that.

Having said that most analyst still are not clear what Op Parakram has achieved by keeping troops at border for 6 months and then withdrawing it without any benefit.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 10 Feb 2012 15:47

Austin wrote:Most certainly US did not want GOI to open another front with Pakistan as that would mean PA pulling it troop and divirting towards india , neither did GOI had any stomach to do that.

Having said that most analyst still are not clear what Op Parakram has achieved by keeping troops at border for 6 months and then withdrawing it without any benefit.


Enough Paki casualties for them to abandon artillery exchanges across the LOC began by them since 1989.

But that was not the idea, after the parliament attack the Army was mobilized. Now if we start stating well we mobilized but since we did not go to war, it is a defeat is a self goal.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 10 Feb 2012 16:19

Aditya_V wrote:But that was not the idea, after the parliament attack the Army was mobilized. Now if we start stating well we mobilized but since we did not go to war, it is a defeat is a self goal.


No one knows why the Army was mobilised and no one knows why it was withdrawn.....some analyst believe the govt did that in haste and then ate crow by withdrawing it

What happened was the log period of mobilisation impacted their training and other professional activity.....but there were also lessons learnt for the Army and the whole idea of quick mobilisation or Cold Start or what ever is the newer name given had its genesis there .....

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 10 Feb 2012 16:30

Philip wrote:The dropping of manufacture of the Lada/Amur in current form,indicates that it would not have been found suitable for the IN's second line of subs for which initial work is on to find a suitable sub for local production. One has to see what type of sub the Russians will now offer the IN in the contest.


I hope you read the full interview which was in Russian if not i will post it here.

What the Navy Chief said that the current Lada in trial lacked the power at the desired level what they had specified and it wont make it to production model... what he wants is there are two more lada which is being built and he wants that to have AIP propulsion and does not want a simple diesel electric propulsion which he said was in use since WW2.

So the Lada design is not being dropped but is being enhanced with AIP propulsion which was not in favour earlier by RuN , now the caveat is they should be able to solve all problems with AIP and Propulsion.

For the IN i think its in a way good becuase AIP will be adopted by RuN and it wont be the sole user of it i.e. if they decide to choose the Amur design.

Frankly speaking i am not a great believer in having two seperate SSK design and just add more logistics problem , its better to build Enhanced Scorpene or a Spanish S-80 design which has most logistics commonality with Scorpene design.

This whole East and West concept will bleed the navy in long run.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 10 Feb 2012 16:35

Austin wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:But that was not the idea, after the parliament attack the Army was mobilized. Now if we start stating well we mobilized but since we did not go to war, it is a defeat is a self goal.


No one knows why the Army was mobilised and no one knows why it was withdrawn.....some analyst believe the govt did that in haste and then ate crow by withdrawing it

What happened was the log period of mobilisation impacted their training and other professional activity.....but there were also lessons learnt for the Army and the whole idea of quick mobilisation or Cold Start or what ever is the newer name given had its genesis there .....


Army was mobilized after a series of Paki terror attacks in 1999-01 culminating in the Parliament attack in Dec 2001 giving a feeling Pakistan had gone too far and war needs to be declared.

In view of pressure from Western Powers and internal security apparatus in the country in taters post Godhra and the Gujarat riots, it became clear war was not an option and hence Army had to be demobilized.

Mistakes, your policy should not be reactionary, you do not mobilize and claim to the whole world you are mobilizing.

What is eating crow, did Pakistan defeat India - NO. All that happened was India did not attack- this is being spun as a Paki victory??

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Snehashis » 10 Feb 2012 16:41

Philip wrote:Russia is to drop production of the Lada/Amur diesel subs.The report (http://en.ria.ru/russia/20120209/171225725.html) suggests that the new AIP system under development which will arrive in 2014 will be retrofitted to the earlier subs built and any new ones in the future.

<snip>

The dropping of manufacture of the Lada/Amur in current form,indicates that it would not have been found suitable for the IN's second line of subs for which initial work is on to find a suitable sub for local production. One has to see what type of sub the Russians will now offer the IN in the contest.



As it looks like Amur will never enter IN service. A Super Scorpene with VL Nirbhay type CM and MESMA/DRDO AIP will be a better and low risk alternative. VL Nirbhay will provide longer distance strike capability than VL Brahmos. Though Brahmos has its own +ve but it will require a bigger sub, more engineering challenges and risk and it will make the project more expensive.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 10 Feb 2012 16:42

Aditya_V wrote:What is eating crow, did Pakistan defeat India - NO. All that happened was India did not attack- this is being spun as a Paki victory??


Eating Crow is you mobilise the whole army without purpose and then withdraw it without gaining any thing.

Paki victory......hell Pakis do not need anyarmy victory ....it has been sucessfully bleeding India since past 2 decades with Terrorism.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 10 Feb 2012 16:47

Austin, Yes , but the role of Western powers in supporting Munna was brought out. Also, next time we learnt that we don't need to make a song and dance at the time of mobilisation but do it quietly.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 10 Feb 2012 16:57

Tx Austin for the clarifications.I think that is what I understood also.Non-AIP Ladas not able to meet new requirements/capabilities.

Reg. second line of subs.There will be no harm in having a scond line of subs from Russia or Germany,as we already operate two-earlier three types,when the Foxtrots were also around.Logistics should not be a problem.The Scorpenes are too small and will require first Russia's permission and then extensive redeisgn to accomodate Brahmos.Building a few extra Scorpenes to have a large number of them in service should suffice,unless German U-boats are found to be superior in evaluations.They are best for the littorals while a larger sub that has two sizes of tubes and silos for BMos, is required for bue-water oips with greater endurance and weaponry.Nirbhay will take some time to develop and is meant more for LR land attack-could even carry a N-warhead like Israeli LR cruise missiles said to be aboard their Dolphin subs, rather than BMos ,meant for anti-ship ops.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 10 Feb 2012 17:27


Austin
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 11 Feb 2012 14:43


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sum » 11 Feb 2012 19:38

^^ Good article.

Again, the 2 Akula subs reference:

In January 2004, Russian Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov visited India and signed an agreement on construction and lease of two nuclear submarines, and the shipyard completed the construction of the nuclear submarine.


Wonder what is the status of the other sub and is it coming to us too?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 11 Feb 2012 21:03

Supposedly the Chakra:

[youtube]GDYrV8H8kw0&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

Check out 1.00 minute and then around 1:10 min - what is that missile?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 11 Feb 2012 22:27

The submarine shown there initially with Indian Naval Officer is the decommisioning of Vagli which is foxtrot class , the internal of the submarine shown some time later is Virginia class SSN including the loading of torpedoes and Ops room.

Some LA class SSN footage is added for effects as it surfaces.

The missile fired from Torpedo tube is Tomahawk Cruise missile fired from US submarine.

The Rusian submarine shown later is the Typhoon Class SSBN.

So bottom line is Nerpa is not shown in the video :D

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 11 Feb 2012 23:26

Lol, indeed. Wow. Spares problem?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Christopher Sidor » 11 Feb 2012 23:33

Austin wrote:INS Chakra II


If this article is to be believed then, Chakra-II will not come with any Russian personnel on board. That is good. We need to operate this on our own. But the utility of this sub in training Indian naval personnel is also questionable. Naval personnel on Arihant and its sister ships can carry out mock drills on firing of K series of missiles. Training naval personnel w.r.t nuclear reactors can be easily done on shore based facilities.

Chakra-II is a SSN. It is meant to attack targets like USN CBG or other SSBN and possibly SSGN. After 1971 - USS Enterprise fiasco and non withstanding all the hype about India-US strategic alignment, it would make sense for IN to have assets which might make any eventual repeat of 1971 USS Enterprise saga redundant.

But look at certain facts. This lease is for 10 years. This is an attack submarine not a deterrence based boomer. Unless India plans to build SSBN first and later on SSN, then only does it operationally sense for India to go for Nerpa. It has been insinuated that India plans on building 5 nuclear submarines. Assuming that it will take 2-3 years for us to build a nuclear submarine, we might be in a position of having SSBN in our inventory but not SSN by the time this decade runs out. But throw in nerpa and the calculus changes.

Technologically I understand nerpa gives us access to some cutting edge nuclear submarine tech. But from a purely operational perspective, considering that the lease is for a decade, this submarine says something else entirely. And if it is to be believed that this is only first of the two or three SSN which will join IN, then it does appear that IN is planning something different and training is not the first purpose of this SSN, i.e. nerpa/Chakra-II.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 11 Feb 2012 23:58

It is rather obvious that training is not the sole purpose of this boat. Also, lets not forget a 10 year lease could be renewed. I think it is 10 years because by then India should be able to build its own SSNs.


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