Indian Army: News & Discussion

sunnydee · Post by **sunnydee** » 11 Feb 2012 15:10

geeth wrote:
In the scenario which have you have observed why would someone give it in writing that their dob is 85 and not 87 ? If its a government servant did this happen in the first two years of service ?
Ha! now the thief is questioning the sentry? The Army Chief didn't give in in writing, but it was extracted from him. So your question should be reframed as to read : what was the scenario in which the Govt tells it employee that such and such is his date of birth irrespective of what is in your school certificate of DoB certificate and he is asked to give it in writing that he accepts whatever the Govt says..nothing funny about it??

Did you read peter's post ?

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 11 Feb 2012 15:13

Did you read peter's post ?

Yes..Did I miss something?

sunnydee · Post by **sunnydee** » 11 Feb 2012 15:16

Well in his post he mentioned a scenario(based on what the sc has observed)..I only asked him questions to get a better understanding of the scenario he came up with...

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Feb 2012 15:21

geeth wrote:He still he is..and per your own words, even the SC and Govt has acknowledged it. Now don't try and give your spin to it!

Ok it was typo on my part and will accept it , He is still a man of Honour and Dignity and SC and Govt have mentioned it in so many words.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Feb 2012 15:25

nelson wrote:In this forum too, like you are doing.

Been on this board long enough to see that fringe elements will be there who will have their own rigid views on this no matter what , never mind Life goes on.

I hope though the General does not put in this paper and serves his full term but i see many like Ajai Shukla ,Maroof and few Retd Gens who feel who should put in his papers at the earliest.

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 11 Feb 2012 15:32

I understood that..And I was trying to point out that no one can change it voluntarily - either the Govt or the individual. The General was not asking for a change. He was merely telling the Govt to reflect his correct DoB as per the record kept with AGs branch which is the official one.

The SC had just gone round and round ultimately doing nothing, thereby letting the Govt off the hook. Even the Govt knows they were wrong, or else why would they seek a letter of acceptance from the General. What is in question is whether there is any legal sanctity to that letter.

To the surprise of all except the babus, the SC has verbally said it has legal sanctity! Can you quote this legal sanctity in future? no, because there is no written order about it? So can you quote SCs verbal observations as law of the land in future? No, because verbal observations are not law. Can you quote the case of the General in future if a similar case comes up? No, because the General has withdrawn his case and hence no official record of it in the court!

These are all IMVHO, and I could be wrong, because I don't know the law of the land..and I suspect if there is anything called law of the land in India..even if it is there, it can be interpreted by the judges the way they like it..particularly the Sainis, Lodhas and Gokhale types.

Mera Bharat Mahaan!

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 11 Feb 2012 15:34

I hope though the General does not put in this paper and serves his full term

Yeah Yeah..and after few days starting wondering where the so called honour of the General is..even after losing the court battle, the thick skinned General sticks around holding on to his post shamelessly

sunnydee · Post by **sunnydee** » 11 Feb 2012 15:38

Austin wrote:
nelson wrote:In this forum too, like you are doing.
Been on this board long enough to see that fringe elements will be there who will have their own rigid views on this no matter what , never mind Life goes on.

I hope though the General does not put in this paper and serves his full term but i see many like Ajai Shukla ,Maroof and few Retd Gens who feel who should put in his papers at the earliest.

Austin imho he will have to put in his papers and not because of the retired officers who are divided and have been divided since this saga began. The reason is his standing amongst the serving officers. I remember reading an article which stated that the serving officers were also divided about his actions...Basically the article stated that senior officers were more likely not to support his stand (argument being they understood the 360 degree impact of his decision) and junior officers (at least uptill the Major level) especially YO's were behind him (argument that they saw this case as a senior officer taking on the bloody civilians and showing guts-rthey are after all the young and angry brigade.). i have anectodal evidence of the same but no proof...As he did not go down fighting the officers who felt good about him for his dragging the government to the court will not have the same standing for him. If he realises that he will quit if not he will carry on...

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 11 Feb 2012 15:48

nelson wrote:^If VKS resigns this day, there will be a political seesaw within the govt. The first choice(Bikram Singh) is that of MMS and the second choice(Gen Ghosh) has the support of Pranab.

Yes, the govt may refuse to accept his resignation. If MMS has his way, which I think he will, the present vice-chief will officiate for the next three and a half months.

This is Tubelight moment.

Pranab da was Defence Minister till October 2006 and AKA took over on 24th Oct.

Cabinet Minister of Defence, from 22 May 2004 to 24 October 2006.
Things run deep, real deep.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Feb 2012 15:51

sunnydee , you have a point there but some would even argue that he went to the court on what he thought was a valid issue and lost .....one party had to loose and SC found better merit in govt argument.

Some would in the extreme argue that he took the courage to take on the govt instead of lying low and giving up , so he lost nothing

The Govt still maintained they had faith in the Chief and SC had said he was a man of Honour , these two key factors favour the Chief continuing , atleast i see no reason why he should quit.

Atleast on technical/merits ground he need not quit .... morally one cant say ever person holds himself/herself upto different moral standards.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 11 Feb 2012 15:55

^^ Yes indeed it is that real deep, the abyss.

All of us, including the SC, can escape by laying the burden on one person and his alleged 'acceptances'.
All of us, including the SC, will not have a fig leaf to hide behind when this obfuscation of the system comes back to haunt us.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 11 Feb 2012 15:59

Take this FWIW...
http://business-standard.com/india/news ... /157701/on

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 11 Feb 2012 16:06

peter wrote:
sunnydee wrote:
Well the SC had stated that no prejudice has been shown to General VKS throughout this case...Of Course doubts can be cast on the SC but remember the SC said they could have dealt with this case in two minutes but gave two hours for this case considering the importance of the COAS and the issue
I wonder if there is a constitutional breakdown here. Not being a lawyer, can the GOI set the DOB of any Indian as it feels like? Let us say tomorrow somebody gives in writing their DOB is 13th March 1985 but the Xth class certificate shows 13th March 1987. Why would a person's personal affidavit matter and not the Xth class cert?

IMHO Supreme Court's (lack of) ruling is atrocious. Only time will tell if Lodha and Co get plum posts.

He will be CJ SC if normal seniority is followed.Need to watch the other retiring in 2014. Both are good Justices and have given some nice and path breaking judgements.

Badar · Post by **Badar** » 11 Feb 2012 16:19

Austin, against that must be held the way he pursued his case - publicly, administratively and legally - he showed lack of judgment. His moral authority has seen significantly dented.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Feb 2012 16:37

Badar wrote:Austin, against that must be held the way he pursued his case - publicly, administratively and legally - he showed lack of judgment. His moral authority has seen significantly dented.

When it comes to Moral every one holds a different standard unto himself.

The first railways minister resigned when the first train casualty killed a lot of people and these days they dont go unless forced to do so. Though in both cases one can argue they are not directly responsible.

Its upto VKS to decide what moral line he will hold himself too and I atleast wont have any grudge if he continues to stay. Technically and Administratively he has every right to stay.

Badar · Post by **Badar** » 11 Feb 2012 16:53

Austin wrote:Technically and Administratively he has every right to stay.

Agree.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Feb 2012 17:05

What are the possibilities that VKS thinks its morally right to resign , puts his paper but the government would not accept his resignation and let him continue till his due date ?

I mean the government has no obligation to accept his resignation even though he may want to quit ?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 11 Feb 2012 17:13

chackojoseph wrote:Civilian causality during Army operations in Lesar

Update on the incident added.

sunnydee · Post by **sunnydee** » 11 Feb 2012 17:20

Austin wrote:What are the possibilities that VKS thinks its morally right to resign , puts his paper but the government would not accept his resignation and let him continue till his due date ?

I mean the government has no obligation to accept his resignation even though he may want to quit ?

The GoI would in my opinion leave its flanks open, if it does not accept his resignation , to the conspiracy theories, line of succession allegations. They should follow all procedures as per convention(including seniority) when selecting the chief whether it be SRG,VA or BS. This is probably the only controversial case wrt the army that a recent GoI has got right and imho it would be suicidal for them to blow it when they have played a blinder.

P.S the only area where the politicos cld be faulted, as stated in my prev posts, in this case ws that AKA sat on it for too long and was not percieved to show the urgency on the issue

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 11 Feb 2012 17:33

Badar wrote:Austin, against that must be held the way he pursued his case - publicly, administratively and legally - he showed lack of judgment. His moral authority has seen significantly dented.

No, the moral authority of the SC has been dented.

Instead of delivering justice, they have sought to save the government from severe and deserved embarrassment.

The government extracted his 2008/2009 "commitments" under duress, and the court says "please stick to your commitment". To me it seems they are legalising blackmail.

Episode reminds me of the 2008 Australia vs. India Test Match at Sydney. Court has behaved like Steve Bucknor.

Badar · Post by **Badar** » 11 Feb 2012 17:38

Austin wrote:What are the possibilities that VKS thinks its morally right to resign , puts his paper but the government would not accept his resignation and let him continue till his due date ?
I mean the government has no obligation to accept his resignation even though he may want to quit ?

If you see my list of half a dozen possible outcomes in a post above - I list it as the most probable. SC and GoI have gone out of the way to be publicly seen as not accusing VKS of malafide intentions. In view of that it is entirely possible that GoI will reject his request for relief and ask to continue in harness till his retirement. He will be something of a lame duck COAS in so far as that is applicable to his post.

Meanwhile things seem not to be going too well for VKS on the second front as well. "Gen VK Singh spoilt my reports for not changing DoB: Maj Gen"
http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-new ... 09975.aspx

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 11 Feb 2012 18:14

This one remark by the court says it all, on how the court thinks.

The Bench said Singh had the option of either withdrawing the petition or the court would pass the order after hearing him and remarked “wise people are those who move with the winds”.

Translation. Truth and Justice can suffer but go with the winds mate, for we at the SC are weaklings who also have to bow down to the direction of the winds. The most pathetic comment by sitting justices.

The petitioner asked for "recognition" of DOB. Instead of getting mired in who had what records, the truth and truth alone should have determined this issue. The SC failed in my eyes.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 11 Feb 2012 18:32

ShauryaT wrote:The SC failed in my eyes.

Lesson to all citizens: don't take on the government, especially not in the courts. So, India becomes more like Singapore every day, just in unexpected ways.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 11 Feb 2012 19:15

Yes, as some one said, yesterday was a 'Red Letter Day'. The Supreme Court of India has grossly failed the people of this nation. Rather than deliver justice by establishing truth, it chose the easy way out by bulldozing the weaker party to submission. Hopefully, this is not the end of it as the soldier in VKS is still alive and 'a soldier never quits till his death'.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 11 Feb 2012 20:02

IMO,

I had already told you that VKS going to court is futile as they already have passed some judgements in past and VKS fits into that judgement template. SC has been very clear about the issue that since it has not stopped his chances to become chief. Even Chief Justices have retired within 10 days of getting the post.

Now, what I didn't say: The four pillars, the legislature, executive, judiciary and media will never encourage armed forces to prevail at any condition.

Unfortunately, all the four pillars slept through the genuine demand. However, even when they woke up before VKS going to court, the series of issues cropped up like his accent in terms of larger interest of the organisation, the Supreme Court rulings, the law of the land etc.

A lot of apprehension privately aired to me was that while the neighbours are going through Army ----> civilian, we were going civilian ----> Army, incase SC ruled for VKS. While my argument that its ridiculous, I was told that it sets a precedent. A lot is happening via the retired officers route too, which, is not good, they say.

I had told you that only a miracle will enable him to win and it will be a case study.

Back scene, while every one is genuinely sorry about VKS situation, however, they cannot let it prevail.

This government has brought common people and military to the edge. Both anti-corruption movement and VKS going to court is a black mark on the government. Hopefully, the judiciary and media will bring this ruling party (not the legislation and exec) to its knees for the better of India.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 11 Feb 2012 20:16

Badar wrote:
sanku wrote:Badar mian, those who earn honor in service and war, do not lose it in a game of dice, let it be a lesson to those who do not understand honor.
There are dime a dozen people who lost all honor gained in service and war.

As I said, you need to understand how honor is gained. An honor in field of battle is not lost in a game of dice.

You simply choose to characterize everyone who disagrees with you as 'haters'. I find you and your methods of discourse distasteful.

You can find anything whatever, just dont ascribe statements to me. There are any number of people I have disagreed with without issues. You can ask Surya for starters.

Whether some one agrees with me or not is irrelevant, I am not too hung up on myself unlike others.

But yes, I care deeply about country and those who really care.

But personal attacks.

Second, Govt will do something to support Gen VK Singhs honor.

Frankly he doesn't deserve it either. The office of the COAS on the other hand...

Yeah speak up , your colors are showing.

Pass us the pipe will you. You have a good thing going there.
You are an ass sir. You go to the ignore bit-bucket.

Run run, I am familiar with your ilk. Personal attack to substitute meaningful content.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 11 Feb 2012 20:18

chackojoseph wrote: I had told you that only a miracle will enable him to win and it will be a case study.
.

You were right Chacko; you understood the dynamics better. I sure hope that were wrong, but despite our best prayers our worst hopes have materialized.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 11 Feb 2012 20:25

Austin wrote:
nelson wrote:In this forum too, like you are doing.
Been on this board long enough to see that fringe elements will be there who will have their own rigid views on this no matter what , never mind Life goes on.

I hope though the General does not put in this paper and serves his full term but i see many like Ajai Shukla ,Maroof and few Retd Gens who feel who should put in his papers at the earliest.

Pretty much every service man I know want the General to go.

In fact it is now the fringe elements that think that GoI is right. Some of them are of course paid hacks, like Su-Su, only a handful of folks are now in "its GoI therefore should be right" mode anymore (this typically used to be the largest section of establishment earlier)

We see this on BRF, and we see it in uniform too.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 11 Feb 2012 20:26

chaanakya wrote:
nelson wrote:^If VKS resigns this day, there will be a political seesaw within the govt. The first choice(Bikram Singh) is that of MMS and the second choice(Gen Ghosh) has the support of Pranab.

Yes, the govt may refuse to accept his resignation. If MMS has his way, which I think he will, the present vice-chief will officiate for the next three and a half months.
This is Tubelight moment.

Pranab da was Defence Minister till October 2006 and AKA took over on 24th Oct.

Cabinet Minister of Defence, from 22 May 2004 to 24 October 2006.
Things run deep, real deep.

Wow, real wow.

So the penny drops.

This is what the buggers have reduced IA to now, a bloody forum for their political games.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 11 Feb 2012 20:29

ShauryaT wrote:This one remark by the court says it all, on how the court thinks.

SC BENCH wrote:“wise people are those who move with the winds”.
.

I dont believe it, the honors should have "chullu bhar paani mein doob kar mar jana chaiye" (should die of shame) before saying something like that.

Is the place for justice or a bloody bureau for determining the direction of the "wind".

Shame.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 11 Feb 2012 20:40

In this context I would recommend a book that shows brazen politicisation of the top ranks. The author Lt Gen retd Raj Kadyan was the victim of political whims of that day.
http://www.easternbookcorporation.com/m ... tring=9283

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 11 Feb 2012 20:45

chackojoseph wrote:
I had already told you that VKS going to court is futile as they already have passed some judgements in past and VKS fits into that judgement template. SC has been very clear about the issue that since it has not stopped his chances to become chief. Even Chief Justices have retired within 10 days of getting the post.

But the petition was not about the duration of his post at all. It was about "recognition" of DOB. It was about his honor that was at stake due to the discrepancies in his DoB - a question that had arisen even leading up to his appointment as COAS. GoI is well within its right, to not extend tenure. Executive powers over the military are supreme and beyond question. VKS was not petitioning for a "right" to stay one extra year. In fact, he had made it known, it is not about tenure at all.

As for what is going on in TSP et al and the general view in the pillars of power "to not let the military prevail", the SC judges unfortunately fell for these "winds" instead of letting truth and justice prevail. What they showed is justice is not blind but bends to the winds.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 11 Feb 2012 20:58

One issue troubles me. How does someone say, I have faith in your integrity but I will not accept your contention to recognize your statement, even if true?

This is what the court has effectively told VKS. Look, the government has faith in your integrity, but this question of recognition of true DOB will not be entertained.

Does this not make the statement of "believe in your integrity" completely superfluous?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 11 Feb 2012 21:02

ShauryaT wrote:One issue troubles me. How does someone say, I have faith in your integrity but I will not accept your contention to recognize your statement, even if true?

This is what the court has effectively told VKS. Look, the government has faith in your integrity, but this question of recognition of true DOB will not be entertained.

Does this not make the statement of "believe in your integrity" completely superfluous?

No it means that even if you are right, since we dont want to wash the dirty linen in public, better to go with wind and have a compromise. You get something, govt gets something. I get spared the pressure. Why rock the boat, its anyway coming apart.

That type of argument.

--------------------

Which is sad, because the argument should be "the right thing will be done no matter the cost, since that is what the judiciary is for, to judge right from wrong"

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 11 Feb 2012 21:04

A fishy succession plan

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 11 Feb 2012 21:08

gut feel says nothing is going to come out of 2G and assorted cases.

At end all will go scot free or will be jailed when they are 90

we put way too much faith in the SC - considering the level of corruption the courts have

The babu \politico group knows too much and can tighten the noose on anyone

anyway this is now RM territory

Vashishtha · Post by **Vashishtha** » 11 Feb 2012 21:17

we put way too much faith in the SC - considering the level of corruption the courts have

The babu \politico group knows too much and can tighten the noose on anyone

Very true, especially the bolded part...

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Feb 2012 21:21

Actually the Indian Supreme Court does not matter to anyone, except Indians. So anyone who is not answerable to the Supreme court of India by virtue of his nationality or residence has nothing to worry. All time pass onlee...

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 11 Feb 2012 21:23

shiv wrote:Actually the Indian Supreme Court does not matter to anyone, except Indians. So anyone who is not answerable to the Supreme court of India by virtue of his nationality or residence has nothing to worry. All time pass onlee...

Aiyoo. Shiv is doing a lungi test on every thread these days.

Thank god I am a momeen.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Feb 2012 21:30

Sanku wrote:
Aiyoo. Shiv is doing a lungi test on every thread these days.

Thank god I am a momeen.

Well no one hesitates to do an ungli test on anything in India. It's either satyameva jayate or gand phatate.