India - The Indian Ocean Civilization & IOR

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 13 Feb 2012 17:13

All we can do is let our concerns be known. But their argument is that it is on the lines of Hembantota in SL as I posted above which is a development project. We have asked for an atoll in the south purely for defence purposes. So we'll be monitoring whatever they are doing and we'll have force to deal with any PRC attempts to cut off our ship movements between East & west. India has started basing assets there and their radar network will be connected to our systems.

See: http://www.telegraphindia.com/1090820/j ... 385890.jsp

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 13 Feb 2012 17:26

shyamd wrote:All we can do is let our concerns be known. But their argument is that it is on the lines of Hembantota in SL as I posted above which is a development project. We have asked for an atoll in the south purely for defence purposes. So we'll be monitoring whatever they are doing and we'll have force to deal with any PRC attempts to cut off our ship movements between East & west. India has started basing assets there and their radar network will be connected to our systems.

See: http://www.telegraphindia.com/1090820/j ... 385890.jsp

How are we progressing on that front by the way.

P.S: That development project is junk and a cover up. Everyone knows it. It is gradual creep. All I will say is to look at history for such examples. They are spy stations at the worst.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 13 Feb 2012 18:25

Well if the press is to be believed - then yes, quite good. Naval surveillance planes land there and some assets are based there, frigates are on routine anti piracy patrol also.

Yes agreed on development work. I told source that, his reply is we are aware. I also told him about the threat perceptions and incidents in Hambantota and how they will use Maldives as a base to spy on us an Diego Garcia. Its upto him to pass on to the Home min and highlight the threat when they consider the PRC proposals, but I've done my bit.

He said the PRC have been asking to do things in Maldives for a long time and have been rebuffed by every Maldivian govt.

But you know politicians - they are quite unpredictable.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 13 Feb 2012 20:09

Virupaksha wrote:
shyamd wrote:^^ They need to be kind to get that 2nd city development plans to pass through.
and shouldnt we be "unkind" to stop that?

But we are too afraid of gangrene spreading only, so why this flip flop !

China is trying to make friends with the new govt installed, now that the old one is gone at least for now. And we are worried about gangrene when the cancer is spreading even more faster.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 13 Feb 2012 22:11

Ramanna,why the inaction and hesitation on our part ? "Inaction" is the action plan of the mendicant of snake-oil! From 26/11 to today's outrage,the security/intel apparatus in the country is repeatedly shown to be wanting.Look how we sweep China's Himalayan incursions beneath the snow? In the current case,the "palace coup" involves two rival entities who both want to be pals with India.As long as their party was in power,we (GOI) probably felt that the islands were a safe haven and needed litttle surveillance ,taking our eyes off the ball.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 13 Feb 2012 23:14

Time to crack curse of Maldivian albatross

That is what India is paying for in the latest crisis in the atolls to its south-west that are critical for national security.

It is a matter of criminal neglect by successive Indian governments after Rajiv Gandhi’s that none of them paid attention — like a big brother should do — to the political problems in the Maldives the way New Delhi tracks and attends to similar problems in Nepal or Bhutan. There was never enough time for the Maldives.

Or willingness, for that matter. For as long as two years slightly before the Naseem episode, India did not have a high commissioner in Male.

Most Indian Foreign Service officers are unwilling to go to Male unless they are forced to because it is a diplomatic wasteland in the traditional sense and because a posting to the Maldives is often viewed as a stamp of inadequacy in later career.

During the two-year period when Male went without an Indian envoy, an attempt was made to send an otherwise competent IFS officer, who had previously suffered in his career because he dared divorce a member of one of India’s best known political families.

Indian politics was much more feudal and one-party oriented during those years and the officer paid a price for his personal choice. But he was not going to be sent to the Maldives, which he saw as another slight to his already damaged career.

Luckily for this officer, he had two dogs, which were now like his family and the Maldives does not allow any dogs for religious reasons. The only dogs that can be found anywhere in this nation of atolls are at the airport in Male to sniff passenger baggage for drugs. But those dogs are handled only by Sri Lankans under an outsourcing arrangement with Colombo.

So the officer in question put in a request that on compassionate grounds his assignment should be cancelled since he cannot take his dogs to Male. The request was granted. Another officer sought to be excused because his mother was ill and he could not go to Male.

South Block then scraped the bottom of the barrel and came up with the name of a consul general serving in North America. He too refused and there was enough political support to persuade the leadership of the IFS to thwart his posting. His plea was that he had hydrophobia, which made the Maldives unsuitable. {looks like it is a punishment posting for many}
An aside to this story is that this consul general subsequently dug his heels and stayed put in Canada for well over a year. Fortuitously, his host government discovered that he had surreptitiously acquired Canadian permanent residency for his immediate family in violation of diplomatic rules.

Canada’s foreign minister then wrote a personal letter to Jaswant Singh drawing his attention to this violation. Singh, then external affairs minister, ordered his repatriation from Canada in seven days flat.

This reporter vividly recalls a nugget on the Maldives that was doing the rounds in South Block at that time. Kanwal Sibal, who was then foreign secretary, had persuaded then Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee to go to the Maldives at the end of September 2002: it would have been the first prime ministerial visit to Male in five years.

But there was no high commissioner in place to receive Vajpayee. The story goes that Neelam Deo, who was the joint secretary in the ministry of external affairs handling the Maldives, was narrating her tale of woe to her IFS batchmate, Shashishekhar M. Gavai, then consul general in Edinburgh.

To Deo’s great surprise and relief, Gavai volunteered to go as high commissioner to Male. As soon as she put the phone down, Deo rushed into the foreign secretary’s office to convey Gavai’s readiness to move from the UK.

It is to Sibal’s credit that in the course of just two days he cut through the long bureaucratic process of appointing an envoy. It is a reflection of India’s clout in Male that the Maldivians approved Gavai’s appointment in one week and fixed a date for his presentation of credentials.

Gavai rushed from Edinburgh to take charge as high commissioner just three days before Vajpayee landed in Male on September 22, 2002. It was probably the only instance in Indian diplomacy where an IFS officer held two jobs simultaneously on two continents. Gavai went back to Edinburgh after Vajpayee left Male to relinquish his charge as consul general.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 14 Feb 2012 00:43

Not having an Ambassador is one thing, but not acknowledging the hardships in Maldives if posted is another. "Hey Folks..I'm getting a 3 year posting at Jeddah..." Which amongst us would want that or look forward to it. It's a posting that should naturally get a hardship mark. But the GoI is secular and if they classify it as hardship then i guess there are brickbats that will have political fallouts best not addressed. I think Saudi Barbaria has moved one step up and will only endorse Muslim Ambassadors. Do correct me if i am wrong..

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 14 Feb 2012 00:47

Bade wrote:
But we are too afraid of gangrene spreading only, so why this flip flop !

China is trying to make friends with the new govt installed, now that the old one is gone at least for now. And we are worried about gangrene when the cancer is spreading even more faster.

because we showed that we can cut off the gangrene if need be in 1987.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 14 Feb 2012 00:51

I am not sure, what we did was rescue Gayoom in '87. Now gangrene is on both the legs (in power and the one ousted) to use your terminology ! Whom do we rescue now ?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Feb 2012 03:43

The Maldives a "punishment posting"? Ye Gods! The furriners spend from $500 for a water bungalow upwards ,the tycoons have their own anchorage and mere mortals $400 a room in a resort region where there is 90%+ occupancy and our jokers in the MEA call it a "punishment posting? Send them instead then to South Sudan! I agree there's no glitz and glamour of an international city,but Colombo is just a short flight away and surely one can accomodate regular trips to Lanka while serving in the Maldives.If the MEA jokers don't want to serve there then send as envoy a retd. senior naval officer,Coast Guard Dir-Gen,or someone who loves the sea, who will appreciate the unique maritime beauty of the place.The best location for the IHC? A large yacht! That would be the icing on the cake,for the envoy to have his own personal yacht as a floating office,which he could use to sail around all the islands.

With our Rip Van Winkle FM,SMK,he wouldn't know the difference between the Maldives,Mauritius and Madagascar ,like that proverbial gent in the MEA who didn't even know where the Spratlys were!

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 14 Feb 2012 03:50

^^^ sending a geriatric politician or retired aapeesaars would make it look like a proconsul. Bad for SAARC mojo

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 14 Feb 2012 04:06

Maldives did not used to be a punishment posting. You got paid in dollars which was the big attraction. But no one stayed there for more than 2-3 years. With improvements in India though I guess it is punishment now. Main problem is zero cultural activity. No music, no movies except one cinema, no real TV (satellite banned) no dance, no festivals, no mixed parties, no alcohol, NO ALCOHOL...

The Hydrophobia excuse is quite serious IMHO. Every little excursion out of Male requires boat trip. The High commission there had at least 2-3 trips out every week. High commissioner often joined. The little Dhonies are not ocean going vessels. Once you leave the calm of the atoll the ocean swells are often 10'-20' feet. In rough weather it is truly terrifying. I spent many a trip draped over the sides barfing up for hours.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Feb 2012 04:08

There are heaps of seaplane-taxis too if one hates the boat rides!

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 14 Feb 2012 04:09

Try landing a sea plane in 10 foot swells.

BTW SriLanka too counts as punishment posting.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 14 Feb 2012 04:24

Theo_Fidel wrote:Try landing a sea plane in 10 foot swells.

BTW SriLanka too counts as punishment posting.

and we wonder why our neighbor hood policy is soooooo f*cked.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 14 Feb 2012 04:34

One curious thing that strikes me is that we are getting this constant complain about the perfidy of politicians who say this thing or that and pretend and are unpredictable. But no one notices or stops to think as to why, in certain societies, both opposing factions in national politics always - always - chooses to perfidiously use the same theology, and mobilize the same.

Why is it that they find it so attractive to promote the same theology even while fighting so strongly against each other? It does not happen in India - after all, where the main opposition camps take infinite care not to sponsor the same theology.

If we see politicians as the best sniffer canines of political opportunity - are Maldivean politicians simply indicating a reality of society that we choose to ignore and suppress? Is it not the society which is responsible and not politicians then - because we are simply saying that they are not consistent but onlee opportunists with no integrity of their own?

Is it not indicating of something if posters here feel that the apathy or avoidance of Male-posting is because of lack of "culture" while the society is supposed to be Bollywood-addict?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Feb 2012 04:36

Well our IFS thinks they are there to sign treaties like Tallyrand and other Western herrows did in the old days. So they yearn for Paris posting or some shoppers mecca.

So things that directly impact Indian security are not glamorous.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 14 Feb 2012 04:53

For some people its easy to see only one angle to an issue. I guess if islamism was truely that powerful in Maldives, Adaalath (built on the lines of the MB) would hold a lot more than just 3 seats. Lets see how they do in this election.

It'll be interesting to see how they performed in the last (or only free and fair) election.

A cursory glance provides the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maldivian_ ... tion,_2009

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 14 Feb 2012 05:06

Ah - the great logic of election numbers for this theology! In an islamic society - only a few direct seats are needed by a theologian network to control the regime and levers of power. By that token Pakistan itself is secular - because how many of the orthodox parties are represented in the legislatures?

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 14 Feb 2012 05:27

No. Basically, all the Islamic countries share similar or the same rules. If you go against Islam, people will unite to kick you out. It was the same rule in "secular" Syria under the Baathists as it is elsewhere. It is used to get rid of rulers all the time. Even Assad has been accused of going against Islam and laughing at it. No one knows If it is true. But the rumour is enough to motivate people. So Asad has a point to prove. So he goes to the mosque fr prayer and images of him praying are shown on state TV. But is it the main factor in his ouster? Not really. The protests started about bread and daily problems, built on this.

They made the same accusations against Gayoom. Now others made the same accusation against Nasheed. Was that the major factor in his ouster? That is the question. I guess we should ask maldivians this. Let's see what this govt does and who wins in the next elections

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 14 Feb 2012 05:37

Politicians use what they see as available and what they cannot fight against. The institutional hold of the Islamist theologians have continuously increased since the Deobandis started their blessed glances towards the island - and that started almost in the 30's. It took a long time to tick off, true. But while it was going on - GOI was hamstrung by its own self-deceptive construct about the nature of Islamism - which prevented it from taking steps that would have competed with or thwarted the institutions. Allowing the theologians to "educate" followers is the single biggest blunder, followed in the second position by assuring state protection from ideological competition [even a blasphemy law is a protective instrument designed to have the mullahs flourish] - that any power that is not committed to Islam, can make in its neighbourhood.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 14 Feb 2012 08:37

So how do patriots plan to change Maldivian theology and their Islamist culture which is at least a 1000 years old ? And how is it going to help us. Hindu Nepal has not been falling in line when we say jump either.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 14 Feb 2012 10:07

A thousand? Merely? Are you sure it was not even earlier? More than 1300 years ago perhaps? Even Hindus "inside" mock the Hindu for pointing out Islamism taking roots long ago in Maldives! So even inside India they don't jump! Their scathing and blistering wit never shines so dazzlingly as when they blast other Hindus for daring to point out tell-tale lovestories of peace of public flogging of women in Maldives. But that wit dims utterly and falls silent in blasting out the Islamists themselves. Why go so far away to Nepal!

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 14 Feb 2012 10:19

It could have been earlier for sure as Islam had already reached Kerala shores earlier. Having not read up on history of Maldives, a thousand was a safe bet to make

as Islam had already reached far and wide by then. So it was a rough timeline, but the point remains that we cannot do much about it unless they open up for evagelization by alternate theologies, voluntarily in a few generations, an unlikely outcome in reality till the rest of power centers of the theology also wanes.

So from an Indian interests point of view we left to supporting one dufus over the other, depending on the situation. Everything was fine with this arrangement (and I can hence see the lack of enthu in IFS circles for this backwater where there is little action) till China shows up. But India is caught sleeping, but that is not the Islamists fault that India is sleeping while the dragon is scouting around.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 14 Feb 2012 10:35

OT - but the claims of Islam reaching Kerala "earlier" is of rather recent and doubtful origin. And as for Maldives, it was much later than the 1000 years you claimed.

Second the very nature of that Islamization was phased in different ways. The latest piece began to happen at a time when India could have "peacefully" intervened by putting in a modernizing educational infrastructure and undermining the Saudi and Paki islamist institutional expansion. This is something the corresponding regimes form India didnt do - as it would clash with their Isalm-policy.

Making "China" the scapegoat is like saying oh we had a live bomb, and we did nothing to diffuse it, and the arrangement was fine. Now this brat turns up with a primed detonator held in his hand behind his back - and we didnt expect it.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 14 Feb 2012 10:38

Bade,

I will tell you what I am reading from your posts.

Accept islamism as fait-accompli. Do not do (or more importantly should & can not do) anything which upsets that applecart.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 14 Feb 2012 10:40

All the current Islamist resurgence is only in the last 40 years due to western sponsored cold war support.
THey will go thru a transformation and manufactured movement will also lose.

If Indians mock other indians suffering from the Islamists jihad then what else can India do.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 14 Feb 2012 10:50

Bji, I see you have formed your opinions.

But I cannot agree with it as it is not convincing.

China is not being made a scapegoat, the serious security threat to India is from China and not the Islamists in Maldives. If you are unwilling to accept that, I do not see why worry about some random Islamists in some tiny island chain. It is laughable as in all likelihood we probably have more Islamists on the mainland of India itself than in Maldives, not to mention within our immediate land neighbors including Nepal.

Are you claiming now that Islamism in its more virulent form only showed up post 1947 in Maldives ? That would be the only reason to blame India for Maldivian form of Islamism and looking the other way. Clearly Islamism is not 50 years old in Maldives if it was present in India right from the days of 1857 and way way before even. Arabs were landing dhows all along the western coastlines of India and beyond, so in all likelihood Maldivians were familiar with Arab culture all the way back to days before Mohammad too, right. Is there any evidence to say Arabs were any different pre-Islam to post-Islam. I know this is OT for this thread, but it is relevant to fully understand the explanation for each and every crises with the prism of Islamism.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 14 Feb 2012 10:59

Virupaksha wrote:Bade,

I will tell you what I am reading from your posts.

Accept islamism as fait-accompli. Do not do (or more importantly should & can not do) anything which upsets that applecart.

I think you read it wrong again. Hand wringing about Islamism without a solution to the crises is what I am pointing at. I am yet to see a solution proposed, the reason I rarely visit the TSP threads. What all this analysis states is what we all know already about Islamism. Here we have a small country, dependent on India not a nuke power like the other neighbour, not trying to overrun us by illegal migration like the one on the eastern border, and we still have no clue or handle on how to make them jump when we ask them to. At least that is what is being claimed by all isn't it here ?

The fait accompli of Islamism is by the very nature of the theology like with any theology. Hence I see no hopes of ever changing it. In the case of Maldives even the cultural or ethnic affinity to India is perhaps more remote than with a someone from BD or Pakland. So what do we bring to bear to make Maldives more Indian like even if it is the much maligned and hated modern secular Indian ethos as a beginning ?

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 14 Feb 2012 11:04

Bade,

Don't you know. Jihad came with Deobandism. Before Deobandi and JLN and UPA there was no Jihad. All was nice peaceful Islam feeding Hindus ladoo's.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 14 Feb 2012 11:17

Jihad was always there, but at some point Anglo-Americans and Islam allied themselves with each other in a tight embrace, and both started using the resources and networks of the other to climb all over all other people, gaining a new level of virulence and effectiveness.

The secular brigade in New India tried to curb neither of these two threats. The gripe is that once the Indians got their political independence, why weren't strategies put in place to destroy the influence of both.

Sino-Pak is one Axis of Two-Front Threat, but Anglo-Islam is another Axis of Two-Front Threat! Islamism has been using support from both Axis to expand its influence.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 14 Feb 2012 11:26

waah....we are scoring magnificent self goals! the mere pointing out of increasing Islamism in an offshore island is ridiculed as "happening for 1000 years". let us assume that number is right. does that mean we should sit on our asses?!

Theo ji,
please do expand on that line of thought. getting rid of the exaggeration, you are actually on the right track. yes, please do continue with an alternative version without JLN as the last British leader. I am interested to know. especially consider the attitude of other "pillars" about Islamism etc and compare them with JLN.

as for Deoband, that is basically a movement which was launched, with Brit cooperation, in the post-Maratha phase when it became clear that Islam was slowly ceding ground to SD. Deoband is the political arm of Islam in India. since 1857, this institution has had a remarkably strong hand in the shape of Islam on Indian subcontinent. I don't see how underestimating them is good for us?

Bade ji,
what is the point you are trying to make? why shouldn't we worry about Maldives turning Islamist? how can you say that you worry about India's national security and then turn around and be so callous about a close offshore island turning rabid on that path?

I don't think people really understand the importance of these island spots in IOR. I've already given one example of how Maldives became a carrot of contention for powerful players like Ottomans, Iran, Mughals, and Deccan Sultanates, with Kerala muslims assuming an interlocutory position. People really need to read up on Portuguese history in the IOR before they make smart mouthed comments about JLN/UPA etc. The tripartite struggle between Portugal, Bijapur Sultanate, and Vijayanagara is another example of Portugal using offshore islands and punching way above their weight.

the very fact that Vijayanagara or Adil Shah couldn't dethrone Portuguese from these islands, was the reason for the initial base of European colonialism in India. these islands on IOR are extremely important. we cannot be callous with statements like "happening for 1000 years". that is the height of ignorance and folly, and it can't be covered up with oh-so-witty comments....

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 14 Feb 2012 11:29

Theo_Fidel wrote:Bade,
Don't you know. Jihad came with Deobandism. Before Deobandi and JLN and UPA there was no Jihad. All was nice peaceful Islam feeding Hindus ladoo's.

Lies dont have feet to stand on. Nature have ordained Indians to remove the curse of Jihad supressing humanity .It will be in our life time . It will be arrival of India on global stage to soothen the disturbed , fearful minds.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 14 Feb 2012 11:30

Anglo-Americans also use Islamism when it suits them. Question is can India too play such games. The west has not tried to root out Islamism entirely, since the window was lost to them to do that in the last century when power equations were even favorable for them to do that, but they did not do it or did not succeed even if they wanted such an outcome.

So isn't it asking too much of a recent upstart like India to achieve what the west could not or saw benefits in keeping Islamism alive as it suits them, even if not always. Why not do that ourselves, instead of whining about how the big bad wolf of Islamism is going to eat us all apart.

Hypothetically, even after destroying Pakistan, BD and other minions in IOR with military force is not going to destroy Islamism elsewhere. The task is no less than like the crusades. This is beyond the capacities of modern nation states.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 14 Feb 2012 11:33

Bade,

There is nothing called Fait accompli- only action and inaction.

First thing we have to accept is to stop this rubbish of fait accompli. Let us see the scale of maldives. maldives total population is 25 lakhs, one major city and all it took for its president to run for its life was 200 armed men. Are you seriously telling me that if we want to and spend 2-15B$(less than 3% of our forex kitty) tomorrow, we cant rupture these networks? who are we kidding sir with this rubbish?

If we cant handle the islamists in a max 20 lakh of muslim population at a strategic out post, does anyone think we got a chance in our 200 lakh?

Theo ji,
6 nda years out of 65. so yes NDa/Vajpayee definitely around 10% of blame if that is what you are worried about.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 14 Feb 2012 11:37

I thought that BRF had gone past the above level of ignorance about Islamism. i'm sorry, but that post is the most delusional one I've seen on BRF. it far exceeds anything that even somnath could have come up with when he was here.

I'm sorry if it offends you bade ji, but when you are at the level of speculating whether we can use Islamism for our benefit, especially in the context of a coup where Islamists have allegedly gained power, then there is nothing else I can say.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 14 Feb 2012 11:38

I am not averse to using military force for Indian interests. So what has stopped successive Indian govts if the solution is so simple ?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 14 Feb 2012 11:43

Virupaksha
Not big a problem which one properly armed Brigade cant handle . If feeding the fishes around Maldives serve Indian strategic interests then lets not make them fast longer than necessary. But we must know the whole truth before taking any action.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 14 Feb 2012 11:47

what makes you think Indian govts didn't take military action? RG did. but now we are getting into the whole notion of GoI being supremely "free" in making its decisions. but this assumption itself is contested. there was a huge discussion on this long time ago. the whole sequence of events from 1947 will be brought in. and once that happens, the road inevitably leads the "foundational" nature of the Indian state apparatus that was crystallized under British rule and seamlessly continued under the "pillars" of Independence....

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 14 Feb 2012 11:50

devesh wrote:I'm sorry if it offends you bade ji, but when you are at the level of speculating whether we can use Islamism for our benefit, especially in the context of a coup where Islamists have allegedly gained power, then there is nothing else I can say.

One Islamist has taken power from the other, unless the claim that the previous version was more secular is true. But there have been counter claims to that.

Please educate how Islamism is the reason why India is slowly eroding its power base or control over Maldives. If Maldives would have been a benevolent X'tian theocracy, still India would have been found sleeping while China and other western powers would have been found interfering in Maldivian affairs. Such a scenario is equally plausible. Sri Lanka is a prime example of that.