Jhujar ji, sama daana danda bheda. I have highlighted daana in my post.Jhujar wrote:Virupaksha
Not big a problem which one properly armed Brigade cant handle . If feeding the fishes around Maldives serve Indian strategic interests then lets not make them fast longer than necessary. But we must know the whole truth before taking any action.
There are 10,000 steps which can be taken before we reach a stage where we have to do the above.Bade wrote:If one has to take the security threat from Maldives seriously, the only option for India as a first step is to dissolve the Maldivian constitution and make it part of the Union. The direct threat is to the Lakshwadeep islands getting radicalized with a Maldivian base due to proximity. Why cannot that excuse be used towards the first step ?
so we can all learn.3-4 are already listed in the previous page.Bade wrote:Please do list them at least
In short 1, 3 and 5 are not done. (I am terribly sorry but your beliefs do not count, we need solid open source data for some thing as significant as this, and there would be, this is not covert stuff)shyamd wrote:Proposal submitted earlier - Addu atoll in the south for an old RAF base. Naval assets will be permanently stationed there. Hence the uptick in surveillance flights which some I think are based permanently there now. India is currently integrating coastal radars on all maldvian atolls which will be hooked up to our national intelligence grids. Warship visits every month I believe. Transfer of dhruv's and vessels also on going to help deal with piracy.
Philip; I am sure that there are Jaffana/Plantation Tamils in Sri Lanka who are tired of waiting and if the opportunity for getting a handle on new fishing areas + land presents themselves they can step in.Philip wrote: PS:Sanku.Move Lankan Tamils to the Maldives?That's as bad as the Brits moving the Tamils from India to all parts of the world as indentured slaves! In any case there is so little land in the Maldives for the Maldivians themselves,who are afeared of being drowned in rising seas due to global warming,Doing so would also create another ethnic battlefield in the islnds between the originals (Maldivians) and invaders (Tamils).
Secondly,which Tamils? The Jaffna Tamils consider themselves as "kings of the island (Lanka)",the Plantation Tamils just want statehood in Lanka,granted to them,and the Colombo "Indian" Tamils,which omprises a motley group of mainly S.Indian businessmen,just want to live happily in Colombo and make money. Not a cat in acute hunger belonging to a Tamil would want to go to the Maldives for all the "Maldy fish" in the world!
Naval base is being kept under wraps looks like.New Delhi, apart from hydrographic surveys and other military assistance, is also assisting Male to set up a network of ground radars in all its 26 atolls and link them with the Indian military surveillance systems. Antony, incidentally, just last week had held that the Navy was mandated to be "a net security provider" for island nations in the Indian Ocean.
http://saarc.com/travel/country/maldive ... rporation/• India will permanently base two helicopters in the country to enhance its surveillance capabilities and ability to respond swiftly to threats. One helicopter from the Coast Guard is likely to be handed over during Antony’s visit while another from the Navy will be cleared for transfer shortly.
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... ratroopersThe president of Maldives Mr.Mohamed Nasheed and the Indian Defense Minister A.K. Anthony after extensive meetings on different levels of both governments announced a series of steps both countries have taken to ensure safety and territorial sovereignty. Recent attacks of Somalian pirates in the far regions near the African coast has alerted countries as far away as Maldives.
Under the defense pact, joint Maldivian and Indian Navy and coast guard vessels will be patrolling the Maldivian Exclusive Economic Zone and the boarders of the Maldives. After the Mumbai attacks India has stepped up maritime surveillance around its territorial waters. Both Maldivian and Indian authorities stressed the importance of preventing possible terrorist attacks, earlier in the year the Maldivian coast guard with areal surveillance from the Indian Navy intercepted and sunk a suspected terrorist vessel smuggling weapons crossing the Maldivian Borders, its destination was believed to be Sri Lanka, but cannot be confirmed.
India has agreed to provide Maldives with coastal radars which would eventually be linked to a South Asian Seas Defense command post in India, currently Maldives has only two coastal radars protecting its twenty two Atolls. Further more a twenty-five bed Military hospital was also donated by the Indian Military, the Maldivian Defense Force has many doctors and specialists trained but currently lacks an official Military hospital. A press release from the MNDF (Maldivian National Defense Force) revealed that while this is a military hospital , civilians will also have the possibility of receiving treatment specially in emergency cases.
Maldives has also begun setting up an Air wing for its military. Primarily the air wing would provide surveillance and rescue operations. India has pledged technical assistance to train Maldivian pilots and maintenance crews while donating two helicopters to the Maldivian Defense Force. As Maldives is an island nation the importance of fast access to advanced medical facilities is crucial, currently sea planes are hired commercially for such medical evacuations to bring patients suffering from critical injuries and accident to hospitals and over seas.
Some critics say that this could jeopardize the sovereignty of Maldives both Indian and Maldivian authorities reassures that these are necessary steps to international anti -terrorism safety and there is definitely not going to be any interference from Indian authorities in Maldives. There has been some rising tensions in the region with China setting up a base in Sri Lanka which India has always viewed as its own back yard, and the defense pact with Maldives could be a step to re-establish themselves in the Indian Ocean. Maldives is a signatory to the non-aligned movement and enjoys excellent relations both commercially and diplomatically with both India and China.
Thanks.As part of the overall strategy to prevent China from further spreading its influence in the Indian Ocean Region (IOR), India is sending a Dornier aircraft to Maldives to help the country in maritime surveillance.
Defence ministry sources said an Indian Navy Dornier would begin its maritime reconnaissance missions from Male over the weekend. This comes in the backdrop of defence minister A K Antony's recent visit to Maldives, where he promised measures to bolster defence cooperation with Maldives.
Bade wrote:One Islamist has taken power from the other, unless the claim that the previous version was more secular is true. But there have been counter claims to that.devesh wrote:I'm sorry if it offends you bade ji, but when you are at the level of speculating whether we can use Islamism for our benefit, especially in the context of a coup where Islamists have allegedly gained power, then there is nothing else I can say.
Please educate how Islamism is the reason why India is slowly eroding its power base or control over Maldives. If Maldives would have been a benevolent X'tian theocracy, still India would have been found sleeping while China and other western powers would have been found interfering in Maldivian affairs. Such a scenario is equally plausible. Sri Lanka is a prime example of that.
Towards the early 1990s, men came together to form a more moderate version of Maldivian extremism, beginning a Neo-Salafi Movement. This philosophy called for a rejection of violence and sought to provide a facelift for what they identified as the “Wahhabi Myth.” This group sought to redefine people’s perception of “Wahhabis” by clarifying Salafi ideology and promoting the Hanbali School of Legal Theory (the most conservative of the four recognized schools of Sunni Islamic thought) upon which Salafism is based. Salafi ideology calls for a return to the principles, practices, and the way of life represented in the Arabian Gulf during the time of the Prophet (PBUH), while scorning all forms of interpretation. Today, due to our increasingly polarized society, the scholars following this school of thought represent some of the more moderate voices in our community.
Unfortunately, along with the Neo-Salafi Movement, radical Jihadhi groups developed in the country – some along the same old lines and with the same ties that had once been predominant during Former President Gayoom’s early years. Among this new group were many of the young men who were recruited in various institutions and Madrasas in Pakistan. Terrorist organizations like Lashkar-e-Taiba (the largest and most violent Islamist organization in South Asia) preyed upon Maldivian students preaching a message of intolerance and calling for violent upheaval in the name of Pan Islamism. Maldivians, having gone to these institutions in Pakistan in order to learn about Islam were easy targets as this philosophy of hatred was structured around the Salafi principles that are being taught in these Saudi funded institutions.
These young men then returned to Maldives bringing videos, books and recordings of the call for violent Jihad. Men like Ali Jaleel (Moscowge’) choose to approach young men in secondary institutions of learning like the Center for Higher Secondary Education (CHSE). In Male’, Jaleel would hold classes for young people in order to indoctrinate them with his ideology of hate. And yet, corrupting the young people of our country was not enough for him. In late 2006, he was caught along with six others trying to board a plane from Colombo to Qatar – attempting to go on Jihad. However, the previous government chose to sentence him to only two years of house arrest for a lesser crime, in spite of the evidence of his fundamentalism. Luckily for the young men who would become future victims of his ideology, it seems that he was finally able to go on Jihad; as sometime around May 2009 his family was informed of his demise in holy war (undocumented by our government till recently). But extremism in our country is not just one man or a rag tag group of miscreants.
The extremist groups within the Maldives have been highly organized, well funded, and extremely capable. By 2004, the groups were well developed and had clear hierarchical structures. Along with Ali Jaleel’s group, there was the Muhajireen which was based off of the ideology professed in the website: www.azzam.com (now disabled because it was one of the most prolific supporters of holy war on the internet). This group came to be known to most Maldivians as the “Dot Com” group because of their online origins. In the aftermath of the Tsunami, these two groups joined forces creating leaflets and audio cassettes supporting their radical ideology. They then sent delegations across the nation to every atoll and designated members of their group to stay and promote their views.
The Tsunami is God’s Wrath
They spread the word of fear and hate and violence. They chastised our population, telling them that they were responsible for the Tsunami that came. That their irreverence and hedonism resulted in the worst socio-economic disaster of our time. Unchecked, these people manipulated, harassed, and cajoled much of our population into adopting Salafi style ideology. These groups were organized and dangerous, and by 2006 there was an estimated 1000 hardcore Jihadists nationally who support going to war abroad. Men like Abu Qatada (an Islamist Jihadist associated with Al-Qaeda) have been in direct contact with Maldivians over the telephone. Even today, organizations like Jamiyathul Salaf refuse to reject current violent conflicts like that in Chechnya. Political parties like Adaalath would refuse recognizing Israel and a “two-state solution,” which the Palestinian people now call for, because of their adherence to some values of hate that are predominant in some Arab populations of the Middle East.
shyamd wrote:.......
Well we would station if we had enough fleet - as of now gifting a few vessels/heli's and deploying surveillance a/c permanently suffices for now. Our fleet is over extended with other requirements guarding shipping through the suez and Mauritius, Seychelles, Madagasgar coasts. It will only grow with time, and operationally SNC now includes Maldives! You can't just wave a wand and say have 2 ships there and have an air force there and expect it to happen overnight. It takes time to plan and do such things in a phased manner. Their officers visit ANC to learn how we do things and will eventually integrate.Sanku wrote: ShyamD-ji; I may be horribly dumb, but can you please let me know where the material that you posted says the following
1) Get into a tri-lateral SL/India/Maldives agreement for peace prosperity and security in the Indian ocean. Station a joint Indian/SL naval fleet to help Maldives against Somalian pirates.
Posted evidence of above.3) Ask for a few bases for permanent moorings.
They have their own. Free and fair elections - there was some complaints on rigging but it wasn't too bad. Otherwise opposition would have kicked off like in many other countries around the world and like we saw just last week. The elections and the constitution is fine. Nasheed lost the support of his people and the MNDF who asked him to step down (in a coup like manner). But when they host the next elections, Nasheed will come back to power.5) Offer Indian constitution as a template and services of election commission to carry out "free fair" elections.
Why not.... but the decision will be taken at the right time and no one is going to impose. If there is a threat, we will deploy before hand. In this case, we were trying to sort out the situation since December. You ignore what Nasheed did prior to his ouster.If it was not amply clear, I am asking for a large Indian force, permanently stationed in maldives, taking care of their security (which in turn will ensure that no coups happen)
I admit you have not taken a stab about cultural changes, however I fail to see how any thing you posted remotely comes close to points 1, 2 and 5.
Integrating coastal radar network and connecting it to your hub (so that you can actually know about pirates/terrorists trying to take over an island before and send someone to do somethign about it), surveillance flights and asking for a base is low level.All that you have posted suggests joint patrols (who cares really), and some low level mil freebies.
Surely we can at least sanitize the local area around Maldives now, if we combine the economic approach with the growing Naval clout?Theo_Fidel wrote:India's approach has always been to stay visibly clear of politics and control the economics. If we want to change this approach we will need a different military. One that can control the entire Indian ocean against challengers.
Shyamd-ji; quite frankly I am not looking for reasons as to why things are not happening, I personally have had a full of that over last 8 years.shyamd wrote:
Deployments are based on threat perception and our resources are scarce as it is. Just pray that we don;'t have delays in shipbuilding (Read 6 LST's).
At some point there will be unpleasantness. 
sshh, where is islamism in maldives. All of the hindutva-vaadis are chasing mirages. What is happening in maldives isnt islamism.Maldives Museum Reopens Minus Smashed Hindu Images
The Maldives' national museum reopened Tuesday without some of its most valuable exhibits a week after a mob of suspected religious extremists smashed images from the pre-Islamic era of this Indian Ocean archipelago.
About 35 exhibits — mostly images of Buddha and Hindu gods — were destroyed. Some of the artifacts dated to the sixth century, museum director Ali Waheed said.
Waheed says 99 percent of the Maldives' pre-Islamic artifacts from before the 12th century, when most inhabitants were Buddhists or Hindus, were destroyed.
....
The mob of suspected Muslim extremists attacked the museum during the Maldives' unfolding political crisis. The country has seen weeks of protests and last week President Mohamed Nasheed stepped down. He later said he was forced to resign at gunpoint.
...
"We are very sad. This is the physical and archaeological evidence of the country, we have nothing to show (of the pre-Islamic history)," Waheed said.[/b]
Practicing or preaching any religion other than Islam is prohibited by the Maldives constitution, and there have been increasing demands for conservative Muslim policies to be implemented.
Last year, a mob destroyed a monument given by Pakistan marking a South Asian summit with an engraved image of the Buddha in it. Pakistan is an Islamic republic that also has a Buddhist history.
.........
But Maldives' new President Mohammed Waheed Hassan rejected claims of rising Muslim extremism in the country.
"I don't tolerate it and it is not acceptable at all," he told reporters last week after the museum attack. "I can assure you there is no extremist violent action in this country."
Police spokesman Ahmed Shyam said investigations are ongoing into the museum attack, but no one has been arrested.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wir ... zrx8sWmgoq
Bji,brihaspati wrote:Virupaksha ji,
should you say such things? After all, many are convinced - that Islam was firmly planted and immediately cleared off the place of otherreligions - by Arab dhows- 1000 or even more centuries ago. That belief is of course not faith or opinion. But yours and Surasenaji's might just well be deemed to be so.
I completely agree it is not extremism. This is a part of mainstream Islam itself. Literally every 2nd line in the Koran and Islamic manuals openly advocate destruction of idols and images..Destroying idols and breaking images isnt extremism only...
hnair saar; I fully agree, when I asked for stationing of troops, it was with the caveat of a different India in which folks like me have their voices heard and not marginalized.hnair wrote: Sanku-saar, I dont think our stationing folks there will help - they will watch quietly and not interfere due to GoI's well known reluctance. Late Shree Rajiv was an exception, because he was new and thought like a young jingo at that time.
" line of argument for "strategic inaction"Yes it is done. I posted the article to confirm we have "asked for a base" as you put it. Joint Naval forces - we don't even have enough fleet to police certain parts of our coast. Only after 26/11 we have ordered more boats. But yet, we provide the maldivians equipment to look after themselves. If you mean an intervention force against coup's. SNC includes Maldives now, so over time it our permanent assets there will only grow and deployments are based on threat perceptions.Sanku wrote: Shyamd-ji; quite frankly I am not looking for reasons as to why things are not happening, I personally have had a full of that over last 8 years.
In this case I have a simple question --
Do you agree that the points that I have laid out are yet to be done by India?
Yes or no will suffice please.
Shows the complicated mess as three different IFS officers were already involved before the Secy got invovlved.No breakthrough has been made in formation of the national unity government more than a week after the transfer of power in The Maldives, prompting India to depute its Foreign Secretary Ranjan K.Mathai to hold urgent consultation with all stakeholders to find a way forward.
Even those in the Maldivian Democratic Party - to which former President Mohamed Nasheed belongs –who had toyed with the idea of talking to the new government are reportedly holding back: they want to watch the MDP rally that Mr. Nasheed has called for February 17 ahead of making their moves. With the new government’s every move watched by both the international community and the media-savvy MDP men, there appears to be a fair amount of confusion within the government on how to keep MDP men away from reaching Male, the capital, which forms the venue for the Friday rally.
The Indian Foreign Office has augmented its personnel in the Male mission soon after the changeover. Though The Maldives is of great strategic importance to India, its mission strength is the least in the South Asian region. One of the first steps that MEA took was to re-detail a senior Joint Secretary, who was on a tour to Jaffna, to Male. The Joint Secretary, Malay K.Sinha, has been making his own assessment and has been working in tandem with the Indian High Commission.
After the ground analysis made by the Indian Envoy M. Ganapathi, who is Secretary (West) in the MEA, one more officer of note – this time from a different service but seconded to the MEA – was pulled back from another posting and brought into Male. The officer, Narayanaswamy, credited with making the Maldives chapter India Club and many other social fora active in the archipelago, is back in The Maldives to augment the strength of the High Commission and provide more accurate assessment of the ground situation.
Mr.Mathai, who has been in constant touch with the situation, arrived in Male late on Wednesday. He met Mr.Nasheed and the new President Waheed Hasan Manik, and is also slated to meet the Chief Justice and the Speaker, ahead of flying back to New Delhi on Thursday afternoon.
The Commonwealth Ministerial delegation is expected to reach Male on Friday for its assessment on the changeover. One Maldivian National Defence Force source said that the MNDF was willing to depose before any panel if it would help clear the air on the change over.
The assessment of the Indian and a few other delegations seem to indicate that the stalemate has no easy solutions. Mr.Nasheed, with his comments against the resort owners, has alienated any remaining friend he has had in that group. Now, almost all the resort owners have ganged up against Mr.Nasheed. The Opposition has formed a rainbow coalition, and consists of the fundamentalist Islamist elements to the sober centre-right parties. Hence, barring MDP politicians, all senior politicians are on the same page. The Police and the MNDF, both repeatedly accused of helping the coup, are largely behind the new government.
The MDP says that it has the support of the people, and that only an election can prove this.
Yes it is done. I posted the article to confirm we have "asked for a base" as you put it.shyamd wrote: [quote="shyamd"
Yes or no will suffice please.
We will never have enough, really speaking. Yet we take part in operations around Somlia cost, all such can be based out of Maldives.Joint Naval forces - we don't even have enough fleet to police certain parts of our coast.
I dont want Maldivians to look after themselves all alone, I want to to be there to help.But yet, we provide the maldivians equipment to look after themselves.
Over time eh, so basically not done. What and when it will be done? Wake me up AFTER something is done. This GoI has two things in plenty, promises of future and excuses for present and past.If you mean an intervention force against coup's. SNC includes Maldives now, so over time it our permanent assets there will only grow and deployments are based on threat perceptions.
Yeah we have to cut out some vote buying schemes like NREGS. Terrible. I am talking about Indian interests here, not vacuous excuses like "guns vs butter".There is a price to pay for being poor upto 2001/2. You do understand that? You do understand that, if we start giving out freebies like bases etc you have to pay for it - that means cutting it off somewhere like education, roads etc. Our resources are so scarce right now anti-maoist ops don't even have enough air support - hence the order for 80 Mi17V's.
Yeah, just like you wanted to give more than 8 years to judge Manmohan.It takes time to do these things, can't just wave a wand and expect things to happen overnight.
No one is asking for over night, but at this rate it wont happen in seven Gandhi generation, when Priyanka Wadehra sons will be running the rump of India left till then into deep hole.I want India to have a world class education system, a world class healthcare system and every citizen to have benefited from economic development, but I know its not going to happen overnight.
Theo_Fidel wrote: Maybe they can all go the Sri Lanka then, as they seem so generous and peaceful....
Sure, but the 3000 miles would not matter if we had a permanent base there. There are always solutions if there is a will.Theo_Fidel wrote: Like I said, you want more, you need a offensive military capability. This is 3000 km from Indian mainland type territory.
All at the right time.Sanku wrote: No Sir, I did not say we should "ask" for a base, and go to sleep. I said said we should ask for a base GET a base now.
Clearly we do not have a base. Also that base request has to be read with other 5 points. It is not for "something" it is for deployment of a sufficient naval and land forces
No plans are to be based in Madagascar (undeclared) Oman (which we already use for anti piracy surveillance flights). Far closer to the action and lease of an island off Mauritius for a full fledged base.We will never have enough, really speaking. Yet we take part in operations around Somlia cost, all such can be based out of Maldives.
SNC has incorporated Maldives into the security net and planning.I dont want Maldivians to look after themselves all alone, I want to to be there to help.
Don't need to base assets there right now. But we already base surveillane flights from there. No major threat from there so rest of the assets are deployed in other places. They ask us to deploy assets for major summits etc.Over time eh, so basically not done. What and when it will be done? Wake me up AFTER something is done. This GoI has two things in plenty, promises of future and excuses for present and past.
Is development not Indian interests too? Need to put it all in a list and do things according to priorty.Yeah we have to cut out some vote buying schemes like NREGS. Terrible. I am talking about Indian interests here, not vacuous excuses like "guns vs butter".
They rely on us for economics and have done for a long time. Current security infra is gettng enhanced and will grow.Needless to say, a strong control over Maldives could also protect and enhance economic intrests as well and make more money.
Hahaha. It takes time to do it but anyway eveything is in motion, you will see the fruits soon.Yeah, just like you wanted to give more than 8 years to judge Manmohan.
[/quote]No one is asking for over night, but at this rate it wont happen in seven Gandhi generation, when Priyanka Wadehra sons will be running the rump of India left till then into deep hole.