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Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
nachiket
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby nachiket » 17 Feb 2012 05:15

I was hoping for an exclusive Rafale-only home base like what Lohegaon is for the MKIs and Gwalior for the M2ks. 8)

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Rakesh » 17 Feb 2012 05:21

^^^ I was hoping my last name would be Rothschild...but alas we can only work with what we have :)

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby negi » 17 Feb 2012 05:33

^ Change it to Gandhi trust me it works in desh. :mrgreen:

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby srai » 17 Feb 2012 08:12

nachiket wrote:
Singha wrote:jodhpur is a huge shakina kind of base. hashimara is not big enough to scare nepal even.
someone needs a huge dose of civil construction.


Jodhpur apparently, has no less than 7 IAF squadrons deployed there including 4 fighter squadrons (3 Mig-27 and 1 Bison). Perhaps the IAF is planning to convert one of the Mig-27 squadrons to the Rafale when it starts coming in.


First base to receive Rafale will be Ambala with the first Rafale squadron arriving between 2015-2017 directly from France and the second squadron from HAL will come between 2018-2020.

By 2020, MiG-27s and MiG-21s would have been retired (or on a verge of retirement). First Rafale squadron moving into Jodhpur will be sometime around 2020 or 2023 (depending on if the IAF wants to base Rafale in Hashimara before Jodhpur).

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Kartik » 17 Feb 2012 08:45

Kersi D wrote:.
I though the Gwalior was decided as one of the bases.

I think Jodhpur has / will get SU 30MKI. I would not like to put both the frontline aircraft on a single base

K


Since Gwalior hosts 3 squadrons of Mirage-2000s which are not due to retire till 2035, in addition to perhaps a detachment of Su-30MKIs, there may be no space, literally speaking, for any Rafales there.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby George J » 17 Feb 2012 09:06

negi wrote:^ Change it to Gandhi trust me it works in desh. :mrgreen:


Rajive Gandhi....Rahul Gandhi.....Rakesh Gandhi.... :mrgreen:

It's got a nice ring to it.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Singha » 17 Feb 2012 09:18

BBC = with germany deciding to shut all its nuclear plants in phased manner, UK really had no other options but to throw in lot with France. perhaps Sweden will be roped in too.

UK and France sign nuclear energy agreement

The UK is to sign a deal with France to strengthen co-operation in the development of civil nuclear energy.

The government says it reiterates the UK's commitment to nuclear energy "as part of a diversified energy mix".

The coalition says the agreement will create a number of commercial deals in the nuclear energy field, worth more than £500m and creating 1,500 UK jobs.

Defence will also be on the agenda as PM David Cameron and President Nicolas Sarkozy hold a summit in Paris.

An announcement about joint development of a future unmanned aircraft is also expected.

'Joint framework'

"This joint declaration will signal our shared commitment to the future of civil nuclear power, setting out a shared long term vision of safe, secure, sustainable and affordable energy, that supports growth and helps to deliver our emission reductions targets," a statement from Downing Street said.

Personal relations between Nicolas Sarkozy and David Cameron have not been warm of late.

There have been tetchy remarks flying in both directions, the French irritated by the British veto on the European fiscal treaty, the British annoyed by what seem to be sometimes rather gratuitous criticisms of the UK economy coming out of Paris.

Summits like this oblige a different tone and so the emphasis will be on the long-term and deeper shared interests between the countries, especially in the civil nuclear and military fields.

For Mr Sarkozy, this could be one his last encounters as president with David Cameron. In the polls he's way behind the socialist challenger Francois Hollande, who incidentally will himself be visiting London at the end of this month.

The two governments will work together with the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) "to strengthen international capability to react to nuclear emergencies and establish a joint framework for cooperation and exchanging good practice on civil nuclear security".

The move comes 11 months after the tsunami in Japan which wrecked the nearby the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant, leaking radioactive material into the air and sea.

UK and French public and private sector bodies in the civil nuclear power industry will also work more closely in a number of areas.

These include education and training; research and development, and security.

"As two great civil nuclear nations, we will combine our expertise to strengthen industrial partnership, improve nuclear safety and create jobs at home," said Mr Cameron.

negi
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby negi » 17 Feb 2012 10:08

Ok enough leg pulling else Rakman might get an excuse to back pedal on his mithai promise; Sirji Akula nahi to Raffy's empty weight equivalent of barfi too will be fine (we all are getting old). :oops:

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Kersi D » 17 Feb 2012 11:01

negi wrote:^ Change it to Gandhi trust me it works in desh. :mrgreen:


And all your problems will be "sweetly" solved.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby keshavchandra » 17 Feb 2012 13:49

MOD is looking for Israeli Litening pod for rafale..its again MKI...izing deal like. But it would be a new experience for France to deal with such mix platform with any other country. Future possibilities are lean or slim.
But the offered pods with Rafale deal are also a clas (even USAF uses these fpods for groung opt.), so wht MOD and IAF are interested in isreali one. Is it the outcome of there experience with MKI performance?
Israeli systems in the new Indian fighter aircraft

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Singha » 17 Feb 2012 13:52

well the french will have to play ball this time. the architecture and fittings will be frozen in next couple months and litening4 >> damocles is surely in it.

member_22713
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_22713 » 17 Feb 2012 13:57

Germany has shut down its nuclear power plants and is buying power from neighbouring Czech Republic's existing nuclear power plants (where operations costs are lower than Germany) and also new nuclear power plants are coming up in Czech Republic (some even with German knowhow) !

That shows German double standards !!

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Singha » 17 Feb 2012 14:07

That shows German western double standards !!

they are all like that when it suits them.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Rahul M » 17 Feb 2012 14:11

Rakman, I didn't get any mithai. :evil:

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_22605 » 17 Feb 2012 16:03

The MKIized rafale will also include our indigenous communication eqpt, IFF and if the future maybe our own MC, VOR/ILS, DME etc very much like the MKI as the IAF seems particular about stuff like comms etc

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby koti » 17 Feb 2012 16:30

When we say a Rafa costs a 100 Million dollars, What will it cost the HAL to manufacture it?
Who pays the worker and raw material price? Dassault?

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby arunsrinivasan » 17 Feb 2012 16:39

The IDRW article seems to indicate that while India wants to use Israeli systems, France / Dassault will not allow it. Unless we have more hard information that India will get its way on this, expecting an MKI'sation of Rafale seems unrealistic. We also have M2K upgrade deal, where we ended up with Dassault even though the Israeli option would have been cheaper. Does anyone have more information on this issue?

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_22605 » 17 Feb 2012 17:01

Whatever be the OEM's stand, we cannot have multiple communication eqpts and having different systems in turn increases the cost and adds to the maintenance headaches. The french are desperate and the INCOM does not need any extensive mods on the aircraft, its just a different LRU requiring a slight modification to the MC and as far as i know, even the M2k has a lot of HAL(hyd) eqpt and by the way in most cases(contrary to popular belief) our systems are better than firang stuff and better suited to our conditions(More importantly)

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby karan_mc » 17 Feb 2012 18:15

it is known that India is primarily interested in Rafael’s Litening pod, which is intended for navigation and locating ground targets.


Rafael’s Litening pod seems to be favored one, since it has been used with MKi and Tejas , but French Rafale use Thales Damocles targeting pod ,article basically talks only about Litening pod no indication of MKi zing Rafale . and by the way same Thales made Damocles targeting pod is used in Malaysian Su-30MKM

Israeli systems in the new Indian fighter aircraft?

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby rahuls » 17 Feb 2012 18:56

Just saw Headlines Today, Rafale deal in Turbulence as 2 members of MoD questioned the process of arriving at L1. It seems they are members of contract negotiating committee.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby shukla » 17 Feb 2012 19:07

rahuls wrote:Just saw Headlines Today, Rafale deal in Turbulence as 2 members of MoD questioned the process of arriving at L1. It seems they are members of contract negotiating committee.


hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.........interesting...here we go again..

and meanwhile Antony boasts about the uncorruptable transparent process...

India says it is negotiating contract with Dassault
Indian Express

“Already the Contract Negotiations Committee (CNC) has started for the procurement of Rafale,” Defence Minister A K Antony said.

Antony warned the officials and vendors involved in the process against indulging in any wrongdoing saying “everybody should be careful.... Nobody can corrupt India system. We will not tolerate this”. He said the contract negotiations take place for over six months and after that the deal will have to pass through eight stages.

“It will have to pass through scrutiny in eight stages. After CNC, it will come to Defence Ministry. In ministry also, there will be minimum four stages of scrutiny by Defence Finance. Then it will go to independent monitors appointed by the CVC and then go to the National Security Council Secretariat and Finance Ministry,” Antony said.

The Defence Minister made it clear that Indian foreign policy and relations with any country have no connection with procurement of weapon systems. “Our foreign policy and relations are one thing but our procurements are not based on political considerations. Procurement is based on trials by services and lowest price. There will be no other consideration,” Antony said. At every stage before reaching the Cabinet Committee on Security, the minister said there will be “scrupulous scrutiny” and “total transparency” would be maintained.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby shukla » 17 Feb 2012 19:09


naird
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby naird » 17 Feb 2012 19:16

rahuls wrote:Just saw Headlines Today, Rafale deal in Turbulence as 2 members of MoD questioned the process of arriving at L1. It seems they are members of contract negotiating committee.



Ohh man...Looks like Brits have switched on the moles and is playing dirty games..Now is the real time when we need magic from St. Antonio...

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby krishnan » 17 Feb 2012 19:28

how come no one is questioning the C-130 deal ??

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Austin » 17 Feb 2012 21:36

MoD officials question Rafale deal

The country's biggest defence deal for the purchase of 126 Rafale fighter jets, estimated to be worth around Rs.62,000 crore, seems to be running into rough weather.

Top government sources said on Friday that two senior officials of the ministry of defence (MoD), who are members of the contract negotiation committee, have questioned the methods adopted by it to conclude that French company Dassault's Rafale had the lowest bid for the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal.

The contract negotiation committee comprises senior officials from the MoD and the Indian Air Force.

The contract is yet to be vetted by the ministry of finance before it is finally approved by the Cabinet Committee on Security.

Rafale was declared as the lowest bid after the evaluation of the commercial bids made by the different companies to the MoD. Rafale had pipped British fighter jet Eurofighter Typhoon, while the other rivals from the US, Russia and Sweden were eliminated in different stages of competition.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby tsarkar » 18 Feb 2012 00:07

^^ Raising questions and making notes on files is a common CYA exercise by bureaucrats. It is similar to asking a car mechanic, "why did you remove topmost bolt first instead of the lowermost bolt in the wheel while replacing the flat tyre?" followed by a note "it is possible to replace a flat tyre by removing the left, right & lower bolt first in the wheel instead of the top one as done by this mechanic"

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby nachiket » 18 Feb 2012 00:16

Austin wrote:The contract is yet to be vetted by the ministry of finance before it is finally approved by the Cabinet Committee on Security.

The biggest hurdle is yet to be crossed.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Avid » 18 Feb 2012 00:45

krishnan wrote:how come no one is questioning the C-130 deal ??


The C-130 deal was through FMS route, i.e. we purchase is government to government, and not from Lockheed directly. The pricing etc. for FMS is arrived at differently. It is also the reason for the speedy negotiations and contract execution.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Vipul » 18 Feb 2012 00:58

Rafale will find that these "Contract Negotiators" are now coming into their real avatar of "Kickbacks Negotiators".

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby skganji » 18 Feb 2012 01:53

Screw th MoD officials. Always placing hurdles have become a phenomenon for GOI. Airforce is the end customer and their decision should be final . Bureacracy is still a major problem in India. This is killing the nation. Once the deal is final and communicated to the world, placing objections at this point shows how inefficient and corrupted the system is. These babus should be fired and fined for placing hurdles.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby ramana » 18 Feb 2012 02:15

One should see what their objection is and then decide.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby skganji » 18 Feb 2012 03:55

ramana wrote:One should see what their objection is and then decide.


What were they doing before the deal is finalized ?. Are they sleeping. I don't think there is any genuine concern here. It is all as usual beuracratic hurdle they want to create. Or may be some foreign vested interest is trying to use them to stop this deal.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Gilles » 18 Feb 2012 05:50

already posted, sorry

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby shukla » 18 Feb 2012 06:08

Mother of all India's defence deals: Rafale Jets dodge a 'dissent dogfight'
Daily Mail

The two officials - additional financial advisor and a joint secretary in the ministry Prem Kumar Kataria, and finance manager (air) R.K. Arora - are members of the negotiation committee that comprises senior ministry officials and Indian Air Force (IAF) officers. The two officials noted that certain assumptions had been made about Rafale's bid to declare it as the lowest bidder, but no one had validated it. The officials initially refused to sign the minutes of the committee.

They later signed after making their reservations known. They put written notes on the file on January 24, according to officials privy to the negotiations. Sources say defence minister A.K. Antony wants to steer clear of any controversy and has instructed that the committee should settle the issue internally.

According to sources, while evaluating the commercial bids, a new system was followed that not only took into account the unit prices but also calculated the 'life cycle costs' - which takes into account the cost of maintenance and spares for the period, estimated at 40 years, the aircraft would remain operational.

The sources said the whole formula was based on certain assumptions, which have now been questioned. The contract negotiation committee's report goes to the defence minister, who forwards it to the finance minister. Since the finance ministry will evaluate the MoD's recommendation, the objections made on the file could create a problem. The government, already facing a lot of heat over several corruption scandals, will not like to be questioned over the biggest defence purchase. However, these are early days and the signing of the contract is still a long way, as the defence minister said on Friday.

Antony said: 'It will have to pass through scrutiny in eight stages. After the negotiation committee, it will come to the ministry where there will be at least four stages of scrutiny by defence finance. Then it will go to independent monitors appointed by the CVC and then to the National Security Council secretariat and the finance ministry.' He also ruled out a review of the deal, as urged by the British PM.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby shukla » 18 Feb 2012 06:12


SaiK
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby SaiK » 18 Feb 2012 06:19

you all see how the french are actually not that excited.. this is all long way to go!.. after it gets mod-ed, it has to get mof-ed!

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Kartik » 18 Feb 2012 07:25

tsarkar wrote:^^ Raising questions and making notes on files is a common CYA exercise by bureaucrats. It is similar to asking a car mechanic, "why did you remove topmost bolt first instead of the lowermost bolt in the wheel while replacing the flat tyre?" followed by a note "it is possible to replace a flat tyre by removing the left, right & lower bolt first in the wheel instead of the top one as done by this mechanic"


I'm amazed that such a routine matter even made the news ! Clearly tells me that journos are on the lookout for the smallest bit of "news" that they can sensationalise in an attempt to trip up the process.

Every major decision in any major procurement goes through reviews- and people who review the documents or the analysis have a right to ask questions about how certain results were arrived at. And if assumptions were made (and for calculating total lifecycle costs, there will be a lot of assumptions, made with the best knowledge available at that time) there is NOTHING wrong in that.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Kartik » 18 Feb 2012 07:31

skganji wrote:Screw th MoD officials. Always placing hurdles have become a phenomenon for GOI. Airforce is the end customer and their decision should be final . Bureacracy is still a major problem in India. This is killing the nation. Once the deal is final and communicated to the world, placing objections at this point shows how inefficient and corrupted the system is. These babus should be fired and fined for placing hurdles.


THey have a right to question assumptions - it is the job of those who came up with the report to justify the assumptions, which I am sure they will. As simple as that. Asking for someone to be fired for that is retarded.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Sanjay » 18 Feb 2012 07:43

I am advised that this is not abnormal. There will be a query and it would be recorded. Importantly, they were a minority.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby SaiK » 18 Feb 2012 08:12

If they are a minority, we can wrap this thread up now.


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