Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

[brihaspati]

I thought this had been sufficiently explained ad nauseum. Iran is responsible for 12% of India's imported oil, and the US\Isreal now want us to stop buying Iranian oil and get it from the Saudis instead (at much higher cost, of course). This being part of the overall effort to stop all Iranian oil exports and finish off their already weakened economy, as part of the broader campaign to ultimately topple the regime.

This part is common knowledge and no one will deny that Iran supplies oil to India. From the so-called trade/profits onlee angle of foreign policy, only this oil part should then be of consideration to India? From this theory of engaging with islamist/gulf states - being trade/prosperity/job creation overruling every other consideration in foreign policy - your argument needs to show, why

(1) any change in regime in Iran will immediately stop the sale of oil from Iran to India
(2) any substitution of this oil from other sources is bad - even if it does not affect profitability/prosperity

What does India gain from the destruction of Iran, and why is it wrong for us to support an Islamic terrorist state when it's in our strategic interests? If we lose Iran, we lose Afghanistan. I like how it's OK for the US to support Pakistan, Saudi, etc but wrong for India & Russia to back Iran.

What makes you think Iran will be "destroyed"? It can be a regime change and perhaps a system change. Where trade/exports/profits are concerned, by this approach - India should only be concerned with whether change of regimes and new regimes decide to stop sale of oil to India.

From the trade/prosperity angle - why should India be concerned about the internal domestic/social aspects of regime change in Iran as long as Iran is on the market selling oil, and India can buy that oil?

Why do you exclude India as also a supporter of Saudi Arabia leaving the honour only to USA? One of its chief clerics - who had once systematically connected the issues of Palestinians and "Kashmiri" birathers - was welcomed at a semi-official level in India, and shaken hands with by the Honbl Prime Minister ji. India has excellent relations with the Saudi regime, and Saudi theologians have unrestricted access to Indian Islamic networks, with little or no impact so far on the funds flow that promotes the Saudi leaning Islamic dawa networks in India.


All that you are raising as issues that should prevent India from taking any steps that "damages" Iranian regimes - are not really founded on the pure-profits-onlee argument that is used to justify the cozy cozy allowance of Gulf influence in India - but based on humanitarian or other ideological and ethical values.

As the devils advocate - If ethical or moral considerations can be dropped altogether when it is a case of defending GCC connections, why is it so wrong to appear to be on the USA/Israel side - if justified on the grounds that Iran's nuclear capabilities is going to be "destabilizing" the region? It will bring war - and therefore disrupt trade and prosperity of the whole region, including India? The onlee onlee reason, any talk of retaliation against paki's is tantamount to stopping Indian progress!

If we are going for ethical and moral issues:

(1) in a conflict between the islamist and non-islamist side - which one should we choose? In this case its Israel versus the definitely, overtly, and fanatically islamist regime currently in power in Iran.
(2) Israel is the focus of hatred of the Muslims of ME - not only because Israel has refused to budge on the Fatah-Hamas demands. But the roots of this hatred go back to the foundation of islam and is an integral part of islamism - Jews are the hated ideological ancestors whose material has been pilfered and appropriated by the theology. Erasure of Jews and Judaism is the one sure way of erasing all traces of this pilfering and borrowing and claim uncontested theological legitimacy.

As long as we allow Israel to be strengthened, it remains a thorn in the sides of all of Islam, and the wall against which it breaks its head repeatedly. A cynical approach would point that out as an advantage for us - at least those of us who are not head over heels in love with the theology.

[pushkar.bhat]

OT

India is better off with the current Iranian regime instead of a unkil ka pappu regime in that region. This will allow us to maintain a independent diplomatic stance specially with respect to the IOR. The big bamb that Iran is said to be developing is targeted at KSA and not Israel.

Frankly it will be stupid and suicidal for Iran to pull off something like the Delhi or Tbilisi attacks in light of the current diplomatic tangle it finds itself in. The uNkil will be better of working with his bacchu and Iran on normalization of its relations if it wants to play the IOR game else it should vacate the sphere of influence. Frankly, I am fed up with ham fisted approach that unkil and eeyou keeps following in Asia time and again.

[Sumeet]

What does India gain from the destruction of Iran, and why is it wrong for us to support an Islamic terrorist state when it's in our strategic interests? If we lose Iran, we lose Afghanistan. I like how it's OK for the US to support Pakistan, Saudi, etc but wrong for India & Russia to back Iran.

I doubt that US would be supporting religious ideology based barbaric regimes like those of TSP, Saudi Arabia or Iran if they were in its vicinity. Let alone support in anyway they may not let them survive intact.

Being geographically located in a far off place it can use them to its advantage even though they have gone/going rogue. But even with this distance there is a top bound for tolerance.

[Sumeet]

As long as we allow Israel to be strengthened, it remains a thorn in the sides of all of Islam, and the wall against which it breaks its head repeatedly. A cynical approach would point that out as an advantage for us - at least those of us who are not head over heels in love with the theology.

Great point. If Israel goes down for any reason then we are next target for complete Islamisation where frontline could well be TSP groups but at the back supported by Shia (Iran) and Sunni (Saudi Arabia) alike.

Iran always votes against India on issues like Kashmir, has materially (in terms of arms/planes) supported Pakistan in previous wars, given them space to achieve their goal of strategic depth. Ayotollah Khoemani lamented the partition of India since it would have been easier to make India Islamic had all of subcontinental Muslims chosen to stay there. For Iran, ultimately TSP being Muslim is more close to their heart than us Idol worshipers and Polytheists.

Another point that comes to my mind is, in case of an attack on Israel that threatens it's existence by any Muslim country Israel will retaliate on all or many Islamic lands. It's called the Sampson option. This plan may include countries like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia amongst others as possible targets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option

[member_20617]

Israel also has Muslim population like us but does not hesitate to state that if its existence is threatened by any Muslim country it will retaliate on all or many Islamic lands.

Do we have such plans for India?

I would call such a plan as ‘Bharat Mata Vikalp’ or ‘Vajra Prahaar’ or ‘Ghatak’

[Yogi_G]

Not sure if this is OT, but I for one am of the strong opinion that the non-Abrahammic population of India lives with a tape tied around its eyes. I remains oblivious to threat of internal demographic impending changes and what would happen if Hindus were to become a minority. In 100-150 years non-Abrahammic people in India will be a minority and Indonesia style religious wars (within same army) will become possible. I am not even sure if the Indic non-Abrahammic people will acknowledge a threat to their existence then, hopefully no p-secs would be around.

What would be the Israel of the Dharmics? Gujarat or Karnataka or Maharasthra? States which have historically had a strong Dharmic inclination and opposition to proseltyzing? I only see Gujarat as an option, even Karnataka is a lost cause if BJP goes. Maharashtra is a lost cause and I hope Shivaji's cause is not lost on its people.

[gakakkad]

Not sure if this is OT, but I for one am of the strong opinion that the non-Abrahammic population of India lives with a tape tied around its eyes. I remains oblivious to threat of internal demographic impending changes and what would happen if Hindus were to become a minority. In 100-150 years non-Abrahammic people in India will be a minority and Indonesia style religious wars (within same army) will become possible. I am not even sure if the Indic non-Abrahammic people will acknowledge a threat to their existence then, hopefully no p-secs would be around.

What would be the Israel of the Dharmics? Gujarat or Karnataka or Maharasthra? States which have historically had a strong Dharmic inclination and opposition to proseltyzing? I only see Gujarat as an option, even Karnataka is a lost cause if BJP goes. Maharashtra is a lost cause and I hope Shivaji's cause is not lost on its people.

Saar 85 % of the Indian population is Non abrahamic . perhaps more .Christians population has a low growth rate. True , <snip> , but that too will eventually stabilize. A 100 years down the line , I doubt religion will even be significant. 25 % of the american population is atheist . The same ll probably happen elsewhere .

[Aditya_V]

<snip>

I don't think we in BRF should such words to describe fellow citizens, I think this is crossing the line.

[Pranav]

Iran always votes against India on issues like Kashmir,

Not true

has materially (in terms of arms/planes) supported Pakistan in previous wars

That was under the Shah.

[vishvak]

Do we have such plans for India?

I would call such a plan as ‘Bharat Mata Vikalp’ or ‘Vajra Prahaar’ or ‘Ghatak’

A part of plans could be to increase strength of Hindu/Dharmic population as it does count during polls, etc. The 2-child policies etc. should be put to rest when muslims don't adhere to it.

Population difference could be improvised not just for Hindu but all Dharmic populations, starting from 83% and moving upto better standing in south Asia. A model to accommodate increase in population locally, such as members of religious groups given jobs etc through temple donations, temple/trust schools, vyaayaamshaala/gymnasiums could be good too.

2 paise.

[sanjaykumar]

These seem unusual ingredients for making a bomb. A net search showed the matter seemed to have been downloaded from Terraria Wiki, used by gamers who play online game Terraria.

Indians are by large truly deeply illiterate.

Regardless of the IIT bullsh!t.

[nachiket]

Indians are by large truly deeply illiterate.

That would include yourself I presume? Or do you just happen to be one of the elite few who are not?

[sanjaykumar]

I suppose your police chief meets your standards.

[anishns]

Kaffir wimmens are fair game

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/securit ... in-pattaya

[brihaspati]

1950-2007 global conflict figures : Arab-Israel conflict accounts for 0.06% of fatalities.

Over 90% of Muslim fatalities since 48 were by fellow muslims, and Arab Israel fighting accounts for less than 0.3%.

http://wasteofmyoxygen.wordpress.com/20 ... g-muslims/

This grisly inventory finds the total number of deaths in conflicts since 1950 numbering about 85,000,000. Of that sum, the deaths in the Arab-Israeli conflict since 1950 include 32,000 deaths due to Arab state attacks and 19,000 due to Palestinian attacks, or 51,000 in all. Arabs make up roughly 35,000 of these dead and Jewish Israelis make up 16,000.

These figures mean that deaths Arab-Israeli fighting since 1950 amount to just 0.06 percent of the total number of deaths in all conflicts in that period. More graphically, only 1 out of about 1,700 persons killed in conflicts since 1950 has died due to Arab-Israeli fighting.

(Adding the 11,000 killed in the Israeli war of independence, 1947-49, made up of 5,000 Arabs and 6,000 Israeli Jews, does not significantly alter these figures.)

In a different perspective, some 11,000,000 Muslims have been violently killed since 1948, of which 35,000, or 0.3 percent, died during the sixty years of fighting Israel, or just 1 out of every 315 Muslim fatalities. In contrast, over 90 percent of the 11 million who perished were killed by fellow Muslims.

[anmol]

Kaffir wimmens are fair game

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/securit ... in-pattaya

[devesh]

the worst thing about the whole fiasco is that we are proven to be a bunch of jokers. the only thing that is worse than being considered too cautious to venture "out" is to be considered weak willed who can be easily "directed" as wished by the external hands. this is a serious situation. with a simple piece of technology probably put together by amateurs within a day or two, a country the size of India is forced to take sides in a major conflict. this is disastrous. India has effectively been goaded into taking a side in this drama. the intelligence machinery truly deserves a jhapad on the face. do they even realize what a colossal failure this is? basically, all the world sees that a simple sticky bomb on a well placed target is enough to push India whichever way they want....

the very fact that they didn't even have an inkling of a possible attack on Israeli target in India is a serious deficiency. the Jihadi networks would have been frothing at the mouth at the prospect of taking out Jews on Kafir soil of Hindoos. there would have been a definite up in tempo and tenor in the networks responsible. that they had absolutely no inkling is seriously problematic. are we supposed to believe these worthies had a hand in BD and Maldives?!?!?!

[ramana]

Relax. Even the Israelis felt safe in India. The question is what changed and who did it? We have enough people who beat up on us to not indulge in self flagellation.

[brihaspati]

Israelis can usually penetrate intel of non-Islamic regimes, but they do not usually have that much success with Muslim regimes unless the regime decided to cooperate for various tactical reasons. Even then, it seems, that mere change in regime can expose doubles or collaborators from the muslim side - which means the doubles for Israel within Islamic frameworks are not really doubles in the classic sense [at least one party is fooled if not both].

There are such strong anti-Semtic memes built into islamist education, that even those few who do help out probably are under immense turmoil when they do help out.

My posit is that Mossad will not have great success within Indian intel, even if many in the past have suspected either the CIA or the KGB to have a secure handle. If Mossad fails to get forewarned in India, it has some implications for where our own intel networks stand - especially given the selectivity of Hadley and co roaming free while Israeli couple in deep south get caught pronto.

We will not have to speculate about whether any ideological transition that has taken place within the security apparatus - but simply patiently watch out the proportion of cases solved, alleged perpetrators as declared by the agencies and relative ideological origins of those perpetrators, and I feel a distinct pattern will emerge.

This case in particular will not be so easily solved. Real culprits unlikely to be caught and there could be attempts at shifting blame on politically convenient targets.

[ramana]

Again I think its an Ind Muj attack. Only they have the official Nelson eye to pull it off.

[shyamd]

The Israeli couple- IB is aware of several. They usually turn up as backpackers and then carry out their mission or investigate their targets. These are like semi professionals. They aren't properly trained. The problem was the one in Kerala started looking at something in the govt.

Word on the street is Iran was responsible and they are close to catching the cell. Iranian diplomats have been shouted at if what some people are saying is true

A former Iranian minister told an analyst that "Iran has several assets in India. There are lots of people who need money."

[RajeshA]

The message India needs to be sending in this case of bombing is not whether we are on the side of Israel or Iran, but simply that such acts will not be tolerated on Indian soil and we would want to see the head of the guy who ordered this.

India needs to come down heavy on each and every participant who had anything to do with the act. Hang them all after torturing the daylights out of them.

And India needs to put out a warrant for some Iranian Intelligence Chief who is sitting in Iran.

It need not sour the rest of the Indo-Iranian relationship if one can contain it to just that! But the message needs to be sent out that India is not going to be the proxy battlefields of power rivalries in the world!

If Indian politicos start thinking about other wider consequences of India's relationship with Israel or Iran, and starts dithering about what to do, then that it is exactly the crap we are going to land in, because every other country would start thinking that some threat of worsening of relations is enough to put India off the course of doing what is right!

This is conditioned on the premise that Iran is really responsible! But we need to come down hard on this, or this thing would spread!

India is neutral territory! Nobody brings his trash into India! The message has to go out loudly and clearly!

[Singha]

+1. even if israel is a munna of A1 level, khan comes down really hard on any act of israeli espionage of over smartness on khan soil - the pollard case etc. only strength on these matters will get respect.

[brihaspati]

India may effectively shut out Israel - because the indigenous Israeli community is so tiny, that it has little social presence, and hence politically insignificant on domestic terms. Iran is an altogether different ball-game, with a significant political potential. Given that even Deoband has increasingly started supporting issues connected to the Iranian regime, shows a tactical convergence that is impossible to ignore - for whoever rules New Delhi. Hence if Iran really is the culprit, nothing will surface in concrete terms. We may even see a new saffron terror case being "considered".

ramana ji,
do you really think that the current regime or the long term admin in power - seriously believes in IM capabilities? They would hardly know anything about them of "actionable" nature. Indian intel is remarkably successful against idealistic non-Islamic non-Christian militancy, but not otherwise. Even the anti-Naxalite penetration works best against the more idealistic or those possibly not affiliated with or not having sympathies for the two theologies. The early WB naxalites were quickly eliminated because they were predominantly neither Muslim nor Christians or had similar connections. Look at the difficulty with AP.

The IM is essentially rather well protected from rashtryia love, if you look at the facts on ground.

[shyamd]

+1 RajeshA ji. We should do what the UAE did during the Mabhouh operation. Play it up in the media, ask Dilli police chief to invite media and do a presentation exposing the killers and evidence of iranian involvement - embarress them. But at the same time continue cooperation in Af-Pak.

[pgbhat]

Ronen Sen's interview..
'We don’t have the luxury of not taking a stand'

[Philip]

Delhi Police...reminds me of the legendary Inspector Clouseau of the Surete.When once asked "what kind of bomb" it was,his immediate reply was "of the exploding type fool!"

The diff. issues need to be kept separate here.A terror attack against a foreign diplomat has taken place in Indian soil,in the very capital.India needs to get to the bottom of it.If any country is found to be behind it,diplomatic punishment must follow.

However,that does not mean that it should destroy our relations with the nation responsible,if for argument's sake,it was found to have an "Iranian hand".On must look to see who within that country's establishment is behind the attacks.The attack was not against an Indian target.Secondly,from circumstancial evidence,the two nations most likely to be behind these apparent tit-for -tat killings,again for argument's sake Israel and Iran,need to take their spat elsewhere.

Lastly,our vital interests are ours alone and no amount of armtwisting by hypocritical outside powers should make India change course.

[Advait]

There is no doubt Iran was behind the attacks. Iranians were caught in Thailand, and only conspiracy theorists will try to see more than there is to this. As to why Iran would do this in India. Why not?

After our dhimmi sarkar's complete non-response to 26/11, everybody saw India's aukat. And in this case, Iran can tell GoI "relax, you weren't the main target, besides we give you oil".

[shyamd]

Israeli Minister in India to discuss energy tie-up

[Prem]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 89,00.html
Navy's new super-sub revealed

Foreign media say Israel's navy ready to test advanced, German-made submarine said to be virtually undetectable by radar, able to launch nuclear missiles .According to German media, the Tannin – which will be supplied by the end of 2012 – is the first of three super-submarine slated to eventually be deployed by the Navy. A second super-sub – the INS Rahav ("Splendor") will arrive in 2014 and the third, which has yet to be named, by 2015. Germany's Kieler Nachrichten newspaper said that the super-sub is the biggest and most advanced underwater vessel to be constructed in Germany since World War II

(SO THE QUESTION IS WHEN IS THE ACTION DAY. AVI)
Check the remarks

[Klaus]

Do members here have info on past Israeli sub operations in Red Sea and/or Arabian Sea? Would they venture close to Gulf of Oman or the Strait to carry out their ops or would they stick to the safe confines of the open waters around the Tropic of Cancer?

From an operational PoV, the Red Sea, Hormuz and the Gulf of Oman are congested lanes as compared to the vast IOR proper. Or is there another side to this?

[nachiket]

Foreign media say Israel's navy ready to test advanced, German-made submarine said to be virtually undetectable by radar, able to launch nuclear missiles .

Who uses Radar to detect submarines anyway?

[shyamd]

Do members here have info on past Israeli sub operations in Red Sea and/or Arabian Sea? Would they venture close to Gulf of Oman or the Strait to carry out their ops or would they stick to the safe confines of the open waters around the Tropic of Cancer?

From an operational PoV, the Red Sea, Hormuz and the Gulf of Oman are congested lanes as compared to the vast IOR proper. Or is there another side to this?

See
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 9#p1158119

IOR, Red Sea & off syrian coast.

[pgbhat]

From Haaretz..

According to a senior Israeli official who is close to the investigation, the Indians are close to fully solving the case but they are not saying so publicly. Nonetheless, in quiet contacts with Israel and the United States, the Indians are not concealing the information in their possession, the Israeli official said. The Indians have located the motorcycle used in the attack, have identified who purchased it, and know how and when the attackers arrived in India, the Israeli added. Similar details have also been published by news agencies in India.

"The Indians received a great deal of assistance in the investigation from the United States and Israel and did a lot of work themselves," the senior Israeli official said. "They know Iran is behind the attack. They got to the suspects and carried out arrests. The picture is totally clear to all the officials in India up to the level of the interior minister, but they're not publicizing [it]."

The Israeli official said Indian security services have decided to characterize the incident as a case that, until further notice, is under investigation. This has lowered the pressure for the release of details, and the need to make serious decisions on how to proceed has been deferred. "The Indians understand that if they release the details they have, they won't have a choice but to take steps such as expelling the Iranian ambassador," said the Israeli source. "At this stage, they prefer to avoid such a crisis with Iran."

There have been Indian media reports claiming that 13 suspicious telephone calls made to Iran and Lebanon in the hour before and after the New Delhi blast have been examined. Four of the calls were reportedly made from a public telephone with a view of the restaurant where Yehoshua-Koren and her husband were eating a short time before the attack.

[nvishal]

North Kerala

As north Kerala boils and seethes in fundamentalist frenzy, it has come as no surprise that investigators tasked with cracking open the attack on an Israeli diplomat in New Delhi on February 13 have zeroed in on Kerala to seek those behind the blast. High on the radar of a joint National Investigation Agency (NIA) and Intelligence Bureau (IB) team is the Popular Front of India (PFI), an Islamist outfit that has created a nationwide network in just a few years, with a political wing to boot. In late January, a ‘National General Assembly’ of the PFI had bitterly criticised the deepening Indo-Israeli relationship, saying in a resolution that it “will be a catalyst to the communal and terrorist agenda of Hindutva fascist outfits...”

[shiv]

OT reply posted here
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 2#p1251752

[Sachin]

As north Kerala boils and seethes in fundamentalist frenzy,

Hope the K.P is also watching this closely . North Kerala districts of Kannur and Kasaragode seems to be infested with radical Islamists. Lots of nasty cases have been reported recently from that area. Descration of temples, people marching wearing Military Uniforms (with the drill very similar to that used by a friendly neighbour etc.). If I read it correctly the District police authorities have clearly informed the ruling government that these incidents cannot be seen in isolation, or gimmicks caused by a few disgruntled elements.

[Dilbu]

Bringing Hebrew to Kashmir

SRINAGAR, India – Down the road from the knot of houseboats floating in Srinagar’s Nigeen Lake, two Internet cafes are changing the script. To Hebrew, that is.

From Goa to Himachal Pradesh, Israeli backpackers are not an uncommon sight in India, but they’re also making their way to this Muslim-majority valley in the Himalayas.

A sandwich-board sign propped before New Net World features blue Hebrew letters on a computer keyboard. Inside, the young owner Tauqeer Ahmad explains that shortly after opening his shop a couple years ago, an increasing number of tourists began asking if he had Hebrew-language facilities. Seeing the business potential, a friend encouraged him to satisfy the demand.

Israelis have been venturing into Kashmir at least since the 1980s, said Majeed Bhat, who has long worked in the tourism industry and helps run the next-door Dream Cafe, which also started up two years ago providing Hebrew services. “Even during the troubles, when nobody else came here they did,” Mr. Bhat said, referring to the hard-hit days of militancy and army crackdowns in the 1990s. “They never got scared. That surprised us.”

In the past half-decade, Mr. Bhat said he has noticed a trend with larger numbers of Israelis, especially the younger generation, traveling to Kashmir. It’s usually a stop on their route after journeying from Dharamsala and Ladakh.

[RajeshA]

Dilbu ji,

there is a theory that Hebrew and even Aramaic are themselves linguistic branches of Kashmiri language, which is based on Sanskrit.

Is There A Connection Between Ancient Indian And Hebrew Language?
A scholar finds compelling evidence for ancient Indian influence on a global scale.

The author refers to Godfrey Higgins and his research work in Anacalypsis! His major theory was that Abraham is another written form of Brahma!

A free pdf of portions of Anacalypsis is available on the Internet!

[Dilbu]

That is interesting.