Artillery Discussion Thread

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 25 Jan 2012 17:04

Singha wrote:here is a pic of the Norinco SH-1 155mm - looks similar to the Donar / Arthur
http://www.armyrecognition.com/images/s ... gy_640.jpg

turkey panter 155mm towed
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7SvKgIpSQ6k/S ... Panter.jpg

so basically
Khan took care of M109 and ANTPQ36 - tracked SP , added more M109 under GOAT
Lizard took care of MLRS , SH-1 trucked SP and SLC-2 firefinder radar
Turkey took care of Panter 155mm towed gun
Nexter took care of 155mm shells for all three

looks like a fairly happy situation to me (funds constraints notwithstanding) vs the hot air we have been blowing through our backsides for the last decade lol. 1000x towed, 2000x trucked, unlimited trials...heh heh *whine*

looks like the Pakis as on today have a huge inventory of 155mm artillery and Mlrs. They seem to sitting pretty while our MOD is twiddling our thumbs.

Looking at the way Pakis have armed themselves in the last decade. Right now now given our lack of upgrades in artillery, we really are outgunned today.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 25 Jan 2012 17:26

^^^They have good number of SP Arty but on the 155mm front, the inductions are IMO just about happening. Rest is all mix-bag of various types with 130mm also featuring pre-dominantly.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 25 Jan 2012 21:53

shiv wrote:
sum wrote:As Army bares its artillery might, Bofors gun is the star

There is a video in the link too!
Simply loved the video

Excellent video! It the first video that I have seen that shows the entire process of of firing a the Bofors gun in a fairly detailed manner. Makes you appreciate the engineering beauty that it really is.
I had a couple of Questions after watching the video,
1)Who is operating the crane? -I thought the guy sitting on the crane side of the gun operates it, but doesn't seem like it from the video.
2)A more trivial Q I had for a long time>Does the FH-77 have the fastest rate of fire compared to all other towed artillery(maybe even other types)?
Here's a Link to a LiveFist post on a leaked trial report which claims that the newer version fired 75 rounds in 22:34 minutes Vs. 53.3 minutes for the Soltam gun.

schowdhuri · Post by **schowdhuri** » 25 Jan 2012 22:33

abhik wrote:Excellent video! It the first video that I have seen that shows the entire process of of firing a the Bofors gun in a fairly detailed manner. Makes you appreciate the engineering beauty that it really is.
I had a couple of Questions after watching the video,
1)Who is operating the crane? -I thought the guy sitting on the crane side of the gun operates it, but doesn't seem like it from the video.
2)A more trivial Q I had for a long time>Does the FH-77 have the fastest rate of fire compared to all other towed artillery(maybe even other types)?
Here's a Link to a LiveFist post on a leaked trial report which claims that the newer version fired 75 rounds in 22:34 minutes Vs. 53.3 minutes for the Soltam gun.

The person on the gun on the right side is responsible for handling the loading table (which feeds the loading tray, and is in turn fed from the crane). There are other loaders on the ground for setting the fuzes, putting the projectiles in the crane, and also loading the charge (the rear part with the charge bag(s) which drives the projectile). These other loaders (obviously) operate the crane, because the loader on the gun has his attention on the loading table & tray, and is looking away from the crane.

Certainly FH-77 has the highest rate of fire - initial rate is very high because the loading tray is (hopefully) filled. Subsequent rate of fire depends on how fast the ammunition continues to be fed. The loading & ramming is automatic, unlike the other guns.

srai · Post by **srai** » 29 Jan 2012 10:17

This video shows the different artillery guns in the PA:

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 29 Jan 2012 14:47

^^^
Is the first gun a WW2 "Long Tom"?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Jan 2012 16:48

fh77b must be a early 80s design - outstanding work, considering it was based on tech 30 yrs ago.

surely 2500 of these in new form and 1000 archers can turn the tide of any war in our favour, hence the persistent efforts to scuttle any artillery deal to keep the munna happy.

Will · Post by **Will** » 02 Feb 2012 16:08

Any news at all on the artillery tenders?

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 03 Feb 2012 02:27

Till Kanpur OFB come's up with prototype/s of 155 MM Gun, the old files related to the artillery purchases will not move.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 03 Feb 2012 02:34

So few more wasted years. Hope OFB comes up with a reasonable product and Army for a change seriously consider it. In fact they have no other option now.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 03 Feb 2012 22:45

IIRC, OFB kanpur had indicated the first prototype will come out by the end of this year.
Hoping the OFB stand/pavillion at DEFEXPO in Delhi (Mar 29- 1 Apr) has some info about it.

Snehashis · Post by **Snehashis** » 28 Feb 2012 14:37

100 made-in-India Bofors artillery guns

Defeating the ghost of Bofors scandal that has haunted successive Congress governments, the Indian Ordinance Factory Board (OFB) has set on a daunting task of manufacturing 100 Bofors artillery guns indigenously from scratch, nearly 24 years after the first of these Swedish guns were inducted into the Indian Army.

The Indian Army has already placed an order with the OFB and the effort if successful will save the country millions and would give the country a capability to further improvise the guns to add punch to its firepower.

Speaking exclusively to Express, Minister of State for Defence M M Pallam Raju said: “The Indian Army has put a substantial order for 100 of these Bofors guns. It is a huge task for the OFB. If we are successful, it will be a huge technology boost to the Indian defence market.”

The designs are already with the OFB and the Indian Army’s decision to go for 100 guns at the beginning of the project and testing the guns simultaneously as the manufacturing goes on, will cut down the time of fructification of the project.

Earlier, the Army contemplated first getting the two prototypes of the guns, then putting them to extensive field trials. Once the designs were validated, the guns were to be mass produced.

Seeing the delays in previous projects, the defence ministry has decided to set up a Monitoring Committee to oversee the progress of the project and involve the Army in the project from the beginning.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 28 Feb 2012 19:23

http://www.globalsecurity.org/jhtml/jfr ... ab10-2.gif|||

This site gives the APERS round (M546 - flechette) range at 11-12 km for a 105 mm gun.

Are Indians making these flechette rounds for IFG/LFG?

Also some link for howitzer clusters, Indian would be great.

Also can anybody confirm if the range and dispersal characterstics can safely be assumed to be the same for M494. Following link does suggests so. If it is so, then what could be the differences between the two rounds.

http://articles.janes.com/articles/Jane ... tates.html

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 29 Feb 2012 00:22

Snehashis wrote:100 made-in-India Bofors artillery guns

If they get this right it surely calls for a lungi dance!! Me thinks, the Field Arty Rationalization Plan should standardize the Field Arty Regiments on this and look for phoren goodies only for the more specialist roles - tracked, light-weight, etc.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Feb 2012 00:30

How does OFB making Bofors exonerate the Congress govt of the Bofors scam? Its by no means laying the ghost of Bofors to rest!

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 29 Feb 2012 00:39

^^ Don't think Congress can exonerate itself from this ghost. But then again, as long as we get ourselves suitably equipped, am fine with anything that we can get our hands on. This option (as of now) looks most probable

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 29 Feb 2012 21:21

As long as Titanium is made available to OFB they should have their tasks cut out for them! God speed!

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 01 Mar 2012 12:45

We have all the blue prints and specifications so design wise there may not be much problems. Metal related issues may be there. Do we have required capabilities to make the suitable metalurgical capabilities? If not there it is best time to develop the competence - Hope this effort also comes out like LCA or Space programme with lot of capability development.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 01 Mar 2012 13:02

Great news... I hope and pray OFB Kanpur ropes in private players like Mahindras, Bharat Forge and Walchandnagar and sub contract relevant parts. Godrej is another candidate... Hope this 100 becomes an follow-on order for 1,000 Arty pieces.

Metallurgy should not be a big issue as OFB had already developed barrels as spares for existing Howitzers. Afterall SDREs originally purchased only 750 pieces and lost a good number to counter-battery fire as well as cannibalization.

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 01 Mar 2012 17:25

^^ When did we purchase 750 pieces of Bofors?

Secondly, pls provide source for we losing a good number to counter battery fire

TIA

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 01 Mar 2012 17:54

This is just an interim measure. DRDO's own gun is getting ready. Hope it will be tested and start induction just like this gun.

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 01 Mar 2012 23:57

http://m.indianexpress.com/news/army-pl ... rs/918258/

"The Army has placed orders with the OFB for procuring one hundred 155mm 52 calibre howitzers and this will be developed on the basis of Transfer of Technology (ToT) done by Bofors," Minister of State for Defence M M Pallam Raju told PTI here.

Just realized, the article talks about 155mm 52 calibre howitzers. IIRC, FH77B are 39 calibre. So is there some sort of reverse engineering that has been done or TOT to upgun the original version to a 52 calibre?

Or is it DDM-itis?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Mar 2012 01:02

DDMitis. I saw it too but was lazy to post.
A bigger question is if all these years they had the know-how, then why not make them earlier?
- Why were some of the guns canabalized?
- Why all this charade of importing Denel etc?

Also Ajay I thought ~ 450 guns were bought in the early round.

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 02 Mar 2012 05:12

- Why were some of the guns canabalized?

IIRC (Gaurav Sawant's book?) there was a shortage of bofors specific shells, so keep the guns firing.

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 02 Mar 2012 09:37

410 guns to be precise Ramana, that India procured from Sweden

FWIW, as per globalsecurity.org http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... /fh-77.htm

Bofors delivered 410 FH-77BS towed howitzers to India from 1986 to 1990 but, following allegations of kickbacks, India froze plans to put the weapon into production and blacklisted the company...

The stock of ammunition that India received along with the 410 Bofors guns was exhausted by 1988. In 1988 the Indian Army tried to resurrect the guns for operational use by marrying an indigenously built barrel with the howitzer's chassis. But the attempt failed as it was found that no reverse engineering could be done on the guns. In October 1998 the Atal Bihari Vajpayee government decided to reopen negotiations with the Swedish firm A.B. Bofors, to ensure transfer of technology and spare parts to the 410 field howitzers lying unused in the India army's artillery units.

If we take the above report at face value, then there are a few questions that come up:
a) Did GoI pay extra in 1998 to Bofors for additional ToT based on which now OFB can make these guns?
b) Was the ToT more to do with blue prints or metalurgy?
c) Why did OFB not attempt to make the guns after getting the additional ToT?
d) Why did the Army not push for more guns through this route earlier even if OFB was happy to do nothing?
e) Why did no one ever talk about this approach earlier (outside Army & OFB)?

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 02 Mar 2012 10:06

Bofors delivered 410 FH-77BS towed howitzers to India from 1986 to 1990 but, following allegations of kickbacks, India froze plans to put the weapon into production and blacklisted the company

ToT, at a very high level, consists of three parts, transfer of documentation, training of personnel and sale of tooling/jigs etc. The first part was successfully completed, but after the ban on doing business with Bofors, the second and third parts were stopped. AFAIK, we never paid for the tooling in a follow up deal and never acquired them. Incredibly foolish of self denying what we’ve rightly paid and agreed for. Push the corrupt, not the equipment. Alas, the Indian bureaucracy does exactly the opposite.

Ajay Sharma wrote:The stock of ammunition that India received along with the 410 Bofors guns was exhausted by 1988. In 1988 the Indian Army tried to resurrect the guns for operational use by marrying an indigenously built barrel with the howitzer's chassis. But the attempt failed as it was found that no reverse engineering could be done on the guns. In October 1998 the Atal Bihari Vajpayee government decided to reopen negotiations with the Swedish firm A.B. Bofors, to ensure transfer of technology and spare parts to the 410 field howitzers lying unused in the India army's artillery units.

For getting the technology, know-how, and tooling. This allowed spares to be made in India. OFB/DRDO results didn’t have the desired results.

Ajay Sharma wrote:Just realized, the article talks about 155mm 52 calibre howitzers. IIRC, FH77B are 39 calibre.

Correct. FH-77B02 model.

Ajay Sharma wrote:So is there some sort of reverse engineering that has been done or TOT to upgun the original version to a 52 calibre?

OFB had come up with a 45 caliber model that was unsatisfactory. Bofors had offered its FH-77B05 52 caliber model and I strongly suspect that ToT has been recently done for the same.

Ajay Sharma wrote:a) Did GoI pay extra in 1998 to Bofors for additional ToT based on which now OFB can make these guns?

Maybe money was paid for the tooling to manufacture spares. The same tooling could possibly be re-used for manufacture. AFAIK, no gun manufacture was discussed in 1998.

Ajay Sharma wrote:b)Was the ToT more to do with blue prints or metalurgy?

1998 - Tooling.

Ajay Sharma wrote:c) Why did OFB not attempt to make the guns after getting the additional ToT?

Bureaucrats/Politicians didn’t let them.

Ajay Sharma wrote:d) Why did the Army not push for more guns through this route earlier even if OFB was happy to do nothing?

They did, Bureaucrats/Politicians didn’t let them.

Ajay Sharma wrote:e) Why did no one ever talk about this approach earlier (outside Army & OFB)?

Because it was politically incorrect.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Mar 2012 10:16

there is no bofors specific shell . they likely follow the nato std, thats why IMI of israel could supply us earlier, zimmermann tasked to build a shell factory (scrapped either by n-sanctions or some other knot), denel tasked to build a shell plant in nalanda (denel got blacklisted).....

I think we likely still import the shells from IMI or we make them ourself here?

mody · Post by **mody** » 02 Mar 2012 10:24

The article about the 100 Gun order states:
"The OFB has been producing major components of the gun, such as barrel, breach mechanism, muzzle break, loading trough, recoil system along with the elevating and traversing cylinders, and supplying these to the army as spares. "

This means that after the effort in 1980's the OFB did manage to make the barrel for the guns, or that post 1998, we paid for and got additional help with regards to the TOT and hence were able to make the above spares.

If the report is true and the OFB has been successfully making all of the above spares for the FH-77B guns, then it should be well within their reach to produce the complete 155 mm 39 caliber gun. I think the talk about 52 caliber is DDM.
Apart from the OFB trying to produce copies of the original Bofors guns, there is a parallel effort by DRDO to produce an indigenous 155 mm 45/52 caliber howitzer.

It would be interesting to know if the guns being made by OFB will have the power pack for self propulsion for the shoot and scoot ability as the Bofors FH-77B or it will be purely Towed Howitzer design.

An OFB or DRDO produced Indian howitzer, would be a dream come true. Hope they get it right.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 02 Mar 2012 10:48

mody wrote:I think the talk about 52 caliber is DDM.

The "new" order appears to be one to one copy of the gun. The initial news of 155 mm also spoke about 39 and 45 mm.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 02 Mar 2012 10:54

tsarkar wrote:Bureaucrats/Politicians didn’t let them.

So we have a blacklisted vendor, we have the blueprints and got the tooling at some point in time.

Now, what is our obligation to repecting a deal we signed with a morally degraded vendor, to whom we have already paid more than what we got in return? Bofors itself has been acquired and re-aquired since. For all practical purposes, if the government was/is staunch on not doing any more business with Bofors/BAE, what is the point in respecting their Intellectual Property?

We could have made plenty of copies, given it an indianized name and called it our own. Even if the gun was a little overweight, had half the service life, it would have been available.

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 02 Mar 2012 21:04

Thanks tsarkar for the info. However, don't think there has been some ToT for a 52 calibre in recent past else am sure there would have been some news leak happening on that front

Ae we sure that 45 calibre was a failed attempt by OFB since CJ's news says that the 39 and 45 calibre will be tested by Dec 2012?

I am assuming that the 39 and 45 calibre attempts will be improvisations of the original gun that we procured since doesnt make sense to try something completely different and expect it be delivered in less than year from the specs being finalized.

Snehashis · Post by **Snehashis** » 02 Mar 2012 21:14

Fotu via Kunal Biswas.

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/9082/img0521hvk5.jpg

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/218/img0256hvm9.jpg

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/9127/img0526hzr8.jpg

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/5563/img0525hnr9.jpg

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/6750/img0523hqd0.jpg

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/4627/img0522hwe7.jpg

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/5372/img0524hlh1.jpg

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Mar 2012 22:05

Atleast now the 155mm shells are being made or is that also blacklisted or self denied?

What about the Krasnopol shell is that being made or again over tested and rejected?

Snehashis · Post by **Snehashis** » 02 Mar 2012 23:01

ramana, according to the OFB site it looks like we are making most of the shell types with the cargo variant as notable exception. It was reported in Asian Age (?) that after Kargil OFB was producing a little less than a quarter m round per year.

srai · Post by **srai** » 03 Mar 2012 07:19

ramana wrote:Atleast now the 155mm shells are being made or is that also blacklisted or self denied?

What about the Krasnopol shell is that being made or again over tested and rejected?

Indian Ordnance Factories - Large Calibre (155mm)
155 mm Shell HE 107
155 mm SHELL HE M/77B
155 mm SHELL HEER
155 mm SMOKE SHELL FFV 007 ER (24KM)
SHELL 155 mm ILLUMINATING (MIRA)
SHELL 155 mm HE
SHELL 155 ILLUMINATING (ERFB)
SHELL 155 SCREENING SMOKE BE M2A2
155-mm HE-ERFB BB
155-mm HE-ERFB BT
155-mm HE-ER (High-Explosive Extended-Range) base-bleed projectile

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Mar 2012 09:11

on some shells there is a handle type or T shaped thing on the nose? is that a impact fuse thing ?

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 03 Mar 2012 09:59

Ajay Sharma wrote:don't think there has been some ToT for a 52 calibre in recent past else am sure there would have been some news leak happening on that front

Agree, I was speculating.

Ajay Sharma wrote:Ae we sure that 45 calibre was a failed attempt by OFB since CJ's news says that the 39 and 45 calibre will be tested by Dec 2012?

AFAIK, there were/are multiple iterative attempts. There were initial attempts to just change the barrel, like the Soltam M-46 upgrade, that didnt work out well.

Reverse engineering often doesnt yield the desired results. Even if the metallurgy composition + forging process + equipment is ToT-ed, there still remains variances. That is why chaps like me are skeptical about Chinese reverse engineered Su30 family, etc. F-7s in Pakistani/Bangladeshi/Sri Lankan service have poor reliability. In case of Pakistan, they were shipped fresh batches periodically before production ended.

Ajay Sharma wrote:I am assuming that the 39 and 45 calibre attempts will be improvisations of the original gun that we procured since doesnt make sense to try something completely different and expect it be delivered in less than year from the specs being finalized.

Correct. For 39 cal, I believe ToT was done, but 39 cal is obsolete for Towed & SPH. This is the reason I speculated 52 cal ToT was done as an upgrade, that doesnt need to go through an exhaustive RFP process. All Bofors follow up deals were done without hue & cry to avoid political muck raising.

srai wrote:155 mm Shell HE 107

US design, Swedish manufacture ToT

srai wrote:155 mm SHELL HE M/77B 155 mm SHELL HEER 155 mm SMOKE SHELL FFV 007 ER (24KM) SHELL 155 mm ILLUMINATING (MIRA) SHELL 155 mm HE 155-mm HE-ER (High-Explosive Extended-Range) base-bleed projectile

Swedish

srai wrote: SHELL 155 ILLUMINATING (ERFB)SHELL 155 SCREENING SMOKE BE M2A2 155-mm HE-ERFB BB 155-mm HE-ERFB BT

South African

Singha wrote:on some shells there is a handle type or T shaped thing on the nose? is that a impact fuse thing ?

Lifting Handle. Fuses aren’t as rugged as the rest of the shell, are screwed before firing.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 03 Mar 2012 10:17

Indian manufacturing efforts here http://articles.janes.com/articles/Jane ... weden.html

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Mar 2012 11:20

So what is needed to make a cargo shell from the existing types in OFB capability?

Snehashis · Post by **Snehashis** » 03 Mar 2012 15:38

ramana wrote:So what is needed to make a cargo shell from the existing types in OFB capability?

IMI is expected to provide the TOT to manufacture them at Nalanda. Also a desi 130 mm cargo shell is undergoing user acceptance trials.