Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

[AKalam]

No, Arab geographers had already started dubbing the hindu "dark/black" before the start of "conquests". However they do not seem to have had any problems bedding "high born" girls captured and enslaved after the sack of Devala. In fact it is claimed that some were married off. Moreover Arab soldiers were encouraged to seize a local girl and settle down in the "conquered" territory. So avoiding gene pool mixing is not supportable as a hypothesis. But coming from BD, you surely must have come across the strange over-eagerness to convert the Brahmin rather than "lower caste" Hindus, and the joy openly expressed if a "Brahmin girl" was "obtained". There are many resources on the web that puts up the story of Noakhali during the Partition. But its not the story of Noakhali only - it happened even later - even in 1953, 1957-59, 1964-65, 1971, 1973-78, 84-85, 90-93, and so on.

If Brahmin girl did not have white skin and/or was not pretty, preference would be for a prettier lower caste girl with whiter skin. I never denied that Muslim migrants married local girls when they initially came. If any mixed Muslim girl was not available, they would go for a local girl and preferrably high born ones who were obviously better looking. But once they have established their communities, newly arrived males and males that grew up in the community would rarely marry outside their Ashraf community, this trend continued till Ashraf landownership was upset during British rule. This is what I can tell from family history in our region in Bengal. The looting and conversion during partition and later were, by and large, done by hoodlums of the community, not at all common for "Bhadrolok" muslim families. My grand father had good relations with local Hindu Zamindars, Roy Chowdhury's and was sorry to see their family move to Kolkata.

It is still almost impossible to prove prehistoric "racism". In fact from a practical viewpoint, below a certain threshold of population, they would be wiped off - if they did not mix whenever they found a "stranger" group.

Prehistoric racism is easy to prove, because people's character do not change that much and we see it happening today. Chances are that they did not magically appear from the influence of some religion.

The constructions you are speaking of - are problematic and of recent origins. Anything that introduces the "shudra" as a category is highly suspicious and is really a hypothetical model that is passed off as real history. Its as elusive as the marxian "class" - of necessity forever vague and ill-defined, because no such category can be constructed or evidence in reality.

I see that you are trying to wiggle out, please ask a Dalit Sikh, I am sure they will not find their situation hypothetical.

Mullahs are not just ordinary people who learn Quran - these are people with sufficient intelligence to be seen as good enough to carry on the long term targets of Dawa and progress the aims of islamization. Not everyone who goes to the madrassah, becomes a mullah or rise up through the hierarchy of qualifications.

I have yet to see any Mullah that I could call intelligent.

My aims, if any are about the territory called Pakistan. If you keep track of the diasporic BD community, and listen in on their interactions, you can see that there is a dominant and significant portion who do identify more with Islamism and Islam than their "Banagali" identity - and some even question the need to fight against Pakistan. That dilemma and dichotomy is still very much visible within BD - and expresses itself in a coupled anti-India+"Islam bipanna"+"Muslim Bangladesh" positioning and posturing.

Muslim Bangladeshi's are both Bengali and Muslim at the same time, I believe they do not need to choose one identity over the other. Some choose to be more Muslim than Bengali, that is their freedom of choice.

If India does finish off Pakistan, the Islamism wave will sweep everything else in BD, because that will be touted as the existential threat. That will be the real test of exactly what is the priority for the dominant controlling interests of BD. I expect BD to walk a certain way, and under pressure reveal its leaning over towards Islamism. That will make things easier to deal with.

Bangladesh and its people will do whatever is needed to do to ensure their safety, security and well being, if they choose Islamism, that will be their own decision. Issuing threats is not going to change people's views or meme's that they grew up it.

As you can see, even in your own post - the anguish over the possible fate of Pakistan at the hands of big bad and inherently-constructed-as-hindu India, forces you to sarcastically refer to Sk Hasina gov in the typical BD parlance of the AL opposition - hinting ever so darkly of a hidden yeevil yindoo+Amreeki+yahudi "chakranta" against "islaam and saarbobhaumatya".

Amreeki+yahudi will and are coming in line with Sunni Islam, with your power of observation, you should be able to see that, no? For your information, I consider both AL and BNP to be led by idiots, I equally despise both of them, incompetent fools.

You at least should be able to see clearly that Sk Hasina is the best option for Islam - because she still raises the illusion in the non-Muslim of the eventual dilution of the Islamist programme of conquest and replacement of all else. Others would hobble the Islamophile sections within the yeevil yindoos.

Hasina and her AL are after power, just like Mujib was. They use India, Hindu vote-bank and the power/money hungry within Bangladesh, the mirage of "Islamic conquest" and polemics that you are peddling is illusion in your mind which you want to propagate. Perhaps you want to become another Savarkar, who knows. Your mode of operation seems to be mastering history, appear knowledgeable and selectively use it to convince people a version of reality that you would like people to believe in. And of course keep dehumanizing the scape goat, the other. Not much different than Fox News and neo-cons. I could not believe at first that characters like you existed, that you really believe in this stuff, but life is full of surprises.

Now, about Pakistan, who do you think they will use Nuke against, which country? I am curious about your opinion on this. Why would they ever use it against India, because they know that if there is a lot of people like you in India, India would be itching for a chance to use them on Pakistan, no?

Your crusade to destroy the meme called Islam will fail. Islam will die its natural death, like Akhenatens religion died one day, so will Chirstianity and probably Sanatan Dharma, but people who try to swim against the tide and people who follow them, get destroyed instead. Just look at the US, it started a crusade on 9/11, Muslims lost a few million people, but USA is now a dying super power and lost its credibility in the world.

That there are people like you in India who want to wipe out millions from the face of the earth, because you think and believe in your mind that they do not deserve to exist, should be known to the world. Even if you succeeded in doing that, God forbid, then you would be dragging down people of India with you. I am confident that there are enough sane people in India who would see through people like you and not take you and your thoughts seriously.

[AKalam]

Quotations are there a plenty, but please look at the track record of Islam, how many races it has mixed from distant corners of the world.

hmm... didn't colonialism/imperialism also 'mix' many races from distant corners of the world?!!

Indeed, but don't you think it is a good thing that they did that instead of just extracting wealth and resources? Personally I do not support any kind of colonialism/imperialism and am sorry that people had invaded other people's land, but no one can change what has already happened.

[ramana]

All how is the above looking at Pakistan related?

No more follow ups after my post.
Thanks, ramana

[brihaspati]

This is not a follow-up. But some general statements to be repeated about my views on Pakistan.

(1) I have consistently, from the time I have started posting, said, I am not against the common Paki, and I am only against the mullahcracy+feudals+army. I am against the theological institutional mechanism for retrogression, and I believe that human minds can always be turned towards progress or the good. But it becomes difficult or nearly impossible if the rashtra itself backs up the semi-fascist organization of the mullahs - which is what happens in Pakistan.

(2) the Dawaist leadership+feudal kingpins+army is the one to be neutralized. Those among them who refuse to fall in line and take up arms will have to face arms. That is all. I have repeatedly protested dehumanizing the aam Paki in our posts.

(3) I seek the overthrow of the power structure of the mullahcracy+feudals+army. I would promise land reforms and land redistribution away from Dawaist+feudal+army control - to the landless and the marginal farmers. I would promise access to capital and capacity building towards infratsructure, both human and supporting, for SME's. A lot of which can be funded by appropriation of the assets accumulated by the Dawaists+feudals+army. I would legislate specifically to give equality and opportunity to women.

I would like to see which side the millions walk over to. I cannot see them walk if they are dead. Everytime I criticize the preservation of Pakistan as a state, or the protection of mullahcracy which is the cause of infinite pain and humiliation and dehumanization of ordinary millions - those closet voices who want this inhumanity to continue come out in protest under various excuses. Sometimes it is the claimed fanatical devotion of millions to the mullahcracy cause, or self-defence, or the supposed trauma of war and loss of trade and profits and growth of prosperity or the presumed attribution of genocide [perhaps from the awarness of genocide as a core tool in the theology itself and hence fearing mimicing from the "other"]. But in each case it is the voice of an urban self-appointed spokesperson on behalf of millions on both sides of the border.

Just as some elite individuals of India think they can declare for all of Indian society in favour of pseudo-secularism in favour of particular theologies, or their reconstructions of India's history and society and guarantees of future behaviour - those who want to protect the Pakistani system and its theological support structure also declare on behalf of their favoured theology and guarantee their society's future behaviour. Both are equally disconnected from their respective larger societies in India and Pakistan - and are suffering from the delusions of their own rashtryia propaganda.

If anyone is in any doubt, one can give a search on the forum threads using keywords for my posts of relevance.

[ramana]

carl, am moving to off-topic thread.

ramana

[VikramS]

brihaspatiji:

Having gone through this thread, I see no need for you to defend your view against AKalam's interpretation. It is natural for him to fit anything you say to his perspective. While he is trying his best to adapt his perspective to be palatable to the BR audience, he is human and his biases will show through. "Jat Hindu Racism", "crusude to destroy Islam" "wiping millions" etc.

Almost every third Punjabi is a Dalit, but you rarely hear about anti-Dalit issues in Punjab; you actually see signs like "Putr chamar da" clearly showing a sense of pride and no fear when they claim their Dalit identity. But he still has to bring in the issue of Dalit Sikhs.

I noticed that AKji ignored some of the inconvenient truths you mentioned (like the Noakhali genocide and its followup), or the blatant, unbashed racism by the Arabs against non-Arabs (fully visible in the way they treat foreign workers).

AKalamji: Islam and Christians may tolerate Dharma, but they do not respect it. This is unlike the reverse where a typical Dharmic will respect the right of a Muslim/Christian to worship their own faith. You can call it a crusade or whatever you want to call it, but it is a simple expectation of reciprocity. That it has hard for the Abrahamics to reciprocate respect, speaks more about them than anything wrong with Dharmic faiths.

Why dont you articulate a path on how the Muslims will actually start respecting the Dharmic instead of barely tolerating them?

All you have done so far is misconstrue what others are saying and then go on other forums and spread more hatred about the Dharmic people.

[AKalam]

If India contemplates any agression to unseat the "Dawaist leadership+feudal kingpins+army" by force, I think the result may not be very predictable.

One possible way IMHO to remove this menace from the scene is to empower the civil society in Pakistan and bring it to power in a Pakistani spring. It may take 10 years, but I believe there is no other short cut. Current Arab spring is bringing to power many Islamists, because that is the only organized opposition force in those spaces. In about a decade, democracy will evolve in Arab lands and more progressive people friendly forces will come to power, which will mean less and less extremism. Even in GCC, the monarchies will have to go through political reforms, because people's eyes in the region have become wide open to new possibilities. This will have negative impact on the Wahabi/salafi funding in the world and hopefully help reduce related extremism.

A society is like a complex organism IMO, it evolves in its own way. I believe that when British India was partitioned, it produced 3 dysfunctional units, all 3 suffering trauma. When a whole functioning unit is cut into 3 pieces, it takes time to heal and reorganize. The healing process still continues for India and Bangladesh, but Pakistan unfortunately never had time to heal, because not only did it blunder in 1947-1971, it was next to Afghanistan which compounded its problems. The result is for all to see, the pernicious "Dawaist leadership+feudal kingpins+army" is still very much in power and calling the shots, which is not the case in India since 1947, or in Bangladesh since 1991. So I think we need to give Pakistan a chance to make its own improvements, by sidelining and marginalizing its armed forces.

The US and India are both stake holders in this problem and both should invest in the democratization of Pakistan. Afghanistan is a secondary problem. It will stabilize when the Pakistan problem is solved.

Notice that in this solution and outcomes from it is a win win for India, Pakistan as well as the US. Somebody has to lose and that somebody is China, but that is because it was fishing in muddy water, as we say in Bengali. It was taking unfair advantage at the expense of a better future for the people of this region.

My apologies for my tone in my earlier posts.

VikramS ji, I respect Sanatana Dharma and people who follow it. I also believe in cultural/religious revivalism, but aggressive strands must be kept under control to avoid missteps.

As for Muslims respecting Dharmics, I think it will happen over time as people become more educated and evolved, including myself. As you mentioned my biases shows through, after all I am only human (and Muslim) and I still have ways to go to improve myself.

[vina]

The US and India are both stake holders in this problem and both should invest in the democratization of Pakistan. Afghanistan is a secondary problem. It will stabilize when the Pakistan problem is solved

Sorry, I am not so optimistic about Pakistan , much less Afghanistan and about the wider "islamic world" in general,including Bangladesh.

Problem is that there is a massive modernity deficit in the Islamic world and what drives is a nihilistic wholly bogus "vision" of a mythical golden age of the time of the Prophet /his companions whatever. It is in a medieval time wrap. The west came out of that after the protestant reformation with it's kernel in a certain Martin Luther, who nailed his questions on the door of a church. Who /Where is the Muslim Martin Luther, who will nail the questions on the door of a Mosque ? Where is the Martin Luther ,who will propagate the use of Bengali, Urdu, Kashmiri, Tamil, Marathi , Bahasa Indonesia, Malay etc and all the languages for sacerdotal use instead of Arabic ?

Oil to the middle east is a curse. Allah's curse if you will. That Martin Luther could have emerged only from the Fertile Crescent of the Levant (Egypt/North Africa, Lebabon, Syria, Turkey, Iran), places of culture, civilization and learning in the days gone by. But by giving a lot of unearned wealth and by extension, power, and leadership to the Saudi Barbarians and the Mad Ayotollahs in Iran, Allah has cursed the Muslim Ummah with retardement, atrophy of his greatest gift to man, one that distinguishes us from animals (the gray matter between the ears) and long term decay , leading to being swept away in the detreitus of history.

The day, an effective substitute for oil is invented (as it surely will), the entire Islamic world will collapse economically and with the state of modernity deficit and lack of achievements (scientific, cultural etc), the economic bankruptcy will complete the circle and it will be the end of the Islamic world.

[member_20617]

AKalam

You wrote the following in your two posts:
(1)For Muslims themselves, it was simply a need for them to keep their gene pool pure and avoid mixing with locals as much as possible
(2)Islam has an interesting role in this race mixing, which ultimately works to reduce racism in humanity.

On one hand you are stating that Muslims needed to keep their gene pool pure but on the other hand you talk about Islam having an interesting role in this race mixing. Isn’t this contradictory?

Islam would not have expanded beyond Saudi Arabia if Muslims wanted to keep their gene pool pure!

I also noticed that once Deveshji started to expose your unsubstantiated claims about ‘Hindu Jat Racism’, you started to show your true colours, that is your ‘fear’ of India taking over Bangladesh with a lightly veiled threat of ‘the vast educated middle class, who will be standing on the way’

It puzzles me that you (and millions of other Muslims of Indian sub-continent) are far more loyal to Islam, which I consider to be a form of Arab Imperialism, than your ancestry which is definitely Hindu!

I think Swami Vivekananda rightly said: ‘One more convert to Islam and one more enemy’.

Before I could post the above, I read your latest post.

You wrote:
(1)Current Arab spring is bringing to power many Islamists
(2) In about a decade, democracy will evolve in Arab lands and more progressive people friendly forces will come to power

Another contradiction from you!

My answer:
Islam does NOT believe in separating religion from politics. Islamists do NOT like democracy. Democracy does not survive very long in Islamic countries. Of course there would be exceptions like Indonesia.

[vishvak]

If Brahmin girl did not have white skin and/or was not pretty, preference would be for a prettier lower caste girl with whiter skin. I never denied that Muslim migrants married local girls when they initially came. If any mixed Muslim girl was not available, they would go for a local girl and preferrably high born ones who were obviously better looking. But once they have established their communities, newly arrived males and males that grew up in the community would rarely marry outside their Ashraf community, this trend continued till Ashraf landownership was upset during British rule. This is what I can tell from family history in our region in Bengal. The looting and conversion during partition and later were, by and large, done by hoodlums of the community, not at all common for "Bhadrolok" muslim families. My grand father had good relations with local Hindu Zamindars, Roy Chowdhury's and was sorry to see their family move to Kolkata.
...
Hasina and her AL are after power, just like Mujib was. They use India, Hindu vote-bank and the power/money hungry within Bangladesh, the mirage of "Islamic conquest" and polemics that you are peddling is illusion in your mind which you want to propagate. Perhaps you want to become another Savarkar, who knows. Your mode of operation seems to be mastering history, appear knowledgeable and selectively use it to convince people a version of reality that you would like people to believe in. And of course keep dehumanizing the scape goat, the other. Not much different than Fox News and neo-cons. I could not believe at first that characters like you existed, that you really believe in this stuff, but life is full of surprises.
...

Here is a situation as it is whereby 'hoodlooms' can kidnap Hindu girls & loot and what not, without Bhadralok doing anything and still 'Bhadralok' and feeling sorry for ethnic cleansing. So who is neo-con here? Is failing to see pain of kidnapped Hindu girls not de-humanizing? Is there anything hidden at all? What is to be then said about those who openly gave calls for invasions in the past and who call for making others dhimmi as anything other than uncivilized to Hindus?

When one talks of multireligious society, how is it that it is okay to have mecca and medina for Muslims only as accepted situation, but at the same time there is complete silence over exclusivity to Hindus at place revered by Hindus?

[member_20617]

AKalam

From what you have stated it confirms my view that Muslims have always targeted Hindu women and it is still continuing.

How would Muslims feel if Hindus were to target, say Ashrafi Muslim women?

Previously you wrote: For Muslims themselves, it was simply a need for them to keep their gene pool pure and avoid mixing with locals as much as possible.

Now you say that ‘I never denied that Muslim migrants married local girls when they initially came.

You don’t even know that you are contradicting yourself!LoL

[Rahul M]

Quotations are there a plenty, but please look at the track record of Islam, how many races it has mixed from distant corners of the world.

was it ever a homogenous mixture or a coming together of different races in a very particular social stratification ?
you should be well aware of how bangladeshi muslim workers are treated in ME countries.

while the concept of dividing humanity into 'us and them' or 'civilized and uncivilized' might be common to mankind, discrimination along skin colour (aka racism) is a feature that is originally found only in islamic cultures and then in christian societies post renewed interaction with non whites. AFAIK pre christian european cultures, the romans or greeks were equally discriminatory towards everyone else, whether white or non-white.

racism is thus, not a natural by-product of human cultures that is common to all societies.

[shiv]

Quotations are there a plenty, but please look at the track record of Islam, how many races it has mixed from distant corners of the world.

What is a "race"?

Is Pakistani Punjabi marriage with Bengali Muslim "mixed race"?

Do Muslims require visas to enter Islamic countries?

Oh I know Allah is egalitarian. His followers' tack record needs some examination.

[devesh]

Islam has an interesting role in this race mixing, which ultimately works to reduce racism in humanity.

this is the most loathsome statement that I've yet seen on BRF.

this sentence, though made by a non-pakistani, shines a lot of light of the mentality imposed by Islam. this "race mixing" is wholly new to me. is "race mixing" good when it happens under the shadow of genocide? is it good when it happens forcefully? when it is imposed on a society by killing off the males and boys above 10 years of age and forcefully enslaving the women in harems? is it good when this "race mixing" is actually the lust of men that is forcefully imposed on women?

AKalam, I suggest you stop while you still have some minute shred of respect still left on this forum. some months ago, a Paki made a comment in some forum about some comments that you supposedly made about BRF and Indians. at that time, there were many on BRF who defended you by saying your track record on BRF didn't indicate any Islamist fervor and we shouldn't jump to conclusions based on comments by some Paki.

you've made a grand comeback and the first comment you make is: genocide of Bangladeshis by Pakjabis is because of "Hindu Jat racism". and to top it all off: Islam was the reason for "race mixing". AKalam, I might get warned for this, but I believe that you deserve this answer from me: you might like to have your ancestral males killed off and your ancestral women becoming sex slaves to invading foreigners, but I, among many crores of others, don't really care for such a thing, and the feelings that are generated by those who do care for it, are nothing short of utmost disgust and an everlasting sense of shame that the Indian subcontinent is home to such people.

the strong reaction from me is because there are at least 2 uncomfortably close cases of "males killed off and women becoming sex slaves" in the extended family dating back to the events 60 years ago. one women, sister of grandfather, committed suicide. another, was eventually brought back and the male who took her disappeared without trace ( ).

I won't even bother going into whether Islam actually reduced racism or not....absolutely disgusting.

[member_20617]

AKalam wrote:
If Brahmin girl did not have white skin and/or was not pretty, preference would be for a prettier lower caste girl with whiter skin.

BRF moderators
This is a very derogatory statement. Why is this guy allowed to post the above?

He is projecting Hindu women as some kind of cheap, saleable commodities.

Kya Hindu aurat aap ke baap ka maal hai? He is not affording any dignity whatsoever to Hindu women!

[brihaspati]

Akalam bhai,
There were too many things you mentioned about ex-East-Pakistan, that I could have immediately problematize. There are simply too many docs in my repositories as to what really drives or controls the ruling sections [all of its major factions] in that region, their continued sympathies and connections to Pakistan and the ME mediated by third countries [yes in the west and particularly in the UK] - to contradict almost every thing that you have stated. However as Ramanaji has pointed out - it would go massively OT, and hence I desisted.

In both the ends of Pakistan the real dispute was, is and will remain land. This is solidly connected to the Dawaist need to insulate its manpower from the effects of modern education that forces people to quest and query against revealed wisdom. Thus a basic primal agrarian economy and biological reproduction is the main thrust that can sustain itself to an extent - the pressures of technological societies. Thus the greater the pressures to catch on technologically, greater is the mullahcracy's fascistic attempt to control state power - directly or indirectly.

As for what will happen in Pakistan if "mullahcray+feudals+army" is targeted by India, the result is not unpredictable. There will be resistance, and initially a lot of education and livelihood deprived males will have their blood boiling and eager to take up arms. Once they take up arms they become combatants and they no longer remain civilians. You think an India that brings the situation to where this happens will not create the justifications for the situation before it goes into it? But Pakistanis are more bluster and less of a jang then they pretend to be. You must be aware of this from your birth country's expereinces. Pakistani jihad and bravery is most expressed on captured women and children or POW's, and under ambush and deceptive attacks.

If the genetic theory of martial races were true - that real fighting spirit or its absence is carried in the bloodlines - then obviously the Pakis do not have that martial genes. if they claim that they are descended from Arabs - then look at how quickly the Arabs lost power after the temporary success against older more ethics-ruled societies and empires which fell from a combination of exhaustion and drought. Within almost 200 years, that dominance was replaced by dependence on ex-slave Turks - who quickly overthrew Arab rule and established their own. They in turn were sacked by the Mongols. The mongols were sacked others in turn.

Thus from Alexander to Kushanas to Sabuktigin to Timur to Babar, Pakistanis are one long bloodline of quick losers and bootlickers of their thrashers. As you hope for - there will be initial flurry of resistance and swashbuckling. But that resistance will quickly collapse.

I repeat - the theology is particularly concerned about safety and preservation of its core reproducability, and it always submits and withdraws when it sees the possibility of getting erased, if there is hope for a truce that will help the mullahcracy survive to grow back one day and carry out a genocide to prevent a repeat of their crisis. They are trained, geared - for genocide and replacement of all other thought processes and cultures. In fact they do not need high technological intelligence to maintain this - it simply needs a cunning and single-minded focus on elimination of all "others".

We understand the psyche much better now, so we can take what steps are needed for manipulation. So please do not worry about our failure. If you have any reasons to be worried about our success - you are most welcome to do so.

[VikramS]

AKji:

It is not important whether you as an individual respect Dharma, it is what Islam as a faith, as a social and as a political system does. Can you can provide some evidence to the contrary? Nothing I have seen or read suggests that.

The mullahs+feudal form the pillars of support of the practice of Islam, not the civil society. The civil society is just a taqqiya agent. Anyone who strays like Taseer gets Qadrified. So BPji is right in principle: Dharma will not get respect as long as the mullah+feudal hold sway.

I am overawed by the amount of negative perception about Dharma which is created among the Muslims/Christians, and the hypocrisy which is accepted as Gospel Truth. Those dalit Sikhs you were so concerned about have the freedom to pursue their own faith. Guru Ravidass was from the chamar caste; his sayings are a part of the Adi Granth and dalits are free to pursue Ravidassia. No dalit is held captive by Hinduism or Sikh; they are free to pursue whatever faith they feel will offer them a better path.

Now what happens when someone wants to leave Islam. By law he is Wajib-ul-Qatl and even in the second decade of the 21st century we have seen enough high profile killings (and not just in the sub-continent) to know that the doctrine is alive.

The fact of the matter is that being born Muslim is also being born a spiritual captive. You have no choice since abdication of Islam will bring you death.

What BPji is articulating is actually the unfortunate reality. Most Dharmic people tend to shun violence. However what to do when you are dealing with a group which encourages the use of violence to further its cause if verbal, social and economic intimidation does not work? Most of us have lived with people who have endured violence carried out in the name of Islam. So that brutality is not just something we read about, it is something we have been touched by.

But the first articulation of the fact that the battle against the Islamists will not just remain in the spiritual domain, gets your undies in knots. It seems you do not have any problem (or have no choice but to accept it) when the Islamists practice violence to further their cause. However if the dharmic realize that you cannot accept it.

It is actually good that you wrote what you wrote that at least the misconception (or false hope) of people here gets laid to rest.

[brihaspati]

Akalam bhai,
one of the curiosities that struck me in your posts was the mentions
(a) your accusation that I was going against the tide - by which you meant the supposed general convergence of Amreeki+yahudi with the Sunni, and hence I would be wiped off. Do you take the supposed convergence [which is tactical if at all and not ideological] to be representative of the world turning Islamist? Otherwise how would I be going against the tide?

(b) but then you are also saying that eventually "Islam" along with "Sanatana Dharma" and "Christianity" will eventually go down [ I can understand the possible approach - "if mine goes down I am taking yours too down with me" so that you cannot think just of Islam say going down alone]. So the tide must be headed in my preferred direction - right?

Or you do not see any contradiction here?

[darshhan]

Deleted.....

[Agnimitra]

^^ darshhan ji, that was totally uncalled for, IMHO.

[abhishek_sharma]

darshhan miyan, we should not stoop to that level.

[Prem]

As i said before , debate in purity and chaste will waste the taste in haste . Mate, The issue will be decided only in Khet to be sent back and bury under the original Rait so no need to take the Bait but get prepare to seal the Fate.

[RajeshA]

Jhujar ji,
tussi kamal de ho ji!

[AKalam]

To esteemed BRF gurus and moderators, I see that my presence has become divisive. To my knowledge, I have not expressed disrespect to India or Indian people in any of my post, although I see a lot of misinterpretations and quoting out of context. It seems hard for many to believe that someone like me can actually wish well for people of India. I will take temporary or permanent leave, if it is considered better for the forum.

[Agnimitra]

AKalam ji,

As we say in India - dil pe mat le, haath mein le. If you are willing to have a genuine discussion of points, I think you are most welcome to stay. I had responded to your post, but my response got moved to the Off Topic thread in GDF:

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 8#p1250488

[Prem]

Kalam ji
Even though TNT is rejected by the Indian leaders , there are lots of truth in it. India cannot be defined and restricted to be viewed from the point of view of Islamic paradigm . Arab originated Islam is historical fact but a a small part in Indian continuum and it will never have the status of determining factor for Indian civilizational trajectory. It has limited role to play and thats it. Indics dont make Islamic type demands on non Indics of South Asia and expect same from others.

[harbans]

IMHO Pakistan is a tremendously 'successful' state. It's been taken from a large chunk of Indian territory that was under Dharmic influence for millenia. Today it has achieved it's Islamist aims of almost total elimination of minorities. It eyes more territory in whats left of India after 47. It has great support from other powers. It has been fundamentalizing and strengthening it's Islamist ideology all along. It has demographic advantage which will become more transparent in a few decades. And if it continues obviously Pakistan, BD and Indian Muslims will be more in number than Dharmics in the subcontinent in our own generation..not the next. So Pakistan viewed from that prism is certainly not a failed state as yet.

The problem is that there is growing awareness, specially through the internet that Islam is a dominating religion. It fundamentally does not believe in coexistence. Most Muslims according to their doctrine would prefer Sharia over a secular set up if it is possible. The role of Dhimmi for the unbeliever is a given in any Muslim society. So is it wrong for Dharmics to get their chaddi's in a twist and antenna up at what is happening in Pakistan, what happened in BD, what is happening in some Muslim majority areas in India itself? Is it wrong for them to contemplate defeating majoritarianism of excluvist ideology in the only land where Dharmics are left? The reactions to Kalam Ji's statements are only a fear/ reaction to that possibility.

If Islamists can make non believers Dhimmi, is it unfair if their own ideology is inflicted to them in inverse? As long as Islam remains unreformed, reactions to it's tenets by unbelievers are simply that, not pro active forumlations, but phobic reactions. Islam in reality can never be the victim, if it subscribes to the Dhimmi ideology. If it believes in persecuting, taxing and unequal rights for the Dhimmi..it should not expect in fairness any better from the unbelievers.

Unfortunately most unbelievers/ Dharmics etc in most modern and civilized nations don't want to get about bias in individual rights. There will be a time when a section of Dharmics/ unbelievers will get together to put a stop to nonsensical doctrine taking the garb of religion. Nazism for example did not entail elimination of all Germans. Targeted hitting of the Institutions that upheld that doctrine was enough for example. Germany today is the anti thesis of what it was 60 years ago. Same with Japan. So wrt Islamism there will be events that will be points of no return. Either Islamism is reversed by it's adherents and it's political component isolated from it's practise, or it will face what it intends to do with others albeit in a limited way.

The best way out of this would be for Islamic nations providing equal rights and opportunities for minorities under there constitutions. That i see is not happening. No Muslim organizations clamor for that. If they do they hardly have any voice in there own nation and just serve to delude liberals in civilized nations, which many are now catching up to.

IF someone wanted to kill me and my family and while running with his sword at us tripped and fell on it and died, i would laugh. Wouldn't feel one bit sorry. Same with all humans. If you don't like something done on you, don't do it on someone else. If you don't believe in that axiom, don't cry victim if someone does it on you. Islamists will have to learn this dictum at some point of time, if not by themselves then it will have to be forced upon them.

[RCase]

One of the things that I have noticed is that most Pakistanis (the ones on TV shows) have elevated Jinnah to a demi god status and are never critical of him – Jinnah can do no wrong. Most of the Pakistanis beat around the bush when it comes to Jinnah’s actions, including the so called liberals and intellectuals. Even those that are critical of the state of affairs of Pakistan or can see the spiral downward due to the flawed policies adopted from independence, never ever question Jinnah. Apart from the one statement made by Altaf Hussain, which he kind of later back pedaled, with qualifiers, I have yet to hear a single person in Pakistan unequivocally question the legitimacy of TNT or question the necessity of partition.

I contrast that to varied opinions in India about our leaders during the Independence struggle – including Gandhi, Nehru, Patel, Bose etc. Despite a good majority of people who respect Gandhi and Nehru, there have been severe criticisms of some of their actions and thoughts.

Could it be that an entire country is so delusional or is suffering from severe cognitive dissonance or chooses to keep parroting nonsense out of fear? I am inclined to think that significant psychological blows to the TNT would snap these guys out of their stupor.

[ramana]

He is almost Prophet status?

[Prem]

Rcase
Djinah foolfil the need for having a Messiah who can single handledly accomplish the Delilan task of underming the Somsonian Kaffirs . Little they realize that its not what they accomplished but what the were given to detach and remove the fungus from the feet of fair India . The received what they did not earn and like fools' money they are loosing it by the day. Promoting Djinnah is good to numb the sleeping mind of Poaqdumb. Once they start examining the losses they might wake up and start doing the actual thinking and we loose all these Shadai , Kamle competeing to be the best retard among the genuine retards of various degrees.

[ramana]

There is book called "Virus of the Mind" by Richard Brodie. Its a study of memes and how they influence the mind.

We should identify the TSP memes and Abrahamic religious memes: Judaism, Christianity, Islam and its derivatives.

[shiv]

There is book called "Virus of the Mind" by Richard Brodie. Its a study of memes and how they influence the mind.

We should identify the TSP memes and Abrahamic religious memes: Judaism, Christianity, Islam and its derivatives.

The following video, cross posted from Benis gives me a thouth.

Why not make a list of Pakistani names derived from kafir Indian memes - like Butt

Pakistanis are Indians not Arabs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YfUFuQliQ8
[youtube]5YfUFuQliQ8&feature=related[/youtube]

[darshhan]

To esteemed BRF gurus and moderators, I see that my presence has become divisive.

AKalam , Who told you the above ? Far from becoming divisive , your presence is actually uniting us.You are a unifying force.We would like to see you continue as before so that we can keep on getting valuable insight into latest variations of Taqiyya.

[shiv]

^^^^
we might score a self goal by that commentary, but in long term it's self defeating. we need to highlight to the world that Pak is India gone deracinated. we need to let the world know this is what India is like when we are totally deracinated.

and Pak itself needs to be reminded every now and then that they are actually Indians. historically, genetically, they are Indians and by trying to cut that off, they are only bleeding themselves....their trade/economy has depended on GV for thousands of years. they are India. they share language, food, clothing with Indian population. Punjab.

Saarjii, Pray tell us why do you want to restore the == when we all have been fighting to break this sinful comparison. Is Pakistan only India gone deracinated ? Is that the only thing that differentiates a Paki from Indian. I mean thos Indians who are deracinated are scheming to kill people in NY and London and Mumbai. they are slaughtering innocent people like animals and justifying the killing using some convoluted religious discourse.
Sorry I think the biggest self goal would be when we somehow relink ourselves back to Pakistan.

And no Pakis are NOT Indians. Just like we all were Africans once upon a time (Assuming the theory that all humans came out of Africa is correct) does not mean we still are Africans. Pakis were Indians but they stopped being one exactly on 14th Aug 1947.
They are part of Kabila and we have nothing in common with them.
Heck Some part of India shares language and food and culture with Bangladeshis or Sri Lankans or Western Euorpe. Does that mean They all are Indians ? Being Indian is not just food and dress and Language or being Punjabi.

Part of my "Never forgive, Never forget" is to remember that Pakis are not us. What we share with them is something we share with roaches and parasites..That is space on this earth.
I say Let Pakis be identified as wannabe murderous Arabs or ME or Turks or CAians or whatever they want to be but not Indians anymore. Never again.

Rainagaru - you are delving into pisko 101. Pakistanis are separate from India only so long as India and the world consider them separate. For the Pakistani, Indian==Hindu==hates me/hates Islam/muslims

Therefore an Indian==Hindu who hates Pakistanis is exactly what they need for their identity. Killing Pakistan is killing their identity as separate from India. This was started long before BRF and it hurt Pakistanis enough so they started discarding their India connection and started looking westwards and embraced Islam closer and tried to take on an Arab identity.

You need not like them, but by calling them Indians you are hurting them where it hurts the most. The greater the number of Pakistanis who buy into an Indian identity, the weaker Pakistan becomes. Good. They also know that. Let them do whatever they want knowing that. How far can they take it? Pakistan survives with an anti-India stance only so long as they have external support. That external support is having its balls squeezed by the religion of peace.

Pakistanis have their balls in a vise and it is interesting to see how they can turn back 5000 years of history based on a 1000 year old identity imposed by rapist invaders. You raped my mum and I was born. Now you are my hero. That is Pakistaniyat. Pakistanis are descendants of raped Indian women. They are not Arab. But they are ba4tards al right. They don't recall their ancestry.

[Lalmohan]

shiv - its worse than that. 2% of them are the progeny of rape, the remaining 98% are the progeny of coercion
yet 100% of them believe themselves to be the progeny of rape
that has got to mess your head up

[ramana]

X-Post...

Tawariya Khadam,Sacha Jhootha Poaqa

A country for minorities
Moh Sin Ham Id

There are two ways of explaining why Pakistan was created. One is to say that the impulse for Pakistan was a Muslim-nationalist impulse. That is what we are taught in school and probably what most Pakistanis believe.
But there is another explanation. And it is this: the drive to form Pakistan was rooted in the notion of minority rights. During the haggling that preceded independence, most Muslim leaders initially wanted constitutional safeguards protecting the rights of a Muslim minority within Hindu-majority India. Only when they decided this would not be possible did partition become their aim. Even then, British India did not necessarily have to become just two countries with a burning enmity: India and Pakistan. It could as easily have been split into several: perhaps a northwestern country that included not just current Pakistan but also the Indian-controlled part of Kashmir and Indian Punjab, as Jinnah himself had wanted; a northeastern country centred around a unified Bangladesh and Indian Bengal; and a variety of other countries between them and to their south.Each of these countries would have contained large minorities of all kinds. But each could quite possibly have been more manageable and easier to govern than either post-partition India or the united Pakistan that included both our present country and what is now Bangladesh. Yet an independent Balochistan would in itself solve little. Balochistan is almost half non-Baloch. What of the rights of the non-Baloch in Balochistan? And what, for that matter, of the rights of non-Pashtu speakers in Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa, non-Punjabi speakers in Punjab, non-Sindhi speakers in Sindh, non-Urdu speakers in Karachi? What of the rights of Pakistani Shias and Christians and Hindus and atheists?

(BDY, we are happy the partition happend and exposed the ideological Poaqusskaz)

The writer sees his Temporary State of Pakistan unravelleing and whishes the same for India.

[SBajwa]

Lalmohan sir!! and inbreeding (due to Arabian influence) by Islamic masses has increased the propensity of hating others or blaming others for their problems or self pity.

[Atri]

While we ponder upon a "new way" of looking at Pakistan -



सभाध्यक्ष - पौरसभा मे उपस्थित कुलमुख्यों व तक्षशिला के गणमान्य नागरिकों का मैं हार्दिक स्वागत करता हूँ. तक्षशिला के समक्ष उपस्थित पश्चिमी देशों से निरंतर आ रहे शरणार्थियों की समस्या को लेकर महाराज आम्भिराज के विशेष आग्रह के कारण आजकी इस पौरसभा का अधिवेशन बुलाया गया हैं. जैसा की आपको विदित ही होगा की पश्चिम के और से हजारों की संख्या मे आबाल-वृद्ध, स्त्री-पुरुष, पारस, हरहवती, बाख्त्री आदि देशों से प्रतिदिन पश्चिमी भारत की नगरियों मे शरण लेने के लिए आ रहें हैं. शरणार्थियों का कथन हैं की यहाँ से हजारों योजन दूर, यवन देश का एक महान योद्धा अलक्षेन्द्र, मिस्र, पारस, बाख्त्री, हरहवती, शकस्थान आदि देशों पर विजय प्राप्त करता हुआ पूर्व दिशाकी ओर बढ़ रहा हैं. जो भी उसके सामर्थ्य को चुनौती देता हैं उसे धुल मे मिला दिया जाता हैं. उसी यवन अलक्षेन्द्र ने शरणार्थियों के घरबार उजाड दिए. उसीको अत्याचारों से पीड़ित होकर इन्हें अपनी मातृभूमि का त्याग करने के लिए बाध्य होना पड़ा. अनिश्चित भविष्य से भयभीत, अपनी मातृभूमि का त्याग करने के दुःख से ग्रस्त, भूख और अभाव से ग्रस्त ये शरणार्थी आपके समक्ष दया, कृपा की अपेक्षा से आये हैं. उन्हें शरण देना या न देना आपके मानवीय दृष्टिकोण पर निर्भर करता हैं. इसी सम्बन्ध मे कुलमुख्य अपने अपने विचार सभा मे प्रकट करने के लिए आमंत्रित हैं.

भूरिग्रवा - शरणार्थियों को आश्रय देना हमारी परंपरा रही हैं. और इस परंपरा का निर्वाह करने मे हमारा लाभ भी हैं. शरणार्थियों के पुनर्वसन से एक तो तक्षशिला का श्रमिक बल बढ़ेगा. और दूसरे, वे शरणार्थी ही तक्षशिला के शिल्पियों कलाकारों द्वारा निर्मित वस्तुओं के उपभोक्ता भी होंगे. इस प्रकार तक्षशिला मे व्यापार का विकास ही होगा. इसके अतिरिक्त इससे दो देशों के भावी संबंधों मे विकास भी होगा.

अज्ञात कुल्मुख्य - शरणार्थियों को आश्रय देने का मैं मानवतावादी दृष्टिकोण से समर्थन करता हूँ.

रिपुदमन - बंद करो परंपरा और मानवता की बातें. हम ही मानवता और परंपरा की बातें करतें हैं और हम ही कुचले जातें हैं. दो देशों के संबंधों के विकास की बातें करने वाले कुलमुख्य भुरिग्रवा की बात मान ली जाये तो तक्षशिला के नागरिक यह निश्चित समझें की शीघ्र ही तक्षशिला भी खंड खंड मे बटा जर्जरित दिखाई देगा. जिन विदेशियों को शरण देनेकी बात आप कह रहें हैं कर वे भी तक्षशिला की भूमिपर अपने अधिकारों का दावा करेंगे. जिस मानवतावाद की दुहाई दे आप उन्हें शरण देनेकी योजना बना रहें हैं उन्ही मानवतावादियों की धरती कल धर्म-जाती के संघर्ष से लाल हो उठेगी. और धरती का कोई मानवतावादी उस संघर्ष मे उठी तलवारों को रोकने के लिए नहीं उठेगा. कल यही शरणार्थी आपके साथ पौरसभा मे बैठेंगे और आपके निर्णयों को प्रभावित करेंगे.

भुरिग्रवा - धर्म और जाती के नाम पर परम्पराओं को कलंकित मत करो, रिपुदमन...

रिपुदमन - सत्य को स्वीकार करो, भुरिग्रवा. जहाँ तक्षशिला के भविष्य का प्रश्न हैं वहां भावनाओं का कोई स्थान नहीं हैं. हमारा धर्म अलग, हमारी भाषा अलग, हमारा व्यवहार अलग. कल इन्ही भेदों के नामपर भेदभाव होगा और संघर्ष होगा. हम अपनी परम्पराओं को नहीं छोडना चाहते तो क्या वे अपनी परम्पराओं को छोड़ेंगे? कल यही शरणार्थी आपके राज्य का अविभाज्य अंग होंगे और यही आपके सामने बैठकर अपने तथाकथित अधिकारों की मांग करेंगे. तब आपका मानवतावादी ह्रदय उनपर हथियार उठाने मे संकोच महसूस करेगा. क्या पौरसभा मुझे आश्वासन दे सकती हैं की कल शरणार्थियों के कारण गांधार खंडित नहीं होगा? क्या कोई पौर मुझे ये आश्वासन दे सकता हैं की कल यही शरणार्थी अपनीअपनी मातृभूमि लौट जायेंगे? क्या पौरसभा स्वयं आश्वस्त हैं की शरणार्थियों के पुनर्वसन के नाम पर तक्षशिला का शासन नागरिकों पर नविन करों का बोझ नहीं लादेगा? क्या सभाध्यक्ष तक्षशिला के नागरिकों को वचन दे सकते हैं की शासन शरणार्थियों का किसीभी प्रकार से राजनितिक लाभों के लिए उपयोग नहीं करेगा?

अनेक कुलमुख्य - सभाध्यक्ष उत्तर दें....

सभाध्यक्ष - मैं सभा मे उपस्थित नागरिकों से पूछता हूँ - क्या केवल अनिश्चित भविष्य के डर से हम विषपायी शिव की परंपरा छोड़ दें? क्या दधिची और शिबी की स्मृति हमारे मानस से लुप्त हो चुकी हैं? क्या हम अपनीही परम्परों को तोड्नेका आवाहन करें? शरण वही दे सकते हैं जिनमे सामर्थ्य होता हैं. क्या हममे सामर्थ्य नहीं हैं? स्वेच्छा से विष वही पीता हैं जिसमे विष को पचानेका साहस होता हैं. क्या विषपायियों के वंशज नहीं हैं हम? क्या अपनीही अस्थियों को दे कर अपनी परम्पराओं की जीवित रखने का आग्रह खो चुकें हैं हम?

रिपुदमन - अध्यक्ष आप भावुक हो रहें हैं.

सभाध्यक्ष - मैं आप लोगों से पूछता हूँ.

रिपुदमन - यदि इनमे से कोई अलक्षेन्द्र का गुप्तचर निकला तो?

सभाध्यक्ष - भेदी तो घर मे भी हो सकता हैं. यदि तक्षशिला का ही कोई नागरिक ही भेदी हुआ तो? निर्णय संभावनाओं पर नहीं होता.

रिपुदमन - देखूंगा.. अवश्य देखूंगा.. जब कोई अलक्षेन्द्र तुम्हारी परम्पराओं पर आक्रमण करेगा तब कैसे अपनी परम्पराओं की रक्षा करते हो.

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Speaker - I welcome the representatives of various clans residing in our nation-state - Taxila. Taxila is facing the issue of countless immigrants pouring into India from north-west. As you are well aware, refugees are pouring into cities of western and north-western India from Persia, Bactria, Harahavati river basin in lakhs. They report of a Greek invader, Alexander, from thousands of miles away, is marching eastwards after having defeated Egypt, Persia, Scythia and Bactria. It is due to Alexander's excesses that these refugees lost their homes and were forced to leave their homelands and come as refugees in India. Afraid of uncertain future, troubled by hunger and danger, they look towards you expecting to receive warmth and compassion. Whether to accord them refuge depends upon your humanitarian outlook. I invite the representatives to come forth and speak up your opinions.

Bhurigrava (one clan head) - It has been our tradition to give refuge to troubled. Following this tradition will not only increase the labor pool in Taxila but also boost the local economy as the immigrants will purchase goods manufactured here by our artisans.
Furthermore, this gracious approach will generate good-will which will in turn help in building the good relations with these nations in future.

Another Representative - I support providing refuge on humanitarian grounds.

Ripudaman - Stop this talk of tradition and humanity. It is only us who behave on humanitarian grounds and in turn it is only us who are crushed. If we agree what Bhurigrava says, then understand that you will be seeing division and downfall of Taxila quite soon. You will find these refugees sitting along with you guys demanding for equal rights. The land of those who talk of limitless compassion will bathe in blood flowing freely out of conflicts resulting from differences based on Jaati and Dharma. No humanist will dare to stop their swords, then. They will sit with you in this assembly influencing your decision.

Bhurigravaa - Do not belittle our traditions by your communal bilge, Ripudaman !!!

Ripudaman - Face the reality, Bhurigrava. In the questions concerning future of Taxila, there is no place for emotions. Our dharma (way of life) is different, our language is different, our customs are different. There shall be discriminations based on these exact differences, tomorrow. We do not wish to let go our traditions, will these refugees let go theirs? These people will sit with you tomorrow, demanding their so called rights. Your compassionate humanitarian hearts will shy away from using force against them. Can assembly assure me that Gandhaar (today's Khyber-Pakhtoonkhwa province including Kabul, of Indian subcontinent) won't fracture due to these refugees? Can anyone assure me that these refugees will return to their homelands beyond Oxus after threat of Alexander is thwarted? Is this assembly assured that the government of Taxila won't impose new taxes on the citizens to "take care" of these refugees? Can speaker sir assure this assembly that govt won't try to score political brownie points using these refugees?

Demands for explanation grow in assembly...

Speaker - I ask the representatives sitting in this assembly, have they forgotten the example Shiva wherein he consumed poison for good of universe? have the memories of sage Dadhichi and Shibi faded from our collective memories? Are we calling for breaking our own traditions? Remember, only powerful can give refuge.. Are we not powerful? Are we not the descendants of "poison-digesters" (reference to Shiva)? have lost the power to donate our bones for larger cause (reference to Dadhichi and Vajra)?

Ripudaman - Speaker sir, you are getting sentimental. What if, there are Greek spies among the refugees?

Speaker - traitors can be everywhere. even in home (reference to Vibhishana). Why are you, then, getting so paranoid?

Ripudaman (as he walks out) - I shall see, how you humanists save your traditions from swords of Alexander.

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Any "new-way", which will result in mass-migrations and population transfer is way towards suicide which dharma and rashtra cannot afford to let happen again and again. RajeshA ji's solution of brides coming in Punjab and haryana from Pakjab is one thing and partially acceptable, only as long as rest of pests stay in pakjab and only bride comes here. I am all in for piskology etc. as long as consensus for indiscriminate population merger isn't being sought for. A person living in Pindi district, Quetta district, Trichur OR Kasargod district, Sylhet district and Rampur OR Moradabad districts, for example, should get an opportunity to earn a decent income while they all stay in their own respective districts. While I cited these 5 districts as example only, I chose these particular 5 names deliberately. When janta is forced to move out en masse to greener pastures, it is recipe for disaster.

The buffering capacity of Dharma only pushes the impending disaster ahead, giving more time to mend ways and achieve dharmik and just all round development everywhere. When Dharma is mixed with Abrahmic operating system OR communist operating system owing to such mass-migrations, the buffering capacity is too low (in comparison) and we should know that the flash-point is fast approaching, as it happened in 1947..

[sanjeevpunj]

The new way of looking at Pakistan can be found in the mind of Ayman AL Zawahiri, the AQ leader. He has recently appealed to Pakistanis to emulate the Arab Spring, and bring down the Generals of Pakistani Military, accusing them of being hand in hand with US of A. If this article http://www.indianexpress.com/news/alqae ... my/924990/ is an indication,Arab Spring might spring a surprise in our neighbourhood too.

[shiv]

The new way of looking at Pakistan can be found in the mind of Ayman AL Zawahiri, the AQ leader. He has recently appealed to Pakistanis to emulate the Arab Spring, and bring down the Generals of Pakistani Military, accusing them of being hand in hand with US of A. If this article http://www.indianexpress.com/news/alqae ... my/924990/ is an indication,Arab Spring might spring a surprise in our neighbourhood too.

Zawahiri is a dead man because he is right.