Artillery Discussion Thread

sum · Post by **sum** » 03 Mar 2012 21:18

^^ Wasnt the Nalanda OFB factory plan scrapped sometime back?

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 03 Mar 2012 21:50

George Fernandes had proposed this OFB unit in his (then) parliamentary constituency Nalanda and was his pet project.The Con govt had to of course scrap it!!!

Snehashis · Post by **Snehashis** » 03 Mar 2012 22:01

Nalanda is in limbo. It is not scrapped but surely things are not moving its way. Initial plan was to collaborate with Somchem/Naschem were scrapped after the Denel fiasco. IMI was then selected to provide the machinery / tooling and technology to set up the factory.

Snehashis · Post by **Snehashis** » 03 Mar 2012 22:26

Setting up of ordnance factory in Nalanda has not been stopped

The work of setting up of ordnance factory in Nalanda in Bihar has not been stopped. There are mainly four plants i.e. Nitro Cellulose (NC), Nitro Glycerine (NG), Sulphuric Acid Concentration (SAC)/Nitric Acid Concentration (NAC) and Bi-Modular Charge System (BMCS) planned to be set up at Ordnance Factory Nalanda, Bihar for manufacture of BMCS. While the work of setting up of NC, NG, SAC/NAC plants is going on as per schedule, the work of setting up BMCS plant could not commence till date.

Work was started after sanction of the project in November 2001. The project was kept in abeyance from June 2005 to June 2006. In the meantime Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) submitted a proposal for revision of project cost due to escalation and cost overrun. Accordingly, the revision of project cost was sanctioned in February 2009 with the completion period of 30 months i.e. by 5th August 2011.

No ancillary company is involved. OFB has entered into contracts with the main companies who are completing the supply of NC, NG, SAC/NAC Plants as per schedule. However, the work of BMCS Plant contracted with M/s IMI Israel has not commenced. As reported by CB.I, M/s IMI Israel was alleged to be involved in paying illegal gratification to Shri Sudipta Ghosh, former DGOF & Chairman, OFB. The case is under investigation by CBI.

The plants - NC, NG, SAC/NAC and BMCS are sequential and the output of first three plants will be utilized as input for BMCS Plant for production of BMCS. Hence, the final product BMCS can only be supplied after all the plants are commissioned and put in production.

In consultation with CVC and Ministry of Law and Justice, OFB has issued show-cause notice to M/s IMI Israel. The reply of M/s IMI has been examined and further necessary action will be contemplated/taken in consultation with Ministry of Law and Justice.

There is no such report of some foreign elements reportedly creating problems in the factory resulting in undue delay in its production system.

This information was given by Minister of State for Defence Shri MM Pallam Raju in a written reply to Shri Kaushalendra Kumar and others in Lok Sabha today.

Source: PIB

Catch the drama in CAG report.

Snehashis · Post by **Snehashis** » 03 Mar 2012 22:33

Israel Military Industries to face action soon: Antony

The Indian government will soon decide on penal action against an Israeli defense company blacklisted in connection with a graft case filed by the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) against a former Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) chief, the Indian Upper House of Parliament, the Rajya Sabha was informed Wednesday.

The CBI filed the case against Sudipto Ghosh, former director general of OFB, in May 2009.

Defense Minister Arackaparambil Kurian Antony, in a written reply, said his ministry has issued show cause notices to Israel Military Industries (IMI) last year, following which the company requested supporting documents on the charges against it, which were provided to it.

“A decision regarding the penal action will be taken after examining the reply of IMI and in consultation with the ministry of law and justice and the Central Vigilance Commission,” Antony said.

After examining the First Information Report (FIR) lodged by the CBI against Ghosh, the defense ministry, through an order May 28, 2009, decided to put on hold all contracts with companies named by the investigating agency in the graft case.

IMI, one of the six companies under the CBI scanner, was to set up ordnance factories near Nalanda in Bihar for manufacturing bi-modular charges for the Bofors artillery guns of the army under a INR 12 billion (about USD 260 million) contract.

Significantly, the Indian Army issued a Request For Information for Bi-Modular Charge Systems for 155 mm howitzers last month.

The ministry’s order stopping implementation of the contract was contested by the defense firms in the Delhi High Court, which set it aside and directed the ministry that penal action against the companies could be taken only after following principles of natural justice.

Accordingly, the ministry issued show cause notices to all the companies on the basis of the CBI’s FIR. The firms denied the allegations and sought specific evidence based on which penal action was proposed against them.

The CBI filed a charge sheet in the case against Ghosh in June 2010 and also recommended the blacklisting of IMI, along with five other companies of both Indian and foreign origin, for being involved in corruption. Following the charge sheet, fresh notices were issued to IMI, Antony added.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 04 Mar 2012 01:40

tsarkar wrote:Correct. For 39 cal, I believe ToT was done, but 39 cal is obsolete for Towed & SPH.

Even obsolete artillery pieces are better than none at all.

IMHO, if the OFB can quickly produce the duplicates of Bofors 155mm 39 cal that we already have, it will be a welcome addition to Indian Army's inventory.

keshavchandra · Post by **keshavchandra** » 05 Mar 2012 22:01

India on Monday banned six defence firms, including four foreign companies, from doing any business in the country for 10 years beginning 2012, following the chargesheeting of a former Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) chief in a graft case.(Do we have working prison jail at kalapani or OFB may use these honey-licker for target practice )

The companies banned are Singapore Technologies,Israeli Military Industries, German Rheinmetall Air Defence, Russia Corporation Defence and two Indian firms, defence ministry spokesman Sitanshu Kar told reporters in New Delhi.

The ban will be effective for 10 years beginning 2012, he added.The Indian firms are TS Kishan and Company Private Limited and RK Machine Tools, they added.

The action follows the Central Bureau of Investigation chargesheet against former OFB chief Sudipto Ghosh, and the probe agency’s recommendation for blacklisting the six firms.

The firms were issued a show cause notice and after perusing their replies, the government decided to “debar” them, Kar added.

India bans six defence firms for 10 years

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 06 Mar 2012 00:09

Kakkaji wrote:
tsarkar wrote:Correct. For 39 cal, I believe ToT was done, but 39 cal is obsolete for Towed & SPH.
Even obsolete artillery pieces are better than none at all.

IMHO, if the OFB can quickly produce the duplicates of Bofors 155mm 39 cal that we already have, it will be a welcome addition to Indian Army's inventory.

M777 is also 39 cal.

If the light weight + 30 km is the target then I guess something like G7 (105mm probably 52 cal) can be just as good. And OFB should be able to do it.

After this Excalibur Block 1a remains the only difference, which could be too costly for a sanger/bunker.

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 06 Mar 2012 00:22

^^ It cannot be simplified to light weight +30 km issue. Ask an infantry man what will he chose if he had an option to pick the calibre of the gun firing at him... There is absolutely no comparison between a 155mm shell and a 105mm shel

The sheer volume of explosive is huge to make it a BIG BIG difference. We need 155mm any day

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 06 Mar 2012 06:10

keshavchandra wrote: The companies banned are Singapore Technologies,Israeli Military Industries, German Rheinmetall Air Defence, Russia Corporation Defence and two Indian firms, defence ministry spokesman Sitanshu Kar told reporters in New Delhi.

The ban will be effective for 10 years beginning 2012, he added.
India bans six defence firms for 10 years

Just for fun, can we list the names of artillery manufaturers worldwide that have not been banned/ blacklisted/ charged?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 06 Mar 2012 07:42

Only thing I can think of is the MOD is forcing Army to go the OFB route.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 06 Mar 2012 11:47

Aditya_V wrote:Only thing I can think of is the MOD is forcing Army to go the OFB route.

Or the americans.

srai · Post by **srai** » 06 Mar 2012 11:48

^^^

Even local vendors of OFB are being blacklisted. IA ... No arty for you.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 06 Mar 2012 12:46

srai wrote:^^^

Even local vendors of OFB are being blacklisted. IA ... No arty for you.

\So only FMS mode is open then.

member_20617 · Post by **member_20617** » 06 Mar 2012 14:47

srai wrote:^^^

Even local vendors of OFB are being blacklisted. IA ... No arty for you.

Not having arty is an art by doing aarti for Sonia!

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 06 Mar 2012 15:51

X-post from the Small arms thread:

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 8#p1252418

So there goes our hopes of achieving Multiple Round Simultaneous Impact (MRSI) with existing guns. We will have to make do with ToT only with the few guns that we have... We want to shoot ourselves in the foot as always

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 06 Mar 2012 16:18

Kakkaji wrote:
keshavchandra wrote: The companies banned are Singapore Technologies,Israeli Military Industries, German Rheinmetall Air Defence, Russia Corporation Defence and two Indian firms, defence ministry spokesman Sitanshu Kar told reporters in New Delhi.

The ban will be effective for 10 years beginning 2012, he added.
India bans six defence firms for 10 years
Just for fun, can we list the names of artillery manufaturers worldwide that have not been banned/ blacklisted/ charged?

RUSSIA

koti · Post by **koti** » 06 Mar 2012 16:19

Kakkaji wrote:Just for fun, can we list the names of artillery manufaturers worldwide that have not been banned/ blacklisted/ charged?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRF1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panter_Howitzer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cañón_155_mm._L_45_CALA_30
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GC-45_howitzer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAESAR_sel ... d_howitzer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmaria_(artillery)

Few of the options ... should be in the pipeline though...

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 06 Mar 2012 16:21

Kakkaji wrote:
keshavchandra wrote: The companies banned are Singapore Technologies,Israeli Military Industries, German Rheinmetall Air Defence, Russia Corporation Defence and two Indian firms, defence ministry spokesman Sitanshu Kar told reporters in New Delhi.

The ban will be effective for 10 years beginning 2012, he added.
India bans six defence firms for 10 years
Just for fun, can we list the names of artillery manufaturers worldwide that have not been banned/ blacklisted/ charged?

FUN ???? Buddy I see no fun.

I think all this is a grand plan to bring the Russians into the scene. NOTHING LESS

I remember many years ago a female tourism minister from WB (could be Renuka Choudhary ?? I am not sure ) made a remark in the Parliament as to why the Russian guns were not considered. The PM of that time MMS / ABV politely told her to handle her own department

K

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 06 Mar 2012 16:27

merlin wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:Only thing I can think of is the MOD is forcing Army to go the OFB route.
Or the americans.

Or the Russians

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 06 Mar 2012 16:37

Kersi D wrote:
I remember many years ago a female tourism minister from WB (could be Renuka Choudhary ?? I am not sure ) made a remark in the Parliament as to why the Russian guns were not considered. The PM of that time MMS / ABV politely told her to handle her own department

K

She wrote a letter to Rakha Mantry and had the Denel contract cancelled, she is from AP.

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 06 Mar 2012 16:39

Kersi D wrote:
Kakkaji wrote: Just for fun, can we list the names of artillery manufaturers worldwide that have not been banned/ blacklisted/ charged?
FUN ???? Buddy I see no fun.

I think all this is a grand plan to bring the Russians into the scene. NOTHING LESS

I remember many years ago a female tourism minister from WB (could be Renuka Choudhary ?? I am not sure ) made a remark in the Parliament as to why the Russian guns were not considered. The PM of that time MMS / ABV politely told her to handle her own department

K

Renuka Choudary, MP from Khamman, Andhra Pradesh and Tourism Minister in UPA-1, wrote to the MoD alleging irregularities in the Denel deal for Bhim guns and the Anti-material rifle (14.5mm caliber) based on info from some serving officers. The rest is history... We don't have SPH and we hardly have adeqaute AMR

koti · Post by **koti** » 06 Mar 2012 17:19

Thank you for embarrassing me

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 06 Mar 2012 17:26

^what did I do?

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 06 Mar 2012 17:34

Marut wrote:
Kersi D wrote: Just for fun, can we list the names of artillery manufaturers worldwide that have not been banned/ blacklisted/ charged?

FUN ???? Buddy I see no fun.

I think all this is a grand plan to bring the Russians into the scene. NOTHING LESS

I remember many years ago a female tourism minister from WB (could be Renuka Choudhary ?? I am not sure ) made a remark in the Parliament as to why the Russian guns were not considered. The PM of that time MMS / ABV politely told her to handle her own department

K
Renuka Choudary, MP from Khamman, Andhra Pradesh and Tourism Minister in UPA-1, wrote to the MoD alleging irregularities in the Denel deal for Bhim guns and the Anti-material rifle (14.5mm caliber) based on info from some serving officers. The rest is history... We don't have SPH and we hardly have adeqaute AMR

A country that has produced Jhansi ki Rani also produces a Renuka Choudhary

MERA BHARAT MAHAN

Snehashis · Post by **Snehashis** » 06 Mar 2012 18:56

Does that means that Denel will be removed from blacklist circa 2015 ?

I believe there are still Giat, Patria Vamas and Samsung left to be banned. Perhaps we could take the generous offer by the Chinese to procure the guns from Norinco.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 06 Mar 2012 21:43

Kersi D wrote: A country that has produced Jhansi ki Rani also produces a Renuka Choudhary

MERA BHARAT MAHAN

How about sending Renuka Chaudhary to ChiPak Border next time.

Snehashis · Post by **Snehashis** » 12 Mar 2012 00:33

OFB upgrading Bofors to 45 calibre

Meanwhile, in a small step towards indigenization of Bofors-type artillery guns, the ordnance factory has recently dispatched a couple of upgraded 155mm howitzers to the army. This is the first batch of guns lying with the army that have been upgraded by the ordnance factory.

With the upgradation, the caliber of the guns has been increased to 155x45mm from 155x39mm earlier. This leads to increase in the barrel length, giving the guns a longer range. The 155x 39mm Bofors gun is the howitzer originally purchased by the army. With the upgradation, its range has been enhanced by around 10km, said a source involved in this process.

The ordnance factory has also upgraded the electronics in a couple of 155x39 mm guns sent by the army, said a source in the OFB.

As international procurement was delayed, the army had last year appointed the OFB as designated agency for indigenously making these guns in bulk. The process will be undertaken in stages, including barrel upgradation and followed by other parts. Eventually the gun will be completely made here, said the source.

Meanwhile, the army is also scouting for more howitzers especially of the higher 155x52 caliber in the international market as it needs to replenish the artillery. The OFB had received drawings along with the guns which were sourced from Sweden in 1986. The army has asked it to come up with six prototypes, including two of 155x45 caliber and rest of 155x39 version, but with enhanced capabilities.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Mar 2012 06:45

wish they knew the difference in caliber(diameter in mm) and barrel length(expressed as times the caliber).

Gerald Bull had shown that 45 calibers is the optimum for 155mm as it allows the gases to expand and propel the charge farthest. His design was called the GCT- 155x 45.
Bofors 39 caliber is sub-optimum but good for mountain roads as the loger barrel makes it difficult to tow around the sharp bends.

52 caliber is newest and takes advantage of special shells.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 12 Mar 2012 10:55

Kersi D wrote:
keshavchandra wrote: The companies banned are Singapore Technologies,Israeli Military Industries, German Rheinmetall Air Defence, Russia Corporation Defence [/b]and two Indian firms, defence ministry spokesman Sitanshu Kar told reporters in New Delhi.

The ban will be effective for 10 years beginning 2012, he added.
India bans six defence firms for 10 years
FUN ???? Buddy I see no fun.

I think all this is a grand plan to bring the Russians into the scene. NOTHING LESS

I remember many years ago a female tourism minister from WB (could be Renuka Choudhary ?? I am not sure ) made a remark in the Parliament as to why the Russian guns were not considered. The PM of that time MMS / ABV politely told her to handle her own department

K

But but the Russians have also been given kala muh, only US is left. Perhaps this is a good thing... a FMS route purchase of the guns in double quick time - the US is exceptional at delivering the goodies in time.

rad · Post by **rad** » 12 Mar 2012 12:21

Mad cap Anthony
Anthony has black listed IMI and other companies , does he realize the damage he is doing to the country ? Its a case of acting or trying to project a clean governance. If a 3rd rate OFB official takes a bribe why should the country suffer?. IN the same case why arent
politicians blacklisted for committing a crime.?. Israel is the only country which will help us in times of need and tech. Russia is not he same .Bribery has been institutionalized by successive governments and many more employees are going to take bribes so in the future all defence firms can be black listed .
why dont we make a law that all gov employees in the defence who are caught in frauds will be jailed for life and their assets seized and frozen , after all they are acting against the country.Rather than shooting ourselves, china and pakistan should be laughing their hearts at this stupidity.

Rad

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 12 Mar 2012 15:47

Don't assume that this is done out of ignorance or out of lack of understanding of what doing this will do to capabilities.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 12 Mar 2012 15:56

rad wrote:Mad cap Anthony
Anthony has black listed IMI and other companies , does he realize the damage he is doing to the country ? Its a case of acting or trying to project a clean governance. If a 3rd rate OFB official takes a bribe why should the country suffer?. IN the same case why arent
politicians blacklisted for committing a crime.?. Israel is the only country which will help us in times of need and tech. Russia is not he same .Bribery has been institutionalized by successive governments and many more employees are going to take bribes so in the future all defence firms can be black listed .
why dont we make a law that all gov employees in the defence who are caught in frauds will be jailed for life and their assets seized and frozen , after all they are acting against the country.Rather than shooting ourselves, china and pakistan should be laughing their hearts at this stupidity.

Rad

so what does he do? If they don't ban, he will be accused for selling out to the foreigners and reams will be written on the Jewish Lobby now coming into India via the traitor Christians etc. Hopefully, bribe giving will be made a capital offense in India. IMO, country is suffering because of this more than what you stated. it is good that making an example will deter others.

Will · Post by **Will** » 12 Mar 2012 18:41

But but the Russians have also been given kala muh, only US is left. Perhaps this is a good thing... a FMS route purchase of the guns in double quick time - the US is exceptional at delivering the goodies in time.

Thats been my q all the time.What stops us going through the FMS route instead of this tender rigmarole for each and every purchase? Is the FMS route restricted to uncle sam?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 12 Mar 2012 19:13

so what does he do? If they don't ban,

He fines them and moves on knowing fully well that all sort of shady things happen in arms deal and it involves babus, politicians,ex forces guys etc

K_Reddy · Post by **K_Reddy** » 12 Mar 2012 19:25

Apparently, the blacklist applies only to working with OFB and not other entities. So the Rheinmetall Skyshield AAA deal with TATA can go on according to the Trident-Trishul blog guy. Lets see.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 12 Mar 2012 19:36

Surya wrote:
so what does he do? If they don't ban,

He fines them and moves on knowing fully well that all sort of shady things happen in arms deal and it involves babus, politicians,ex forces guys etc

So, he takes law in his hands and kills everyone involved in Blak ops? I don't think he can take them to jail without proof and with political dharma?

What happened to A Raja in telecom scam? he is walking out and will cut deals. Supreme court ended up making spectrum allocation on a certain date illegal. The players are still there. They will buy spectrum the legal way. UPA coalition dharma will sell them in honest ways (hopefully).

There are plenty of arms companies out there. Blacklisting IMI is a good way to tell folks to deal better.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 12 Mar 2012 19:43

Err what killing are you talking about??

So are you sayign he can blackist them without proof but cannot fine them without it???

oh really - When the next time the balloon goes up - and we need something from IMI urgently??

what will you do??

Stay on your high horse or go begging to them to deliver whats needed

The problem is the people who demand bribes - the companies who offer it are the lesser problem

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 12 Mar 2012 19:46

Surya wrote:Err what killing are you talking about??

So are you sayign he can blackist them without proof but cannot fine them without it???

oh really - When the next time the balloon goes up - and we need something from IMI urgently??

what will you do??

Stay on your high horse

The questions were sent to IMI in 2009 or 2010, why they should not be blacklisted. They couldn't come up with replies. So was the case with other companies too. hence, the law of the land took over. CBI has done a good job out of it.

If IMI is needed urgently, they will not charge high? its business as usual sir.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 12 Mar 2012 19:50

again you have not changed the fundamental problem - its the guys who demand bribes who are the issue.

Take them out - the other side of it will reduce (not go away)

You are only blacklisting companies (and becoming a joke like the arty saga) but doing nothing about the ones who demand kickbacks (forget this lowly official - they are hazaar babus and others who are doing it)