India-EU News & Analysis

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby Gaurav_S » 07 Mar 2012 16:09

Let's see now what happens then. For now these guards are lodged in the jail. Only time will tell how much more pressure we can endure. I wonder what kind of Italian food they will get in Kerala. These guys will probably never ask for more pizzas or pastas IMO.

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby harbans » 07 Mar 2012 16:52

Territory still plays a big part in the law of the sea. States' territorial claims have expanded considerably since the 18th century. Two hundred miles offshore (when I say mile, I mean the nautical mile, which is 6076 feet, or 1.150779 statute miles) is the limit of a State's potential exclusive economic zone. I say potential because States must claim the territory they want within this limit, and not all of them do so. In this zone the State has some exclusive rights to exploration and resources. However, other States' ships have a right of innocent passage through the EEZ, just as Grotius argued.

The next territorial boundary marks the State's potential contiguous zone, which extends 24 miles offshore. Within this zone, a coastal state can stop and inspect vessels and act to punish (or prevent) violations of its laws within its territory or territorial waters. The contiguous zone solves a vexing problem. As Malcolm Evans describes it:

Traditionally, where the territorial sea ends, the high seas began and the laws of the coastal State no longer apply. However, policing maritime zones is no easy matter and, unlike land boundaries, they are simple to cross. It would therefore be easy for vessels to commit offences within the territorial sea but to evade arrest by moving just a little further seaward. The answer is to permit coastal States to arrest vessels outside their territorial seas in connection with offences that either have been committed or which it is suspected are going to be committed within their territorial sea.

In 1999 President Clinton extended the U.S.'s contiguous zone from 12 to 24 miles.

The potential territorial sea extends 12 miles off the coast. Here the State has territorial jurisdiction, but only up to a point--the right of innocent passage still applies. The LOSC says:

1. The criminal jurisdiction of the coastal State should not be exercised on board a foreign ship passing through the territorial sea to arrest any person or to conduct any investigation in connection with any crime committed on board the ship during its passage, save only in the following cases:

(a) if the consequences of the crime extend to the coastal State;

(b) if the crime is of a kind to disturb the peace of the country or the good order of the territorial sea;

(c) if the assistance of the local authorities has been requested by the master of the ship or by a diplomatic agent or consular officer of the flag State; or

(d) if such measures are necessary for the suppression of illicit traffic in narcotic drugs or psychotropic substances.

Because coastal State jurisdiction is limited, even in its territorial waters, the flag State's laws still apply aboard its ships. U.S. courts adjudicate crimes committed aboard ships flying U.S. flags, even if the crime was committed in foreign territorial waters.


http://www.straightdope.com/columns/rea ... of-the-law

Even on the high seas, a foreign flag vessel isn't completely exempt from the jurisdiction of other States--vessels are subject to ''visit'' and arrest under certain circumstances. LOSC also provides a right of hot pursuit. According to Article 111,

The hot pursuit of a foreign ship may be undertaken when the competent authorities of the coastal State have good reason to believe that the ship has violated the laws and regulations of that State. Such pursuit must be commenced when the foreign ship or one of its boats is within the internal waters, the archipelagic waters, the territorial sea or the contiguous zone of the pursuing State, and may only be continued outside the territorial sea or the contiguous zone if the pursuit has not been interrupted.

As a nod to the territorial principle, "The right of hot pursuit ceases as soon as the ship pursued enters the territorial sea of its own State or of a third State." States can also agree to permit another state to arrest vessels flying their flags.


Even if none of these exceptions apply, U.S. courts have held that arrest in violation of international law doesn't necessarily bar prosecution. For example, in United States v. Postal, the defendants were U.S. nationals arrested on board a vessel registered in the Grand Cayman Islands, 16 miles from shore (which at the time was the high seas). The United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit found that though the arrest violated the Convention on the High Seas (1958), the treaty violation didn't impair the court's jurisdiction. The Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit followed suit in 2002. So on the high seas not only are you not beyond the reach of any nation, sometimes you're with the reach of two.


These below define India's contiguous zone as extending to 24 Nm..

5. (1) The contiguous zone of India (hereinafter referred to as the contiguous zone) is and area beyond and adjacent to the territorial waters and the limit of the contiguous zone is the line every point of which is at a distance of twenty-four nautical miles from the nearest point of the baseline referred to in sub-section (2) of section 3.
(2) Notwithstanding anything contained in sub-section (1), the Central Government may, whenever it considers necessary so to do having regard to International Law and State practice, alter, by notification in the Official Gazette, the limit of the contiguous zone.


http://mea.gov.in/mystart.php?id=500412023

1. So even if the ship is outside Indian territorial waters, it at 22 Nm is inside it's contiguous zone.

2. Even if the Ship is outside Indian contiguous zon (24 Nm), India reserves the right to hot pursuit, till the ship enters another countrie's territorial waters or contiguous zone.

3. Indian courts have to right to jurisdicate as the killings have technically taken place on Indian soil.

I don't see how the Italians have any case even under International law. Remember any fudging of these 3 documents: GPS Log, Official Deck Log book, relevant passage Charts, Passage plan is a violation too. The Captain may be jailed for a longer term than the consequences of an unintentional homicide may incur which then will be an altogether different case.

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby harbans » 07 Mar 2012 17:10

(4) The Central Government may exercise such powers and take such measures in or in relation to the contiguous zone as it may consider necessary with respect to,-
(a) the security of India, and
(b) immigrations sanitation, customs and other fiscal matters.


From the GoI site..and this is applicable since 1976. The US declared it's contiguous zone only in 1976 for example. The Italians are way out in their claims on this..

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby anishns » 07 Mar 2012 19:35

Nothing to do with India......but :-?

Thor Steinar Names New Store after Norwegian Killer

In an apparent deliberate act of provocation, the Thor Steinar clothing brand, popular among German neo-Nazis, has opened a store in the eastern German city of Chemnitz bearing the name of the far-right Norwegian mass murderer responsible for killing dozens of people, including scores of youth, last summer.

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby sampat » 08 Mar 2012 03:34

Right-Wing Italian Group Plans ‘Blitz’ on Indian Restaurants


ROME – A right-wing youth group in Italy said Wednesday it plans a raid on Indian restaurants in Rome Wednesday evening, saying the “nocturnal blitz” was meant as a protest against the detention of two Italian nationals in southern India.

“We have decided to symbolically strike some Indian restaurants in the capital tonight,” Gianluigi Limido, head of the Roman chapter of Italian Youth, part of the Destra movement run by Francesco Storace, a long-time militant in Italy’s right-wing political parties.

Police in the southern state of Kerala have jailed two Italian sailors as they investigate the Feb. 15 shooting deaths of two Indian fishermen near an Italian vessel of India’s southwestern coast. The two Italian sailors fired their weapons out of fear the fishermen might be pirates.

Media in Italy and India report disputing versions of the facts as well as whether the location of the Italian ship may have been in international waters, meaning India may not have proper jurisdiction in the case.

Rome’s left-wing daily La Repubblica, on Wednesday quoted Italy’s foreign minister as calling the jailing of the two Italian nationals “illegitimate” and saying it set a “dangerous precedent for Italian missions abroad.”

Mr. Limido said his followers had closed off 10 Indian restaurants in Rome and taped posters calling for a boycott of Indian goods and the “immediate liberation” of the two sailors who fired the weapons.

He called the behavior of the Indian government “unjustifiable” and criticized Italy’s government as well for being “too bland” in its approach to the matter.


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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby Prem » 08 Mar 2012 06:25

EU moves to help free Italian sailors held in India

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - The European Union said on Wednesday it was intervening to seek a resolution to the dispute between Italy and India after two Italian marines were detained for allegedly shooting dead two Indian fishermen they believed to be pirates.Italian Prime Minister Mario Monti, in a phone call to Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on Wednesday, said it is still not clear who actually shot the fishermen, and repeated that India had no jurisdiction over the matter because it occurred in international waters."Following the request of Italy, we are now undertaking contacts that are aimed at contributing to finding a satisfactory solution for this case as soon as possible," a spokesman for EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton said.Any Indian position that is not fully in line with international law risks creating a dangerous precedent regarding international peace missions and the fight against piracy," Monti told Singh in the phone call, according to a statement from the Italian premier's office.Singh shared Monti's concern about the dispute and pledged to give "full attention" to the request to have the marines moved out of a prison and to a place "adequate for their military status," the statement added

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby Prem » 08 Mar 2012 06:29

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archiv ... commission
Racist European Commission?
European society and culture can chill the barbarians? The European economy will chill the competition emerging in Brazil, China, and India? Let's not forget to mention the strangeness of chilling the barbarians from India and China with Buddhism. What can this part of the ad mean? Europe not only has the best culture but selects and absorbs the best that other cultures have to offer? And then there's the moment you think she is going to pull an Indiana Jones on these showy barbarians. All of this is very weird, very racist.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9E2B_yI8 ... dded#t=32s
[youtube]9E2B_yI8jrI&feature=player_embedded#t=32s[/youtube]

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby uddu » 08 Mar 2012 07:08

This ad says the more we are the stronger we are
That means if the EU can get together, they can win over the the Brown man (Indosphere), the Black man (Africa/Brazil) and the Yellow man (China, Japan, ASEAN) etc.
The ad meant if we get together, we don't have to go to war with them. They will just disappear, because we'll be so huge.
Now who will be huge and who will be small need to be seen. If they get together, they are going to be huge for the time being. A grouping of the Brown+Yellow+Black becomes necessary under such a situation for the immediate future.

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby Hari Seldon » 08 Mar 2012 10:47

Philip wrote:First India,then Russia and now Sri Lanka too! Today's media reports have an account of yet another "kidnapping" by a Norwegian child care entity ,this time of a Sri Lankan child.What's with these Norwegian cradle-snatchers?


Nice way to limit immigration, no? Make it really unattractive to come to norway. No?

BTW, let the norwegians try to do this on a Pakistani family and see. The whole mohalla will close ranks and not let the cradle snatchers escape alive were they to try something like this. Norse ch00tzpah will drain-dive faster than downhill skis. All said and done the kinda paranoia driven unity the paks have does keep inhuman outsiders at bay. Inhuman insiders are a different story altogether, though...

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby harbans » 08 Mar 2012 11:17

That ad taken out by EU, i think we deserve it. I have repeatedly asserted that our future lies in uniting under a Dharmic banner. But we just fail to internalize and institutionalize that. The ad clearly is appropriating our own and 'civilizing' us barbarians by using the uniting peace and calm that Dharma brings about. The insensitive part is not the racist thing, it's appropriation of our symbols. Europe knows deep inside they have been civilized by Dharmic memes from our past that got about the enlightenment. Today China, Europe want to appropriate Dharma in their limited way of understanding whilst depicting us as barbarians. But then we are as we move away from the Dharmic meme to no meme at all as reflected in our present governance.

Look at the case of the Italian soldiers, i am certain at some point of time we will buckle because it is the 'Chanakyan' thing to do as all of EU will be against us. I have repeatedly pointed here why India even under International law is correct in trying the Italians. These points despite multiple articles on this have never made it into one mainstream media publication. Today 'Chanakya Niti' has become the fundamental rallying base point. The root Dharma has been given the short stick.

We have abandoned Dharma, and if we continue to do so, China and EU/ West will appropriate it, which they are directly through the ad and civilizing us. All around we are having signs that the barbarians are appropriating what is ours in a contorted manner..how long will we resist seeing what is so clearly visible.

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby RajeshA » 08 Mar 2012 14:30

harbans wrote:Look at the case of the Italian soldiers, i am certain at some point of time we will buckle because it is the 'Chanakyan' thing to do as all of EU will be against us. I have repeatedly pointed here why India even under International law is correct in trying the Italians. These points despite multiple articles on this have never made it into one mainstream media publication. Today 'Chanakya Niti' has become the fundamental rallying base point. The root Dharma has been given the short stick.

I think there is a misconception of what "Chanakya Niti" would be! It means thinking strategically, and not necessarily making compromises.

If we are right in prosecuting those Italian marines, and EU makes a big fuss about this and Italians start acting like Pakis going around harassing Indian restaurants in Italy, then what is the Chanakyan thing to do!

All this blackmailing and threatening by EU is going to lead Indians to see themselves victimized and abused. They would coalesce together. They would come together. So basically EU is working here to instill a higher level of unity among Indians.

The case reminds me a little of the Raymond Davis case in Pakistan. In the end, Pakistan had to let him go. India cannot do the same! We let this case become more politicized. We let the EU harangue us even more. And then we put away those Italians away for good. We make no compromises.

The more publicized this case gets, the prouder the Indian would be that we acted according to our law! Sure there would protests from EU. WE start calling them uncivilized. WE start calling them barbaric for the killings. WE start calling them barbaric for not respecting the law.

The Chanakyan thing to do is to proceed with the case in Indian courts and to punish the Italian marines accordingly!

Where do we get the Chanakyan reward? We get it in the form of raising our domestic pride and unity!

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby Lalmohan » 08 Mar 2012 14:34

italy is playing the 'white is right' card at the moment, india needs to enforce the law

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby harbans » 08 Mar 2012 14:53

Rajesh Ji, there is no need for anything Chanakyan regards the Italians. There is international law. It's clear that the Right to Innocent passage for the Italians finished when they fired and killed INdian fishermen within India's contiguous zone. India under international law even reserves the right to hot pursuit in such circumstances. I have mentioned all those in the links a few posts above. So we harp on the Truth nothing else. And if the investigations by chance do show the Italians innocent, we free them with a big hearty apology and compensate them. But let us stick to the simplest Dharmic strain here which is what will get us respect and let us focus clearly on the matter: Truth. And the Truth is even under International law India is permitted to try them. Lets stick to that and forget Chanakya for this.

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby RajeshA » 08 Mar 2012 15:29

harbans ji,

I am in favor of acting according to the Truth. But you wanted to make a claim that that would be opposite to acting Chanakyan. I for one see no conflict between the two, but you seem to be making that case! So I responded!

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby harbans » 08 Mar 2012 15:39

Rajesh Ji, i say this because a lot of people interpret Chanakya niti = 'Cunning". And not necessarily strategy. Many interpret it as obfuscation and deceit being OK towards Gain. With those interpretations (cunning, obfuscation, deciet) being prevalent, the danger becomes in losing track of core Dharma. More often than not those that employ Chanakya Niti end up using these techniques not for guarding Dharma but for material gains, warding off tough decisions that ensue as a result of pursuing turth etc. Political and Strategic decisions when looked through Chanakyan lenses gradually begin to give the stick to Dharmic principles. Exceptions to the rule may exist, but the rule should be clear to one and all. The exceptions must never make the rule. The latter is happening with those that interpret Chanakya. So i recommend get back to the basics to the rule.

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby Rahul M » 08 Mar 2012 17:43

harbans ji, sorry to say you have grossly misinterpreted what chanakya niti is. in a nutshell, it is the upholding of dharma by any means necessary.. needless those that you accuse of following chanakya-niti do not think they are nor are they aware of it.

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby Altair » 08 Mar 2012 17:53

How would have Italy reacted if the situation was reversed?
I guess we would had to struggle for even consular access.
Justice must be served.

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby ManjaM » 08 Mar 2012 18:12

http://news.yahoo.com/eu-moves-help-fre ... 36427.html

From this link that was posted earlier ....

At the prison, Italy's envoy Staffan de Mistura, stood between the warden and the two sailors, refusing to let them be jailed among the general population, Corriere della Sera newspaper said.

Instead they have been housed in a white, one-room building in the prison compound, rather than a cell, and they are brought meals prepared by an Italian navy cook, including pizza and pasta, the newspaper said.


we are being too sensitive. Housing 2 accused separately due to a risk to their lives is one thing, allowing the envoy to interfere and physically obstruct is totally another level.

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby harbans » 08 Mar 2012 18:16

Kshamayaa dayayaa premnaa soonritenaarjavena cha
Vasheekuryaajjagatsarvam vinayena cha sevayaa

One can bring the whole world under one’s influence (power) by such sterling qualities as patience (or forgiveness), kindness, love, truth, straightforwardness, humility and service


Rahul Ji, no i understand. What the common place perception is about Chanakya-ness is very often on BRF understood to be some clever plot that will somehow achieve a strategic goal. The above Sloka is from Chanakya.

If the above is right, what is the need for untruth, hate, un-straightforwardness, pride..it flies on the face of strategic victory. One cannot believe in the unscrupulous and the above at the same time. Chanakya wanted revenge on the Nanda King. The part about using deceit, cunning was not about preserving Dharma, but about gaining and maintaining political power.

Anyways one can continue thinking cunning and deceit will protect Dharma..Dharma itself protects Dharma.

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby vishvak » 08 Mar 2012 18:24

harbans wrote:
Kshamayaa dayayaa premnaa soonritenaarjavena cha
Vasheekuryaajjagatsarvam vinayena cha sevayaa

One can bring the whole world under one’s influence (power) by such sterling qualities as patience (or forgiveness), kindness, love, truth, straightforwardness, humility and service


Rahul Ji, no i understand. What the common place perception is about Chanakya-ness is very often on BRF understood to be some clever plot that will somehow achieve a strategic goal. The above Sloka is from Chanakya.

If the above is right, what is the need for untruth, hate, un-straightforwardness, pride..it flies on the face of strategic victory. One cannot believe in the unscrupulous and the above at the same time. Chanakya wanted revenge on the Nanda King. The part about using deceit, cunning was not about preserving Dharma, but about gaining and maintaining political power.

Anyways one can continue thinking cunning and deceit will protect Dharma..Dharma itself protects Dharma.

My 2 paise. Cunning, deceit are not so for those who are anti-Dharmic. Dharmic people can't be judged by anti-Dharmics who say "Stop in the name of Dharma!"

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby harbans » 08 Mar 2012 18:44

Cunning, deceit are not so for those who are anti-Dharmic. Dharmic people can't be judged by anti-Dharmics who say "Stop in the name of Dharma!"


What we face is those taking no action claim there is subtle deciet, cleverness in not taking a stand, even verbal against an adharmic bully like China when it does ridiculous things and makes stupid claims. Wait, watch..don't put your head above the parapet. Which way the wind blows..sway that ways for gain. This is the motto that has driven top leaders into critical decision making.

Dharma should motivate people to take a stand. If Aksai Chin is ours we must keep it disputed at the minimum. If we consider fellow Dharmics are being persecuted in Tibet, the first thing we should never on principal have agreed to is endorse Chinese aggression. Distance from Dharma leads to inaction. Proximity to it, leads to clear headedness in decision making. Pakistan has been far more deceptive and cunning compared to India which is infinitely less deceptive and cunning in it's dealings..and Pak has made spectacular gains too. But do you think it is winning? Where is Pakistan now compared to India. Cunning and deceit will get you to a point..not the victory.

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby chackojoseph » 08 Mar 2012 18:45


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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby krithivas » 08 Mar 2012 20:07


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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby Altair » 08 Mar 2012 20:22



An Anti-Italy sentiment in India spread like wild fire will be detrimental to Sonia Maino.

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby Hitesh » 08 Mar 2012 20:24

If that happens,

then India should move for a ban on Italian exports to India until Italy feels the pain of it. Fvck the Italians and the EU minister for interfering with Indian laws. If it happened in the waters off US, they wouldn't dare to make a peep. Because we are brown, they think they can lord over us.

From now on, we should heavily tax any contributions made to the Roman Catholic Church and declare it to be taxable income and revoke the ambassadorship of the Church. Now, I am rooting for Italy to go into the gutters.

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby Altair » 08 Mar 2012 20:29

I would provoke them by providing Indian style toilets and no paper rather than Western style with toilet paper. We can always cite maintenance issues and non availability of toilet paper.
Lets see how they react.

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby harbans » 08 Mar 2012 20:32

Italy is also part of the Eurofighter typhoon consortium. Good we didn't go for that. Any other defense links with Italy or any country that consorts with it, should be given a good look into. The arrogant way the Italians have behaved does not augur well for relations. But it's good they expose their arrogance. Any defense dealings with Italy must be mellowed down from now on. Too arrogant for close defense dealings.

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby ManjaM » 08 Mar 2012 20:59

chackojoseph wrote:The Marines to be taken out of the jail Italian PM preaches caution to Indian PM over arrested Italian marines


And Something to chew upon Partial or total collapse of Euro warns a British Report



Neither of the articles said anything about the accused being taken out of the prison. Any links please?

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby Agnimitra » 08 Mar 2012 21:10

ManjaM wrote:Neither of the articles said anything about the accused being taken out of the prison. Any links please?

MKB blogs about this case:
The Italian Marines resisted for 8 hours before they would be moved into the cell in Poojappura prison in Thiruvananthapuram to await trial for the killing of 2 Indian fishermen on February 15. The jail wardens were unsure about their locus standii to exercise authority in such a tricky case fraught with booby traps and they took the easy way out — seek instructions from above. A bureaucratic chain appeared in no time leading to the highest level of state power in Kerala. The matter finally was referred for instructions all the way to chief minister Oommen Chandy himself.

Finally, at 3 am the Marines obliged to take up residence in the VIP cell, whose previous occupant, ironically, happened to be a former Kerala minister R. Balakrishna Pillai belonging to the ruling alliance, who was convicted for an year’s imprisonment for public corruption.
Chandy pardoned Pillai before the prison term was completed. Recently he also released PiIlai’s memoirs. Whether there is going to be similar grace shown to the Italian Marines once the Piravom bypoll on March 17 is over and done with, will be the big qustion.

At any rate, the Italian deputy foreign minister Staffan De Mistura apparently thinks so, and he is vowing to stay put in this lovely town hugging the Kovalam beach resort until the denouement of the Marines affair. He is personally looking into the comforts of the Marines and giving interviews to Italian TV channels.

There are over 3 dozen foreigners imprisoned in Kerala jails (mostly Pakistanis and Sri Lankans) for crimes less severe than murder — overstay without visa, drug-related crimes, etc. But they are ‘dead souls’. It’s truly amazing — to what length Western countries go to ensure the welfare of their citizens.

Italy is passing through an economic crisis and Italians are a proud lot. There is sensitivity in Italy that ‘rising India’ is trashing ‘weak Italy’.

The fact that the Italian FM summoned the Indian ambassador yesterday and made a demarche about Poojappura shows how far things have deteriorated at the diplomatic level. The lingering question is whether this entire affair couldn’t have been handled differently by Delhi.
Like Kudankulam, National Counter-Terrorism Centre, water accord with Bangladesh, Mullaperiyar — this affair too becomes a living monument to the dysfunctional government in New Delhi.

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby chackojoseph » 08 Mar 2012 22:06

ManjaM wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:The Marines to be taken out of the jail Italian PM preaches caution to Indian PM over arrested Italian marines
Neither of the articles said anything about the accused being taken out of the prison. Any links please?


Read what Manmohan said last. The marines will be shifted to another place to suit their status.

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby Rahul M » 08 Mar 2012 22:09

harbans ji, my reply is here viewtopic.php?p=1253652#p1253652

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby Vipul » 08 Mar 2012 22:29

chackojoseph wrote:

Read what Manmohan said last. The marines will be shifted to another place to suit their status.


What can Manmohan do, he thinks he has gained everything so far by being ordered and remote controled by an Italian.May be he will gain some more this time too by listening to more Italians!!!!

Aadat se majboor and all that......

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby ManjaM » 08 Mar 2012 22:32

chackojoseph wrote:....
Read what Manmohan said last. The marines will be shifted to another place to suit their status.


Odd. I wonder how MMS can promise that when the matter is in the courts and also since the court has ordered the accused moved into a prison.
Also, some other news articles talked about pressure on the Italian govt. to take a sterner line. I am unclear on what these sterner measures can be. Exactly how does Italy be stern in this matter when the accused area already in indian custody. Maybe they mean they will throw tantrums in the media.
Frankly, I am surprised that the Italian Govt has gone so far and allowed diplomatic relations to breakdown to this extent. Seems quite immature and inexperienced.

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby Sanjay » 09 Mar 2012 02:40

Legally, the Indian Federal Government should not say anything. Anything it says or does could either be perceived as being soft on the Italians or pre-judging them (and thus a ground of appeal).

Leave this to the Kerala Courts. The VDR is a bit of a red herring evidentially as it could have helped the Italian defence as it showed the totality of the incident - misapprehension of the threat and reaction. That could have been very useful to the defence in a situation such as this. Conversely, it could have also showed malice aforethought.

The clincher to me will be the ballistic tests. If it can be shown that the guns killed the fishermen, then the whole argument comes down to circumstances.

At present, however we have them and despite the pleas and bleatings of the Italians we have the marines and the guns. The result is now in the hands of the Kerala police, prosecutors and Court. If they botch things...

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby paramu » 09 Mar 2012 06:31

Did anyone ask the Italians how they would have reacted if some merchant ship killed couple of Italians off their coast?

Looks like the point of discussion in the media is moved from justice for victims's family to freedom for murderers.

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby Lisa » 09 Mar 2012 14:49

Compare and contrast reaction to the death of an italian.

Nigeria deaths: Italian anger at UK over rescue bid

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17308416

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby rgosain » 09 Mar 2012 15:31

If India fails to assert it's sovereignty and jurisdiction in this matter, despite the pressure brought to bear on MMS, then it gives it credence to the lies peddled by the Italians that the Indian coastline and waters are awash with pirates, and will increase maritime insurance costs for operators, both local and foreign who operate in Indian waters. These costs far outweigh any perceived diplomatic benefits that might be gained from succumbing to EU pressure, but I remain to be convinced.

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby RajeshA » 09 Mar 2012 16:03

Here some suggestions on how to play this game with the Italians:

a) At the moment, the present Government of Italy is one of Independents - the Prime Minister Mario Monti is an Independent, the Foreign Minister Giulio Maria Terzi di Sant'Agata is an Independent, the Defense Minister Giampaolo di Paola is an Independent.

We see a right-wing activist group planning a nocturnal blitz against Indian restaurants. It is going to hurt Indian restaurants. Obviously the right-wing activists are exploiting the current narrative in Italian media about the details of the incident where the Italian marines gunned down Indian fisherman.

One could think, that there may be political forces in Italy which wish to use this issue in order to score political points and increase their appeal in Italy before the next general elections in April 2013. After all politics is local!

India wants to get the cooperation of the Italian Government in protecting the lives, property and business of the Indians in Italy. Secondly we want the Italian Government not to push the whole EU into taking up cudgels against the Indians on this matter.

How do we get this cooperation from the current Italian Government?

By telling them that clearly how India is going to play this and if they do not cooperate, Indians would see to it that the current players in the Italian Government all get burnt pretty badly.

The Italian marines would be prosecuted, the case would be splashed in the media from the Indian PoV and Italy is going to be brought into disrepute internationally. The current Italian Government would not be able to save the Italian marines and would look like sissies in front of the Italian public for their incompetence.

And the right-wing political groups would be able to make hay at their expense. If the Italian Government does not cooperate, then we carry out our threat. It they do, then read on ...

b) Anyway regardless of how the Italian Govt. reacts, India would have to go on a media and a diplomatic offensive here. We need to get it out into the Italian media what really happened and the Indian PoV on this. We should be willing to buy Italian journalists, American journalists, and others to put our view across. Use the left-wing Italian newspapers like "La Repubblica", etc. to get the message across.

Make some documentaries from Indian PoV, or get documentaries made by Italians about the incident which includes the Indian PoV as well, but which look neutral. Get those documentaries shown on Italian TV.

Put out the images of the Indian families of those who lost their bread-winners, their fathers, their husbands, their sons in this act of barbarism, out into the media, on the TV, including in any documentary on this shown in Italy.

We also put across how far India has developed and how much Italy would need to do business with India in the future!

c) Find out the names of all Media Groups, politicians, businessmen, etc. who are active in this anti-India campaign. Ensure that their business interests can be targeted properly, and their balls are squeezed really hard. If we don't have leverage, then we find someone who has economic leverage on those Italians and get him to squeeze their balls properly!

d) Despite any "assurances" to the Italian Govt. we carry out the criminal proceedings in Indian courts as they should be. We keep the media attention on this. There should be only one sjudgment that the courts should pass on those Italians - Guilty! And the sentence should be capital punishment for those Italians - death by hanging!

e) Then we negotiate. Then we get the Italians on their knees. When the Italians start pleading for the lives of their marines, then we tell them what they will have to do!
  1. First of all, the Italian Govt. is going to have to pay a heavy compensation to the families of the dead fishermen - a million Euros or above to each family.
  2. Secondly, the Italians are going to pay compensation to all the owners of the Indian Restaurants, which were attacked in Italy.
  3. The local politicians would have to come forward and apologize to the owners of various Indian restaurants and stand shoulder to shoulder with them. They would have to criticize all those who indulged in this "nocturnal blitz" against them.
If the Italians do all that, then the sentence would be commuted to life-long imprisonment in India. If the Italians play nice, perhaps after 10 years we could allow the Italians to serve the rest of their sentence in Italy.

Without a death sentence for the Italians in hand, GoI would not be able to get much cooperation from the Italians! So GoI better play this right, and they should not play some weak-kneed game in their usual way!

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby Sanjay » 09 Mar 2012 17:29

That is good advice.

I reiterate that right now, the legal cards are held by us. Even the jurisdiction point is being heard by the Kerala Court. If they do their jobs properly, no problems should arise despite the Italian bray-fest.

The less the Indian Federal Government does at this stage, the better.

One of my former Prime Minister's had a comment "let the donkey bray" for situations like this.

The question remains, will the Kerala police deliver a strong case ?

Sachin, your views welcome as you know them better than any of us.

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby Sachin » 09 Mar 2012 22:10

ManjaM wrote:Housing 2 accused separately due to a risk to their lives is one thing, allowing the envoy to interfere and physically obstruct is totally another level.
\
This was reported in the vernacular media. The police and the jail authorities did not budge. The stand off ended at 2AM or some thing like that. The Italians were clearly told that if they did not get into the cell, they would be forced inside and locked up. Some news papers even stated that a "show of strength" was arranged for (the prison wardens all lined up to use force if required).

I wonder how MMS can promise that when the matter is in the courts and also since the court has ordered the accused moved into a prison.

There are provisions in the law to make any building a prison on a temporary basis. In the recent case again Balakrishna Pillai an ex-minister*, one of his co accused was an ex-govt. official who is now aged and pretty much a living vegetable. The court ordered that even this chap would undergo imprisonment, but said that considering his plight his home can be treated as the prison and the sentence be carried out.

Sanjay wrote:The clincher to me will be the ballistic tests. If it can be shown that the guns killed the fishermen, then the whole argument comes down to circumstances.

We really need to see if this can be proved. Yes a few rifles have been seized. But the rifles were in the Italian ship for quite some time. There were procedural delays in raiding the ship and seizing the weapons. For all you know, the actual rifle may be lying in the ocean bed by now.

But the media has also reported that weapons in a ship is always accounted for. So if some mischief like throwing away the rifle into the sea is done, the captain and the crew would have to face the music when they return to their mother port. But considering the stand taken by Italy, I really doubt if stern action would be taken here.

The question remains, will the Kerala police deliver a strong case ?
Sachin, your views welcome as you know them better than any of us.

So far what I could understand Kerala Police have not faltered. There were delays, but in cases like these (with international ramifications) the police did ensure that the processes were followed. Even the media was baying for the blood of the Italians. The police took the brunt and followed the procedure. Even now, they have not made any statements just for media sensationalism. Heck, when the ship was searched they did not even let the media stand any where near by.

But gathering of evidence, proving that the shots which killed the fishermen came from a specific rifle and the fact that the rifle was from the armoury of the ship, AND that these two sailors were in posession of the rifles does have some challenges. Today the weapons would be tested by ballistics experts.

* The cell which held Balakrishna Pillai is now holding the Italians as well. Pillai had a TV and an air cooler, Italians dont have that.


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