India-US Strategic News and Discussion

rgsrini · Post by **rgsrini** » 16 Mar 2012 23:36

I know the family very well, even though it has been several years since I have visited them. I can tell you, this is no hate crime. It is a normal Tamilian family with no agenda in life. This family would have never discussed about "being gay" or even about sex to Dharun, like a typical Indian family.

This case proves how screwed up the US justice system actually is. It is as bad as Islamic justice. Only thing is that they spend a lot of time inside the court room and talk a lot, but the judgement they pronounce, atleast in this case, is no justice. The prosecutor portrayed as if this little 18 year old innocent kid is out to commit hate crimes against gays. Dharun was fresh into college and he had no choice in selecting his room mate. The gay kid Clementi started to have sex in college with an older kid, within 3 weeks of going there. Who does that?

Dharun has to move out of his room to allow Clementi to have sex. Shows Clementi's priority and how screwed up he actually was. I am 100% convinced that justice has not been served in this case. I hope he doesn't end up in jail for 10 years. He is just a goofy little kid who has no clue about life and responsibilities yet. This was the first time he stepped out of the protected family environment, and got caught in this unfortunate situation.

nawabs · Post by **nawabs** » 16 Mar 2012 23:43

What are the chances of the conviction getting overturned by the higher judiciary?I hope it does.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 16 Mar 2012 23:47

devesh wrote:if it was a white guy who did it, the reaction wouldn't be so strong. you'd have Fox news bombarding 24/7 about how it was just an immature jerk who was playing around. this is a good lesson for Indians though. if they think they will get the same treatment as the locals, this should be a good eye opener. nothing of the sort. I feel sorry for the guy. hopefully, he'll still make something of himself in life.

What is stopping the Indian community in the US from taking it to Fox news and the republican party. They need to punch at their weight atleast.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 16 Mar 2012 23:49

actually, the whole episode provides a lot of lessons for Indians in US. especially parents raising children there. instead of trying to shelter these kids by being defensive against "western" culture, it might be better to tell them the things as they are and also to tell them that their actions have consequences. the parents should tell the kids that they understand that they want to mingle and be goofy at times, but this goofiness has to have limits, b/c the local kids have a whole support infrastructure behind them, which the "Hindu" doesn't.

if it was a white guy, the defense lawyers would have brought in the Padre from their church to tell the jury how the kid is a "good Christian". this kind of character witnesses have a lot of influence on jury decisions. the white Christians have this to support them. the Hindus don't. if they bring some priest or "religious adviser" to court, their testimony has no value, coming from a "pagan", "third world mystic", who involves in "fire rituals". this is the difference between a White Christian and a Dark Hindu. the White Christian can be a "good Christian". the Dark Hindu gets deported.

praksam · Post by **praksam** » 16 Mar 2012 23:51

Jarita wrote:
devesh wrote:if it was a white guy who did it, the reaction wouldn't be so strong. you'd have Fox news bombarding 24/7 about how it was just an immature jerk who was playing around. this is a good lesson for Indians though. if they think they will get the same treatment as the locals, this should be a good eye opener. nothing of the sort. I feel sorry for the guy. hopefully, he'll still make something of himself in life.

What is stopping the Indian community in the US from taking it to Fox news and the republican party. They need to punch at their weight atleast.

But there are far too many chu$i%as like this in the Indian Community

Tweets

edit:

Bobby Jindal

@Bobby*Jindal*2016

My birthname is Ro*bert Jin*dal. People always confuse me with the Governor. Unlike him, I don't believe in Jesus and I ****** love abortion.

Bobby Jindal ‏@Bobby*Jindal*2016Reply
Retweet

Favorite
· Open

Yet another New Jersey Indian bringing the whole race down. #DharunRavi

look at the guys profile:

"Bobby Jindal

@Bobby*Jindal*2016

My birthname is Robert Jindal. People always confuse me with the Governor. Unlike him, I don't believe in Jesus and I ****** love abortion."

edited: added * in the twitter handle

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 16 Mar 2012 23:55

the problem is with Indians going gaga over Jindal. the fact that he is a Christian convert should make him the greatest traitor. but instead, they were and still are more than ready to identify him as "one of their own". this allows the guy to be an "internal dissenter" and loosen the unity from the inside, so to speak. if instead, Indians had denied him the use of his "Indianness", he wouldn't be in the position to post cute little twitter messages. the concept of US vs. THEM is lacking. when he abandons his dharma and accepts Christianity, he no longer is a part of "US". otherwise, a few like him are used as "voices of dissent".

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 17 Mar 2012 00:10

Remember this case of Vijay Kumar

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/video?id=7657098

arrested randomly. Looks like US justice system is overkill when it comes to Indian origin people. Indians should not think they are different from blacks and hispanics

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 17 Mar 2012 00:11

^^^
yup, Indians in US usually are under the delusion that b/c they have better education than average Black or Hispanic, somehow they are different. that their immigrunt status is overlooked.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 17 Mar 2012 00:48

Re: The Ravi case-- These incidents did not happen in a room that was Clementi's alone. It was a room he shared with Ravi, a room that contained Ravi's personal belongings as well as Clementi's. Clementi was bringing other people into it who were strangers to Ravi. That Clementi was having sex with those other people, or that they happened to be men, is irrelevant here.

If my roommate was bringing in strange people into a room he shared with me, after having known me for only three weeks, I'd want to know what was going on in there while I was away. Homophobia has nothing to do with it.

Ravi's mistake was that he didn't approach the authorities and insist on a room re-assignment, but instead set up this webcam. Maybe he was afraid to approach the authorities on account of being branded a homophobe, or prejudiced; so he set up the webcam hoping it would gather some evidence (of his belongings being tampered with, perhaps) to bolster his case. It was still an invasion of privacy, but the "hate-crime" label is bogus, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's been applied only because Ravi happens to be of Indian descent.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 17 Mar 2012 01:04

^^^Devesh: Out of curiosity, what would the BRF reaction have been if Ravi had been a paki? Or if the gay kid had been Indian and a white kid did the same? I suspect he would have been devoured here.

^^^rsgrini: It is not the job of the prosecutor to be 'understanding' rather to go full bore to convict. Also, the verdict is that of the jury and the defense gets to veto certain jurors, ask for change of venue etc. Also, keep in mind that Dharun turned down a plea bargain and took his chances in open court and came out worse.

"The case was rare because almost none of the facts were in dispute. Mr. Ravi’s lawyers agreed that he had set up a webcam on his computer, then gone into a friend’s room and viewed Mr. Clementi kissing a man he had invited to his room three weeks after arriving at Rutgers in September 2010. Mr. Ravi sent Twitter and text messages telling others what he had seen, and urged them to watch a second viewing, then deleted messages after Mr. Clementi killed himself. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/17/nyreg ... se.html?hp

Tyler Clementi asked for a change of roommates. Why did Dharun Ravi not do the same : "Hey, just not comfortable with my roomie's visitors....." ?

Dharun Ravi just happens to be of Indian origin but he could have been anything: Hispanic, Russian, Chinese, German or a Boston Brahmin. What he shares is the 'take no prisoners' trait that usually lands you a lucrative job on Wall Street until you cross the line.

Bye the bye, I have been with people who proclaim that Rajat Gupta has been singled out because he is Indian and far too successful. Go figure.

Finally, what do you say to Tyler Clementi's parents?

Added later: Missed Rudradev's post ^^^: "Maybe he was afraid to approach the authorities on account of being branded a homophobe, or prejudiced; so he set up the webcam hoping it would gather some evidence (of his belongings being tampered with, perhaps) to bolster his case."

I would have held accepted that he might have been afraid to be branded a homophobe if it were not for the fact that he was inviting his friends to view the scene:

"Mr. Ravi’s Twitter feed — where Mr. Ravi told others he had seen his roommate “kissing a dude” — 38 times in the days after the first webcam viewing."

Tweeting is a far more public way to get branded as a homophobe that by going to the RA.

He is guilty of invasion of privacy no question. Is he also guilty of a hate crime? Well, he's got a chance to appeal and he will be out on bail.

praksam · Post by **praksam** » 17 Mar 2012 01:14

^^ so Cosmo_R,According to you Justice has been served?What's your take on the Verdict?

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 17 Mar 2012 01:14

praksam wrote:^^ so Cosmo_R,According to you Justice has been served?What's your take on the Verdict?

Check the last line.

rgsrini · Post by **rgsrini** » 17 Mar 2012 01:15

^^Cosmo...
Doesn't matter what the procedures are. There is no malice or bias against "gays" in his case but he was convicted of that. He had acted stupidly because he has not been in any similar situation prior to that. He used twitter because that is the normal way of communicating these days to younger generation. It is even easier than word of mouth these days. No question that this is stupidity, but certainly not bias intimidation. If anything, Dharun is the one who felt intimidated by his room mate's abnormal (because having sex 3 weeks into college is something that Indian kids are not used to) behaviour.

Everyone participated in the viewing should have been committed of atleast some part of the crime, but the prosecutor didn't go for that. He bribed them with freedom to testify against this guy. May be perfect as per the procedures, but there is no principle of natural justice in this.

Added later:
IMO he would have done the same thing, if the room mate was having sex with a woman. His crime is clearly invasion of privacy, but not a hate crime. US Justice system has failed today.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 17 Mar 2012 01:17

rgsrini wrote:^^Cosmo...
Doesn't matter what the procedures are. There is no malice or bias against "gays" in his case but he was convicted of that. He had acted stupidly because he has not been in any situation similar prior to that. He used twitter because that is the normal way of communicating these days to younger generation. It is even easier than word of mouth these days. No question that this is stupidity, but certainly not bias intimidation. If anything, Dharun is the one who felt intimidated by his room mate's abnormal (because having sex 3 weeks into college is something that Indian kids are not used to) behaviour.

Everyone participated in the viewing should have been committed of a tleast some part of the crime, but the prosecutor didn't go for that. He bribed them with freedom to testify against this guy. May be perfect as per the procedures, but there is no principle of natural justice in this.

I'm not sure what 'natural justice' is. If anything was done unconstitutionally, Ravi's defense can drive a truck through it on appeal.

I hope everyone here realizes that he does have the right of appeal and that the verdict may be overturned in whole or in part.

Added: As for holding other viewers responsible as part of some sort of fairness, it would not hold up in court because it would be patently without any sort of legal foundation.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 17 Mar 2012 01:22

ah, yes! we must find in ourselves to create bogus "if's" and "but's" and ask others to justify their opinion based on those if's and but's. in this instance, there is one important question. is this a hate crime? was it motivated by hatred? I don't think so, plain and simple. it was an invasion of privacy, yes, but not a hate crime. the prosecution claims that it is a hate crime, but from all that I have read about the case, they have't "proved" that it is hate crime. it takes substantial proof to claim anything as "hate crime". there was no such dangling/smoking gun in this case. and that sums up to me, the bias involved in this case. a White kid could provide all sorts of character witnesses to prove that he is a "good Christian". a Hindu has no hope of doing that.

and of course, this is what I mean by "voices of internal dissent". the valid question is whether this invasion of privacy can be called a 'hate crime'? instead, we are asked to imagine all and sundry if's and but's. consistently, this "internal dissent" of one of our own posing such "unbiased" questions, is a technique used to scatter group cohesion among the Hindus. the same happening on BRF.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 17 Mar 2012 01:40

Devesh, invasion of privacy and hate crime are two different charges. As everyone know, there is an appeal and the verdict can be overturned.

What I do find irksome is the 'narrative' that Dharun Ravi guy got an unfair verdict because he is Indian/Hindu etc and had he been Christian (a bogus but/if ) he would have.....

12 jurors were convinced on the weight of the evidence submitted to them. That is the system in this country and I frankly prefer it to the VIP justice system in India where we are coddling italians who murdered Indians.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 17 Mar 2012 01:46

deleted repeat post

rgsrini · Post by **rgsrini** » 17 Mar 2012 01:47

I am not sure if being an Indian played a part in this decision. I suspect it did though. Also, I would like to know if the Jury contain people of Indian origin? If not, it is not a jury of peers. Non Indian folks have no way of understanding the mindset of Indian kids, relate to how Indian family system works, the mental maturity of the kids in certain area.

I hope the appeal process works and doesn't fail as it did today.

praksam · Post by **praksam** » 17 Mar 2012 01:47

Cosmo_R wrote:Devesh, invasion of privacy and hate crime are two different charges. As everyone know, there is an appeal and the verdict can be overturned.

What I do find irksome is the 'narrative' that Dharun Ravi guy got an unfair verdict because he is Indian/Hindu etc and had he been Christian (a bogus but/if ) he would have.....

12 jurors were convinced on the weight of the evidence submitted to them. That is the system in this country and I frankly prefer it to the VIP justice system in India where we are coddling italians who murdered Indians.

According to your argument,A person should keep quiet if one spits on his Face thinking that it can be wiped out. Unbelieveable

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 17 Mar 2012 01:47

>> 12 jurors were convinced on the weight of the evidence submitted to them. That is the system in this country and I frankly prefer it to the VIP justice system in ...

I am glad you prefer it. You should not be too sure about the honesty of the legal minds of the US. A Stanford law graduate like Warren Christopher did not use the word "genocide" for what was happening in Rwanda. He could not find enough "evidence" that those killings had any ethnic/racial basis. So much for great American legal luminaries.

I will post some information about how fair and balanced American law enforcement machinery is in a few hours.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 17 Mar 2012 01:51

And don't forget to read Alan Dershowitz's book "The best defense". You will get some good examples of perjury in American legal system.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 17 Mar 2012 01:52

There is a fair and balanced discussion here for those interested in the debate:

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/20 ... -necessary

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 17 Mar 2012 01:53

abhishek_sharma wrote:And don't forget to read Alan Dershowitz's book "The best defense". You will get some good examples of perjury in American legal system.

Don't have the time to read Dershowitz. Are you suggesting 'perjury' was involved in the Rutgers case?

rgsrini · Post by **rgsrini** » 17 Mar 2012 01:55

^^

VIP justice system in India where we are coddling italians who murdered Indians.

Wow! Didn't realize that the justice system that convicts innocents who didn't commit a particular crime (hate in this situation) is better than the system that treats people well until they are convicted.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 17 Mar 2012 01:58

>> 12 jurors were convinced on the weight of the evidence

No, I am saying that we shouldn't be too impressed by the fact that judges were convinced by the evidence presented to them. The system is not perfect. False positives and negatives are both present.

praksam · Post by **praksam** » 17 Mar 2012 01:59

Cosmo_R wrote:There is a fair and balanced discussion here for those interested in the debate:

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/20 ... -necessary

Cosmo_R,If you get the time read this New Yorker Article.

The Story of a Suicide
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012 ... act_parker

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 17 Mar 2012 02:01

in the west, in the first month of college - almost 70-80% of kids will be trying to have sex with each other. if clementi had been in there with a girl, what would this guy be doing?

rgsrini · Post by **rgsrini** » 17 Mar 2012 02:07

Lalmohan,
IMO, knowing the family and their background personally, he would have probably done the same thing. He is a goofy kid who grew up very protected. This is the first time he is on his own and all of this happened within the first few weeks he experienced life on his own.

I can very well understand how uncomfortable he would have been with this situation. He did not have the tools (mentally) to deal with it. He couldn't have talked to his parents, as his parents probably never discussed sex with him, like most indian families. His only outlet is to discuss with his friends or fellow collegemates and that is what he did in this case.

He was stupid and invaded the privacy of someone else. He was probably curious as well. But to committ him of hate crime is unnecessary and a travesty of justice.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 17 Mar 2012 02:08

Cosmo_R wrote:
Bye the bye, I have been with people who proclaim that Rajat Gupta has been singled out because he is Indian and far too successful. Go figure.

Personally, I have no doubt that Rajat Gupta was singled out for exactly this reason. There are hundreds on Wall Street who have done what he did, but they happen to be White and/or Jewish or Christian. None of them is ever going to face justice; Rajat Gupta, an Indian, is made a scapegoat to show that the great and infallible US justice system does work against white-collar crime.

Finally, what do you say to Tyler Clementi's parents?

"Sorry you raised a messed-up kid." I mean, seriously? I know gay people in the US, and "coming out" is always a difficult process for them. They're very careful about it. However, Clementi made a series of very bad choices for a gay man who was not "out." He had sexual trysts in a space that was not his own, but that he shared with someone else, within a very short time of beginning to share it (long before any level of trust could be established with his roommate.)

If you want to do that sort of thing without openly "coming out" as gay, you need to find a place where you can completely secure your own privacy and that of your partner... not a room that you share with a third party. This may not be fair, but it's the way American society is today, largely because of the Judeo-Christian normative prejudices that pervade the American sense of morality.

Ravi has become the fall guy for "invasion of privacy", even though (and especially because) he is NOT Judeo-Christian or White. Meanwhile, what about the responsibility of Clementi to carry out activities of a private nature in some other place that he wasn't sharing with anybody else? If he didn't want to "come out", and killed himself after the truth of his orientation emerged, he should have exercised better judgment in his own actions.

Added later: Missed Rudradev's post ^^^: "Maybe he was afraid to approach the authorities on account of being branded a homophobe, or prejudiced; so he set up the webcam hoping it would gather some evidence (of his belongings being tampered with, perhaps) to bolster his case."

I would have held accepted that he might have been afraid to be branded a homophobe if it were not for the fact that he was inviting his friends to view the scene:

"Mr. Ravi’s Twitter feed — where Mr. Ravi told others he had seen his roommate “kissing a dude” — 38 times in the days after the first webcam viewing."

Tweeting is a far more public way to get branded as a homophobe that by going to the RA.

The mindset of *most* Indians raised by Indian parents in the United States clearly explains why Ravi would have been far more reluctant to go to the RA, for exactly the reason I described.

Indians here are brought up to fear authority, especially authority exercised by older people and people of the majority ethnicity. To Ravi it would have mattered a lot more what the RA (and provost, and dean of college life) thought of him had he complained. He would have been told a hundred times by his parents, don't be a troublemaker, put up with minor annoyances... keep your head down, work diligently and fulfill your dharma. This, unfortunately, is how we raise our kids as immigrants in a largely unsympathetic (if not overtly hostile) society.

On the other hand, Ravi saw the people likely to read his Twitter and Facebook feeds as his *peers*... and hence, did not fear being branded as a homophobe or troublemaker on the basis of what they heard him say. Of course this was a grave mistake in judgement on his part; Twitter and Facebook posts are considered to be "in the public domain" and in theory accessible to a far larger audience than the originator may intend. Still, this is a mistake that adult Americans of all ethnicities make all the time... look at that Congressman, Anthony Weiner!

It's unfortunate, but not surprising, that an 18-year-old kid didn't foresee the consequences of his tweets and posts. He simply did not realize that what he said on Twitter or Facebook could publicly brand him a homophobe (if Clementi hadn't died, who would have even bothered to read Ravi's tweets other than a few friends?)

He is guilty of invasion of privacy no question. Is he also guilty of a hate crime? Well, he's got a chance to appeal and he will be out on bail.

As I said, I don't think the invasion of privacy question is as cut and dried as all that. Ravi was not setting up a webcam in someone else's room where he had no business; he was setting it up in his own room, shared with Clementi, where Clementi insisted on bringing characters whom Ravi did not know or trust. Was Clementi not invading Ravi's privacy by bringing "M.B." and all these people into Ravi's room?

The hatecrime business is utter rubbish. It is a charge brought by the agenda-driven, highly politicized Gay Rights lobby seeking to scapegoat Ravi, just as Rajat Gupta was scapegoated. The Gay Rights lobby are opportunists who will seize on any headline to advance the gay narrative of victimhood; in Ravi they saw an Indian, someone completely disempowered to fight back, and seized their chance.

Ravi has a "chance to appeal" but the sort of "justice" he has received in an American court makes one wonder if the trial hasn't already been decided in the so-called "liberal" media. For US "liberals", Blacks, Hispanics and gays are "noble" minorities but Asians and Indians are derided as Uncle-Tommish white-man's-pets for playing by the rules of the system and making a success of themselves ("model minority" is a term sarcastically applied by the liberal narrative to Indians and East Asians in this regard.)

12 jurors were convinced on the weight of the evidence submitted to them. That is the system in this country and I frankly prefer it to the VIP justice system in India where we are coddling italians who murdered Indians.

The naivete of assuming that any 12 Americans aren't already saturated with prejudice by the mainstream narrative of the American media, is shocking. 12 Americans also found Tahawwur Hassan Rana not guilty of abetting the Mumbai attacks, though they convicted him of merely planning to firebomb a Danish newspaper office. Wonder why that was?

Devesh-ji and others are completely right; the fact is that if Ravi were White and Jewish or Christian, somebody would be speaking up for him right now. Nobody is, because he's Indian. That's what makes him such a convenient scapegoat for the gay lobby to dump their shrill allegations of "hatecrime" on. That's also what makes his case such a prize opportunity for the American justice system to trot out as an "example" of their liberal attitude towards gays.

lakshmikanth · Post by **lakshmikanth** » 17 Mar 2012 02:12

I am surprised that people here think that Indian's are treated "fairly" by the judiciary system in the US.

The amount of implicit racism I see here in the US is amazing. Its like a permanent tribal system perpetuated by skin color, and we browns would never be equal to a white man, whatever be the composition of the Jury.

I urge you to read this article written by a Harvard Law professor Dr. Derrick Bell. It is called the 5 rules of racial standing.

http://www.mdcbowen.org/p2/rm/define/bellsRules.html

Being of a lower, less powerful tribe , even being remotely connected to taking a white life would make the entire judiciary system work overtime to throw the book at you.

Please watch this video with Derrick Bell:
http://www.booknotes.org/Watch/34630-1/ ... +Bell.aspx

Note specifically a comment that he says to this effect: "I did not realize I was living in extreme danger! I could have gotten attacked by anyone and they would have gotten away with it".

I don't think NRIs realize the danger that they are in. The law is ruthless by itself, in case of non-whites it is almost universally applied ruthlessly as well.

Follow the law to the tee. If incase you make a mistake and incase a white person suffers, you are finished.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 17 Mar 2012 02:16

to kill a mockingbird indeed...

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 17 Mar 2012 02:45

I'm sorry but I'm not into victimhood narratives. It always ends badly. Instead of discussing the case intelligently and dispassionately, this has slipped into an indictment of the US Constitution and justice system.

I also find it morally repulsive to read things like ""Sorry you raised a messed-up kid." I was not brought up to say such hurtful things to people who've just lost their child. More power to those who can skirt such sentiment to deliver the line. I certainly would not want to be a the receiving end of such sanctimonious admonishment.

Those wailing about "no one being there for Dharun Ravi because he's Indian" should make the effort to be present in numbers at the appeal. It's the right thing to do.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 17 Mar 2012 02:49

Cosmo_R wrote:this has slipped into an indictment of the US Constitution and justice system.

It was perfectly okay when you were praising American justice system (see below). But when other pointed out its faults you are experiencing takleef. How unfortunate.

That is the system in this country and I frankly prefer it to the VIP justice system in India

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 17 Mar 2012 03:26

Cosmo_R wrote:I'm sorry but I'm not into victimhood narratives. It always ends badly. Instead of discussing the case intelligently and dispassionately, this has slipped into an indictment of the US Constitution and justice system.

Ah I see. When the gay rights people turn a college prank into a media circus case-in-point about homophobia and hate crime, it's not a victimhood narrative. When Indians point out the vulnerability of fellow Indians to this kind of scapegoating, voila, it's suddenly a victimhood narrative! Can anyone say "double standards?"

Meanwhile, it appears that anyone who criticizes the US constitution and justice system must be unintelligent and incapable of dispassionate analysis. Sieg heil... and that pretty much shows what the "First Amendment" is worth.

I also find it morally repulsive to read things like ""Sorry you raised a messed-up kid." I was not brought up to say such hurtful things to people who've just lost their child. More power to those who can skirt such sentiment to deliver the line. I certainly would not want to be a the receiving end of such sanctimonious admonishment.

Ooh, morally repulsive! You predicate an argument based entirely on emotionalism ("what would you say to Clementi's parents") and then accuse others of not being able to discuss the issue dispassionately? Talk about rank hypocrisy.

I don't know Clementi's parents and I doubt they read Bharat-Rakshak. For that matter I'm not sure why posters on Bharat-Rakshak were being asked to express messages of condolence to Clementi's parents... is it because all Indians conspire together, and so we're collectively guilty of the "hatecrime" that the American "justice" system has seen fit to pin on Dhanur Ravi?

I stand by my statement. Clementi was messed up, not for being gay, but for making choices that infringed on Ravi's privacy while failing to safeguard his own. Clearly he did not want to be "out" as a gay man, because he committed suicide when this fact emerged.

My judgement is based on the facts known about Clementi's behaviour, so there's nothing "sanctimonious" about it... unlike certain views on the capacity of Bharat-Rakshak posters for intelligent or dispassionate discussion.

Those wailing about "no one being there for Dharun Ravi because he's Indian" should make the effort to be present in numbers at the appeal. It's the right thing to do.

Be in present in numbers at the appeal, huh? You think that would make a difference, do you? What happened, then, to all those sanctimonious (I mean thoroughly principled) arguments about the American "justice" system not being swayed by public opinion... that it consists of

12 jurors ... convinced on the weight of the evidence submitted to them

?

Maybe it doesn't work that way after all?

lakshmikanth · Post by **lakshmikanth** » 17 Mar 2012 03:36

I get really sad when it is termed as "victimhood". No one is overtly or consciously victimized here.

The narratives among the media (which is 90% if not more controlled by whites), has to cater to the old European Elites with legacies from 1790s and their legitimate (and also illegitimate) children.

The early US (and most of Europe) was relatively tolerant of black people, there was no dehumanization. Rather just understanding that they are also humans but with visible differences.

After the first few revolts by indentured laborers in the US, especially after Bacon's rebellion( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacon's_Rebellion) in which BOTH blacks and whites joined in as equals, the elites figured out that in order to direct hate "away" from the elites for the sorry state the poor people are in, they would have to divide the people. Making the blacks lesser than human by dehumanizing them was a perfect way to do so. This continued in on slavery, where many (i guess around 8 - 9) white generations grew up looking down on blacks.

The popular meme for the blacks at that time was a lazy, incapable, inherently violent animal with a high sex drive. You can see these memes repeated unconsciously by even extremely liberal whites. This belief is deeply ingrained in the white brain by the media, and also passed on to these folks from their parent generation.

The constant fear after the blacks were free was that blacks would revolt. The white folks began arming up, and also lobbying for gun control laws that would prevent black people from getting guns. One example is the fact that there were more guns and bullets brought privately in the US than could outfit the Indian and Chinese armies combined right after Obama was elected. Such is the fear and paranoia about the "other".

Once the blacks were free, the white generations that grew up never could see them as equal (because they always saw them as slaves). The cognitive bias that exists travels from generation to generation, especially if there are no correcting factors. And since the media was largely white owned and also cater to whites, there was no need to correct those biases.

In-fact these biases were amplified by the whites, they did this by "finding" evidence to support their thesis that blacks are violent. i.e. if a crime is committed and the suspect is black, it takes lesser evidence to convict than if he is white. You can see this everywhere. And infact these days it has turned into an almost caste like tribalism. However you can escape the boundaries of caste in India with some effort (changing name, getting education and moving to urban areas etc). There is no way to move up the caste ladder in the US, because one cannot change the skin color. The white "caste" is also extremely powerful and merciless. Merciless not because they are inhuman, merciless because they have dehumanized every other "caste" to such an extent that their brains are wired differently to have no feelings towards non-white "out of caste" people. Proof here: http://atheism.about.com/b/2010/07/12/b ... people.htm and here: https://webapps.utsc.utoronto.ca/ose/story.php?id=2135

There is no way another "caste" can survive by going against the white "caste".

This is not a narrative of victimhood. This a narrative of uncorrected cognitive bias towards other humans, re-enforced by differences in melanin content.

It surprises me that this massive psy-ops by the old-Oiropeans has worked like a charm, now extremely poor white person would vote for a white elite guy who would probably screw him over, than vote for a non white person who may have better credentials. If one does want to get elected and one is non white, one has to try extra hard to prove that he or she is whiter than the whites. Its also pretty interesting that poor whites and poor blacks hate each other, instead of hating the elites. Divide and rule still exists!

praksam · Post by **praksam** » 17 Mar 2012 04:42

Here's a much worse case where the college students almost gang raped a girl in the dorm room but were let of with a slap on the wrist.Note that there was no mention in the media too.
Go Figures...

An Incident and Its Aftermath

At Colby College recently, 15 students have withdrawn or been suspended for sexual misconduct and related charges -- and an entire campus is struggling to understand an incident that took place in November. The college won't say exactly what occurred, but has told students that the investigation is complete, and that local police determined no criminal acts took place.

But for an event shrouded in secrecy, the fallout on the Waterville, Maine, campus has been notable:

• The number of students who are no longer on campus as a result of the incident is unusually large for a small, well-regarded liberal arts college.

• The campus has been divided over how to respond, even before the investigation was complete. The student government canceled a spirit bus to an away football game, and in an e-mail to students suggested that football players were among those accused of wrongdoing.

• The football coach, a Colby employee for 23 years, resigned in December for unspecified reasons.

• About a quarter of the college’s 1,825 students turned out for a campus meeting on sexual harassment, and students report that they have been talking about the incident for months. Many note that they have been discussing the situation based on secondhand, unconfirmed information, because the college has only confirmed that something happened and that students were punished.

The college has refused to say what occurred or reveal the identities of the accused students, citing campus policy and federal privacy laws.

An irony of the situation is that a thesis by a woman who graduated last year had already started a discussion of its argument that sexual misconduct by male athletes and others is a serious problem at the college.

Heather Pratt’s 175-page honors thesis is generally critical of Colby’s sexual misconduct policies. She wrote about past sexual violence against Colby students and said the college wasn’t doing enough to make students feel safe reporting the offenses. In many cases, the alleged perpetrators were male athletes. She describes the story of one woman who met a football player several years ago and agreed to return with him to his dorm room, where she says that he sexually assaulted her and forced her to perform oral sex. The woman didn't feel comfortable enough to pursue a disciplinary hearing.

Those findings troubled Eric Barthold, a senior on the downhill skiing and soccer teams who wants to become an English teacher. Most athletes abhor sexual abuse, Barthold said, but don’t know how to express that. So, along with two other athletes, he founded Colby’s Male Athletes Against Violence. Pratt was thrilled. About a third of Colby's students are varsity athletes, and they often end up dominating the campus social scene, Pratt said.

Barthold's group aims to raise awareness about sexual misconduct and give men an outlet to speak out against it. The initial response, he said, was promising. Knowing that students sometimes see acts of sexual violence occur but don't speak up because others aren't, the group handed out bracelets. The idea was that someone would feel more comfortable intervening if they saw others in the room were sporting a bracelet.

But despite the club’s efforts, male athletes were implicated in sexual misconduct complaints last fall. Though administrators won’t confirm that football players were involved in last November’s incident and messages sent by Inside Higher Ed to team captains and other players weren’t returned, Barthold and others said it quickly became common knowledge that football players were among those accused of sexual misconduct.

At Colby, sexual policy violations are divided into three classifications. Sexual assault generally equates to rape. Sexual harassment includes unwelcome sexual advances. Sexual misconduct includes voyeurism, secretly recording intercourse and secretly permitting others to watch sex.

None of the Colby students accused last fall were disciplined for sexual assault. The punishment for the 13 students who didn’t withdraw ranged from suspension through the end of the spring semester to multisemester suspensions. The students can earn Colby degrees after their suspensions are over, but will not be able to attend commencement. If a student was a member of a sports team, he would be able to compete again upon returning.

The allegations came shortly before an away football game against rival Bowdoin College. The student government had already booked a fan bus for students, but decided to cancel the reservation after learning of the allegations. They kept one bus for students who wanted to watch the Colby cross country team compete at Bowdoin that day.

“In light of recent pending allegations against a few members of the team, we feel that we can no longer justify the buses for the football game,” wrote the seven members of the student government executive board in a Nov. 10 e-mail to the student body. “Although the charges are only allegations, they are of a serious and ongoing nature. We cannot support students who may have acted in a blatant breach of our values as a community.”

Student government declined to be interviewed for this story, but said in an e-mail that they were pleased with the college’s investigation. Those who would talk about the incident said that the misconduct – and the widespread discussion of it – helped bring the campus together to address what had been a growing issue on campus.

The college held two forums, each drawing hundreds of students, to discuss sexual misconduct and Colby’s policies. The student government authorized the formation of the Colby Sex Club, which aims to promote discussions about sex and how students can communicate what they do and don't want to do with their partners. And Male Athletes Against Violence gained members and put on a "sex narratives" event where students could discuss their own experiences, both positive and negative. Barthold said it was powerful to hear students speak about meaningful sexual experiences.

The dean of students, Jim Terhune, led the investigation of the 15 students. While he’s proud of the process and Colby’s response, Terhune said any progress remains overshadowed by the pain of the victim. “There’s no way to look at this situation and say anything good came out of it,” he said. “Everybody involved, it was bad for them. If there’s anything we can take away from this, it’s that we have a system here that works, that takes care of victims of sexual misconduct and where people are held accountable.”

One downside of the dialogue, Barthold said, was that some students vilified all football players. That wasn’t fair, he said, and he’s glad to see students moving past those generalizations. Several football players have joined the anti-violence club, which recently changed its name to include women and non-athletes.

“A bunch of guys that had no idea about the incident definitely felt hurt about the whole thing,” Barthold said. “There was a lot of anger about how the campus reacted to them. It almost became a stigma. There’s also been a massive response from them saying we’re going to change our image.”

When writing her thesis last year, Pratt said she didn’t expect Colby to have a high-profile case of sexual misconduct so soon. But she hoped her research would help the college respond if a tragedy ever occurred.

And after what she considers a checkered past in addressing these issues, the response to this incident was gratifying. A recent decision to hire a gender and sexuality resource officer is another positive step, she said.

“The school was totally outraged as a community that came together,” she said. “The administration adjusted as best as they could. The way they dealt with it was like textbook. Issues of gender and sexuality are being talked about a lot more. I’m really proud of Colby.”

Read more: http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2012 ... z1pKAUJ5Ll
Inside Higher Ed

wong · Post by **wong** » 17 Mar 2012 05:10

Ravi and his family did not arrive in America yesterday. They should have known better and taken the
two separate probation plea deals offered to them. If this was my child, I 100% would have made him/her take the plea deal knowing what everyone knows about the American justice system. And that is precisely what the Chinese-American defendant in this particular case did.

There is a good line from the De Niro movie, "The Good Shepherd"

Joseph Palmi: Let me ask you something... we Italians, we got our families, and we got the church; the Irish, they have the homeland, Jews their tradition; even the [blacks], they got their music. What about you people, Mr. Wilson, what do you have?

Edward Wilson: The United States of America. The rest of you are just visiting.

praksam · Post by **praksam** » 17 Mar 2012 05:17

Wong,There is a difference between being Cunning and being Honest. When you figure it out,let me know.

A person who is guilty will take the plea deal..As far as I have understood it was Wei who accessed the camera the 2nd time with 3 other females from her room while Ravi was out playing frisbee.There's her Guilt..

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 17 Mar 2012 06:21

Jarita wrote:
What is stopping the Indian community in the US from taking it to Fox news and the republican party. They need to punch at their weight atleast.

Which planet do you live in boss? Faux nooge is for white Christian nationalists with a fascist tinge. And its not me, even George Soros compared the propaganda coming out from there by the white bimbos, both male & female, is comparable to what took place n Germany during WWII. I would say Faux nooge is the Zahid Hamid US TV except that guys wear suit boot, and women dunces wear sexy clothes and show lotsa skin while emanating programmed nonsense from their rear ends.

Except for playing the role of "useful idiots", there is no place for Indians with any respect on faux nooge.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 17 Mar 2012 06:33

Even the US govt has great faith in the even-handedness of their law-enforcement apparatus

From Condi Rice's memoir

The PATRIOT Act had expanded he tools that FBI and other agencies could use to fight terrorism. It helped eliminate the wall between law enforcement and intelligence officials by easing restrictions on information sharing that had prevented effective counterterrorism cooperation prior to 9/11. But the President sought to do more, and he asked his top security officials to give him more aggressive options.

The appeal sometimes resulted in good ideas with significant downsides. Attorney General John Ashcroft brought forward the possibility of greater involvement of local law enforcement officers in reporting suspicious activities and people. In general, this was fine, but when taken to the extreme it could result in overzealousness by local officials, who lacked proper training in the identification of actual terrorists --- including what one might look like. As John described some of the ideas one day in the Situation Room, I felt the need to slow the momentum toward acceptance. "Mr. President, " I said, "you and I come from parts of the country where you might want to be careful in empowering local sheriffs in this way". Enough said.The President noted that he didn't need every sheriff trying to win the Medal of Freedom in the hunt for terrorists. I felt badly because I thought that I might have embarrassed John. I called him that afternoon, and he jokingly said that he should have thought about how it sounded. "There are some places where I come from where you'd want to be careful too," he noted.