India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 17 Mar 2012 06:43

I think Dharun Ravi and his family got some really bad legal advice in this case.

When you are the principal accused in a case where there has been so much negative media publicity against you, and you are on the wrong side of PC-ness, it is extremely risky to face a jury trial. Especially when you are a member of a microscopic minority with no clout in the media.

He should have taken the plea deal.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 17 Mar 2012 06:53

RudraJi's analysis is spot on and brilliant. Having bludgeoned a poor Indian kid, whose crime was at best a roguish prank, they will tout all kinds of garbage about US law, upholding the rights of gays, you name it. Lost in this is the behavior of the so called victim who committed suicide like a coward instead of standing up and fighting a prank pulled off against him.

This reminds me of another case, the conviction of some African thug, Thomas Lubanga for war crimes by the international court. I was hearing all kinds of moralistic mumbo jumbo on NPR about how the international court has done its job, war criminals cannot away, great day for victims of brutality worldwide bla bla. I thought to myself, really? I'll take you self righteous white guys/gals seriously when your bigs boys are locked up in the Hague. Remember the gang rape of Iraq? The war criminals responsible for that are living kushy retired lives and even now come and brag about it on TV.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 17 Mar 2012 07:08

Kakkaji wrote:I think Dharun Ravi and his family got some really bad legal advice in this case.

When you are the principal accused in a case where there has been so much negative media publicity against you, and you are on the wrong side of PC-ness, it is extremely risky to face a jury trial. Especially when you are a member of a microscopic minority with no clout in the media.

He should have taken the plea deal.

Spot on.

I know of civil litigation launched by an Arab company against some US citizens in the US in 1999 and asking for a jury trial. Two years into the long process of discovery, deposition etc. 9/11 occurred. The lawyers for the Arabs advised them to settle although legal bills for each side was then in the low millions. The Arabs took that advice. Smart move.

According to the New Yorker article linked, Dharun Ravi was offered a plea deal by the prosecutors in December, of no jail time, 600 hours of community service and help in ensuring that he was not deported. He turned down that offer. A very bad move.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Mar 2012 07:26

I'm not trying to offer any excuses, but at 19 boys and girls can be very immature and do not have insight into what is considered socially or legally right or wrong. I say this based on my memories of my own mistakes at that age.

Setting up that webcam was an error of judgement. If the law says no to that, the law will win.

I can imagine the turmoil that goes through the mind of a desi kid in the US with "totally Indian" parents. It can't be easy. First gen desi immigrants to the USA made personal sacrifices and adjusted to US society for the academic an economic independence it gave them. But they are now paying a price as their children come of age - and not all kinds adjust seamlessly.

The next gen of desi kids in America will be American, not desi. The greatest pain is felt as culture changes from Indian parents to American children.

I am reminded of an incident about 25 years ago when a desi kid whose family I know was framed and jailed for murder. Maybe he is out of jail now, I don't know. Back then the desi community felt it was racist.

Another friend - a doctor is now back in India, a bitter man. He is a Christian but coloured like a desi. His white colleagues ganged up on him in a medicolegal case and broke him. He lost so much that his white American wife divorced him.

One is given a narrow path to walk on when one emigrates. Staying on that path is the sacrifice that people who emigrate make. Ironically the emigration from India is not done so much for "selfish" reasons as for collective upliftment of family, parents, brothers sisters etc.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 17 Mar 2012 07:47

not taking the plea deal was a blunder. no jail time. that was a "hail mary", in American parlance! in trials like this, the victims have a lot of sympathy. the lawyers should/would have told him that no jail time was a godsend.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 17 Mar 2012 08:58

Lilo wrote:A must watch lecture on method of "American control of Indian narrative" . - by Rajeev Malhotra.

Great presentation. This is truly a must watch and should be posted on the US thread from time to time and in other places such as Sulekha to maximize coverage.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 17 Mar 2012 09:52

CRamS wrote: Remember the gang rape of Iraq? The war criminals responsible for that are living kushy retired lives and even now come and brag about it on TV.

+1 .Infact why just Iraq.US has been gang raping countries for a long time now.Starting from Vietnam , it has raped Panama ,Grenada , Kosovo and now Libya.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 17 Mar 2012 10:08

shiv wrote:I'm not trying to offer any excuses, but at 19 boys and girls can be very immature and do not have insight into what is considered socially or legally right or wrong. I say this based on my memories of my own mistakes at that age.

Setting up that webcam was an error of judgement. If the law says no to that, the law will win.

I can imagine the turmoil that goes through the mind of a desi kid in the US with "totally Indian" parents. It can't be easy. First gen desi immigrants to the USA made personal sacrifices and adjusted to US society for the academic an economic independence it gave them. But they are now paying a price as their children come of age - and not all kinds adjust seamlessly.

The next gen of desi kids in America will be American, not desi. The greatest pain is felt as culture changes from Indian parents to American children.

I am reminded of an incident about 25 years ago when a desi kid whose family I know was framed and jailed for murder. Maybe he is out of jail now, I don't know. Back then the desi community felt it was racist.

Another friend - a doctor is now back in India, a bitter man. He is a Christian but coloured like a desi. His white colleagues ganged up on him in a medicolegal case and broke him. He lost so much that his white American wife divorced him.

One is given a narrow path to walk on when one emigrates. Staying on that path is the sacrifice that people who emigrate make. Ironically the emigration from India is not done so much for "selfish" reasons as for collective upliftment of family, parents, brothers sisters etc.

Shiv ji , America is becoming a country that is in a league by itself.It is rapidly becoming a prison state.About 6 million people in America are now actually incarcerated(the largest no.of prisoners in the world).To give you a context that is actually 2% of its population and many of them on extremely minor charges.It is an over regulated society where more often than not Political correctness decides the outcome of a legal tangle.You know how USA likes to pontificate other countries about human rights and liberty.Well not since the time of Hitler's Nazis and Stalin's Gulags , so many have been imprisoned in a single country.America is well on its way to becoming a police state(with police become more militarized by every passing day).The land of the free and home of the brave is now " the land of the slave and home of the cruel ".

Just check some prisoner statistics for US and compare them with other countries including totalitarian countries like China and Iran.You will find that something is really wrong with America.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_p ... per-capita

The truth is that today in America anyone can be arrested at any point of time and have his life destroyed.So much for freedom and human rights.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 17 Mar 2012 10:26

rgsrini wrote:This family would have never discussed about "being gay" or even about sex to Dharun, like a typical Indian family.

It would be hard to convince an American about this. I mean, my 8 year old knew about "being gay" from school, so to say that someone who grew up in America wouldn't have formed opinions and convictions by adulthood about homosexuality, would not be a credible argument.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 17 Mar 2012 10:41

I'll skip over the whole race issue in the court case and look solely at the facts. His being Indian is irrelevant, as are his traditional upbringing. This case has holes the appeal can drive a lorry through.

The foundation upon which Ravi is being indicted is bias intimidation. Yet, the facts state that during the very first episode, the victim knew the webcam was on, and his conversation with his friend indicates he wasn't really bothered. To further underline the argument, he asked Ravi again for private time with his older male lover. This is hardly behavior of someone who was allegedly intimidated enough to jump off a bridge.

The secondary counts center around invasion of privacy. However, the room was Ravi's as well; there's no expectation of privacy on the victim's part. Ravi had every right to safeguard his possessions, particularly since his roommate invited a guest whose identity and bonafides are not revealed.

The tertiary counts of evidence and witness tampering fall apart when the primary counts don't hold water.

Once the desire to have a scapegoat has been accomplished, as it has now, matters can be addressed more logically. The verdict has served to punish someone for what the victim ended up doing, not for what the alleged culprit did - prosecutors themselves couldn't directly attribute motive.

The best course of action on their part would be getting rid of their current incompetent legal representation and get lawyers who can have the charges dismissed on appeal. The guy doesn't deserve to be punished for being any dumber than the average college-going kid his age.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Mar 2012 12:10

shouldnt this case be discussed in nukkad? has no bearing on indo-us strategic relations?

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 17 Mar 2012 18:20

Balaji Temple’s Hinduism Summit to Present Hinduism’s Science, Denigration and Digestion

BRIDGEWATER, New Jersey: Recent surveys showed that a majority of Americans are leaning towards Hindu thought. At the same time, a study indicates that over 1/3rd of youth from Hindu families in America may be converting out of Hinduism. While the growing interest in Hinduism is a testimony to Hinduism’s science and universal nature, the counter trend shows ignorance about Hinduism’s uniqueness among many born Hindus.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 17 Mar 2012 18:52

The webcam was aimed at the room mate's bed which was on the opposite side of Ravi's possessions. That being said the punishment far outweighs the crime. Having been horribly victimized in a civil case (with a judge and no jury option) I know how bad things can happen to good people in a US court. I happen to believe it is the jury system which keeps the US free.

However any trial is a crap shoot. This case has tremendous PC baggage and the defendant's race/immigrant status surely didn't help. Unfortunately Ravi either got poor legal advise or was stubborn and wanted to fight it out. 600 hrs community service, no jail time and help to avoid deportation is a sweet deal given the circumstances in this case. There is an appeals process and all is not lost. As an aside my personal experience turned my dislike of attys into a visceral hatred. Almost every wrong with Umrikah can be traced back to these ba$tards. As Shakespeare said " first we kill all the lawyers."

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Mar 2012 20:02

Completely OT and I may be wrong. Why the pluck are desi parents in America so keen on making their kids do medicine? Why are more desi kids not doing law? I would give pisko explanations easily but let me hear what others have to say.

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 17 Mar 2012 20:25

darshhan wrote:
Shiv ji , America is becoming a country that is in a league by itself.It is rapidly becoming a prison state.About 6 million people in America are now actually incarcerated(the largest no.of prisoners in the world).To give you a context that is actually 2% of its population and many of them on extremely minor charges.
The truth is that today in America anyone can be arrested at any point of time and have his life destroyed.So much for freedom and human rights.

It is around 3 million including county jails - so roughly around 1 in 100 live behind bars on any given day. Their conservative outlook towards drug related crimes ( better than many other countries including Singapore where they break your neck for a roll of weed!), substantial resources available towards maintaining a large police force, and privatizing prisons can all be the reasons for nearly 3 million people being behind bars.

As for life being destroyed at any point of time, i think that can be said about any place on earth and not just US. For everything said and done, US still has a relative fair and free trial.

The sentencing of Ravi, though harsh was easy to see that it was going to end the way it did. State of NJ wanted to make an example out of homophobics, and the verdict would have been the same irrespective of the color/race/religion of the accused. Like Shiv said, we've all done dumb and silly things at that age, but Ravi being a kid of todays web generation and one-click information should have probably known better. It is a second shock this year for the usually silent Indian community - first the Ravi case and then that Ron Paul's fanboy fire bombing synagogues.

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 17 Mar 2012 20:30

shiv wrote:Completely OT and I may be wrong. Why the pluck are desi parents in America so keen on making their kids do medicine? Why are more desi kids not doing law? I would give pisko explanations easily but let me hear what others have to say.

Could be the age old cultural thing that your kid either be a doctor or an engineer else he/she be deemed a failure by relatives and neighbors. Having said that, atleast in the last 5-7 years, an increasing number of Indian students are taking up international studies and advanced political science which hopefully will infuse some fresh perspective into our foreign policy in years to come. ( For those who have visited John Hopkins, has anyone else been surprised by the sheer number of chinese students taking up advanced international studies ?)

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Mar 2012 21:01

hypercompetitive desi parents in bay area/boston definitely aspire their kids go to Ivy league(preferably MIT, harvard or Princeton) or stanford, followed by MBA from a top school.
you are right that law is not much on the radar there, perhaps because Indic role models in academics, medicine, science, finance and engineering are easy to see, but can anyone name a top PIO lawyer otoh? there's only the deputy DA of nyc preet bharara who came in news in the rajat gupta case.

rgsrini · Post by **rgsrini** » 17 Mar 2012 21:01

^^

It would be hard to convince an American about this. I mean, my 8 year old knew about "being gay" from school, so to say that someone who grew up in America wouldn't have formed opinions and convictions by adulthood about homosexuality, would not be a credible argument.

Completely misinterpreting the post. Like typical Indian families, they wouldn't discuss about sex with their kids freely. If that subject comes they probably avoid discussing it. It doesn't mean that the kid is not aware of sexuality and gays.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 17 Mar 2012 21:14

Follow the money trial. Average salaries from average law schools are not very attractive. The number of hours spent is also not very attractive. Only top lawyers rake in a lot, for which a combination of theatrics and seeking popularity to self promote is a must.

ranjbe · Post by **ranjbe** » 17 Mar 2012 21:16

shiv wrote:Completely OT and I may be wrong. Why the pluck are desi parents in America so keen on making their kids do medicine? Why are more desi kids not doing law? I would give pisko explanations easily but let me hear what others have to say.

As one of the desis who emigrated to US in the 60's, and who has one son + daughter-in-law working as physicians, and around a dozen kids of my very close Indian-origin friends also qualified as physicians, the answer is simple: a biased compensation system where a physician has both job security and an income way above other professions (a lawyer handling criminal cases has a good chance of starving). When we came from India, engineers were as well paid and as well-respected as doctors. Not true in the USA.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 17 Mar 2012 22:15

Lilo wrote:A must watch lecture on method of "American control of Indian narrative" . - by Rajeev Malhotra.

[/quote]

I would say Rajiv MalhotraJi is modern India's pre-eminent intellectual. Several years on, if ever there is a resurgence of a genuinely nationalist India, that takes pride in its Hindu civilzational heritage, I would say Rajiv MalhotraJi would be the pioneer. The equivalent of the US founding fathers that white Americans worship and derive their nationalism from. I have read all his works, I follow his speeches, and I learn immensely. I am currently reading his "being different" book. I wish younger generation of Indian read and learn from his works.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 17 Mar 2012 22:25

shiv wrote:Completely OT and I may be wrong. Why the pluck are desi parents in America so keen on making their kids do medicine? Why are more desi kids not doing law? I would give pisko explanations easily but let me hear what others have to say.

this is one question , absolutely no one has an answer. Even Jewish population is highly educated. But they are well represented in each and every field. But Indians seem to have a science , engineering ,medicine and finance predilection only .Indians seem to be under represented in law , and are almost absent in arts and humanities . This probably reflects the trend back in India. Most of the immigrant parents are from science , medicine and engineering background . So that could be a major factor. I am not too sure , if many Indian lawyers emigrated to the US .

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 17 Mar 2012 22:31

tejas wrote:. As an aside my personal experience turned my dislike of attys into a visceral hatred. Almost every wrong with Umrikah can be traced back to these ba$tards. As Shakespeare said " first we kill all the lawyers."

Very true . The near destruction of our profession , in umrikah can be traced back to attys.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Mar 2012 22:38

parents generally shape their kids towards their own likes and dislikes.
so discount the 1st gen kids.
study has to focus on true PIOs, kids whose parents were born in america...the kids born of the indic settlers in 60s and 70s would be in their 30s and 40s now surely have kids of their own who are in 0-15 age bracket surely. over the next decade someone could study their career choices.
these kids were both brought up by american parents and are american themselves.

on the flip side I am not sure how far you can call them 'indian' enough for them to be a +ve or -ve factor in india-american relations...most likely they will be as benign as any gora out of there.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 17 Mar 2012 22:41

Puff, folks the answer is obvious. (w.r.t. US)

Indians will do well in objective fields (med, eng, science)

Indians will do poorly in subjective fields (politics, law etc)

Why? The degree with which each profession is connected to larger social ethos and bias.

Pretty simple.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 17 Mar 2012 23:19

shiv wrote:Completely OT and I may be wrong. Why the pluck are desi parents in America so keen on making their kids do medicine? Why are more desi kids not doing law? I would give pisko explanations easily but let me hear what others have to say.

Law is merely a way station to a political career, and most of the first generation parents have a dislike for politics due to their experiences in India.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Mar 2012 23:48

CRS, There is a generation of expatriate Indians who left in late sixties-early 70s who have had the time to think this thru and are able to articulate the issues very clearly. Their time in West has cleared the Macaulayite nonsense force fed into their minds in the Nehruvian syncretic/synthetic myth of the India that is Bharat.

Kaushal, Anaath Das, parsuram all told us that very vision on this forum and get tagged as saffronites!
Some younger folks like Acharya, Brihaspati, Atri, Jambudwipa, Rudradev, even ArmenT(with his arms blog) are all articulating the Indian Narrative.

BTW, RM came to Bay Area and visited Kaushal's home to inaugurate his library and a whole galaxy of Bay Area members were there!

nvishal · Post by **nvishal** » 18 Mar 2012 00:17

Lilo wrote:A must watch lecture on method of "American control of Indian narrative" . - by Rajeev Malhotra.

2 hours worth of presentation but it was good.

People only look at one side of the story. There is always an equal and opposite effect. You need to remember that criticism encourages change. So while particular subjects are being used to create a distorted narrative on india, it also helps solve our problems; ie the other effect.

rgsrini · Post by **rgsrini** » 18 Mar 2012 02:55

CRamS Thanks. What you have posted here is the second part (Day 2) of the lecture. I am posting the link for the first part (Day 1) of Shri RM's lecture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUBrwCmK ... re=related

rgsrini · Post by **rgsrini** » 18 Mar 2012 03:05

Nvishal,
Just for my education, can you please give me some examples of problems that have been resolved by foreign intervention and criticism within India and elsewhere. I am certainly not trying to put you in the spot here. I genuinely want to know if it is factual. Thanks.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 18 Mar 2012 03:16

Well it could be that as a people who literally worship money, Indians will settle for being physicians. After all one need not struggle with grants, peer review, leading edge developments, or much intellectual application as a physician.

It is easy and lucrative to be a mediocre medico but difficult to be a journeyman researcher.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 18 Mar 2012 04:37

^^^^
starting payscales of being a medico if far higher than many other professions in massaland.
Surprisingly one does not find many docs in richest league names. they get staurated due to work. Little time for other means of augmenting income.
You have all other non medicos -- jobs/gates/soros/buffets etc who are in their own leagues.

My feeling is sdres have been thru the rough in their punyabhoomi found the best way to get rich is by engineer or medico over years. Initial hard work pays for later years of economic security. This is drilled years into childhood by parents for studying particular subjects.
Hence the predominance of sons of sdres into engineering/medical areas.

Other subjects are not particluarly appealing for now. It is just a passage of time.
With time lawyers arts and humaninties will create its own niche of sdres.

Interestingly, all can see the tremendous fightback by Rajiv Malhotra and many others who are primarily from the engineering fields.
Tomorrow may see sdres from other fields leading the fightback.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Mar 2012 06:16

sanjaykumar wrote:Well it could be that as a people who literally worship money, Indians will settle for being physicians. After all one need not struggle with grants, peer review, leading edge developments, or much intellectual application as a physician.

It is easy and lucrative to be a mediocre medico but difficult to be a journeyman researcher.

Completely off topic but I get the feeling that in the US high physician salaries have been linked to a demand for getting absolute results in a field where results cannot be guaranteed. Hence adverts for lawyers encouraging litigation for poor results.

Indians took exactly the opposite route where physicians were not paid much but were greatly respected and never blamed for poor results.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Mar 2012 07:17

In San Jose an Indian American was beaten up in a super market parking lot in Nov 2011. The suspect was arrested but not charged with hate crime in March 2012.

Yet Indian Americans talk about their increasing political clout! Even the American guy who attacked a Sikh gas station owner after 9/11 never got charged with hate crime.

The Indian student in New Jersey gets charged with hate crime as the victim is an American.

praksam · Post by **praksam** » 18 Mar 2012 07:30

Sign the petition in support of Dharun Ravi.

https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/% ... n=shorturl

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 18 Mar 2012 08:09

praksam wrote:Sign the petition in support of Dharun Ravi.

https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/% ... n=shorturl

Done

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Mar 2012 12:35

How can a strategic ally/partner/pal threaten us with "sanctions" if we don't stop buying Iranian oil? Well,that's what our "bumchum" Om-Baba has done-read a post in the Iran thread.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 18 Mar 2012 13:32

ramana wrote:In San Jose an Indian American was beaten up in a super market parking lot in Nov 2011. The suspect was arrested but not charged with hate crime in March 2012.

Yet Indian Americans talk about their increasing political clout! Even the American guy who attacked a Sikh gas station owner after 9/11 never got charged with hate crime.

The Indian student in New Jersey gets charged with hate crime as the victim is an American.

So ONE example makes the trend? My wife's friend's dad (Caucasian American as they come) was shot by an Indian American kid approx. two years ago and the kid wasn't prosecuted with a hate crime. So what's your point sir?

For the record, this has nothing to do with the thread topic, so I humbly request the admins to please move all the relevant posts to a separate thread.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 18 Mar 2012 13:57

praksam wrote:Sign the petition in support of Dharun Ravi.

https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/% ... n=shorturl

Done

Anant · Post by **Anant** » 18 Mar 2012 14:21

Shiv and others,

I'm a scientist and practicing intellectual property attorney in the US. Thanks for all the anti-attorney jokes guys. I've heard them all so keep up the good work. That being said, there are plenty of Indians in legal practice, both in academia and as legal practitioners. It is true that MD's generally make more than attorneys; only law students who graduate in the upper third of their classes and who work at larger firms have the ability to make a good living if they can bill their clients the requisite billable hours until they become partner. On the other hand, even the worst MD student (last in class) makes decent money as a physician, for now. That system is changing and in another 5-10 years the sweet ride MD's had in the US will come to an end mainly due to decreased payout by insurance companies for procedures and by the government for programs such as Medicare and Medicaid.

I've also read some posts where posters say that Mr. Ravi has a good chance on appeal. This is simply not true. I'd like to add my 2 cents to your understanding of American jurisprudence. Most appeals court look at the record in the district court or court below where the trial was held. De novo appeals are rare. Most appeals are successful if there is an error in legal procedure, not legal fact finding (aka what the jury did). In other words, appeals courts do not re-review presented evidence or testimony of witnesses etc. They review things like whether the charging was right, defendant had his constitutional rights violated, or whether there was something else prejudicial in the presentation of the case (such as jury tampering or improper voir dire). If there was a "jury problem" in Mr. Ravi's trial, there would have either been a hung jury or mistrial. Dharun should have taken the plea deal. Simple as that. Minority defendants have a rough road in the US in criminal proceedings, especially when the topic is the de jure thing to care for, namely gay rights. If I was his attorney, I would have implored him to take the plea bargain. Now, his best chance is during the sentencing hearing (post-conviction relief) to have his attorney reduce the sentence based on the fact that he had no prior record and that his client wishes to make some form of mea culpa and offer restitution. Bad legal advice is just that, bad. I vehemently disagree with the severity of this punishment. Chances are that a baby and woman killer like Robert Bales will see less prison than Dharun due to his race and the fact that the US military shields it own (esp when the victims aren't white).

But to answer your question Shiv, as others have; Indian students entertain medicine due to money and the stability of the job. Simple as that. This money pot is dwindling and we will see Indian students pursuing the next big thing--perhaps investment banking or whatever else makes cash. Sad but true.