India-US Strategic News and Discussion

nvishal · Post by **nvishal** » 18 Mar 2012 14:30

rgsrini wrote:Nvishal,
Just for my education, can you please give me some examples of problems that have been resolved by foreign intervention and criticism within India and elsewhere. I am certainly not trying to put you in the spot here. I genuinely want to know if it is factual. Thanks.

The current form of hinduism that is practiced in india is still ritualistic and orthodox. It used to be even more intense in the old days until division of labour based on caste began to be flouted. In this age(compliments to western idea of a nation-state), "economy" has replaced the "vaishyas". "indian military" has replaced the "kshatriyas". And "policy makers" have replaced the "brahmins". Nothing has changed except the "name" and the equal participation of the indian population from all spectrums.

This is very significant: "Equal participation from all spectrums".

Sati was originally a wartime phenomenon which later began incorporating into indian culture as a form of tradition. Today, it is hard to name even 10 cases of sati in the last 100 years but that does not mean that it was not prevalent in the old days. You have to recognize some positives which came out of the british raj.

There are two types of effect: tangible and intangible. The later is difficult to recognize because it cannot be seen.

You might be speculating whether hinduism(the non-dogmatic umbrella) will survive the distortion. My answer is yes. If you look carefully at the abrahamic followers in india, you will notice that it is a socio-economic and "political" revolt. It lacks a foundation. After all, how is a god-man(jesus) able to attract followers in this land of thousand other god-mans? The attraction is societal. It is monetary. But yet, it is temporary. As long as there is a social and economic exploit.

To win this game, you need to do two things:
1) Counter the social exploit: Criticize and change the societal aspect of current hinduism. It will appear as disastrous in the short term but it will be beneficial in the long term.

2) Counter the economic exploit: Money can buy things. It can buy allegiance. 2/3rd of the indian population is vulnerable to economic exploitation. ie, they can be bought for money. You cannot change this until you can find a way to channel indias economic prosperity to rural india.

All I'm doing is reiterating the "broken windows fallacy" theory. The predicament of war is disastrous and opportunistic at the same time. Would india have built a military capability if it weren't for external aggression? If you point out something negative to an individual for long enough, that individual will probably not do it. It's basic psychology. If you keep pointing out balochistan time and time again, a BD like thing on it will not happen. This is the intangible aspect I'm trying to point out. This intangible aspect is strategically more powerful than the tangible aspect... simply because what cannot be seen is very difficult to be understood. For simplicity purpose, concentrate on what can be seen(the social and economic exploits) and try your best to solve these problems without worrying about the short-term consequences.

nvishal · Post by **nvishal** » 18 Mar 2012 14:41

Philip wrote:How can a strategic ally/partner/pal threaten us with "sanctions" if we don't stop buying Iranian oil? Well,that's what our "bumchum" Om-Baba has done-read a post in the Iran thread.

What on earth makes you think that US is indias strategic partner? IOW, you are talking about "trust". The MMRCA decision clearly showed that india does not trust the US.

What US wants from india, the later will not provide. As I understand this better, it is my opinion that india will let china expand and challenge the US spear of influence. The concept that china and india will not go to war is based on the pretext that both have a capability to inflict cost on each other. Same can be said for US and china.

The game is such that diplomacy will always be preferred over military action. In the end, the US is going to steadily loose influence over south-east asia.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 18 Mar 2012 14:45

Anant:
One big issue is fairness of trial, and trial by media issue here.

For all the bruha, Ravi spent a few seconds spying, was kind of taken aback and that was the end of his voyeurism. But the issue has been escalated well out of context with every Tom, Dick and Harry taking a shot at him, all the way to Governer Christie. In this environment it will be hard to claim that the jury was not affected, especially when the initial media reports were all about recordings and broadcasts when none of them happened.

The particular campaign linked above is addressing that very issue. I wish it was worded better but it gets to the essence.

For those interested there is a detailed event by event coverage in this article:
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012 ... ntPage=all

Invasion of privacy, YES.
Hate Crime, not in by a mile.

nvishal · Post by **nvishal** » 18 Mar 2012 14:47

@rgsrini
Read through this wikileak cable talking about christianity in india. They are unconsciously hinting at the intangible aspects yet they do not understand it themselves.

‘Islands of growth' despite hurdles for Catholic Church

In a July 24, 2002 meeting, Archbishop Antonio Veglio, Secretary of the Congregation for Eastern Churches, told the U.S. Acting Deputy Chief of Mission, George Frowick, that of the 22 non-Roman Christian Rites in his charge, the vast majority faced threats to their stability. Only two — the Greek Rite Church in Ukraine and Keralite Catholic churches in India — appeared to be secure, according to an account of what the Archbishop said, as provided in the cable (3387: confidential, dated July 26, 2002).

That's right. The majority of them do not have a foundation and will not have it in the future. The kerala christians they are talking about are syrian-christians who are not ethnic indians in the first place.

The syrian-christians are the only foreign group in india that have spread and expanded throughout india unhindered and keeping a low profile at the same time.

member_23061 · Post by **member_23061** » 18 Mar 2012 20:14

The logic used by some people to defend Dharun would make a Lahori mullah cringe.

He admitted to his crime to the police

His defense does not add up because his friends ratted him out

Molly Wei, his girl-friend ratted him out

He rejected a sweet plea bargain which gave him an image of a remorseless bully

Since people on this thread consider calling Clementi's parents messed up ..... what do you say to this?

Code: Select all

Ravi's lawyer, Steven Altman, says the 19-year-old rejected the deal because, "He's innocent. He's not guilty."

In the new deal, Ravi would be put on probation, be required to do 600 hours of community service and receive counseling. The state would also help him try to stave off any attempt by the federal government to deport him.

Ravi, a citizen of India, could face deportation if convicted.

Ravi has less than a month to reconsider the plea deal before the judge in the case says he'll close the window of opportunity for a negotiated plea bargain. The trial is scheduled to begin February 21.

Dharun's defense wanted to engage in semantics when Molly Wei who was more of an intermediary accepted the plea for 300 hours community service. Instead of wailing and breast beating like our brethren across the border, people should realise that in a jury trial ..... subjectiveness is inherent. The facts were skewed against Dharun, his behavior certainly did not show what American's in jury want most 'REMORSE'. It was not about skin color or sexual orientation that did him in, it was the crappy decisions taken for him.

Dharun was just another college jerk, who should not be in trial for his vanilla homophobism but rather confronted on it in by those concerned. Too bad the kid died and there was enough threads to make a noose for him.

P.S: NJ Bias intimidation law is pretty clear that if the person 'feels' it to be hateful, it will be considered to be so. Since Clementi killed himself over an act that was meant to highlight his sexual orientation, the jury has to decide if it fitted the description of bias intimidation which it decided it did. Too bad for the defense.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 18 Mar 2012 22:11

Prasobh, the stupidity of Ravi's team of not accepting the plea deal is established. but that in itself is not a reason to crucify him. i'm afraid you're making a straw man argument here. not accepting the plea deal, in no way, establishes Ravi's guilt. that is a twisted reasoning, if i've ever seen one.

member_23061 · Post by **member_23061** » 18 Mar 2012 22:48

I am sorry, you are the one holding a straw man argument here. Evidence indicates that Ravi [as he admitted] did infact try to broadcast a video of Clementi due to his sexual orientations[[Invasion of Privacy]]. His statements following that had a homophobic bent. His actions caused distress to Clementi who committed suicide which can be construed as a direct result of Ravi's actions. Hence bias intimidation by New Jersey law.

You may not like the law but unfortunately there is enough of it to get the verdict delivered.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 18 Mar 2012 23:13

sanjaykumar wrote:Well it could be that as a people who literally worship money, Indians will settle for being physicians. After all one need not struggle with grants, peer review, leading edge developments, or much intellectual application as a physician.

It is easy and lucrative to be a mediocre medico but difficult to be a journeyman researcher.

yeah..yeah.. even a barbers job is tougher than that of a medico ...we just need to drive around a porsche in a white lab coat , and go door to door collecting cash..

member_23061 · Post by **member_23061** » 18 Mar 2012 23:35

And study for nearly 10 years.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 18 Mar 2012 23:51

And not to mention in India at least its takes hell of a lot of Hard work Plus in many huge Capitation ( unless you are super brilliant and get into Govt. sponsored seat) to be a doctor. Supply is neatly restricted in the Indian context.

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 19 Mar 2012 00:19

VikramS wrote:Anant:
One big issue is fairness of trial, and trial by media issue here.

.

Can't help it unless they bring in jurors from mars. Every case that makes major news headlines gets effected to some degree by the media trial. Reminds me of the sentence handed out to one time highest paid CEO in US, Tyco's former chief Dennis Kuzlowski who was handed a indefinite sentence for tax evasion on some stupid art collection, and misusing company resources to throw a party for his wife.

For those who support Ravi, his biggest concern taking a plea bargain seems to have been his apprehension about being sent back to India. He is a young man who made a terrible mistake. I hope he gets < 5 yrs and starts a fresh life somewhere else.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 19 Mar 2012 00:24

Prasobh:

"Yay" does not show contempt or hatred or phobia. It does show excitement at watching something he has never seen. Fact of the matter is that unless you are gay or enjoy gay p0rn, you are not used to scenes of intimacy between two men; it is bound to illicit some reaction of surprise.

And you claims about Tyler killing himself because of Ravi are absolutely bogus. The guy was not a whimpering child bullied into a corner; he talked about the incident with his friends, took screenshot of twitter feeds, talked to the RA, refused to sleep in the RA's room, AND invited his off-campus older lover back to his room. These are not signs of a person being bullied into suicide; these are signs of a person not afraid of doing what he wanted to doing.

I wonder why the state did not allow ANY evidence about what Tyler said about his suicide into evidence? In his own words he was rejected by his mom after he came out. Very likely he the evidence would have revealed a long history and not Ravi's action which led to his suicide. How can the jury infer that Tyler felt intimidated when none of the evidence of why he wanted to commit suicide was never admitted? The jury is human, and were trying Ravi for Tyler's murder, not for the harassment. Of course Ravi's lawyer's screwed up.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 19 Mar 2012 00:31

Shiv wrote:Completely OT and I may be wrong...... desi parents in America so keen on making their kids do medicine? Why are more desi kids not doing law? I would give pisko explanations easily but let me hear what others have to say.

Shiv I don't know the exact statistics, but IMO things are not so binary. In my (extended) family and friends I do see lawyers, journalists and other occupations among desi kids...

FWIW, NYtimes blog starts with..

..I suppose it was inevitable. These days South Asian faces are prevalent in every arena of all-American life — doctors, lawyers, actors, designers, politicians, rappers, activists, socialites, Little Leaguers, Girl Scouts. But now, thanks to former Rutgers student Dharun Ravi, it appears we have assumed a new mantle....

Prasobh.. thanks for the post and links.. New Yorker piece (link does give lot of important details.

ranjbe · Post by **ranjbe** » 19 Mar 2012 00:33

gakakkad wrote:
sanjaykumar wrote:Well it could be that as a people who literally worship money, Indians will settle for being physicians. After all one need not struggle with grants, peer review, leading edge developments, or much intellectual application as a physician.

It is easy and lucrative to be a mediocre medico but difficult to be a journeyman researcher.

yeah..yeah.. even a barbers job is tougher than that of a medico ...we just need to drive around a porsche in a white lab coat , and go door to door collecting cash..

As someone who had to pay for part of my son's medical education in the US, you are 22 when you get your bachelor's degree, 26 when you get your MD, and you are in your early 30's (our Indian kids like to get specializations in the more lucrative specialities) after your residencies and fellowships. and you have accumulated a debt of between 100,000 to 300,000 dollars (depending on maa/baap support and scholarships). It takes a few years to just pay off your debt, at which time you are in your late 30's.
It is a hard road, much longer than your Ph.D.
Indian FMG's in my time did not have this debt burden when they started practicing.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 19 Mar 2012 00:36

Did Ravi's well wishers taken by the press about going back to India is worse than taking chances with a "superior justice system" due to suit-boot syndrome of the enlightened fair skinned people.
It surely is not a death sentence or something akin to sending one to adaman islands during earlier times.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 19 Mar 2012 00:42

shiv wrote:Completely OT and I may be wrong. Why the pluck are desi parents in America so keen on making their kids do medicine? Why are more desi kids not doing law? I would give pisko explanations easily but let me hear what others have to say.

Shiv ji

No need to look for convoluted psikological arguments. It is all comes down to "khota sikka" (as Raja Bose ji wont to say).

Starting salaries for Law are very low compared to Engineering (EEs - both Power and ECE) and Chemical (Nuclear) are top paying right out of the gate. For medicine pay is very good after the initial rigmarole, but kids come in with a huge amount of debt, so it is a toss-up between Engg. and med. Even MBAs make lower than starting engg. salaries.

Regards

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 19 Mar 2012 00:47

darshhan wrote: The truth is that today in America anyone can be arrested at any point of time and have his life destroyed.So much for freedom and human rights.

A pithy quote from Benjamin Franklin

"No man's life, liberty or fortune is safe while our legislature is in session."

Probably true in lots of democracies including India.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Mar 2012 00:54

Shiv, My older is a lawyer. One of the youngest.
The younger one is on pre-med path.

All said and done pre-med gives a very good education if one isnt into engineering.

Both of them didn't want to follow engineering.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 19 Mar 2012 00:55

---
post deleted as one of the reports above says he is citizen of India.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 19 Mar 2012 00:57

shiv wrote:Indians took exactly the opposite route where physicians were not paid much but were greatly respected and never blamed for poor results.

This seems a little counter-intuitive. I see almost all the doctors in India raking in moola.

Regards

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 19 Mar 2012 00:58

SA:
Both Ravi's parents and Ravi are PRs. His younger sibling is a Citizen. I know many NRIs who for whatever reason do not accept US citizenship. Some of it had to do with the difficulty in managing affairs in India but that is no longer true; other had to do with the emotional attachment to the India passport.

That New Yorker article is a must read.

==========================

In general the US justice system while quick has a lot of holes in it. It all depends on the whims of the local prosecutor and their agenda. This was a case where every politician or activist or TV personality took up the mantle and ran with it; it would have been hard for the prosecutor to not throw the book. I am still shocked to see to see that he did not take the plea deal, especially since it contained a recommendation of not to deport (he still could be but unlikely to). Shows how disconnected desis can be with the pulse of the public. That Chinese girl was smart. If anything she was the one who held a viewing party when a few of her friends came and she restarted the webcam after Ravi had left. She took her plea and never looked back.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 19 Mar 2012 01:09

VikramS wrote:SA:
Both Ravi's parents and Ravi are PRs. His younger sibling is a Citizen. I know many NRIs who for whatever reason do not accept US citizenship. Some of it had to do with the difficulty in managing affairs in India but that is no longer true; other had to do with the emotional attachment to the India passport.

I came across a stat of 200K desis with LPR status who haven't opted citizenship out of what we have a total of 3M - that ~7%. I have been searching for the link for that stat ever since but haven't got my hands onto.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 19 Mar 2012 01:12

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/new_j ... _roll.html

"He rolled the dice," said Annemarie P. McAvoy, an adjunct professor at Fordham Law School.

"It's an unfortunate reality of the system: You hope your day in court brings you what you perceive as justice, but it doesn't always happen."

"The jury appeared to find that Ravi's intentions were not out of hatred or bias," McAvoy said. "But the jurors believed Tyler Clementi perceived them as such. . . . It's an outrageous standard."

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 19 Mar 2012 01:56

From the New Yorker article

At one point during his exchanges with Tam that weekend, Ravi wrote, “Dude I hate poor people.”

That was an unkind cut - but other things he said seem to point to not being hateful towards gays.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 19 Mar 2012 02:14

Wonder if Santorum will get elected because of this case. It is doing a good job of polarizing the electorate.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 19 Mar 2012 03:40

for those of you singing glories of the US "system", the guy who went on the rampage in Afghanistan is getting huge positive coverage. his friends have been invited to tv shows to show how he could have never done this. all in all, it will come out that it was a case of the soldier tragically "snapping" and "going off". he will be put in jail for 5 years, at most, with intensive psych help for "recovery". even the 5 years is doubtful for me.

in the end, folks, do not be surprised if Dharun Ravi serves more time, by multiples, than the guy who killed 16 unarmed civilians, including children, in cold blood.

that is the "greatness" and "fairness" of the US justice system for you.

lakshmikanth · Post by **lakshmikanth** » 19 Mar 2012 03:51

I agree with the general assessment that not taking the plea deal was a BIG mistake. He would be a felon for life, and might not get to be a citizen, but it was a much better deal than what he got from the jury. What IS reality and what the jury perceives as reality maybe completely different things.
Here is a classic example of a man most likely wrongfully executed because the jury (and the media) believed that he was responsible for arson that killed his three (or two) kids. The fire was a due to short circuit. But the man was convicted by the media mob influenced Jury and also put to death. (race did not count in this matter because he was white).

My engineering prof who is a big shot in his field (who also has a law degree) used to tell us that once a patent lawsuit goes to jury trial, its a crapshoot and companies do all they can to try and arbitrate it out of court. Because the jury knows jack**** about technology. The same is true with most of these kind of cases. It needs careful understanding of the situations that led to what happened, and it would need highly qualified jurors who are unbiased.

In this case, the sensationalism in the case, along with racial bias would almost make this a sealed shut case with no escape outside. People under-estimate the HUGE *implicit* racial bias of the majority folks in the US. Majority of the whites are proven to be implicit racist, i.e. they have a hard time accepting that people of non-white color are people who could be normal, and good, and as such should be given a second chance. For example: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm? ... id=1633071 .

The society in the US is deeply racist, to the extent that almost every gora admi has an artificial sense of "one-ness" with every other gora, and anyone non gora is not welcome. It is almost like a pervasive mental disease. A few of them like Tim Wise have gotten past it, but given that most of the Gora media is also biased the same way the entire gora society is a little bit mental... (no different from the pakis, and I suspect that this single fact would be a major cause of the end of western dominated world in the future). Sadly many desis who also grew up watching the world through western media (or what I call white-eyes) believe that they are in this club until they hit something like what Ravi hit and then the realization occurs that we browns are in a different club... but by then its too late.

I think the lawyer would have made that clear to Ravi's side. Yet I fail to understand why they did not decide to go with it. I think it was not bad legal advice, but Ravi himself deciding not to take it. The plea deal was a no brainer and any sane person lawyer or not would ask him to consider it.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 19 Mar 2012 04:01

devesh wrote:for those of you singing glories of the US "system", the guy who went on the rampage in Afghanistan is getting huge positive coverage. his friends have been invited to tv shows to show how he could have never done this. all in all, it will come out that it was a case of the soldier tragically "snapping" and "going off". he will be put in jail for 5 years, at most, with intensive psych help for "recovery". even the 5 years is doubtful for me.

in the end, folks, do not be surprised if Dharun Ravi serves more time, by multiples, than the guy who killed 16 unarmed civilians, including children, in cold blood.

that is the "greatness" and "fairness" of the US justice system for you.

Man, you took the words out of my mouth. I was going to compare this Ravi case with that army thug who went on the rampage. The most disgusting spectacle was not only was there any remorse, no sense of shame, no sense of guilt, no sense of right and wrong, no human rights, none of then, instead majority of the coverage was as you state above. And what made me puke was true to US media, this horrible mass murder turned into another democrats Vs republicans, "liberals" Vs "conservatives" circus. Faux nooge led the brigade with this line, namely "liberal" media is not blaming Obama for this attack while the same "liberal" media was blaming Bush for Abu Garib. This is the level of discourse.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 19 Mar 2012 05:39

Oh, there are many examples:
1) a black guy gets 25years+ and is released after serving all the time for stealing a TV.
2) another homeless (black) guy is released after serving 13 years for stealing food from a church.

One in three black males face criminal justice system on a sustained basis.

Well, is there a surprise to find that desis are SDREs first and foremost and it comes as a shock because their bubble gets pricked once in a while and is exposed to reality.

Now that an example is made out, and moral high ground has been attained by theatrics and transfer of guilt is complete, there can and will be clamor for tolerance and mercy from the moral high ground.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 19 Mar 2012 06:13

from new yorker article - it is amazing what all details and irrelevent stuff goes published in the name of reporting:

Ravi was visibly anxious when the judge addressed him. Last May, Berman reminded him, he had rejected a plea offer made by McClure. “You are presumed innocent,” he said. “But if you are found guilty, the exposure”—the sentencing potential—“is significant.” For the charge of bias intimidation alone, the judge would be expected to sentence Ravi to between five and ten years. If Ravi accepted the plea offer, he would serve no more than five years.

If he accepted the plea offer, although the upper limit was fixed to "no more than 5 years." but a *certain* jail term. The defendents probably believed that their lawyers will get them a better verdict and/or they probably misunderstood the scope of the case and/or naively believed in the worlds greatest/bestest/fairest society ever existed the face of earth.

On the positive side this case leaves a freshest example of the reality of the system and how folks should ensure they steer clear of a few things. I also hope this case provides needed encouragement to all the closet /wannabe and aspiring hijadas among the majority of the society to come out in the open and make it fashionable trend in this society - that will do a whole lot good to the world.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 19 Mar 2012 06:24

SA garu,
please check the second plea deal that was offered which didn't include any prison time.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Mar 2012 06:27

I tell all those who want to work on Wall Street that they should get citizenship at the earliest for any lafada they get pinned with the 'crime' and sent back.

What I don't understand is crimes are of two levels:

misdemeanor and felony

The former is a lesser offense but you cant get a plea bargain to expunge the record.

For felony the plea bargain would involve some service, restitution, and open remorse and expunging the record.
What kind of a plea bargain gives five years prison! I think the lawyer was also not that good.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Mar 2012 06:29

matrimc wrote:
shiv wrote:Indians took exactly the opposite route where physicians were not paid much but were greatly respected and never blamed for poor results.
This seems a little counter-intuitive. I see almost all the doctors in India raking in moola.

Regards

OT for this thread. It's a long story but you don't see the docs who are not making loadsa moolah. They are there.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 19 Mar 2012 06:41

JwalaMukhi wrote:SA garu,
please check the second plea deal that was offered which didn't include any prison time.

Yes..I didn't completely read the article

A second offer was made in December: no jail time, an effort to protect him against deportation, and six hundred hours of community service. This, too, was rejected. “You want to know why?” Steven Altman, Ravi’s lawyer, said to reporters, outside the courthouse, on December 9th. “Simple answer, simple principle of law, simple principle of life: he’s innocent.” Ravi’s trial, starting a week before his twentieth birthday, is expected to last a month.

Hmm...poor folks were advised by MUTU types ignoring certain realities.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 19 Mar 2012 06:50

Absolutely, SA garu.
Somehow, poor folks were advised that struting with suit-boot in an environ that is filled with armanis would deliver fairness than returning to desh.
Probably, somehow they were convinced that returning to desh was worse option than gambling on the good will of the suit-boot environment.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Mar 2012 09:42

Folks pardon me for veering off current hot topix, but I do get these odd, "distantly related" thoughts that I would like to bounce off here and there is no single thread for them.

Let me start with a "general assumption". The general assumption is that if you have a society with a particular set of rules, a particular "pecking order" that has been built up over how do you deal with "dissidents" and those who think or feel differently?

One solution would be to suppress and kill everyone who does not conform. This is what is called "conservatism" or worse "bigotry" and "fundamentalism".

Is there a different solution that you can apply so that you can maintain the pecking order of society and yet accommodate the differences in opinion and not stand accused of "fundamentalism"? I must point out here that if you are among the ruling elite of that society you might not want to be so liberal that you allow all and sundry to have his way and see your own cosy society destroyed.

Controlled liberalism is one method that seems to be used in the USA. In controlled liberalism, laws are laid down to make everyone feel equal. And these laws are so liberal that all sorts of kooks, zanies and freaks are also given "rights". If you can break up society into multiple interest groups, often diametrically opposed to each other and give everyone "equal rights" you have all these freaks fighting for their rights and thanking the system for all the rights they get. But it also allows a "silent majority" to have its way without being accused of following a particular narrow agenda.

In the US, immigrants, coloured people, homosexuals, religious minorities, other interest groups are all given rights and are told that your rights are "enshrined in the constitution". The first feedback an immigrant to America throws at his family is praise for the "bill of Rights" and "the First Amendment" blah blah blah.

One way to regulate and control a society is, paradoxically, is to allow everyone some space. When you make everyone in society step aside "jut a bit" to accommodate what is unusual or a minority practice, the main thrust of actions of the of the majority are not questioned at all. This is how the US is able to advertise itself as the home of the free and yet follow policies that hardly represent freedom but still have everyone praising the US as the "Home of Freedom". A society (like an Islamic society) that openly allows only the majority rights to go though is criticized as "illiberal", or conservative attracting adverse attention to the majority practice. But majority practices and habits can be covered up and hidden under a veneer of "great freedoms" being given to every kook under the sun. You are a minority and you are free, so no need to complain about the majority.

RajeshG · Post by **RajeshG** » 19 Mar 2012 09:46

To me the most interesting thing is to observe the gay leadership in US. I saw this video showing this guy Goldstein, a gay leader. His body language was extremely ruthless. Until yesterday gays were 'different' - you could spit on them and laugh about it. Now gays are part of the crowd - they will spit on you and crush you if you take panga with them. Be part of the crowd.... or else !!!! Being-Different is simply not acceptable. Homogeneity as Vaidyanathanji very astutely observed is the only acceptable way. Hallelujah !

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/1 ... 55722.html

A longtime gay rights activist in New York, Bill Dobbs, also was troubled by the case.

"As hate crime prosecutions mount, the problems with these laws are becoming more obvious ... how they compromise cherished constitutional principles," Dobbs said. "Now a person gets tried not just for misdeeds, but for who they are, what they believe, what their character is."

..snip..

Some conservative legal groups campaigned vigorously against the Matthew Shepard Act, dubbing it a "thought crimes" bill that would potentially criminalize anti-gay speech as well as anti-gay violence.

"These laws serve only one purpose – they criminalize thoughts and beliefs that are not considered politically correct," said Erik Stanley, senior legal counsel with the Alliance Defense Fund.

"There's a clash and a conflict – I don't know that it's here yet, but it's coming – with freedom of expression and freedom of religion," Stanley said.

Jacobs, the NYU professor, has depicted hate crime laws as unnecessary and counterproductive, albeit popular among certain politicians.

"It's one thing to pass them, and everyone is proud to say they're opposed to hate and bigotry," he said. "Yet occasionally these laws are used in cases like this (the Ravi trial)... What he did was immature, stupid, wrong, but to make this a poster case for hate crimes shows the weakness, the whole misapplication of the idea."

lakshmikanth · Post by **lakshmikanth** » 19 Mar 2012 10:36

^^^ shiv saar,

That description is pretty accurate, but its more like this: Lets say you were put next to a big open sewage by a bunch of aliens who looked just like humans, you felt bad but had no choice than to "live with it", you notice that it "stinks" it becomes a chronic stressor and after a few years you revolt against the aliens. Then they put you next to the gutter and when you complain they say: Okay, we gave you a better place than being next to the sewage now what are you complaining about

.

No one of their people would now believe you when you say hey, I am living next to a gutter. It is just like the disconnect the Indian Macaulayized elites have with the real Indian population. In effect, the US has a large, permanent caste system. Permanent because of the color of the skin. In India we can atleast hope to get rid of the castes as we have them now, because there is no obvious differentiator between one group vs the other. We coloreds will never be equal to the whites, for that the US needs to break. I guess I wont be around when that happens, but it would be a spectacle to watch!

I was really surprised to learn that in the first rebellion of indentured laborers, the whites and the blacks were united in their revolt against the white elites. It is because of this that "blacks are different and to be hated" belief system propped up by the white elites to divide these folks, its divide and rule.

Once the slaves were freed (because of economics and not the "Bill of Rights"

), they still had to keep the division going, so they invented Jim Crow Laws (an extremely horrible era of supression) and lynchings of any black (or colored person) who was merely suspected to do anything wrong. (That still continues in the legal system).

Once the black people started revolting again, they gave them "civil rights", but they never did anything to unwind the psychological damage it had done to the divided population. Most of the black people end up going through PTSD, and untreated PTSD gets passed on from generation to generation. It is remarkably similiar to a colonized population. Indians have a way out because they are not colonized that much any more. American people are still divided, much more than Indians. And the generation biases that black people are inferior and fundamentally violent are still perpetuated everywhere, in the media and in rearing children.

This causes two versions of mental illness, the black version: You can look at Post Traumatic Slavery Syndrome for an example of this. And the white version: Denial/Cognitive Bias. The US complaining about India's caste system is almost like Nero fiddling with his violin when his own backyard is burning. Or a BIG BLACK kettle calling a slightly browned pot BLACK

Being a WASP makes you fit right in without needing to notice any of this, because you dont get impacted with the issues and you can be in Denial. Most blacks still are heavily discriminated against, and when they complain the WASP reminds them that hey "they were once slaves, we freed you, whats your problem boss", or stuff like "Hey, why are you complaining about this to me, my generation is not responsible for what our forefathers did

".

The mistake Indians make is that they see the world through the WASP lens, because that is what the predominant media of the world (and the US) is. Also the racism against Indians is a does not occur that much because we dont occupy as much space in the US as much as the Blacks do. So being an Indian or a PIO, its an easy trap to fall into to think that the WASP think that you are one of them and they would be fair. Unfortunately this is far from the truth, and this has been my bitter lesson in the last 1 year

. I am glad that I figured it out after 7 years here, some folks never figure it out, until they have gotten hit badly, like Dharun's family. In a way, I feel for them. Just too bad.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 19 Mar 2012 10:45

There are plenty of Indian origin people in US jails serving sentences disproportionate to their crimes. We can put a whole list down. The sooner the Indians in western countries take their blinkers off and unite, the better. They need to be part of a community that receives coaching on the system and it's issues

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Mar 2012 10:53

Jarita wrote:There are plenty of Indian origin people in US jails serving sentences disproportionate to their crimes. We can put a whole list down. The sooner the Indians in western countries take their blinkers off and unite, the better. They need to be part of a community that receives coaching on the system and it's issues

Unfortunately the support system to do this needs to arise in India (IMHO) and Indians in India are Macaulayised dhimmis who do exactly as Lakshmikanth said - i.e see the world through the WASP lens. It's not the people who emigrate to US who start doing that. The seeds are put into Indians right here in India. I have the germs of more thoughts but I will put them in that damn thread.