India-US Strategic News and Discussion

[gakakkad]

There are plenty of Indian origin people in US jails serving sentences disproportionate to their crimes. We can put a whole list down. The sooner the Indians in western countries take their blinkers off and unite, the better. They need to be part of a community that receives coaching on the system and it's issues

the biggest problem is that PIOs are not supported by fellow PIOs . Most Indians are so indoctrinated to umrikah , that they actually support all the injustice . Jail for Indians must be tough . its far more a social stigma for indians than for americans . In the dharun case , the chinese girls was let off softly . the guy dharun was somewhat on the dimmer side, but surely not the reason to put him in for 10 years .in fact he has been punished quite badly already. universities wont accept him. decent women won't marry him . decent jobs would be hard to come. that in my opinion is as bad as life imprisonment.. my umrikanised ,"conserative"cudjinns are already supporting the possible sentence . I remind them , of the origin of their mitochondrial dna. .

The best way out of this is reversal of immigration. If opportunities come up in India rapidly enough , we ll not have too many people wanting to emigrate. Than the trend will be reversed soon enough . the american conservatives are not going to get any smarter , or any more tolerant. I say , let them get dumber .and less tolerant. if 65-70% of the population turns out to be the white supremacist type , umrikah will stop being the cradle of innovation . it ll be more like saudi arabia ..

[member_23061]

Firstly, all readers please note that the sentence HAS NOT been pronounced. This breast beating without facts is tiresome. It is ASSUMED he will be deported without having to face a jail term back in the US. As some said, not the end of the world, pretty harsh but then again this happens all the time.

All this hue and cry about the American justice system is not relevant to this case. It only muddies things up, just like how Italians back in their land must be using facts and figures to prove how backward the Indian system is. I am sure no one in this forum would like clemency in their case, would they? That they were innocent soldiers who unfortunately mistook SDRE Indians to be pirates?

[Gus]

It needs careful understanding of the situations that led to what happened, and it would need highly qualified jurors who are unbiased.

That's why during jury selection, they avoid all sciences and engg people, as they are seen to be more on logic and less on emotion and hence less manipulable.

[member_23061]

lol, that again is not correct. You are talking about scientific jury selection which is predominantly used in a civil litigation scenario. [If you are talking about choosing a jury which is tailored for your case]

I think this was just a randomized jury since it has a possible criminal sentence associated with it. This is a good article about how the jury system works.

Salient points from the above article:

Advantages of a jury system
1. As there are many persons from different backgrounds, any individual prejudices are likely to cancel out.
2. Juries represent the common public and therefore are more likely to judge in line with generally accepted values of the society.
3. Discussions among juries are likely to lead to more thorough consideration of all aspects of the case.
4. It is more difficult to corrupt 12 jurors though than one (or three) judge(s).

Disadvantages of a jury system
1. The jury members are with a few exceptions not knowledgeable about the law and are unfamiliar with court procedure, decisions might be based on emotions rather than rationale arguing.
2. Complex cases tend to require special expertise to judge the case which a jury do not have.
3. The jury members are more susceptible to the rhetoric impressions and mesmerised by the eloquence of a lawyer than a judge, they tend to be over-awed by the whole experience.
4. Since the decision by jury is a group decision, individual members of the jury may not feel that responsible about their duties and therefore neglect it.
5. Group pressure might be influential on the decision.
6. Juries may be swayed by the current prejudices in the society, which are not supported by law.
7. A jury system is very costly.

[Sanku]

Prasobh-ji; what is your nationality? If may ask and place of residence? Why are you so touchy about Amerika and so callous about Indians?

Serious questions.

[member_23061]

I am not being callous about Indians. I just feel the discussion here has taken the wrong tone of rhetoric. See the opening posts when this particular discussion began on page 28. You cannot remove the whiteness and Christianity out of America just like you cannot remove the Hinduism out of India. That is common sense since democracy is still the tyranny of the majority, if viewed from the opposite side. The jury convicted Dharun because it was untenable to do otherwise. And it was certainly not helped by the churlishness of his defense in trying to get a clean slate. They tried to roll a hard six and lost. Chest thumping and wailing is not going to help.

We can engage in semantics but this was a case of salacious gossip gone wrong, i agree it does not deserve a criminal punishment but rather an old school roughing up by Clementi who instead chose to kill himself.

It seems that anything on this forum is now pre judged to be non Indian if you choose to go against the contrary opinion. So much for mob mentality huh? And we blame the Americans for not being tolerant

[ArmenT]

That's why during jury selection, they avoid all sciences and engg people, as they are seen to be more on logic and less on emotion and hence less manipulable.

Try telling that to the judge and lawyers who selected me for jury duty (along with another elderly engineer who worked for Northrop). If anything, they try to avoid selecting police officials, lawyers and people who work in the TV business doing Law N' Order or Ally McBeal type shows. Also, prosecution and defence can only reject a finite number of people each (4-5 or so) during jury selection.

[Sanku]

We can engage in semantics but this was a case of salacious gossip gone wrong, i agree it does not deserve a criminal punishment but rather an old school roughing up by Clementi who instead chose to kill himself.

So you agree that the judgement was wrong, why then complain against those who say the same and label their views.

It seems that anything on this forum is now pre judged to be non Indian if you choose to go against the contrary opinion. So much for mob mentality huh? And we blame the Americans for not being tolerant

It appears like a victim hood mentality I think. You are not being judged anything, I only asked you about your nationality place/of stay because YOU chose to call others opinion as chest beating and ranting and what not.

May I ask why do you think you are being ganged up against when in fact it is you who is going out of the way to mock others opinion?

Also after saying that the verdict was wrong

The jury convicted Dharun because it was untenable to do otherwise

You say the above -- Why was it untenable?

Your opinion seems to be shit happens -- deal with it you black folks, bite the bit, know your place and dont complain.

I am sorry but a lot of us dont think that we should roll over and die because massa says so and accepting guilt when you are not guilty is a smart thing to do.

If he was not guilty of the imagined charges like homophobia (which to the meanest intelligence is clear that he was not) --- why should he accept guilt?

[chetak]

Firstly, all readers please note that the sentence HAS NOT been pronounced. This breast beating without facts is tiresome. It is ASSUMED he will be deported without having to face a jail term back in the US. As some said, not the end of the world, pretty harsh but then again this happens all the time.

All this hue and cry about the American justice system is not relevant to this case. It only muddies things up, just like how Italians back in their land must be using facts and figures to prove how backward the Indian system is. I am sure no one in this forum would like clemency in their case, would they? That they were innocent soldiers who unfortunately mistook SDRE Indians to be pirates?

Whatever happened to that so called Indian maths whiz who threatned bush baba and was jailed for his exertions?

He wasn't deported after trial in the US of A.

[Singha]

you are right.

http://thelinkpaper.ca/?p=13841

it seems they are out to get him. on release after serving term in 2011 may, he was rearrested immediately by immigration for not having a valid visa and so far they have not deported him. his student visa must have expired during the jail term, so why is he still in jail there? why not put him on the next plane out?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikram_Buddhi

[Gus]

Try telling that to the judge and lawyers who selected me for jury duty (along with another elderly engineer who worked for Northrop). If anything, they try to avoid selecting police officials, lawyers and people who work in the TV business doing Law N' Order or Ally McBeal type shows. Also, prosecution and defence can only reject a finite number of people each (4-5 or so) during jury selection.

I got the letter once and I called in and they let me go since I was not resident. My prof told me that she used to routinely get rejected. This was in TX.

[member_23061]

Sanku, please read before you post.

I have for many years felt the gay rights movement deserved its equality. I've argued on their behalf, I've addressed letters to our political leaders... I've written articles at their request in support of legislation. Today, seeing the extreme prejudice with which the gay community treated this case, has shown me the fool I have been.

The gay rights movement is not about equality. It is about forcing everyone to believe, see and feel as they do, with no moral compass, no hint of respecting others interfering in their self gratifying goals.

A few weeks back I publically disagreed with Governor Christy's veto of the Gay Marriage law... Today I see his wisdom.

This movement must be stopped. Here and now. It must be prevented from forcing itself into our university dorm rooms and destroying lives. It must be marginalized and shown for the immoral cult movement that it is. I'm a democrat, but our republican leaders are right, this movement and its headlong rush to elevate itself and its people above the rights of others are pursuing an adjenda of "unnatural" and "detrimental, and ultimately destructive values that are cuastic to the very foundations of civilization."

It's time for the majority to unite and demand legislation to show this movement for what it is and force it back into the shadows. It's time to fight back and protect kids like Dharun Ravi from predators on what is supposed to be a safe college campus. It's time to be heard and to be hard louder than the often maniacal comments on the other side.

As to the defense fund for Dharun, our company would be honored to launch and sponsor a website to promote that cause if his defense team feels it appropriate.

Tyler's death was a tragedy brought about by M.B. Dharun's conviction just adds a second trajedy on top. Yes, the devil is dancing in New Brunswick tonight.... And M.B may be lining up your child as his next target.

Sorry, I call BS when I see it. Support for equal rights is fine as long as they don't affect you? Why dont we apply that to others as well like Pakistani's and Moslem's and other groups of people deemed to be 'ineligible'.

If my roommate was bringing in strange people into a room he shared with me, after having known me for only three weeks, I'd want to know what was going on in there while I was away. Homophobia has nothing to do with it.

Ravi's mistake was that he didn't approach the authorities and insist on a room re-assignment, but instead set up this webcam. Maybe he was afraid to approach the authorities on account of being branded a homophobe, or prejudiced; so he set up the webcam hoping it would gather some evidence (of his belongings being tampered with, perhaps) to bolster his case. It was still an invasion of privacy, but the "hate-crime" label is bogus, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's been applied only because Ravi happens to be of Indian descent.

This post basically said spying is fine if you deem that it is necessary. That is a crime and don't blame the constitution when the court rules otherwise.

"Sorry you raised a messed-up kid."

This is just in poor taste. No indictment for the Indian kid for being a jerk? Or do you feel that being Indian makes him immune to being messed up and immature?

Most of this discussion has been one side wailing that he was crucified for his Indian-ess when it wasn't. White/Black/Brown did not matter in this case how much ever you want it to.

No one wants Dharun to have a harsh punishment. NOT EVEN Clementi's parents [read the links]. He was convicted of bias initimidation because of New Jersey state law. Of course everyone knows he was not a card carrying, zealot nutjob ........ but that does not mean he cannot be guilty of bias intimidation under NJ state law. The fact that its loosely worded enabled the jury to convict him. Heck, I find the posts above to be more homophobic with its irrationality and absurdity. Hate is not something that can be countered by law, its as simple as that. Especially when prejudice is so wide spread, penalizing one guy unfortunate enough to be caught is wrong.

If anything, you should try and oppose even tougher laws being proposed in NJ legislature soon. That is mature and productive. Collective whining is of absolutely no use.

In conclusion, I think that will be be good for him all things considered, if he gets sent back to India. It is the one place he wont have the stigma of this case branded on his forehead. He is a highly intelligent man, I am sure a fresh start is what he needs to move on.

Unless people think its a terrible thing to be here.

[Sanku]

Sanku, please read before you post.

Uh what? Read what before I post? How about you think before you write something in general?

Sorry, I call BS when I see it. Support for equal rights is fine as long as they don't affect you? Why dont we apply that to others as well like Pakistani's and Moslem's and other groups of people deemed to be 'ineligible'.

I am sorry what are you talking about? Where do Pakis enter the discussion?

But indeed this is about equal rights, simple. The Indian has not been treated like a US person. Its quite so simple as that. What else you have in mind.

This is just in poor taste. No indictment for the Indian kid for being a jerk? Or do you feel that being Indian makes him immune to being messed up and immature?

Actually being a jerk has nothing to do with indictment, other wise we may want to put you behind bars as well. Its quite simple.

Did he commit a offence which demands severe censure? We think not, note that his Chinese girl friend was equally "guilty" and she gets off quite easily.

That part is obvious.

Most of this discussion has been one side wailing that he was crucified for his Indian-ess when it wasn't. White/Black/Brown did not matter in this case how much ever you want it to.

Actually yes it is. The chain of logic is as follows

1) The so called crime itself was minor infingement
2) In the same case the Chinese girl was hardly impacted.
3) Whites are clearly treated differently in US, similarly we see obvious discrimination against blacks, so discrimination exists.

but that does not mean he cannot be guilty of bias intimidation under NJ state law. The fact that its loosely worded enabled the jury to convict him.

So basically a crappy law to do as one pleases in hands of some racist americans. Why are you supporting such junk?

If anything, you should try and oppose even tougher laws being proposed in NJ legislature soon. That is mature and productive. Collective whining is of absolutely no use.

Why should we care if NJ cleans up its crappy laws or not. I couldnt care a bit. All I care is Indians are not ganged up against.

I dont care for US, I care for Indians. I dont think you can say the same about yourself.

For me the take away is "US is a country which will always treat Indians like second class citizens" -- that for me as a Indian is sufficient learning. The americans can figure out how they want to clean up their messed up country, why does that take away my right to call crap, crap.

If a American has takeleef with crappy legal system being called crap, they should clean it up quitely instead of WHINING about the right ful calling of crap, crap.

In conclusion, I think that will be be good for him all things considered, if he gets sent back to India. It is the one place he wont have the stigma of this case branded on his forehead. He is a highly intelligent man, I am sure a fresh start is what he needs to move on.

Why should he have any stigma? The US should compensate him for harassment and loss of reputation because they have a crappy legal system which seeks to persecute innocents because US citizens cant get their act together.

Unless people think its a terrible thing to be here.

US will treat INDIANS equally, we demand that US get rid of its crappy laws and treats all ethnicitices equally and thus take enable Indians to deal with it in rightful manner.

No barriers can be put up against any Indian, period.

[gakakkad]

I am not against homosexuality .

There are a few facts which must be taken into account in a case like this.

Homosexuality per se is a risk factor for suicide.. Gay/lesbian are 2-3 times more likely to commit suicide than normally oriented individuals .

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... =pmcentrez

Debate about this issue was heightened in 1989 with the publication of the report of the US Secretary of Health and Human Services, which suggested that gay and lesbian youths are 2 to 3 times more likely to attempt suicide and that they account for up to 30% of the total adolescent suicide rate.

In fact 46% of male homosexuals and 76% of female homosexual adolescents have contemplated suicide , once in there life.

Since that report, studies of gay and lesbian youths indicate that between 48%3 and 76%4 have thought of suicide, while between 29%3 and 42%5 have attempted suicide

Why is not rutgers university made a co-accused in the case ? It was there duty to provide counselling in high risk cases .. Suicide risks are higher in homosexuals .. Why is not preventive counseeling measures in place ?


Its a well known fact , that the deceased and the accused shared the room. So the accused had all the rights in the world to keep the cam on .After all it was his room to..

to be continued...

[CRamS]

Prasobh,

Its only because of the aggressive white-dominated gay lobby and the furious in your face noises they make, that this whole thing became a media circus. And yes, its because this whole gay stuff is white dominated that it receives such a huge international significance. Hilary Clinton has to have some gall lecturing the world about gay rights. Give me break. Her raise s testimony to the rampant discrimination against people of color in US; her main qualification being a blonde woman married at an ex US president that has propelled her to become sec of state jet setting around the world and giving condescending lectures to us "lesser folks". To me, that kind of inequality first needs to be addressed before she pompously talks to the world about respecting gay rights. I mean, there are many out of the mainstream habits, mores, customs, cultural preferences etc. None of them receive the kind of prominence or in your face thrust that western-led gay movement has.

The most effective and humane way to have handled this would have been for the dean of the college or whoever in the administration, to have taken Ravi to task, punished him commensurate for the prank, namely invasion of privacy, and that was that. Ravi and his parents in turn should have shown sensitivity and apologized that gay kids' kith and kin. And the whole issue should have ended thereafter. There was no hate crime, there was no need for all this hype and bluster about the constitution bla bla. The US elites used Ravi as a convenient scape goat to show off all their egalitarian mumbo jumbo.

[Sanku]

To make a matter of double standards in law against a Indian and a white American and portary it like anti-homosexuality is a "you farted technique"

There is no homophobia angle here, folks could be having hetrosexual encounter and that also results in sucide.

The max that Ravi can be accused of is putting a tape of person in public space without consent.

I think if US uniformaly starts charging folks for it, 90% of US (in the twitter and FB era) should be behind bars.

At most this is a case of counseling, but the jerks in US courts made it a criminal matter.

[Sanku]

punished him commensurate for the prank, namely invasion of privacy, and that was that. Ravi and his parents in turn should have shown sensitivity and apologized that gay kids' kith and kin. And the whole issue should have ended thereafter. There was no hate crime, there was no need for all this hype and bluster about the constitution bla bla. The US elites used Ravi as a convenient scape goat to show off all their egalitarian mumbo jumbo.

+1008

[gakakkad]

US is a barbaric society that enjoys insulting people . A huge number of american sitcoms and reality tv are in the business of hurling insults and propagating hate..Gordon Ramsay spits at contestants , and throws away food in the dustbin. A suicide has even been attributed to it. Why is not he accused of hate crime ?

Joseph Cerniglia, the owner of Campania in Fair Lawn, took a death plunge into the Hudson River last week - three years after Ramsay excoriated him on his reality show "Kitchen Nightmares."

When do we see gordon behind bars?

http://www.realityshowsuicides.com/




The Dharun episode is a hate crime all right . but not against homosexuality. It is a hate crime against Indians committed by the state of NJ . I want him acquitted on all charges.

[member_23061]

Sanku, please read before you post.

Uh what? Read what before I post? How about you think before you write something in general?

Obviously the remainder of the post either meant you are unable to comprehend what I wrote or you are unwilling to.

I apologize for trying to inject some logic in the conversation. Please continue the crusade for Truthiness.

[Sanku]

Obviously the remainder of the post either meant you are unable to comprehend what I wrote or you are unwilling to.

I apologize for trying to inject some logic in the conversation. Please continue the crusade for Truthiness.

No this means when you have no arguments other than calling others statement as BS without any logic supporting you -- you will get called out.

Kindly do not call posters who criticize US names, if you love US so much, work quietly to clean up the muck, so that it is hospitable to more Indians in a better manner, you will be doing a service to that country by encouraging them to be open to criticism and be fair, transparent and welcoming.

[praksam]

prabosh,are you Cosmo_R? Your arguments are so similar.

[Sanku]

prabosh,are you Cosmo_R? Your arguments are so similar.

Did Cosmo_R get banned?

[Lalmohan]

Prasobh, not much point continuing the 'discussion' with sanku, whatever happens he will remain right under all circumstances

[Sanku]

Prasobh, not much point continuing the 'discussion' with sanku, whatever happens he will remain right under all circumstances

Lalmohan-ji never a good idea to make things personal you know, but thanks for the vote of confidence.

[praksam]

prabosh,are you Cosmo_R? Your arguments are so similar.

Did Cosmo_R get banned?

No, but the timeline and the similarity in the line of their thought made me ask that question. I have a hunch tho.

[member_23061]

prabosh,are you Cosmo_R? Your arguments are so similar.

No, unfortunately Prasobh is not Cosmo_R. It just happens we happen to have similar viewpoints. Freaky right?

Prasobh, not much point continuing the 'discussion' with sanku, whatever happens he will remain right under all circumstances

Thank you ji, I accept your advice. [BTW big fan of lalchix]

One last thing before I take up my maun vrat, Homosexuality does not pre dispose one to suicide. The higher numbers maybe due to social and environmental causes.

My only request is for everyone not to pursue intolerance due to invalid belief's. They are just as human as you and me and deserve everybit of freedom that we get. Hate never solves anything.

That is all.

[Surya]

guys jumping on prasobh is not going to solve anything

He is mostly trying to keep this a sane discussion just like arment and anand and a few others. either you can choose to understand the complexities behind this or just rail and let this go down the toilet.

prasobh - maybe I missed it - do you have a link to Clementis parent's comments??

[gakakkad]

Prasobh , the link I posted is a journal article. It is from the american journal of public health. Dozens of studies in several countries have conclusively found homosexuality with a higher than normal suicide rate. Homosexuality is listed as a risk factor for suicide in standard textbooks .. Like for instance Kaplan and sadocks textbook of psychiatry ..





In DSM 4 TR it is no longer classified as a disease. but it is definitely classified as a risk factor for suicide .

[Sanku]

guys jumping on prasobh is not going to solve anything

Surya, how is using words like "a bunch of whiners", "mob-mentality", "chest-beating" etc to define a set of views which dont happen to align with his an attempt at sane discussion?

Everyone (including Prasobh) agrees that the judgement was extraordinarily out-of-context. The person is being treated like Hannibal Lector rather than a prank gone wrong incident.

Now, there are two views
1) This is because the unfortunate person was an Indian.
2) This is US, this is how it is deal with it.

Now I think the matter is that both are true, an Indian felt the weight of US system and the US system is flawed. Others have chose (1) or (2), however I (or anyone else) has not chosen to call names to others

Let us look at this beautiful specimen here, his opening salvo (and since then he has added more color in later posts)

Firstly, all readers please note that the sentence HAS NOT been pronounced. This breast beating without facts is tiresome. It is ASSUMED he will be deported without having to face a jail term back in the US. As some said, not the end of the world, pretty harsh but then again this happens all the time.

All this hue and cry about the American justice system is not relevant to this case. It only muddies things up, just like how Italians back in their land must be using facts and figures to prove how backward the Indian system is. I am sure no one in this forum would like clemency in their case, would they? That they were innocent soldiers who unfortunately mistook SDRE Indians to be pirates?

In three sentences he has

1) Called the criticism "breast beating"
2) Equated a murder using automatic weapon on high seas against sleeping fishermen == suicide
3) Equated a college prank of a 18 year old with a deliberate act of violence.
4) Called the opinions "hue and cry"

After coming in spitting in the collective faces of a large group of posters, he now turns around and accuses others of "mob mentality" (his words)

Without getting into "lets-hate-Sanku" mode (which some posters have gone into) tell me Surya, just what about the above post was an attempt to have a "sane" discussion.

I would say that people have been kind to him.

[Lalmohan]

gakakkad - i think the point is that being gay in itself is not a reason to be suicidal - however being gay in a hostile environment may encourage suicidal tendencies. lots of young people also contemplate suicide if they somehow feel they do not somehow 'belong', being gay in a hostile environment must increase those feelings. so it is a risk factor, but i don't see it as being a root cause

[member_23061]

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012 ... ntPage=all

Very good article.

Code: Select all

They didn’t want to discuss the case, beyond saying that they were satisfied with the charges against Ravi. “What we want to see is justice,” Joseph Clementi said. “That doesn’t necessarily mean the punishment has to be harsh.”

I dont have the link but I read that the judge will include the Clementi while deciding the sentence. That could mean a lighter sentence since they supported the plea bargain.

Why is not rutgers university made a co-accused in the case ? It was there duty to provide counselling in high risk cases .. Suicide risks are higher in homosexuals .. Why is not preventive counseeling measures in place ?


Its a well known fact , that the deceased and the accused shared the room. So the accused had all the rights in the world to keep the cam on .After all it was his room to..

Your statement for homosexual suicide rates was to support this statement. Elevated risk does not pre dispose to suicide counseling unless there was any 'warning signs' for suicide such as suicidal thoughts or acts. And the primary risk for all suicides is depression/psychological disorders.

The case got weird for me after I read the above article. Clementi did not exhibit any signs of suicidal tendecies right upto the last hours of his life. [Though his computer had pictures of GB bridge which could be an indication for it being considered at some time] He had wrote to the university to change his room, have a written complaint to the Dean for invasion of privacy, talked to people what to do with Dharun etc. He met Dharun in the evening and then 3 hours later jumped off the bridge [No evidence exists as to what transpired or caused his sudden change except for his Facebook update at the very end] I would theorize that he did suffer from subclinical depression which was triggered into a full blown episode. What triggered that sudden change can never be known [atleast to the court] so its conjecture at best. Conjecture that unfortunately will not show the accused in good light.

All in all, it was very sad case for all the involved.

[Sanku]

Conjecture that unfortunately will not show the accused in good light.

The above is an example of prior bias, my conjecture would be that Clementi was a person with serious stability issues (no doubt in large part due to poor parenting in US) and that he could not handle the situation and DID not wait for the system to take effect for protection.

Why did Clementi feel the need to commit sucide and not wait for the university to help?

Did he not trust the university?
Was he afraid of his parents? (did his parents know about Clementi's sexual orientation? was he worried about their response?)

Questions questions.

[member_23061]

guys jumping on prasobh is not going to solve anything

Surya, how is using words like "a bunch of whiners", "mob-mentality", "chest-beating" etc to define a set of views which dont happen to align with his an attempt at sane discussion?

Everyone (including Prasobh) agrees that the judgement was extraordinarily out-of-context. The person is being treated like Hannibal Lector rather than a prank gone wrong incident.

Now, there are two views
1) This is because the unfortunate person was an Indian.
2) This is US, this is how it is deal with it.

Now I think the matter is that both are true, an Indian felt the weight of US system and the US system is flawed. Others have chose (1) or (2), however I (or anyone else) has not chosen to call names to others

Let us look at this beautiful specimen here, his opening salvo (and since then he has added more color in later posts)

Firstly, all readers please note that the sentence HAS NOT been pronounced. This breast beating without facts is tiresome. It is ASSUMED he will be deported without having to face a jail term back in the US. As some said, not the end of the world, pretty harsh but then again this happens all the time.

All this hue and cry about the American justice system is not relevant to this case. It only muddies things up, just like how Italians back in their land must be using facts and figures to prove how backward the Indian system is. I am sure no one in this forum would like clemency in their case, would they? That they were innocent soldiers who unfortunately mistook SDRE Indians to be pirates?

In three sentences he has

1) Called the criticism "breast beating"
2) Equated a murder using automatic weapon on high seas against sleeping fishermen == suicide
3) Equated a college prank of a 18 year old with a deliberate act of violence.
4) Called the opinions "hue and cry"

After coming in spitting in the collective faces of a large group of posters, he now turns around and accuses others of "mob mentality" (his words)

Without getting into "lets-hate-Sanku" mode (which some posters have gone into) tell me Surya, just what about the above post was an attempt to have a "sane" discussion.

I would say that people have been kind to him.

My question would be very simple, did you read my post about what your esteemed colleagues wrote?

Next, you have clearly not understood my statement. breast beating without facts is related to posts claiming he will be jailed for 5-10 years. The verdict is out but he has not been sentenced. This is fact.

You are twisting what I have stated maliciously. Posters before me said that the Invasion of Privacy charge is bogus because he was keeping an eye on his personal belongings [when his camera was actually turned to the side of Clementi's half] As ludicrous a claim as Italians shooting 'pirates' next to India's coast. Please show me where I have said otherwise.

And who is crying victim now?

/restarting maun vrat

Late edit : Instead of responding to Sanku's argument, I would like to show the Matthew Shepard case. Interesting [and horrifying read]

[gakakkad]

gakakkad - i think the point is that being gay in itself is not a reason to be suicidal - however being gay in a hostile environment may encourage suicidal tendencies. lots of young people also contemplate suicide if they somehow feel they do not somehow 'belong', being gay in a hostile environment must increase those feelings. so it is a risk factor, but i don't see it as being a root cause

in medicine we never use the term "root cause"..

Like for instance , we don't say hyperlipidemia causes atherosclerosis . We say that hyperlipidimic increases the risk of atherosclerosis by 6 times. Likewise it is not the only cause . Other causes are like hypertension , diabetes etc. It can also include environmental factors , like sedentary lifestyle , stress strain etc. As you see , the risk is multifactorial .

Suicide and most other pyschiatric conditions are far more complicated than hyperlipidemia. And they have a multifactorial risk.

Say for instance homosexuality increases the risk of suicides by 2.5-4 times compared to normal population. Other risk factors can include coexistent psychiatric illness like depression . It can also include other environmental factors like joblessness , love failure , or being made fun off . So like hyperlipidemia suicide too is multifactorial..



defence can use this as an argument - Lets say you have an argument with a guy who suffers from some heart disease . The guy gets heated up and develops arrythmias due to sympathetic stimulation and dies . Can you be held responsible for his death ? This legal principle had a fancy name I can't recall ..

[gakakkad]

. Elevated risk does not pre dispose to suicide counseling unless there was any 'warning signs' for suicide such as suicidal thoughts or acts. And the primary risk for all suicides is depression/psychological disorders.

elevated risk and pre disposes means the same ..

[Sanku]

My question would be very simple, did you read my post about what your esteemed colleagues wrote?

Yes I have, that was obvious, I am not sure if you have though

Next, you have clearly not understood my statement. breast beating without facts is related to posts claiming he will be jailed for 5-10 years. The verdict is out but he has not been sentenced. This is fact.

Understanding is a two way street, you have to take the effort to be understood, you could have very well included the context in quotes. Also the choice of words could be better, a simple statement like "let us not worry too much before the event" would be much better than "breast-beating"

You are twisting what I have stated maliciously.

No I am not. Perhaps you were not explicit when you should have been. Not my fault. If you have a specific issue and talked about it, fine. Now the clarification has been given, I accept that, however the choice of language needed not be attacking to others.

/restarting maun vrat

Like Dr Artise's fast? Fast, between breakfast and lunch, lunch and dinner.

[Jarita]

Sanku, please read before you post.

I have for many years felt the gay rights movement deserved its equality. I've argued on their behalf, I've addressed letters to our political leaders... I've written articles at their request in support of legislation. Today, seeing the extreme prejudice with which the gay community treated this case, has shown me the fool I have been.

The gay rights movement is not about equality. It is about forcing everyone to believe, see and feel as they do, with no moral compass, no hint of respecting others interfering in their self gratifying goals.

A few weeks back I publically disagreed with Governor Christy's veto of the Gay Marriage law... Today I see his wisdom.

This movement must be stopped. Here and now. It must be prevented from forcing itself into our university dorm rooms and destroying lives. It must be marginalized and shown for the immoral cult movement that it is. I'm a democrat, but our republican leaders are right, this movement and its headlong rush to elevate itself and its people above the rights of others are pursuing an adjenda of "unnatural" and "detrimental, and ultimately destructive values that are cuastic to the very foundations of civilization."

It's time for the majority to unite and demand legislation to show this movement for what it is and force it back into the shadows. It's time to fight back and protect kids like Dharun Ravi from predators on what is supposed to be a safe college campus. It's time to be heard and to be hard louder than the often maniacal comments on the other side.

As to the defense fund for Dharun, our company would be honored to launch and sponsor a website to promote that cause if his defense team feels it appropriate.

Tyler's death was a tragedy brought about by M.B. Dharun's conviction just adds a second trajedy on top. Yes, the devil is dancing in New Brunswick tonight.... And M.B may be lining up your child as his next target.

Read before you post. That was not my comment but a posters that I picked up. Also don't quote out of context.

[Jarita]

Check out a similar case

United States v. Lori Drew
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United States v. Lori Drew[1] was a criminal case in which Lori Drew was convicted and then subsequently acquitted of violations of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act (CFAA) over the "cyber-bullying" of a 13 year old, Megan Meier.[2] Meier died by suicide as a result of the bullying.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Lori_Drew

[subodh]

gakakkad-jee

The term i think is 'mens rea' - or guilty mind - the act itself doesnt make you guilty unless your mind is also guity - or something like that, i am no lawyer - so may be getting it wrong.

I think this poor Ravi chap got caught up in the meat grinder that is liberal leftist induced laws and politics. A crime is a crime, adding a layer of 'hate crime' on top makes thoughts punishable.

Having said that, I suspect he got bad advice from his lawyers - if he was offered a plea, he should have taken it - intead of rolling the dice.

[Rangudu]

I've been too busy at work and home to follow the Dharun Ravi case in detail, but I spent some time over the weekend looking at it. My sense is that the "Hate Crime" conviction is completely unfair and bogus. Ravi should have been reprimanded for the violation of privacy but the pro-gay circles raised enough hoopla to bootstrap the bogus thought crime challenges.

I do disagree however with those that say Ravi's victimization was due to his race. I bet that if the offender had been a hardcore Evanjihadi White American with known anti-gay views, he would have been punished even harder, even if he were to get support from right wing types. Ravi also seemed to have had poor legal advice.

This seems less about race than about extreme political correctness and pandering to the gay lobby in the US.