Indian Naval Discussion

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Philip
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

What if....? If the US starts stopping tanker traffic transiting from Iran,the sh&t is going to hit the fan.There is no way that India can and must allow our energy supplies from Iran to be disturbed as long as there is no UN mandate for the same.If the US imposes a blockade without UN sanction,it will be the act of a "rogue nation".Secondly,alternative oil supplies can be found,but not Iranian light crude,which will push up our oil bill even higher affecting the economy dramatically,whether the intl. price goes up or not.Lanka is in an acute crisis having about 90% of its oil supplies from Iran and can find no other alternative as its refining capability of other sourced oil is less cost-effective.

The right to navigate the seas for any nation must prevail regardless of whether we like China's face or not.The issues between China and other Asian states relate to sovereignty and territorial disputes and not transiting the SLOCs.If we abandon this universally accepted law,then the US will make merry blockading any state whose face it does not like and we will be gripped with global conflicts.Right now,Asia is the world's economic generator and sabotaging its return to pre-eminence which it had 500 years ago before the arrival of European navies in our waters ,will have to be met with an irresistible force,jointly rather than separately.Either Asia swims together or hangs separately.This does require a turnaround in the attitude of the PRC.What would it prefer,to quote JFK about choosing LBJ as his running mate,"having India in the tent pissing out or outside pissing in?" As mentioned above in another post,unless we possess ICBMs ,the threat of armtwisting will increase.This what China has supposedly told the US about its gunboat diplomacy off the Chinese coast,"we are willing to take millions of casualties in a nuclear exchange,but can you afford to lose even a few cities?" Did not China enforce its rights by forcing down a US P-3 Orion LRMP that was snooping around Hainan island not to long ago? What did the USN do? It tucked its tail between its legs.

The IN must start building up capability to ward off any superpower naval action against it in the IOR primarily mainly because of the issue debated here.As said before,we must use the landmass of India as an unsinkable carrier and equip he IN with LR tactical strike bombers like the TU-22 Backfire for the IN (also serving as strategic bombers in a N-crisis) and SU-34s for the IAF,which it will also find useful in the Himalayan regions.Along with the increased maritime strike aircraft ,a fleet of nuclear boats SSGNs is an absolute.These will give us three-dimensional capability to deal with any enemy carrier task force that enters the IOR,even before it transits the choke points.The augmenting of the ASW LRMP capability with P-8s,legacy aircraft,etc.,must steadily continue.Here are some details of Russian upgrades of the IL-38.Interesting to compare it with IN's IL-38SD upgrades.If India behaves like a mouse it will be treated as one.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htnava ... 20317.aspx
Improved P-3ski Heads North

March 17, 2012: The Russian Navy recently received the first of the upgraded Il-38N maritime reconnaissance aircraft. There have been several upgrades since the Il-38N first entered service eleven years ago. These were major upgrades of an aircraft that had been in service since the 1960s. The latest upgrades enable the aircraft to detect ships within 320 kilometers. There is also a new thermal (heat) sensor, more powerful computers, and increased capability in all sensors.

Existing Il-38Ns can detect surface vessels and aircraft and submarines up to 150 kilometers away. Sensors carried include a synthetic aperture/inverse synthetic aperture radar (for night and fog operations), high-resolution FLIR (forward-looking infrared), LLTV (low light television) camera, ESM (electronic support measures) system, and a MAD (magnetic anomaly detector). The aircraft can carry anti-ship missiles, in addition to torpedoes, bombs, depth charges, and electronic decoys.

The Il-38N is a 63 ton, four engine turboprop aircraft with a crew of ten, endurance of about ten hours, and it can carry nine tons of weapons. The 63 ton American P-3 has very similar characteristics. Russia built 176 Il-38s while the U.S. built over 600 P-3s.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Cain Marko »

Singha wrote:>> All based somewhere deep in the south, available at short notice to swoop on targets anywhere in the IOR or even central asia/SCS. The ability to send 10 backfires packing 30 Brahmos PLUS 40 odd Kh-31s at a single go, at short notice, over huge distances, in any direction, without AAR support

thats the tricky part wrt these old russian gear. looking at the Tu142 which allegedly needs a astonishing hrs of ground service for every 1 hr in the air, the backfire might be no better. the USSR had a lot of them so even with 50% uptime they could launch a good number, with just 5-10 backfires, we'd be hard pressed to send up 3-4 on a day.

Which is precisely why about 2 dozen should be bought - to keep at least half that number up and running at any given point. Buy in triplicate all parts that might see heavy wear and tear. I realize this is a cumbersome and expensive idea, but the options it will provide are worth it imvho.


I am all for Pakda though when it arrives. get 30-40 of them under IN/SFC joint command for anti shipping and n-tipped nirbhay roles. also build atleast 25-30 extra MKIs from IAPO optimized for naval strike role (drop tanks on wing), air launched Klub/KH35 integration and give them to IN in the interim. they can shore up the ramparts until Pakda comes in 2025. the naval jaguars can be retired by then...weak and short legged as they are for any IOR role.

patience and penance brothers. our time will come.

At the very least, 40 MKI and 20 Rafale should be bought plumbed for v.long ranged missions. A sqd of MKI ought to be configured for EW duties equipped with heavy duty jammers ala prowler/growler. Additionally, Wet points should be provided and perhaps even a hump ala Su-35/Mig-29SMT with fuel crammed in wherever possible including in the fins. The ability to act as a refueller should be further augmented on the MKI. There should be an option to task over a dozen MKI with a single Brahmos + 2X Kh-59/31 types to be able to do a round trip of 6000+km with 1 topup in a safe location. IOWs, we are basically looking at an MKI brought to Su-34 standards - 12500kg internal fuel + ~7500kg in EFT + ~ 6000kg payload.

Definitely no Backfire this, but it'll do as an interim measure I s'pose. This need is somewhat urgent imho and an order of another 40 suitably upgraded in lieu of nada su-35 for PRC should be setup
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by andy B »

Abduls,

Recent article on IN Air Arm - Wings of Gold in AFM

http://www.mediafire.com/?6sadpb5dlpkp2sk
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Aditya G »

andy B wrote:Abduls,

Recent article on IN Air Arm - Wings of Gold in AFM

http://www.mediafire.com/?6sadpb5dlpkp2sk
Thanks for the scan. Much has been written about the inadequacy of ALH Dhruv for our Navy. However, I can't help thinking that we should have acquired more for:

1. INAS 321 Angels - replace Chetak at air stations.
2. INAS 350 Saras - replace UH-3 Sea King. Operate from INS Jalashwa
3. MCF Zappers East - augment Sea King Mk42C. Upgrade flight to full special operations squadron.
4. MCF Zappers West - augment Sea King Mk42C + ex-Jalashwa UH-3s. Upgrade flight to full special operations squadron.

It appears to me that Navy's reluctance on ALH has also prevented ICG from inducting more ... where the operational demands from the design (folding rotors & weight) should be relaxed.

I also find delay in inducting AJT Hawk a bit puzzling. Possibly this aircraft can be upgraded to operate from CATOBAR carriers in future?
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by vic »

Let me explain a little problemo with Indian Tu-142s. They are supposed to fly around 500 hrs in one year but are only able to manage on average ~150 hrs. This mean in any hot situation we might find ourselves with pants down. A commercial aircraft like 737 can fly around 2000 hrs in a year and if P-8I can manage even 5-600 hrs per annum then it would mean that availibility of P-8 is 3-4 times more than Tu-142s.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

There is no point in acquiring aircraft (TU-142s,IL-38s,P-8s,Backfires,whatever) if a few of them are not available in a crisis.One understands that complex aircraft,esp. legacy CW types, need large amounts of time for maintenance,etc.However,all cannot be unavailable all the time! If we have 8 bears,at least 3-4 should be available .Therefore sufficient numbers of aircraft with several years of essential spares are required,which seems to be the acquisition std. of the forces.Secondly,as far as Russian eqpt. is concerned,we have had in recent times,special support cos. in India set up meant to provide the required support to the forces and alleviate the spares problem faced after the collapse of the USSR.The fact is that shorter ranged aircraft cannot fit the bill.A Rafale cannot make it to S.Africa and back which a Bear can without refuelling.Endurance on station is another factor when it comes to ASW ops.P-8s are fine for std. maritime ops,but lack enough range and payload which a Bear/Backfire possess.

The IN and IAF too need a long range strategic bomber for trans-continental operations.The sooner we look for a suitable type the better.With stand-off PGMs,upgraded Backfires will too as dozens are available with Russia.Blackjacks would be better,but more expensive and I doubt if Russia has enough to sell some to India.We could acquire these aircraft specifically/technically for the maritime role,as there may be problems obtaining a strategic bomber (Blackjack) given intl. non-prolif. treaty obligations.

Here is a splendid account of the Falklands War,with some pithy comments about British defence from R.Adm Sandy Woodward,the architect of the victorious campaign.A must read .Posted in the Intl.navies link.

Falkland Islands: Britain 'would lose' if Argentina decides to invade now
Rear-Admiral Sir John Forster Woodward - who in 1982 gave the order to sink the General Belgrano - regrets not making more of how the Falklands war was won.
If you are a naval professional, then a Navy without an aircraft carrier and the right aircraft on board is comparable to the Swiss navy.”

That’s damning. Switzerland, of course, doesn’t have a navy. Britain will not have a working aircraft carrier until the new HMS Queen Elizabeth comes into service in 2020, and even then it may not have any jets to carry. The new Joint Strike Fighter, which was due to replace the scrapped Sea Harriers, has been delayed by a design flaw which makes it unable to land on deck. Without an aircraft carrier, Woodward believes the current Navy is also fundamentally flawed.

“What’s a navy for? Expeditionary force, which means going a long way from home. If you can’t rely on neighbouring countries to make a base on land sufficiently close to where you want to be, then you have to go by sea and take your air power with you. We simply can’t do that now. The best we can do for an expeditionary force is a day trip to France.”
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Austin »

vic wrote:Let me explain a little problemo with Indian Tu-142s. They are supposed to fly around 500 hrs in one year but are only able to manage on average ~150 hrs.
vic , what is the source of ~ 150 hours of uptime of Tu-142M ?
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by member_19648 »

Wasn't INS Kolkata supposed to be commissioned on March 2012? Is there any news on her?
Philip
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

Important lessons for our ambitious carrier plans,study the British mistakes.
Government plans U-turn on aircraft carriers as catapult costs spiral

Defence secretary wants to switch back to version of Joint Strike Fighter ministers dismissed as more costly and less effective

Nick Hopkins
guardian.co.uk, Sunday 18 March 2012

Philip Hammond, the defence secretary, has recommended a U-turn on one of the most controversial proposals of the cost-cutting armed forces reforms, the Guardian has learned.

David Cameron will decide this week whether to agree to an embarrassing about-face involving the Royal Navy's over-budget aircraft carriers, which are under construction.

In the strategic defence and security review (SDSR), the prime minister insisted the carriers would have to be converted to include "cats and traps" to allow a version of the new Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) to be catapulted from the decks and caught by arrestor wires on landing. But the Guardian has been told the cost of the modification has spiralled out of control, to between £1.9 and £2bn.

With the "carrier variant" version of the JSF also beset by technical problems, the MoD has concluded the carrier programme could be delayed by at least another seven years – to 2027 – unless it abandons the plan.

Though he knows the U-turn will be humiliating for the coalition, Cameron has been told the best option is to switch back to another version of the JSF, which was ruled out in the review because it was likely to cost more and do less.

Having mocked Labour for earlier taking the "wrong" decision, the government will be taunted by the shadow cabinet if Cameron accepts the judgment of military chiefs that the MoD's losses should be cut now before costs balloon again.

"There will be short-term pain for the government, but in the long run, it is by far the best option," said a Whitehall source. "Adapting the carriers is skewing the defence budget out of shape, and there is every likelihood the costs will continue to rise. It has to be Cameron's decision, but the military advice is clear."

Hammond's sensitivity on the subject is acute; he has demanded a vow of silence from all senior MoD civil servants, who have been told not to speak to the media about any military equipment programmes without his authority before the budget for next year is approved.

A U-turn would be humiliating for Cameron and his deputy, Nick Clegg, who both signed off the SDSR. They were withering about Labour's decision to commit to the F-35B version of the JSF, an aircraft that could take off and land in a similar way to a Harrier jump jet.

Instead, they argued for the F-35C, saying it was the better aircraft and equipping the carriers with the accompanying catapults would make it possible for French and American aircraft to land on them too.

"The last government committed to carriers that would have been unable to work properly with our closest military allies," the document said.

"It will take time to rectify this error but we are determined to do so. We will fit a catapult to the operational carrier to enable it to fly a version of the JSF with a longer range and able to carry more weapons. Crucially, that will allow our carrier to operate in tandem with the US and French navies."

The SDSR also claimed the carrier version of the JSF would be cheaper in the long run, reducing "through-life costs by around 25%".

However, the National Audit Office expressed deep concern about the cost of fitting catapults. This expense contributed to the government's decision to deploy only one of the two carriers being built, with the second being put at "extended readiness" – in effect, mothballed.

If Downing Street sanctions the U-turn, it may try to blame the former defence secretary, Liam Fox, who championed the decision in the SDSR in September 2010.

The MoD hopes the savings from abandoning catapults could allow the second Queen Elizabeth class carrier to be put to proper use after all, sources said. However, that is not without its problems. One of the two is being fitted to take helicopters.

Jim Murphy, Labour's shadow defence secretary, said the government appeared to be in disarray. "This would be one of the biggest public procurement messes for many decades. David Cameron has potentially wasted more than a year and squandered millions. A combination of prime ministerial hubris and MoD incompetence has led to British military power being degraded."

Admiral Lord West, a former first sea lord and security minister, said: "I am slightly amazed at the costs of adapting the carriers, but if they are of that order then you can understand why they are considering this change.

"You have to make the best of a bad job. The navy wanted the capability of the carrier version of the JSF, but the other version is still a good aircraft. And if the navy gets a second carrier operational, then some good will have come of it."

An MoD spokesman said no decisions had been taken.

"We are currently finalising the 2012-13 budget and balancing the equipment plan. As part of this process we are reviewing all programmes, including elements of the carrier strike programme, to validate costs and ensure risks are properly managed. The defence secretary expects to announce the outcome of this process to parliament before Easter."

A senior defence source added: "Jim Murphy's comments are irresponsible and opportunist. It ill behoves him to talk about mismanagement of projects. Labour left a carrier programme that had ballooned in costs and made it more expensive to cancel the programme than to go ahead with it."
PS:The simplest way out of the morass is to cancel the JSF and buy French naval Rafales,esp. if the UK and the French are to co-operate the carriers to save costs! But,"Perfidious Albion" just cannot stomach froggie food or anything French,"rosbif" preferring even the "Junk Strike Fighter" from the US!
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by chetak »

Aditya G wrote: It appears to me that Navy's reluctance on ALH has also prevented ICG from inducting more ... where the operational demands from the design (folding rotors & weight) should be relaxed.
The ICG has equally stringent requirements for folding rotors. :)
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by srai »

chetak wrote:
Aditya G wrote: It appears to me that Navy's reluctance on ALH has also prevented ICG from inducting more ... where the operational demands from the design (folding rotors & weight) should be relaxed.
The ICG has equally stringent requirements for folding rotors. :)
Is HAL working on fixing the folding rotors issue? If it can fix that issue, then there is a potential order for at least 60+ choppers for both the IN and CG.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

if the UK and France run a common pool of carriers, the UK could skip the fighters altogether and just contribute the ASW and logistic helicopters via Merlin. the French rafale airwings can run the show. French E2 can provide cover supplemented by sea king system.

all it needs is for the UK carrier to install catapults, same one the french are doing on theirs. the underlying basic design of the ship is the same.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Kersi D »

Singha wrote:if the UK and France run a common pool of carriers, the UK could skip the fighters altogether and just contribute the ASW and logistic helicopters via Merlin. the French rafale airwings can run the show. French E2 can provide cover supplemented by sea king system.

all it needs is for the UK carrier to install catapults, same one the french are doing on theirs. the underlying basic design of the ship is the same.
Me thinks that both English & French are too egoistic to join hands like this !
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by suryag »

why does UK need carriers in the first place? It is better they spend their monies on more immediate problems. The UK should cut their defence budget and a carrier is a white elephant for a small nation like UK
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Viv S »

Philip wrote:What if....? If the US starts stopping tanker traffic transiting from Iran,the sh&t is going to hit the fan.There is no way that India can and must allow our energy supplies from Iran to be disturbed as long as there is no UN mandate for the same. If the US imposes a blockade without UN sanction,it will be the act of a "rogue nation".
What if the US formally declared war on Iran? Would India still be obliged to intervene?

If not, why not? After all, India's shipping to the country will still be disrupted and a UN mandate will still remain non-existent.
Secondly,alternative oil supplies can be found,but not Iranian light crude,which will push up our oil bill even higher affecting the economy dramatically,whether the intl. price goes up or not.Lanka is in an acute crisis having about 90% of its oil supplies from Iran and can find no other alternative as its refining capability of other sourced oil is less cost-effective.
It doesn't matter what the composition of the crude is - its all the same after the refining process. Light crudes have lower wax content but are also proportionately pricier.
The right to navigate the seas for any nation must prevail regardless of whether we like China's face or not.The issues between China and other Asian states relate to sovereignty and territorial disputes and not transiting the SLOCs.If we abandon this universally accepted law,then the US will make merry blockading any state whose face it does not like and we will be gripped with global conflicts.
No one is advocating abandoning anything. Point is, India's response has to be through diplomatic channels and diplomatic channels only. I wouldn't want to see India committing its military forces, just so that Iran can continue to have a nuclear program.
Right now,Asia is the world's economic generator and sabotaging its return to pre-eminence which it had 500 years ago before the arrival of European navies in our waters ,will have to be met with an irresistible force,jointly rather than separately.Either Asia swims together or hangs separately.This does require a turnaround in the attitude of the PRC.What would it prefer,to quote JFK about choosing LBJ as his running mate,"having India in the tent pissing out or outside pissing in?"
If and when that turnaround in PRC attitudes takes place we can reexamine the issue. Until then, its China that remains the India's primary concern not the US, regardless of how much their arrogance rubs one the wrong way.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by chetak »

suryag wrote:why does UK need carriers in the first place? It is better they spend their monies on more immediate problems. The UK should cut their defence budget and a carrier is a white elephant for a small nation like UK

In their feeble minds, the sun has not yet set!

Their inherent delusions of grandeur and international posing will make them a sharia dominated state in less than two decades.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Viv S »

Philip wrote:Important lessons for our ambitious carrier plans,study the British mistakes.

PS:The simplest way out of the morass is to cancel the JSF and buy French naval Rafales,esp. if the UK and the French are to co-operate the carriers to save costs! But,"Perfidious Albion" just cannot stomach froggie food or anything French,"rosbif" preferring even the "Junk Strike Fighter" from the US!
Still leaves the QE class requiring catapults. The UK already has over $2 billion invested in the JSF program that cannot be recovered. Not that they'd want to - the value of defence contracts awarded to British companies like Rolls Royce will comfortably outstrip the British govts. contribution.

And finally regardless of the delays and cost escalations faced while getting there, when it finally gains its IOC the F-35 will be the best strike aircraft in the world (aside from the PAKFA, J-20 and an upgraded F-22). Especially for critical 'first day' tactical strikes in a SAM rich environment. A role that until 2008 was performed by the F-117. I can't see the UK letting go of that for the Rafale, Super Hornet or even a navalized Eurofighter.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by keshavchandra »

Viv S wrote:
Philip wrote:Would the US risk attacking a joint Indo-Sino-Russo convoy of tankers?
Why would we want to get into a direct military alliance with the Chinese just to show the US up? We've been training for confrontation with China and establishing closer ties with countries like Vietnam and Japan to bolster our geopolitical position. I don't see anyone taking their eyes off the bigger picture over Iran.
This would not under any circumstances be a UN agreed upon blockade as neither Russia or China would allow it to go through the UNSC.In such a scenario,the US would run the risk of being branded an aggressor and invite global condemnation.We have also seen from past experience how the US reacts when it suffers a significant loss.It is in retreat all across Af-Pak and in Iraq.To imagine that we could not do the same to US warships or merchantmen transiting the IOR is to lose the plot.

I still not clearly remember the name of this article and its author (some retd. Admiral it was) on future war scenario of around 2050. It was a brief on satellite and electronic warfare and as per the writer’s hypothesis India would have its own GPS system that time frame. But during the peak war situ USAF would block/destroy the Indian satellite GPS network and then china will come forward and offered its GPS to retain the situation(Against Paki/US force). Bay of bangal would be the core war zone in between all that time super powers.
But still it a Hypothesis or a calculated one... :)
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by shyamd »

INS Vikramaditya to go for sea trials in May - December 4th Hand over.

Nerpa is 15 days away from reaching india apparently
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by putnanja »

Delivery of Scorpene submarines delayed: Govt
...
In a written reply on delivery of the submarines being constructed under Project-75, Defence Minister Mr A K Antony said, “The delivery schedule of the first submarine has been revised to June 2015 and that of the last submarine to September 2018.”

The original delivery schedule of the first submarine was December 2012 and remaining were to be delivered with a gap of one year each.

“Consequent to the approval of the government for revision of cost and delivery schedule, the delivery schedule of the first submarine has been revised,” he said

....
The government approval for construction of the six submarines at MDL under Project-75 was accorded in September 2005 at a total cost of Rs 18,798 crore and the contract was signed in October 2005, Mr Antony said.

The “government approval for revision in cost of the project to Rs 23,562 crore was accorded in February 2010 along with revision in delivery schedule,” he said.

Delay in construction is attributable to initial teething problems in absorption of new technology, delay in augmentation of industrial infrastructure at MDL and delay in procurement of items due to high cost as compared to the earlier indicated cost, Mr Antony said.

“Most of the teething problems have been resolved and various plans have been put in place to minimise delays,” he told the House.
...
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

Nerpa must be moving like a snail to reach india so slowly.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by sum »

^^ After having all these teethng troubles, will be criminal if we dont utilise the infrastructure pain-stakingly built and try to manufacture as many scorpenes as possible instead of lusitng after some mythical P-75I which doesnt seem to be going beyond the RFI stage for past 4-5 years ( and in the process stopping after 6 scorpenes and letting the infrastructure rot).
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by chackojoseph »

P-75 may be inadequate. P-75I could be enlarged Scorpene as the design techniques would have been already transfered to India. The expertise in Arihant for VLS could be incorporated. Else we could just buy Amurs.

The thing is that the learning's should be used to build nex gen submarine.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by sum »

^^^ Definitely not saying P-75 is enough but we shoudlnt stall on future activity in MDL just waiting for P-75I to fructify.

Hope that we parallely continue with more scorpenes or atleast utilise the infra for starting our own design based on scorpene( irrespective of the P-75I status). Anything but a repeat of the HDW fiasco.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by chackojoseph »

sum wrote:^^^ Definitely not saying P-75 is enough but we shoudlnt stall on future activity in MDL just waiting for P-75I to fructify.

Hope that we parallely continue with more scorpenes or atleast utilise the infra for starting our own design based on scorpene( irrespective of the P-75I status). Anything but a repeat of the HDW fiasco.
Your sentiments are correct. What I am trying to say is that even expanded Scorpenes will not help. They should use the expertise to build next gen sub. Else obsolesce will catch up and will be same as not knowing how to build a submarine.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by member_22906 »

Singha wrote:Nerpa must be moving like a snail to reach india so slowly.
Singha ji very possible that it has already reached or doing some snoop job in Indo-China Sea enroute to its home base
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Ganesh_S »

suryag wrote:why does UK need carriers in the first place? It is better they spend their monies on more immediate problems. The UK should cut their defence budget and a carrier is a white elephant for a small nation like UK
This might be one reason.

http://www.thenewstribune.com/2012/03/1 ... r-for.html
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by vic »

I think Navy might order more Scorps but they have to go through the tendering process which is fair
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

The hard fact is that conventional sub tech,AIP in particular,is still developing with newer types of fuel cells and even better batteries requirng no AIP too under dev.The French have a new concept,superior to the Scorpene,the Germans new U-boats from U214s onwards, and Russias too with further improvements to the Amur/lada design,capable of accommodating Brahmos too.It is there for for the present to haye two lines of subs,west and east,for SSK/littorals and extended blue-water ops and a decade hence after opertaing the two types,develop if need be ourselves a single type.However,technology won't stand still and newer tech developements will continue to flow from both east and west neccessitating perhaps a JV for such a type.I syill feel though that we need two types for the littorals an SSSK design and a larger boat for blue-water ops,apart from our SSGNs for trans-oceanic ops.

The difficulties the UK has got into are relying upon a foreign design for their naval carrier aircraft and the fact that very for simple basic requirements like a tailhook,the carrier JSF is in deep sh&t! This remionds me of an old ditty"

"for want of the nail the shoe was lost,
for want of the shoe the horse was lost,
for want of the horse the rider was lost,
for want of the rider the battle was lost!"

As Adm.Sandy Woodward put it perfectly,without a carrier and its aircraft the UK can only carry out expeditionary warfare as far as the cost of France! Therefore,"for want of the carrier aircraft",perhaps in the future,the "Falklands will be lost"!

Let us remember that not only do we have to protect our energy supplies from the Gulf,etc., but we also have many island territories which are closer to the ASEAN region than our landmass,where the Chinese have a snooping base on a Burmese island. .
keshavchandra
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by keshavchandra »

State-run shipyard stares at Rs 100-cr loss in Navy deal
Link
In one of the biggest ship-building deals bagged by Alcock Ashdown (Gujarat) Ltd, the state-run utility is now staring at losses of about Rs 100 crore. The Rs 700-crore deal, involving construction of six survey vessels for the Indian Navy, has come in for sharp criticism from the Comptroller and Auditor General of India (CAG).

The apex auditing body has pulled up the state-run firm for the deal, saying the uncertainty prevailing over its own divestment process, inexperience in preparation of cost estimates for Navy vessels and non-availability of adequate financial assistance were primary reasons that have left the company exposed to the losses.

“In December 2006, the company, bidding of the Indian Navy contract for the first time, did not prepare proper cost estimates for the project involving construction of six survey vessels for the Indian Navy. We observed that the company imprudently accepted the price of Rs 109.89 crore per vessel for the MoD (Ministry of Defence) project, even though its own estimated cost of construction (excluding profit) per vessel was Rs 115.87 crore,” says the CAG report which is to be tabled in the state Assembly on March 30.

“As per the company’s own latest estimate (March 2011), the cost of construction (excluding the element of profit) per vessel would be Rs 125.96 crore, as against the contract price of Rs 109.89 crore. Thus, the company is already exposed to a probable loss of Rs 96.42 crore, which does not include the revised costs for the other fixed-price items in the contract (viz., cost of modification and project management) not estimated by the company as yet,” it adds.

The matter was reported to the government in June 2011, but CAG did not receive any replies in this regard.
Philip
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

The GOI should sack the top management responsible after a short and quick inquiry.This will send a signal lesson to all PSU shipyards including MD which has delayed the P-17s inordinately,making them more expensive than if they were bought/built abroad,and who want no private yards to build major ships and subs.The buck has to stop somewhere.How can we penalise foreign yards when we do b*gger all with our delinquents at home?
Nikhil T
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Nikhil T »

Philip wrote:The GOI should sack the top management responsible after a short and quick inquiry.This will send a signal lesson to all PSU shipyards including MD which has delayed the P-17s inordinately,making them more expensive than if they were bought/built abroad,and who want no private yards to build major ships and subs.The buck has to stop somewhere.How can we penalise foreign yards when we do b*gger all with our delinquents at home?
This is not such a big deal. No loss to the exchequer has happened. All that is required is competent staff for financial estimates.
As regards penalizing foreign yards, what about Gorshkov - delayed by 4 years and 7200 crore over-budget (not counting hundreds spent in unplanned refits for Viraat)? Atleast, the Indian yard is absorbing the loss. I'd say go after the bigger fish, wouldn't you?
Badar
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Badar »

Interesting tidbit : ELF station being set up to support the Arihants. Pieces beginning to come together.
http://trishul-trident.blogspot.in/2012 ... ng-up.html
rahul_r
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by rahul_r »

Got an opportunity to visit the INS Jalashwa and INS Shivalik a few days ago. Was my first time aboard any naval vessel.

INS Jalashwa

Was mesmerized by the size of the Jalashwa. A few more of these beasts and we will have a potent LPD fleet. There were a lot of questions posed by the CAG with regards to the "hasty" acquisition of the ship, but it seems like it has added a new dimension to the navy's capabilities - ability to house 4 LCMs, act as a landing deck for the Harrier/2-3 SeaKing helos, humanitarian efforts (refugee evacuations) etc. Add to that it is stream powered and relatively cheap to operate as per the sailor that was guiding me through the ship's deck. It also has plethora of medical staff (including a dentist!).

One cool thing about the ship was the ward's room where senior officers mingle over snacks/drinks. It had a blue color theme with a small wine bar, lounge style seating, and a PS3 to boot! They definitely know how to relax/unwind. Was offered some refreshments in the form of an orange juice with crushed ice and some chips. Was also offered lunch on board but I respectfully declined owing to my own time constraints. I managed to chat up with a senior ranking officer while in the ward's room. The topic of indigenization came up and he mentioned that the army and air force are a bit more rigid than the navy when it comes to taking up indigenous equipment. He recounted an anecdote from his stint at the Staff College in Wellington where a couple of officers from all three services were given a project to complete in a few hrs. The Army and Navy officers were supervised by their respective senior officers where the navy officer was allowed to go home and work on it at his own pace without any supervision. I guess the whole point of this anecdote was to show that navy gives it officers more freedom when it comes to executing a particular task.

...on to the INS Shivalik

Unfortunately, I did not have too much time here, again due to my own time constraints, so I only got a fleeting glimpse of the deck. Every major system on the ship is captured / explained in pretty good detail on the BR Navy page. Nothing new to report on that front other than the fact that the ship looks spanking new and has a robust Early warning and air defense system in the form of radars, sensors, jammers, countermeasures, etc. Apparently, the Brahmos will be inducted very soon onto the ship. "No Limits" is the ship's motto and its inscribed onto all the sailor's hats.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by JTull »

Badar wrote:Interesting tidbit : ELF station being set up to support the Arihants. Pieces beginning to come together.
http://trishul-trident.blogspot.in/2012 ... ng-up.html
A very good news indeed. Can we corroborate this from any other sources?
merlin
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by merlin »

JTull wrote:
Badar wrote:Interesting tidbit : ELF station being set up to support the Arihants. Pieces beginning to come together.
http://trishul-trident.blogspot.in/2012 ... ng-up.html
A very good news indeed. Can we corroborate this from any other sources?
Well we already have a VLF station, how big would a stretch from that to ELF be?
shiv
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by shiv »

JTull wrote:
Badar wrote:Interesting tidbit : ELF station being set up to support the Arihants. Pieces beginning to come together.
http://trishul-trident.blogspot.in/2012 ... ng-up.html
A very good news indeed. Can we corroborate this from any other sources?
Needless to say, Russia is closely associated with the R & D for such a facility, with minimal DRDO inputs. When completed, India will be the third country after the US and Russia to host an ELF communications station.—Prasun K. Sengupta
:roll:
Eric Leiderman
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Eric Leiderman »

Merlin actually fm a technological point of view, It is quite different, Its like comparing a short wave radio to a FM radio (Frequency not modulation)
Fm a physical point of view the antennas will cover many sq KM's as they must be at least 1/4th of a wave length (and since freq is inversly prop to wave length)
The 2nd strike command and control (communication) is now taking shape
PKS being the source maybe we wait for other sources to confirm 8) the above.
Singha
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

>> Well we already have a VLF station, how big would a stretch from that to ELF be?

ELF is said to need antenna many kms long .... the P2 have them sited in some remote areas.

I also think a trailing spool of wire antenna is let out from a/c also for the airborne cmd post but uses VLF...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Looking_Glass
>> EC-135 Looking Glass aircraft were airborne 24 hours a day for over 29 years
>> In addition to being able to launch ICBMs, the E-6B can communicate Emergency Action Messages (EAM) to nuclear submarines running at depth by extending a 2½-mile-long trailing wire antenna (TWA) for use with the Survivable Low Frequency Communications System (SLFCS).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivable ... ons_System
Singha
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

feed Vijayanarayanam, Tamil Nadu, India into google earth and you can see the huge VLF facility. complete with helipads, housing, swim pool, some tall towers and antenna poles... looks like ELF den will be same facility it is around 25km due N of kudankulam , nagercoil distt.

place looks rocky with only thin layer of soil - necessary for ELF per the zvets link.
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