PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

[Raja Bose]

Likewise, my solheight friend. I have fun watching you bsing. Your bs show has been wonderful

No you didn't have fun despite brave attempts to pretend otherwise. In fact you got your undies in a twist and tripped over them becoz someone not only called out your BS re. Huawei's supposed 'innovation' but also treated you like a clown in the process....leaving you to weakly bleat about India's corrupt govt.

[ashi]

Likewise, my solheight friend. I have fun watching you bsing. Your bs show has been wonderful

No you didn't have fun despite brave attempts to pretend otherwise. In fact you got your undies in a twist and tripped over them becoz someone not only called out your BS re. Huawei's supposed 'innovation' but also treated you like a clown in the process....leaving you to weakly bleat about India's corrupt govt.

Oh trust me. I do. I like to see how a supapowa talker to be like. When he is feel like winning in talking, in reality, is losing in every counts of competition.

[wong]

Unless your "panda poop tea" or yet another orifice to the appendix has already won the Lasker Prize (i.e. the American Nobel) and is on a very short list for the real Swedish Nobel and has saved millions of lives in Africa and Asia like Artemisinin, then this really lame straw man poop tea argument doesn't deserve a serious answer. Logically, the panda poop tea argument doesn't even make much sense.

As for the Tata Nano, I see zero "innovation" in it from an automotive or engineering perspective. Nor does it break any new ground in cost saving manufacturing techniques or features. The original Daimler-Swatch Smart mini-car is far, far more innovative in both construction and safety techniques. The fact that no other car manufacturer has emulated any design element or manufacturing attribute of the Tata Nano years later should also prove there was no worthwhile innovation there. Imitation is the best form of flattery. That the Nano is a commercial and export failure despite all the Indian hype, also shows the Nano is no Honda CVCC or VW Beetle in significance in automotive history and will go the way of the $35 tablet or $500 house. Good hype and enjoyable self-congratulations, but zero economic significance.

The Chinese equivalent (it's not really equivalent) is called Artemisinin.

Which do you think will win a Nobel Prize in Medicine first, another way to reach the appendix or a drug that has saved millions. My guess is on the anti-malarial drug. It's already on a short, short list.

Artemisinin is "innovation" on the lines of Panda Poop Tea . Tea has been in existence since millenia, a Chinese entrepreneur convinced of the "70% nutrients left behind in Panda Poop" wants to use fertilizer to grow "fragrant and smooth" tea and the most expensive tea in the world .. Artemisinin is similar, the plant is known for millenia, the PRC isolates the molecule and probably studies it's pharmacology and makes it "better" (ie innovation on existing knowledge , like adding Panda Poop as fertilizer to tea plant).

Sorry, you REALLY dont know what you are talking about. If you wanted to quote an example, I think the Chinese Tissue Culture vaccine for Japanese Encephalitis is a much better example of innovation. That is a good achievement.

China is innovative, but the innovation is probably in hundreds of small and medium enterprises out of the Shenzen model, rather than the big state funded behemoths of the "Shanghai model" based on stolen IP, preferential market access, unlimited access to the state's balance sheet to extend ultra cheap suppliers credit and all of this with very little innovation worth the money spent.

[Gus]

Most people rather buying a second hand Japanese used car, than spend the same money to buy a brand new Nano. What does that tell you? Budget buyer look for biggest bang for the buck. They have given their vote.

it tells me that plenty of innovations don't make money and that money making is not the measure of every innovation. some succeed and some don't. It is the process that is important. success will follow.

[Gus]

Oh trust me. I do. I like to see how a supapowa talker to be like. When he is feel like winning in talking, in reality, is losing in every counts of competition.

why are you here then? if you have "won" already, go enjoy your "winnings" and leave us in our misery, whatever that may be.

[wong]

Sudarshan, you and I both know the real purpose of this thread and all Indian threads on the Chinese economy. Schadenfreude.

How else do you explain daily Indian rail accidents where lives are lost and not a single mention in the Indian rail thread (I've checked) but pages and pages and pages critical of Chinese HSR. Chinese HSR doesn't use a penny of Indian money, an ounce of Indian Tech or require a single Indian passenger nor does it even connect with Indian Rail, so why do you guys care so much ?? Schadenfreude.

As for thread derailment, if a Chinese member here answers a specific Indian member's question for the Chinese (i.e. name a medical innovation or how many Nobels), why is only the Chinese member called for derailment??? Double standard, but no surprise here.

Hahaha. Why are you being so restrictive in your criteria??? Do you guys not take credit for Vikram Pandit and the Pepsi lady every week?? You guys even take credit for Indian-Americans in the Intel Science Talent Search finals (we Chinese-Americans still did better by a 2 to 1 margin). If I were to restrict the Nobel criteria to non-British India, is it zero or one???

May I point out that Wong has successfully sidetracked this thread into an Indo-Chinese fist-fight on Nobel prizes, Intel Science Talent, India vs China on any subject under the sun (except the original focus of the thread, of course?). That was probably the intent right from the beginning anyway.

To reply to your comments about me, Wong (meaning the 'discount everything China does' and the 'really no point to discuss this further'), you're right, there's no point discussing this further, because:

(1) You refuse to admit that copying something that's been around for thousands of years (your malaria drug) is *NOT* innovation, regardless of whether it wins a Nobel prize or not.

(2) You want Indians here to unquestioningly accept every proof of Chinese greatness that you produce. This is not going to happen, i.e., Indians are going to keep questioning everything (including Indian achievements) until we're satisfied with the answers.

(3) This discussion is not the original intent of this thread, which is, the Chinese economy. Congratulations on side-tracking the thread thus far, but I hope posters will get back on track now.

(4) If you want to discuss the Indian economy, please go to the Indian economy thread. This might come as a surprise to you, but there *IS* such a thread, where Indians themselves express their unhappiness with the state of the Indian economy. We don't sit around admiring our great achievements all the time - we do criticize our incompetent government. I know questioning your government is not something that comes naturally to you guys, but you can learn from Indians here.

(5) My last post on this, since I have no intention of mud-wrestling with the pigs. This is not meant to be offensive, it is a very common English expression. I don't care if the pigs are "not really pigs, but only pretending to be pigs, so they can eat tigers later." If you want to reply to my post so you can have the last word and feel great about yourself, you are welcome to do so.

Sudarshan

[wong]

@gakkakad

And how many of these 83 HIV drugs where developed in India. I'm not talking about mandatory licensing drugs in India for mere pennies (what you would call pirating IP if the Chinese did this), but actually invented in India ???

[But, to some extent, this was a hollow victory. For one thing, the fact that
Artesunate is the only Chinese drug certified by WHO says something about
the state of the pharmaceutical industry in China. On the WHO List of PreQualified Medicines as of August 2006 – the list is updated regularly – there
are eighty-three HIV/AIDs drugs supplied by five indigenous Indian firms
and there are six tuberculosis drugs supplied by three Indian firms.As impressive as Shanghai Fuxing is within China, it lags substantially behind
its Indian peers. ]

[amit]

As for the Tata Nano, I see zero "innovation" in it from an automotive or engineering perspective.

Wow, the more I see you guys the more I shake my head in disbelief. Over the years the quality of English of our Chinese guests have increased exponentially but there's been a corresponding decline in the quality/depth of posts. In fact Wong, you guys have become mirror images of the occasional Pakistani trolls we get on BRF who provide a lot of entertainment.

Your comments makes me seriously think that you have absolutely zero idea about what innovation is all about out side the various innovative ways one can steal IP of others.

Here's a good 101 on innovation. Read it before making foolish comments.

There are many different types of innovation with the two most popular types amongst innovation specialists usually being incremental innovation and radical innovation.

I gave an example of both in a previous post. Let me repeat. The first iPhone as well as the first iPad was a classic case of incremental innovation in which an existing product/process was taken and improved on to take it to a whole new level. The discovery of Nor and Nand Flash, on the other hand, was a classic case of radical innovation.

When most people think of innovations they think of product innovations but to mass produce an innovative product at a price that the market will accept a process innovation needs to be first created.

Process innovations can also occur to simply reduce the number of steps in an existing process so as to reduce the overall cost of running a process and consequently reduce the cost of the end product.

One particular example of a process innovation is supply chain innovation which if done well can often assist you in gaining competitive advantage.

There are also service innovations. Often good service leads to increased sales and some companies have based the majority of their business model on ensuring that the service they provide to their customers is one of the most innovative.

Now does it get into your head? The innovation in Tata Nano was process innovation. They looked at how cars are manufactured and then broke down the entire process and found out from what areas cost could be taken out without compromising on safety. From the very start the Nano is Euro IV compliant and has undergone and passed European crash tests.

If you're really interested on the types of innovation that has taken place in Nano, read this write-up. You need to wake up and smell the coffee, innovation can be done on low budgets and without stealing IP.

It's not for nothing that Nano was recognised as a major innovation in automotive design and manufacture in all the world that's outside the Great Chinese Firewall.

[vina]

As for the Tata Nano, I see zero "innovation" in it from an automotive or engineering perspective. Nor does it break any new ground in cost saving manufacturing techniques or features.

YOU dear friend wont know the difference between the rear end of a pig from engineering and innovation. Who cares about what YOU think . I somehow think the Smithsonian, the auto industry and the editorial writers are far better than you.

As for asinine rubbish about "no one imitates Nano" and hence not innovative, well, I dont sell anyone "imitating" the VW Beetle or the Morris Mini (engg wise the car that had massive impact , esp bringing front wheel drive and packaging efficiency, most modern cars use that layout today because of the Mini) , or the Citroen CV2 , today , and so, it doesn't mean that those car's weren't innovative.

Heck, look at the production runs of each of those cars, upwards of 40 years. The Tata Nano is the modern equivalent of the VW Beetle, Morris Mini, or the CV2. It will see a really really long production run over a few decades as a platform.

Think of it, a Nano, despite a brand new design where the R&D and the tooling has to all costs has to be amortized, it is still cheaper than a fully paid amortized, picked up from junkyard and already amortized and paid off 3rd hand car you make called Chery QQ, it speaks volumes about the design and manufacturing innovations that went into it.

[amit]

Here's the first paragraph from the Tata Pixel press release for the launch at the Geneva Motor Show in March last year.

Tata Motors today presented at the 81st Geneva Motor Show the Tata Pixel, a new city car concept for Europe. Based on the Tata Nano, the Tata Pixel – at just over three metres in length – is the most package efficient four-seater in the world, comfortably accommodating four adults, unlike a typical city car which is either a two-seater or can accommodate two adults and two children only.

Wong,

Does it get into your brain that the Nano is not just a one-off car but a platform on which Tata is going to produce a whole set of new concept vehicles? Can you give me one example of 100 per cent Chinese designed car platform from which several different products have been derived and which have received rave reviews?

PS: I hope you do note that nobody is accusing the Tata's of stealing IP even as they make a foray into Europe?

And here's the details for the Megapixel, shown this year at the Geneva show:

Tata Motors today presented at the 82nd Geneva Motor Show the Tata Megapixel, a new four-seater city-smart global range extended electric vehicle (REEV) concept for the performance-seeking and environment-conscious motorist anywhere in the world. Combining a lithium ion phosphate battery and an on-board petrol engine generator for recharging on the move, the Tata Megapixel offers a range of up to 900 km (with a single tank of fuel), path-breaking CO2 emission of just 22 gm / km and fuel economy of 100 km / litre (under battery only power).

Speaking on the occasion, Mr. Prakash M. Telang, Managing Director - India Operations, Tata Motors, said, “The Tata Megapixel, developed by our design centres in India, the UK and Italy, is our idea of a city car for discerning motorists in any megacity of the world. It is a result of the progress we have made on the Tata Pixel, displayed last year, and also denotes the company’s future design direction.”

The class-leading ‘Zero Turn’ drive system of the Tata Pixel (shown at the 2011 Geneva Motor Show) has been taken to an even higher level of manoeuvrability in the Tata Megapixel. The car’s electric drive has four independent electric motors, one at each wheel. When parking, the electric hub motors drive the wheels in opposite directions, while the front wheels are turned at an acute angle, enabling an exceptional 2.8 metre turning radius. The at-home charging system is an as innovative induction charging system. The car has simply to be parked over the induction pad for charging to begin.

Again give one example form the "world's largest auto market".

[wong]

I'll ignore all the personal attacks that is the modus operandi here (especially towards Chinese members).

Platform engineering is NOT an innovation. VW has done it successfully since the early 1980's and GM showed us how to do it unsuccessfully around the same time.

As for the Nano book report you linked. Yes, I read it (slow day). Seriously, nothing new the Japanese didn't do in the 1960's. I can't believe it actually listed 1 windshield wiper and cheap bearings as an innovation, but hey, we all have different standards.

Tata set out to make a $2,000 car and that's exactly what it got, a $2,000 car.

Compare this with the original Toyota Lexus. It set out to to make a $60,000 car, but Toyota did for $35,000. It shook the German automotive industry at its core. All luxury car makers in the world took notice and the Germans had many, many sleepless nights taking the Lexus apart and figuring out how it could be made so cheap and with such precision.

Nobody is losing sleep over the Nano or taking it apart. Yes, this doesn't feel good and may bruise some Indian egos, but it's the truth.

Here's the first paragraph from the Tata Pixel press release for the launch at the Geneva Motor Show in March last year.

Tata Motors today presented at the 81st Geneva Motor Show the Tata Pixel, a new city car concept for Europe. Based on the Tata Nano, the Tata Pixel – at just over three metres in length – is the most package efficient four-seater in the world, comfortably accommodating four adults, unlike a typical city car which is either a two-seater or can accommodate two adults and two children only.

Wong,

Does it get into your brain that the Nano is not just a one-off car but a platform on which Tata is going to produce a whole set of new concept vehicles? Can you give me one example of 100 per cent Chinese designed car platform from which several different products have been derived and which have received rave reviews?

PS: I hope you do note that nobody is accusing the Tata's of stealing IP even as they make a foray into Europe?

[amit]

Platform engineering is NOT an innovation.

Platform engineering = process innovation!



I guess that says it all.

Go right ahead and compare with the Germans, Japanese, Americans etc. But I notice you refrain from comparing with any company from the "world's biggest automobile market!"

[wong]

Platform engineering is NOT an innovation.

Platform engineering = process innovation!



I guess that says it all.

Go right ahead and compare with the Germans, Japanese, Americans etc. But I notice you refrain from comparing with any company from the "world's biggest automobile market!"

In the case of the Nano, I don't think it even counts as process innovation. Automotive process innovations are well known and well taught in engineering schools. If there is a real process innovation in the Nano, please point it out. I didn't find it in the book report you gave me.

Sure, I'll talk about the 'world's biggest automobile market!'. China's domestic automakers don't have the luxury of building $2,000 gimmicks nobody wants to buy. China's auto market is the most competitive in the world. We call it Capitalism. No other car market with a domestic automotive manufacturing base allows such high foreign market share penetration. Not the US, not Japan, not Korea, not India and not Europe.

That means Chinese car makers have to design and build cars a developing nation like China actually wants to buy. When China makes a tablet computer, if people don't buy it, the tablet company will go out of business. Again, Capitalism vs. legacy licensed Raj. That's why Chinese car makers are doing extremely well in other developing countries like South America, Africa and South East Asia. Building cars people in those countries can actually afford and that are actually competitive with the used car market is crucial to survival. At this stage in their development, gimmicks and "innovations" are just unnecessary and unprofitable.

Remember, the first Hyundai in the USA was a horribly cloned Mitsubishi and look at them now.

[amit]

^^^^^

Live your La La land Wong and good luck!

Meanwhile have a relook at the Pixel and Mega Pixel announcements/video. That's what happens when you use process innovation to design a super competitive platform. You keep building on it. I know what the Chinese do, they look at models around the world, take a fender from here, a door design from there, the front grill from another place and then build a car.

Here are some random examples:



Honda CRV vs Laibao SRV



Mercedes C vs Geely Merrie 300



Smart vs er. Chinese Smart



Toyota Prado vs Dadi Shuttle

And of course the Grand Daddy:

Rolls-Royce Phantom vs Hongqi HQD



You see Wong, you can call Indian made/designed cars crappy, your choice. But you can't call them copycats. From the innovation perspective there's a huge difference there.

[Rahul M]

^^ you missed the bajaj pulsar and it's chinese copy gulsar.

[wong]

@amit

So did Tata commission Bertone, ItalDesign or Pininfarina for the work ??

And even if Tata did it in house, so what? So can any second year design student.

This is the least important part of the business. I'm honestly more impressed by the clones from an Econ perspective. Remember what I said about the first Hyundai?? Nice pics. Thx.

And I never called the Nano "crappy". Those are your words, not mine. I said Tata made a $2,000 car for $2,000, big difference in meaning.

[Hari Seldon]

Sudarshan, you and I both know the real purpose of this thread and all Indian threads on the Chinese economy. Schadenfreude.

How else do you explain daily Indian rail accidents where lives are lost and not a single mention in the Indian rail thread (I've checked) but pages and pages and pages critical of Chinese HSR. Chinese HSR doesn't use a penny of Indian money, an ounce of Indian Tech or require a single Indian passenger nor does it even connect with Indian Rail, so why do you guys care so much ?? Schadenfreude.

As for thread derailment, if a Chinese member here answers a specific Indian member's question for the Chinese (i.e. name a medical innovation or how many Nobels), why is only the Chinese member called for derailment??? Double standard, but no surprise here.

You know, the cheeni chappie may actually have a point here.... Just saying only...

However this:

so why do you guys care so much ?? Schadenfreude.

is blanket generalization as also a lamentable mischaracterization of the very scrutable desi psyche only.

So tell me sir, why you still haven't answered a Q that has arisen repeatedly on here.

Tell me why the cheeni posters here care what us boor SDRE injuns think or say or feel (schaudenfraude anyone?) about the shining-shining PRC economy. Do you see any Yindians persistently posting/boasting on cheeni forums? I certainly don;t see Injuns take flak and yet return again and again. So.....why do you guys care so much? Why not eff off and chillax, eh? Just wondering only. My conjecture is that you are paid by the CPC to troll the web and spraypaint positive things about China. Its a job you do. Sure I could be wrong but nothing I've seen thus far tells me otherwise. Only.

Jai hu, jai mao.

[wong]

Sure, that's easy. Of course, I can't speak for the other Chinese members here, but I'm here for China and only China. You guys are really good at finding every 2nd hand piece of Western news on China. Since 99.99% of you can't speak mandarin, we are not expecting anything first hand. You'll notice the Chinese members here basically only visit the Chinese threads (for the most part). The China Military thread is pretty useless or months old. But if I want to read the latest China bashing story in the Western press, BR is definitely the place to go.

Sudarshan, you and I both know the real purpose of this thread and all Indian threads on the Chinese economy. Schadenfreude.

How else do you explain daily Indian rail accidents where lives are lost and not a single mention in the Indian rail thread (I've checked) but pages and pages and pages critical of Chinese HSR. Chinese HSR doesn't use a penny of Indian money, an ounce of Indian Tech or require a single Indian passenger nor does it even connect with Indian Rail, so why do you guys care so much ?? Schadenfreude.

As for thread derailment, if a Chinese member here answers a specific Indian member's question for the Chinese (i.e. name a medical innovation or how many Nobels), why is only the Chinese member called for derailment??? Double standard, but no surprise here.

You know, the cheeni chappie may actually have a point here.... Just saying only...

However this:

so why do you guys care so much ?? Schadenfreude.

is blanket generalization as also a lamentable mischaracterization of the very scrutable desi psyche only.

So tell me sir, why you still haven't answered a Q that has arisen repeatedly on here.

Tell me why the cheeni posters here care what us boor SDRE injuns think or say or feel (schaudenfraude anyone?) about the shining-shining PRC economy. Do you see any Yindians persistently posting/boasting on cheeni forums? I certainly don;t see Injuns take flak and yet return again and again. So.....why do you guys care so much? Why not eff off and chillax, eh? Just wondering only. My conjecture is that you are paid by the CPC to troll the web and spraypaint positive things about China. Its a job you do. Sure I could be wrong but nothing I've seen thus far tells me otherwise. Only.

Jai hu, jai mao.

[PrasadZ]

But if I want to read the latest China bashing story in the Western press, BR is definitely the place to go.

Try google reader, wong, and save yourself the trouble of posting a reply. If you can. Of course, you are a drone. So? Whats wrong with that?

China does innovate in .. protests

This forum exists for the like minded to preach to each other. As 99% of forums do, on the internet. But you, wong, do not behave like 99% of the users of such forums. You claim to seek news of bashing, then spend way too much time countering it. I await with bated breath the "torn fly open shirt" argument you cant resist

Sheesh. And you claim to seek news, not mold views

[Raja Bose]

Oh trust me. I do. I like to see how a supapowa talker to be like. When he is feel like winning in talking, in reality, is losing in every counts of competition.

Yet, you my dear biladel, are on an Indian forum posting away, desperately trying to convince me that you are winning....post after post after post This thread feels like a Chinese Bojitive Neuj Thread except our biladels themselves are doing the honours! Why do you guys care so much about our stamp of approval? I mean we are losing on all counts of competition and are a boor SDRE nation onlee! We feel so honoured that a superpower's citizens want our stamp of approval so desperately!

[Raja Bose]

@amit

So did Tata commission Bertone, ItalDesign or Pininfarina for the work ??

I hope you can fathom the difference between commissioning someone to design something for you as opposed to blatantly ripping them off like the above pics. Do you know what is Intellectual Property? Going by Huawei's 'innovation', I guess not....

And even if Tata did it in house, so what? So can any second year design student.

This is classic! I guess then the car companies don't need to pay 6-7 figure salaries to their designers. After all a second year design student can do it! They should just hire interns and pay them $50k a year. Or wait....even better why not just rip off someone else's design since that is clearly so impressive from an Econ perspective. Now that is gleat chinese innovation, I tell you! Ferrari/Lexus/, did you hear that? You guys need to learn from Cherry and Geely about true innovation and creativity in products and process!

[Suraj]

Sudarshan, you and I both know the real purpose of this thread and all Indian threads on the Chinese economy. Schadenfreude.

How else do you explain daily Indian rail accidents where lives are lost and not a single mention in the Indian rail thread (I've checked) but pages and pages and pages critical of Chinese HSR. Chinese HSR doesn't use a penny of Indian money, an ounce of Indian Tech or require a single Indian passenger nor does it even connect with Indian Rail, so why do you guys care so much ?? Schadenfreude.

As for thread derailment, if a Chinese member here answers a specific Indian member's question for the Chinese (i.e. name a medical innovation or how many Nobels), why is only the Chinese member called for derailment??? Double standard, but no surprise here.

Oh please. No need to indulge in so much rona dhona and "why don't they luuurrrrvve me ???"

Have you looked at any India-XX thread ? None of them are fountains of praise - pretty much everything deals with critical issues involving another country. You don't even have to be a rival - even the Russians get excoriated. You want easy 'China gleat!' praise for everything posted ? Join a Pakistani forum.

[amit]

@amit

So did Tata commission Bertone, ItalDesign or Pininfarina for the work ??

And even if Tata did it in house, so what? So can any second year design student.

This is the least important part of the business. I'm honestly more impressed by the clones from an Econ perspective. Remember what I said about the first Hyundai?? Nice pics. Thx.

And I never called the Nano "crappy". Those are your words, not mine. I said Tata made a $2,000 car for $2,000, big difference in meaning.

Wong,

I'm sorry to disappoint you but you can't bullsh!t your way through this forum and think no one will notice.

You brought up the example of Hyundai. I'll get to the point about them coping Mitsubishi designs, just like Chinese auto companies do blatantly, in a moment.

But before that let me give a piece of news, Pony the first car which Hyundai did independently got design help from, guess who? Giorgio Giugiaro of ItalDesign . Tra, la, la...

You see Tata Motors is on the right track.

Now coming back to your point about Hyundai coping Mitsubishi, in 1967 the Korean company's first car the Cortina was made in collaboration with Ford Motor. In the 1980s Hyundai entered into a partnership with Mitsubishi to co-produce the Grandeur and they also entered into an understanding to use Mitsubishi powertrain and engine technology in some of their other models.

I hope you understand the difference here. What Hyundai did was a business transaction with Mitsubishi, it did not rip off designs and technology from the Japanese company or Ford for the matter. That's the big difference, all the Chinese examples I showed are blatant rip off of existing and successful design.

Such blatant steal can give short term gains. However, in the longer term you end up by not learning anything and you have wait for the next opportunity to copy.

However, if you take the approach taken by Hyundai (and before that companies like Toyota) and now being followed by the likes of Tata Motors and Mahindra gets one better long term benefits.

By early 2000 Hyundai had outgrown its partnership with Mitsubishi and started used its own design and technology expertise it had developed through hard work.

The Avante was one of the first models to come out and boy they have gone places from there.



Another example:

Here's how the Kia Cerato used to look in the mid 2000s:



And here's how the new model looks like:



The bottomline Wong, is that copying does not get you anywhere, you need to go up the learning curve in order the get the expertise required to become a world class company. And that's precisely what the Indian car companies are doing and that's what makes them different from Chinese car companies which are looking for shortcuts in design and technology.

[amit]

^^^^^^

Just look at an example from the Mahindra stable. The company makes SUVs.

This is what their SUVs used to look like in the early and mid-2000s



And this is how their latest model Mahindra xuv500 looks like:



In fact Mahindra is so confident with this model that it is doing the inaugural launch in South Africa and will start to sell in India much later. Can you tell me which Chinese car company has the gumption to do a first launch outside of China?

The point of all this is the same. Blatant copying and rip offs can probably make money for Chinese car companies considering the size of the Chinese market. But that's not the way to build global, respected brandnames. I'm not saying companies like Tata Motors or Mahindras are there yet but I'm confident they are on the right track. I can't say the same for any of the Chinese car companies. Maybe you can educate me.

[Hari Seldon]

amit saar, thou art caste-ing pearls before swine, methinks...

[amit]

^^ you missed the bajaj pulsar and it's chinese copy gulsar.

Ah yes how could I forget.

Pulsar:



And the Cheeni "invention" Gulsar:



Damnit even the name Gular is Indic in origin!

[amit]

China's auto market is the most competitive in the world. We call it Capitalism. No other car market with a domestic automotive manufacturing base allows such high foreign market share penetration. Not the US, not Japan, not Korea, not India and not Europe.

Sorry I missed this gem!

So the Chinese market is more Capitalist than the US, Japanese, Korean, Europe and of course the Indian market.
Pray can you tell me what restrictions are there for foreign companies to sell cars in India?

[amit]

amit saar, thou art caste-ing pearls before swine, methinks...

Hari Saar,

I know.

But what to do my (our as well) Indic nature makes me/us the keeper of the pearls.

[sudarshan]

amit saar, thou art caste-ing pearls before swine, methinks...

Hari Saar,

I know.

But what to do my (our as well) Indic nature makes me/us the keeper of the pearls.

You see, saarji, the swine are not really swine, but only pretending to be swine, so they can eat tigers later.

Hope you "catch my poo-oint," as Kameswaran would say in Michael-Madana-Kama-Rajan. If they are truly swine, they will not appreciate the pearls. If they are pretending to be swine, they will pretend not to understand the pearls - which is worse if you think about it.

Which is why I say - ignore the trolling, and get on with the original intent of the thread.

Sudarshan

[amit]

^^^^^

Agree with you Sudarshan ji.

I can't vouch for the others but I do have a definite reason for responding to these posts. Over the years I found that many Indian posters here have also succumbed to the "Shock and Awe" tactics adopted by Chinese posters here. Most of my posts are for this audience as well as for our guests!

I'm happy to see less number of gushing posts admiring China and chest beating about India.

I must add, I personally think there are many things worth admiring in what China has achieved. However, those are not the things which our Chinese posters like to highlight.

[wong]

If you mean searching Google news, then yes I do that too but it doesn't find the nugget of really extreme China bashing articles at the top. I may have scroll to page 15 for that. Coming here saves me the time.

For example, the article stating China will have $22 TRILLION in total debt in 3 years. I could never have found that "gem" using Google News and I like to know as much as possible.

Shape/Mold views?? How does responding to silly articles on an anonymous internet forum qualify as shaping news or molding views?? For any debate, there has to be a minimum of two sides. Otherwise, you're talking into a vacuum or an echo chamber.

But if I want to read the latest China bashing story in the Western press, BR is definitely the place to go.

Try google reader, wong, and save yourself the trouble of posting a reply. If you can. Of course, you are a drone. So? Whats wrong with that?

China does innovate in .. protests

This forum exists for the like minded to preach to each other. As 99% of forums do, on the internet. But you, wong, do not behave like 99% of the users of such forums. You claim to seek news of bashing, then spend way too much time countering it. I await with bated breath the "torn fly open shirt" argument you cant resist

Sheesh. And you claim to seek news, not mold views

[wong]

The 6 to 7 figure salaries for car designers is for the 1 or 2 global design stars. Not every designer is making million dollar salaries. In fact, most aren't and this is true in most artistic fields. Using an extreme example to prove a point is no different than the "panda poop tea" strawman to discredit a prize winning drug that has saved millions.

Concept cars aren't a big deal. If you have $2 - $5 million dollar, the design houses will give you a concept car. It really is not an impressive achievement. Go to any major international auto show and you'll find boutique design houses with 10 employees and less than a $1 million in revenue showing some pretty impressive concept cars. Advances in computer technology has just made it easier. Look up Wiesmann or Tramontana. Both have successful boutique car lines with only a handful of employees. Certainly if 2 German brothers with $3 million can do it, I should certainly hope a multi-billion dollar legacy licensed Raj can pay someone to do it for them too.

There is about 4 generations between the Hyundai cloned Mitsubishi and the current Hyundai Elantra (the picture you showed). There is a span of almost 30 years between the 1st and 4th generation Hyundai. The Chinese automakers are advancing even faster. Like Huawei they will probably close the gap in only 5 years. BBC Top Gear recently did a show on Chinese cars and basically came to the same conclusion.

As for fanthoming a commission vs. "blatantly ripping them off", you mean that's not what the Indian drug industry have been doing with mandatory licensing of patented drugs??? Ask Bayer if they think their new patented cancer drug is being ripped off right now by two Indian drug companies. This Indian holier than thou does get tiresome.

@amit

So did Tata commission Bertone, ItalDesign or Pininfarina for the work ??

I hope you can fathom the difference between commissioning someone to design something for you as opposed to blatantly ripping them off like the above pics. Do you know what is Intellectual Property? Going by Huawei's 'innovation', I guess not....

And even if Tata did it in house, so what? So can any second year design student.

This is classic! I guess then the car companies don't need to pay 6-7 figure salaries to their designers. After all a second year design student can do it! They should just hire interns and pay them $50k a year. Or wait....even better why not just rip off someone else's design since that is clearly so impressive from an Econ perspective. Now that is gleat chinese innovation, I tell you! Ferrari/Lexus/, did you hear that? You guys need to learn from Cherry and Geely about true innovation and creativity in products and process!

[amit]

There is a span of almost 30 years between the 1st and 4th generation Hyundai. The Chinese automakers are advancing even faster. Like Huawei they will probably close the gap in only 5 years.

Nice display of hubris. Keep up the good work!

[wong]

There is a span of almost 30 years between the 1st and 4th generation Hyundai. The Chinese automakers are advancing even faster. Like Huawei they will probably close the gap in only 5 years.

Nice display of hubris. Keep up the good work!

Not me. Jeremy Clarkson of the BBC. I figured he knows cars.

[gakakkad]

As for fanthoming a commission vs. "blatantly ripping them off", you mean that's not what the Indian drug industry have been doing with mandatory licensing of patented drugs??? Ask Bayer if they think their new patented cancer drug is being ripped off right now by two Indian drug companies. This Indian holier than thou does get tiresome.

Bayer itself rips products from university research.. Western pharma industry is a scumbag industry. There innovations are limited to shifting an alkyl group from one place to another . They pick up government funded research , and buy off patents from universities . Barring a few compounds most drugs so far have been developed by the academia and stolen by the scumbags ... They should have no claim over the anti-cancer biologicals .. because they did not invent them .. If an Indian company looks up at open source university research and synthesises a compound that is a derivative of the one synthetised by the western companies , that it should not be called IPR violation. In some cases the drugs were released a lot earlier in India than in the US. Metformin for instance has been available in India since the late 60s .. In US it was available only in the late 90s. Yet some company (can't remember which one) sued Indian company for metformin. Turns out that some french university had discovered it in the 20s . why do the american pharma companies charge thrice as much for the metformin ,in comparison to the Indian "generics" (the term generic is starting to have racial undertones these days) ? . The common argument they use is that they innovated . While the Indians copied . When the drug was available a quarter century earlier in India than US , I wonder what innovation they are talking about. Most other drugs have similar history . Pharma companies buy out the IPRs of promising univ research , and than using legal force to prove that they "innovated" ..

[Sri]

Ooooogh!!! Wong San and Ashi San. China is a HUGE HUGE country. I am sure there is a lot of research and development happening. Name something more then Huawei please. So that we ca discuss something else.

[wong]

There is an Indian member, I forget the name, who is always talking about how poor China is because millions of Chinese live in caves. That is why I'm surprised this LA Times article about Chinese caves hasn't been posted here. Not gloomy enough ???

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... 2472.story

Honestly, that cave looks better than many Manhattan apartments. That very specific cave, not all Chinese caves.

[Raja Bose]

The 6 to 7 figure salaries for car designers is for the 1 or 2 global design stars. Not every designer is making million dollar salaries.

Have you met or worked with any car designer from a major car company such as GM, Ford, Toyota, Honda, JLR, VW (I don't meant Cherry and Geely )? If you have you would know that they earn pretty handsome salaries. The very senior ones do take home 7 figure salaries whereas all the rest are pretty comfortably in the 6 figure range in USD. Now your point was that car design can be done by any 2nd year design student - please tell me why in that case car companies don't just hire interns to do their car designs?? Why spends millions and millions of dollars in design? They must be stupid - I am sure they need to learn from the Gleat Chinese Innovation Machine. Perhaps China's Geely can lead the way by firing all the Volvo designers, cancel all design house contracts and hire cheap student labour to replace their design force.

Certainly if 2 German brothers with $3 million can do it, I should certainly hope a multi-billion dollar legacy licensed Raj can pay someone to do it for them too.

This basically reveals a lot to me. So for our Chinese biladels, everything is an unskilled labour problem - throw more bodies at it and they think it will get solved. Apparently skill and knowledge mean nothing. Thats why they think if 2 skilled professionals can do it, clearly 20 2nd year design students can do it! No wonder Chinese car companies are restricted to producing copies and crap like the QQ.

And why the over license Raj - is it becoz Huawei got barred? Then you should about the license Raj in USA too.

[Raja Bose]

As for fanthoming a commission vs. "blatantly ripping them off", you mean that's not what the Indian drug industry have been doing with mandatory licensing of patented drugs???

Do you know the difference between a product patent and a process patent? I guess not.

[Theo_Fidel]

This basically reveals a lot to me. So for our Chinese biladels, everything is an unskilled labour problem - throw more bodies at it and they think it will get solved. Apparently skill and knowledge mean nothing. Thats why they think if 2 skilled professionals can do it, clearly 20 2nd year design students can do it! No wonder Chinese car companies are restricted to producing copies and crap like the QQ. :rotfl

I have pointed out this particular fallacy of their thought process earlier with the way they are building structures and bridges in Earthquake country. They are copying designs for bridges from elsewhere without understanding or bothering to do the engineering effort necessary to adapt to the site and earthquake load conditions. The belief is that 200 people working fast is better than 10 people working who know what they are doing. At the Wenchuan Earthquake a large number of bridges collapsed, many with clear design failures. One bridge in particular got knocked off and their solution was to simply pick it up and drop it back in place with minimal modification. I’m given to understand the Chinese example is intensely studied as how not to build in earthquake country. There are over 120 articles in JEE that point out detail aspects of items that were thoughtlessly copied without real understanding though the wording is a lot more neutral. Many of these bridges that suffered pounding damage but stayed upright have now been reopened for use. I have a colleague of mine who designed a bolted OMF structure only to get there and find out that all the bolts had been replaced by welds by the foreman in the field! Nothing was done to fix it and it is still standing out there in Wuhan. Second time around the developers used a local engineer who faithfully copied all the details into a building 3 times as tall!

It is obvious they mistake pastiche for having arrived. When the truth is they have done nothing of the kind.