India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

amit · Post by **amit** » 23 Mar 2012 07:51

^^^^

I wonder, what's the point in posting that load of bile written by Nalapat in Pak Observer?

And you should read this thread and previous avatars of this thread to find out if a-e is true or false.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 23 Mar 2012 11:15

Jarita wrote:Any comments on this

In order to sign the Nuclear Deal the Singh Sonia duo have according to a friend -

This is a accurate summary, most of these issues were explored fully on BRF. Some people agree some dont.

amit · Post by **amit** » 23 Mar 2012 11:54

Sanku wrote:
Jarita wrote:Any comments on this

In order to sign the Nuclear Deal the Singh Sonia duo have according to a friend -
This is a accurate summary, most of these issues were explored fully on BRF. Some people agree some dont.

Why don't you give one sentence or one para or more (your choice) comments on each of the points. I'm sure a lot of people would like to know if you think they are accurate, particularly (d). And also (c) for the matter. And by the way while at it why don't you name the research initiatives that were "curbed or shut down"?

This one should be interesting and entertaining.

PS: Interestingly the url is very rvealing. rajiv.posterousDATcom. We are now down to using such sources to gather accurate summaries and data points.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 23 Mar 2012 20:56

India's Nuclear History: IDSA

IDSA’s Nuclear History Project is pleased to announce the release of 43 documents pertaining to the initial years of India’s nuclear history. The documents, released in association with the Tata Institute of Fundamental Research (TIFR)#, primarily showcases the initial years of nuclear decision making, the organisation of the atomic energy establishment and associated infrastructure, and the dynamics of international cooperation, among others. The highlight of the collection is the correspondence records between Dr. Homi Bhabhi and key personalities including Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru and Dr S.S. Bhatnagar, among others. The collection lists documents that reflects the early debates on nuclear energy, disarmament, nuclear testing, international civilian nuclear cooperation, and narrates through letters and documents the genesis and establishment of national institutions like TIFR, the Atomic Energy Establishment Trombay (AEET)/Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC), and the Department of Atomic Energy (DAE).

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 23 Mar 2012 21:46

Amitji et al - Some News from more reputable sources ... India should pay attention too...

I already posted the Reuters story about IAEA report where they are predicting significant growth in nuclear energy in Asia (despite back lash of Fukushima in Japan, Germany etc..)

US for the first time in decades starting to build new NPP's ...
Meanwhile in Europe per various news media.. ... UK's PM Cameron is backing NEW NPP builds in UK

In a speech in the parliament David Cameron recently said:

Nuclear energy forms the backbone of our low-carbon generation fleet...(and noting that UK's nine operating plants are nearing the end of their lives) ...I'm convinced that we need to press ahead with their replacement."

He also talked about new jobs that this will bring.. just last month UK and France signed Civil Nuclear Deal..

Per BBC news, for example:
UK and France sign nuclear energy agreement

The UK has signed a deal with France to strengthen co-operation in the development of civil nuclear energy.

The government said it reiterated the UK's commitment to nuclear energy "as part of a diversified energy mix".

The coalition said the agreement would create a number of commercial deals in the nuclear energy field, worth more than £500m and creating 1,500 UK jobs.

The deal was signed at a summit between PM David Cameron and President Nicolas Sarkozy in Paris.

'"This joint declaration will signal our shared commitment to the future of civil nuclear power, setting out a shared long term vision of safe, secure, sustainable and affordable energy, that supports growth and helps to deliver our emission reductions targets," a statement from Downing Street said.

Personal relations between Nicolas Sarkozy and David Cameron have not been warm of late.

There have been tetchy remarks flying in both directions, the French irritated by the British veto on the European fiscal treaty, the British annoyed by what seem to be sometimes rather gratuitous criticisms of the UK economy coming out of Paris.
<snip>

The two governments will work together with the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) "to strengthen international capability to react to nuclear emergencies and establish a joint framework for cooperation and exchanging good practice on civil nuclear security".

The move comes 11 months after a tsunami in Japan wrecked the nearby Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant, leaking radioactive material into the air and sea.

UK and French public and private sector bodies in the civil nuclear power industry will also work more closely in a number of areas.

These include education and training, research and development, and security.

"As two great civil nuclear nations, we will combine our expertise to strengthen industrial partnership, improve nuclear safety and create jobs at home," said Mr Cameron.

Eight sites
Last June, ministers announced plans for the next generation of UK nuclear plants.

There are plans to build a new nuclear power plant at Sellafield in Cumbria
The government confirmed a list of eight sites it deems suitable for new power stations by 2025, all of which are adjacent to existing nuclear sites.

The sites are: Bradwell, Essex; Hartlepool; Heysham, Lancashire; Hinkley Point, Somerset; Oldbury, Gloucestershire; Sellafield, Cumbria; Sizewell, Suffolk; and Wylfa, Anglesey.

Rolls-Royce is expected to win a £400m ($632m) share in the building of the first of the planned power plants.

France's Areva will supply the core of the nuclear reactors and Rolls-Royce will supply other engineering work.

"Rolls-Royce will become our prime manufacturing partner to supply some £100m of key critical components of the reactor for each EPR [next generation nuclear power plant] that's constructed in the UK," said Robert Davies from Areva UK.

Rolls-Royce plans to build a factory in Rotherham to meet orders resulting from the deal.

Earlier this month, the US Nuclear Regulatory Commission approved the first nuclear reactors to be built in the country since 1978.

BTW, people like me remember that it is the same Cameron, who famously signaled (in 2006) the end of the Tories support for nuclear power..
(for example, for details see this story

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 23 Mar 2012 22:38

The Sellafield plant in Cumbria, if it happens will be a attempt to salvage this nuclear reproc center which was supposed to serve other countries but didnt.

This is a last ditch desperate attempt to save the nuclear infrastructure by Britain (and also nothing to do with India) but remains to be seen if they can find any use for the nuclear junk

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sellafield

Sellafield is a nuclear reprocessing site, close to the village of Seascale on the coast of the Irish Sea in Cumbria, England. The site is served by Sellafield railway station. Sellafield is an off-shoot from the original nuclear reactor site at Windscale which is currently undergoing decommissioning and dismantling. Calder Hall, another neighbour of Windscale is also undergoing decommissioning and dismantling of its 4 nuclear power generating reactors.

Interestingly, the Sellafield plant has had its chequred history of accidents (like any other of the shitty LWRs)

The Windscale Piles were shut down following a fire in Pile 1 on 10 October 1957 which destroyed the core and released an estimated 750 terabecquerels (20,000 curies) of radioactive material into the surrounding environment, including 22 TBq of Cs-137 and 740 TBq of iodine-131[12] which is taken up in the human body by the thyroid. As a precautionary measure, milk from surrounding farming areas was destroyed. Following the fire, Pile 1 was unserviceable, and Pile 2, although undamaged by the fire, was shut down as a precaution,[11] by which time UK had enough plutonium for some atomic bombs and work was progressing well at the Fast Breeder Reactor at Dounreay.
In the 1990s, the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority started to implement plans to decommission, disassemble and clean up both piles; the decommissioning is now partially complete. In 2004 Pile 1 still contained about 15 tonnes (14.76 L/T) of uranium fuel, and final completion of the decommissioning is not expected until at least 2037.[11]

Continuing with extremely high standards of Nuclear safety seen in the industy (as defined by some) the plants there

Between 1950 and 2000 there have been 21 serious incidents or accidents involving some off-site radiological releases that merited a rating on the International Nuclear Event Scale, one at level 5, five at level 4 and fifteen at level 3. Additionally during the 1950s and 1960s there were protracted periods of known, deliberate, discharges to the atmosphere of plutonium and irradiated uranium oxide particulates.[44] These frequent incidents, together with the large 2005 Thorp plant leak which was not detected for nine months, have led some to doubt the effectiveness of the managerial processes and safety culture on the site over the years.

READ IT ALL, FASCINATING READING FOR SELLAFIELD

Rgs

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 23 Mar 2012 23:36

IIRC the Nuclear operator in UK is essentially bankrupt. Mostly due to the staggering costs of operating these plants. Conveniently cleanup will be borne by the UK taxpayer with a blank cheque. Yes, one bankrupt agency signing a deal with another agency losing money and sucking money from its government. It was the UK that reported that just commercial insurance for its new plants was running at 14-18 Cents per kwh. This was before Fukushima at which point the entire enterprise collapsed.

This is a constant issue with nuclear, anytime they face commercial reality the whole the thing collapses.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 23 Mar 2012 23:53

^^^

Sellafield is now a typical cost of "damn if you do, damned if yout dont"

The humongous amount of radioactive waste + dead and dying old crappy nuclear infrastructure is a mill stone (economically & safety wise) around their neck.

They cant dispose of the poision, and they cant live with it.

Building B30, colloquially known as dirty thirty, is a pond which was used to store spent fuel from MAGNOX power stations. The pond is 20m wide, 150m long and 6m deep. Birds can land on its surface and take small amounts of radioactive substances with them. The pond was used from 1960 until 1986. A confinement wall is scheduled to be built in the future to help it withstand earthquakes. The pool is to be emptied and dismantled in years to come.

pb]It is impossible to determine exactly how much radioactive waste is stored in B30; algae is forming in the pool, making visual examinations difficult.[/b]

It is thought the pool also contains waste from the Tokai Mura plant (Japan).[62]

Radiation around the pool can get so high that a person is not allowed to stay more than 2 minutes, seriously affecting decommissioning.[63] The pool is not watertight, time and weather have created cracks in the concrete, letting contaminated water leak.

And it gets better of course

The MOX Demonstration Facility was a small-scale plant to produce commercial quality MOX fuel for light water reactors. The plant was commissioned between 1992 and 1994, and until 1999 produced fuel for use in Switzerland, Germany and Japan.
In 1999 it was discovered that the plant's staff had been falsifying some quality assurance data since 1996.[75] A Nuclear Installations Inspectorate (NII) investigation concluded four of the five work-shifts were involved in the falsification, though only one worker admitted to falsifying data, and that "the level of control and supervision ... had been virtually non existent.". The NII stated that the safety performance of the fuel was not affected as there was also a primary automated check on the fuel. Nevertheless "in a plant with the proper safety culture, the events described in this report could not have happened" and there were systematic failures in management.[76]

And since we are talking of projections

In 2003 it was announced that the Thorp reprocessing plant would be closed in 2010. Originally predicted to make profits for BNFL of £500m, by 2003 it had made losses of over £1bn.[81] Subsequently Thorp was closed for almost two years from 2005, after a leak had been undetected for 9 months. Production eventually restarted at the plant in early 2008; but almost immediately had to be put on hold again, for an underwater lift that takes the fuel for reprocessing to be repaired.[82]

And of course since the nuclear industry gets its projections so accurately all the time the following was only to be expected

Designed with a plant capacity of 120 tonnes/year, it achieved a total output of only 5 tonnes during its first five years of operation.[30] In 2008 orders for the plant had to be fulfilled at COGEMA in France,[31] and the plant was reported in the media as "failed"[32][33] with a total build and operation cost of £1.2 billion.[34]

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 23 Mar 2012 23:57

In general:

I am so glad Amber G brought up Sellafield though entirely unrelated to Indian nuclear News and discussion (the current thread) if she had not, how could we have discussed the saga of under-reporting, fraud, radioactive accidents and general SNAFU at at Sellafield, and which are hall mark of US, UK and Japanese Nuclear power generation programs.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 24 Mar 2012 02:38

^^^ And the point of comparing a 1950/60s era nuclear design with a modern nuclear plant is?

If I use this logic, we should shut down *all* chemical plants in India given our experience with Union Carbide. I wonder why Sanku et al do not advocate that.

Earlier Sanku used to say he supported indigenous NPPs but not foreign ones. Looks like now you are saying all NPPs are bad, period?

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 24 Mar 2012 02:44

Sanku wrote:In general:

I am so glad Amber G brought up Sellafield though entirely unrelated to Indian nuclear News and discussion (the current thread) if she had not, how could we have discussed the saga of under-reporting, fraud, radioactive accidents and general SNAFU at at Sellafield, and which are hall mark of US, UK and Japanese Nuclear power generation programs.

Interesting ... Couple of points:

Why not include Russia in this? After all they are the only ones to have a design that was so fundamentally flawed that it has caused the biggest nuclear incident till date. Why should we buy VVERs then by that logic?

How do you know Indian NPPs are good (in the past you have not objected to these) and safe? Arent these certified by the very same scientists that are liars, traitors and frauds since they lied on the nuclear bomb issue? IF they can lie (as per you) on such a critical topic why should we believe them on the safety of NPPs?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Mar 2012 22:05

Something is odd for GOI to say this now:

India says nuke terrorism a continuing concern

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 24 Mar 2012 22:09

^^ TSPA loose nuke theory and the maal being kept in TTP territory? Baloch instability?

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 25 Mar 2012 15:40

The nuclear summit is about lapse security on nuclear materials and falling intO the wrong hands. Obama just used the example of AQ getting a dirty bomb and using it in a city.

The SK leader talked about these 15 nations pooling intelligence and coordinating on loose nukes and loose materials. (Incidentally 54 nations will be attending the summit - so looks like there are side agreements before the summit starts).

The side issue is disarmament.

So the target here is NK, Pak and maybe Russia. India was on the list but I think IAEA has come in and helped improve the situation.

NK said if there is any mention of their name in the summit they will take it as a declaration of war. LOL!

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 25 Mar 2012 22:14

Tanaji wrote:^^^ And the point of comparing a 1950/60s era nuclear design with a modern nuclear plant is?

If I use this logic, we should shut down *all* chemical plants in India given our experience with Union Carbide. I wonder why Sanku et al do not advocate that.

Earlier Sanku used to say he supported indigenous NPPs but not foreign ones. Looks like now you are saying all NPPs are bad, period?

Tanaji; Amber G posted some data about Sellafield. So I thought I will provide the complete picture of the full status and the issues involved at Sellafield, along with challenges, motivations and reasons with attempts to start the operations there. (Multiple times)

Why are you getting upset with me?

Meanwhile one clarification

Arent these certified by the very same scientists

No not the same scientists. No. -- The situation is Indian nuclear industry, was thankfully quite different.

Though it remains to be seen if the damages brought about by 123 are too deep or whether it can maintain the difference. (I will not insult anyone's intelligence by trying to highlight the difference)

Sanatanan · Post by **Sanatanan** » 26 Mar 2012 07:39

Uranium from eight sites soon to fuel nuclear reactors

The department of atomic energy (DAE) has identified eight sites in India to mine uranium to fuel nuclear reactors in the country.

In an informal {?} chat with Deccan Chronicle on the sidelines of the 14th annual graduation day at St Joseph’s College of Engineering on Sunday, K. Ramamurthy, station director, Madras Atomic Power Station, said that DAE had identified eight sites, including Tumalapalli in Andhra Pradesh and Jaduguda in Jharkand to fuel existing and upcoming nuclear reactors.

“Even though we have abundant uranium reserves in the north-eastern part of our country we are not able to exploit them due to the local extremist problem”, he said
. . .

I guess this may be the first admission of guilt about false propaganda unleashed saying that Nat U is not available in the country, one which many want to believe.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 26 Mar 2012 08:14

What that DAE does not mention is that all these sites have very very low Uranium concentrations. All are less than 0.06% which is barely economically viable. Meaning high electricity cost and lots of toxic tailings for little Uranium. Also all the other deposits put together are only about 1/3 the size of 150,000 Tummulapalle deposit. So what would be the point exactly. Wasn't 123 supposed to free us from all these complications or is DAE starting to see the writing on the wall. Esp. now that AREVA is squeezing the money out of them for Jaitapur.

Also the reason the rest of the country is not too hot on Uranium mines has to do with what is going on in Singhbhum WRT the radioactive tailings ponds. The Uranium tailings has been dumped into unlined, earthen embankment ponds that threaten to collapse at every monsoon. When people demand action saying this situation is untenable the DAE's response is that as long as people stay on the other side of the Bund all is well and that there have been no leaks so far.

The problem with nuclear power, as we found out in Fukushima, is that the very first leak can essentially permanently make large areas uninhabitable. But DAE is not required to change its ways. Yet.

----------------------------------------

Meanwhile things rumble on...

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/channels ... -kaiga-833

Seer opposes commissioning of 2 more reactors at Kaiga

Gangadharendra Saraswathi Swamiji of Sonda-Swarnavalli has said that the Kaiga authorities should stop the commissioning of two more reactors until Tata Memorial Centre and other agencies complete their survey of health risks posed by Kaiga Atomic Power Station. Delivering his speech after interactive session between environmentalists and Kaiga scientists on reports of cancer deaths surrounding the plant site, he warned that the authorities will have to face the public outrage if they went ahead with the project.

--------------------------------------------------------

The Honorable FM must consider that perhaps it is his government policies that have created this no-trust situation.

People whose skulls are cracked, so foreign suppliers can be paid of and fat cats can get cheap power tend to hold grudges. Look for opposition to get worse much earlier in the game.

http://business-standard.com/india/news ... ab/469043/

Finance Minister Pranab Mukherjee on Sunday asked how energy-short India could solve its power problems with so many agitations against nuclear and hydel projects.

“Almost every state which earlier showed interest for nuclear power has agitation against land acquisition because some accident happened in some part of the world.... In the case of hydel, three projects starting from Lohari Nagpala to upstream of 100 km of Bhagirathi, we have had to abandon,” he said at a post-Budget interaction with the Confederation of Indian Industry.

“After the civil cooperation agreement (between India and the US, on nuclear power) for which we risked existence of our government, the pact has started yielding rich dividend. We have entered into arrangements with three countries, but domestic agitations are going on.”

The finance minister said the issues facing the Kudankulam nuclear power project in Tamil Nadu had been sorted out, but production loss had happened. And, protests are reportedly still on against the project.

Without naming anyone, Mukherjee said one man went on a fast demanding not only projects up to 100 km from Gangotri, but even run-of-the-river ones, be abandoned. “Three existing power plants where investments had been made by NHPC to the tune of Rs 700 crore have been abandoned,” he said.

Environment scientist G D Agrawal on Friday broke his fast protesting against projects along the Ganga in Uttarakhand after the government promised to convene a meeting of the National Ganga River Basin Authority next month.

“The biggest problem faced by the Ganga is that 90 per cent of its ‘blood’ (water) is sucked by dams and other illegal activities taking place on its banks,” Agrawal had said.

Mukherjee said exploitation of hydro power was becoming more and more difficult and capacity building in the nuclear sector was getting complicated. Sources of energy other than coal-fired plants had to be tapped to make India power-sufficient. He noted there was hardly any Five-Year Plan where targets had been met. In the 11th Plan (2007-08 to 2011-12), the target was to generate 78,000 Mw, which was later cut to 62,000 Mw. Finally, the Plan would end with an additional 54,000-55,000 Mw.

vic · Post by **vic** » 26 Mar 2012 10:15

TOIlet has reported today on Front page that South Korea has offered nuclerar reactors to India, will it change the logjam due to high prices of France, refusal of Japan and duplicity of USA?

Sanatanan · Post by **Sanatanan** » 26 Mar 2012 10:21

South Korea offers India nuke reactors

Given the delays in working out a nuclear deal with Japan, which is holding up deals with France among others, some quarters in India feel Korean reactors could be the answer.

If I recollect correctly, there were "quarters" who even wanted India to import from abroad machines to process bovine rear-end semi-solid ejections.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Mar 2012 14:57

So when did the Koreans become past masters in the nuclear art? That is other than the lately lamented Dear Leader Kim! The SoKos are notorious for the big "C". Their corporate world is rife with cases of huge kickbacks,etc. Our "honourable" PM should remember this when he attempts to engage the SoKos in providing us with N-tech or other major defence wares.He is already upto his turban in scams,the latest one involving the "grimy" affair of coal.

alexis · Post by **alexis** » 26 Mar 2012 15:36

Jarita wrote:Any comments on this

In order to sign the Nuclear Deal the Singh Sonia duo have according to a friend -
a) shut down the research reactor "Dhruv" (if I remember right),
b) put curbs on or closed down several other research initiatives in which India led global nuclear research, including advanced work on the indigenous Fast Breeder reactors,
c) separated the "civil" from the "military" research and hence doubled costs, halved the number of people working on meaningful projects, and split their synergy,
d) permitted existing scientists and former members of India's nuclear infrastructure to join private multinational projects in India (read "brain drain" or "sellout of India's nuclear secrets", and yes we do have many secrets, innovations that no other country in the world can yet match!),
e) promoted the perception that Fast-Breeder technology (in which India leads) is a pipe dream and must be replaced by existing (obsolete by 40 years) nuclear plant designs,
Any Comments – on a to e.

http://rajeev.posterous.com/archive/7/2011?page=3

The link has no credibility.
a) Cirrus reactor was shut down. Is Dhruva the same? Anyway it is not a cutting edge technology reactor; it was provided by Canada in 1960.
b) no news like that is there
c) may be true if manpower is not allowed to be exchanged; however no such news is there.
d) no idea - however, if a scientist wants to join pvt sector, i dont think government can stop it (may delay to an extent)
e) perception? i have not seen any reports the fast breeder technology is a pipe dream. It is extremely challenging and would take a lot more time.

Please note that India used a Canadian supplied reactor and US supplied nuclear fuel to conduct a nuclear explosion. India has guarded its core interests and will continue to do so.

amit · Post by **amit** » 26 Mar 2012 16:14

alexis wrote:
Jarita wrote:Any comments on this

In order to sign the Nuclear Deal the Singh Sonia duo have according to a friend -
a) shut down the research reactor "Dhruv" (if I remember right),
b) put curbs on or closed down several other research initiatives in which India led global nuclear research, including advanced work on the indigenous Fast Breeder reactors,
c) separated the "civil" from the "military" research and hence doubled costs, halved the number of people working on meaningful projects, and split their synergy,
d) permitted existing scientists and former members of India's nuclear infrastructure to join private multinational projects in India (read "brain drain" or "sellout of India's nuclear secrets", and yes we do have many secrets, innovations that no other country in the world can yet match!),
e) promoted the perception that Fast-Breeder technology (in which India leads) is a pipe dream and must be replaced by existing (obsolete by 40 years) nuclear plant designs,
Any Comments – on a to e.

http://rajeev.posterous.com/archive/7/2011?page=3
The link has no credibility.
a) Cirrus reactor was shut down. Is Dhruva the same? Anyway it is not a cutting edge technology reactor; it was provided by Canada in 1960.
b) no news like that is there
c) may be true if manpower is not allowed to be exchanged; however no such news is there.
d) no idea - however, if a scientist wants to join pvt sector, i dont think government can stop it (may delay to an extent)
e) perception? i have not seen any reports the fast breeder technology is a pipe dream. It is extremely challenging and would take a lot more time.

Please note that India used a Canadian supplied reactor and US supplied nuclear fuel to conduct a nuclear explosion. India has guarded its core interests and will continue to do so.

Alexis,

I'd just like to point out that IMO, posting this piece of rubbish on this thread and having others saying its "accurate" representation are just strawmen arguments meant to hide a basic fallacy/inaccuracy in their original meme. So IMO it's best to ignore it.

For example there is no private sector, much less "multinationals" in the nuclear industry in India. All nuclear installations - whether civilian or strategic - are/will be owned by GoI through its various arms. In the case of the nuclear power plants, they are owned by the Nuclear Power Corporation of India Ltd and are being built under their supervision. All that the "foreign" companies are doing is supplying the reactors and related knowhow. Other foreign construction companies may (or may not) help in building the power plant.

But at the end of the day, the installation will be GoI entity and everyone working their will be public sector employees. Folks who are spreading this canard (and I include all the points in that list) and others who find it "accurate" either don't know what they are talking about or are catering to a specific agenda.

JMT.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 26 Mar 2012 16:17

amit wrote:
I'd just like to point out that IMO, posting this piece of rubbish on this thread and having others saying its "accurate" representation are just strawmen arguments meant to hide a basic fallacy/inaccuracy in their original meme. So IMO it's best to ignore it.

Calling some thing as rubbish is a rubbish piece of defense. (or if you prefer, ad nauseum)

amit · Post by **amit** » 26 Mar 2012 16:25

Sanku wrote:Calling some thing as rubbish is a rubbish piece of defense. (or if you prefer, ad nauseum)

Instead of venting why don't answer my previous questions to you.

To repeat, why and how do you find these two (just taking two examples, you can answer the full list if you choose) to be an "accurate summary"?

c) separated the "civil" from the "military" research and hence doubled costs, halved the number of people working on meaningful projects, and split their synergy,

d) permitted existing scientists and former members of India's nuclear infrastructure to join private multinational projects in India (read "brain drain" or "sellout of India's nuclear secrets", and yes we do have many secrets, innovations that no other country in the world can yet match!),

If it looks soiled, sounds like hatchet job and smells bad, it's more likely to be rubbish than be pearls of wisdom, na?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 26 Mar 2012 16:30

alexis wrote: The link has no credibility.

Alexis, the credibility of the link is immaterial, the points can be considered for their own merit and discussed and accepted or discarded. (Even highly credible links are handled thus) -- however clearly you have not let the credibility or lack thereof of the link from applying your thoughts, this is welcome.

Since you seem to have seen good reason in trying to take a measured approach of examining a point by yourself, here is my take

a) Cirrus reactor was shut down. Is Dhruva the same? Anyway it is not a cutting edge technology reactor; it was provided by Canada in 1960.

CIRUS was indeed shut down, and that too just after its refurbishment with significant life left. (Many reactors in the world today operate and are older/worse off than CIRCUS)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIRUS_reactor

CIRUS was shut down in September 1997 for refurbishment and was scheduled to resume operation in 2003. The reactor was brought back into operation two years late in 2005. During refurbishing, a low-temperature vacuum evaporation-based desalination unit was also coupled to the reactor to serve as demonstration of using waste heat from a research reactor for sea desalination. Even if the reactor has a life of twenty more years, India had declared that this reactor would be shut down by 2010 in accordance with the Indo-US nuclear accord reached between Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and US President George W. Bush.[4] The reactor was shut down on 31 December 2010.[5]

A criminal waste of 20 years of a precious resource, one of the chief scientific facilities in India.

b) put curbs on or closed down several other research....
no news like that is there

There are definite curbs in terms of the Hyde acts. The Hyde act clearly specifies what India may or may not do for the 123 act to continue. Sonia-Man mohan combo have signed on despite clear such constraints.

Also the allocation to research in Nuclear Industry continues to be a matter of concern, there are evidences to suggest that lower budgetary allocations have in turn effected research.

c) may be true if manpower is not allowed to be exchanged; however no such news is there.

Manpower exchange is only one facet of synergy, there are many other forms. Shared labs, documents other facilities. Also the man power sharing becomes difficult as they are now in different parts or divisions.

e) perception? i have not seen any reports the fast breeder technology is a pipe dream. It is extremely challenging and would take a lot more time.

Well the time lines for FBR etc are now pushed out and continue to keep getting pushed out.

Please note that India used a Canadian supplied reactor and US supplied nuclear fuel to conduct a nuclear explosion. India has guarded its core interests and will continue to do so.

Different India, different leaders. These leaders have turned around the old policy 180*.

Cant compare

=============================================

Overall the list is a fairly correct and accurate list of what exactly was wrong with the whole 123 snake oil.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 26 Mar 2012 16:33

amit wrote:
Sanku wrote:Calling some thing as rubbish is a rubbish piece of defense. (or if you prefer, ad nauseum)
Instead of venting why don't answer my previous questions to you.

Sir, kindly do not confuse everyone with yourself. You vent and what not. But because you do, there is no reason to assume everyone else is the same.

The answers are there, read.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 26 Mar 2012 16:39

Reality check on much-touted wind power.

Green Power: Wind power does not help to avert climate change

When the adoption rate reaches bigger numbers, the real costs stare at you. Drop the subsidies and then look at what the greens originally said.

In fact, this is a highly problematic claim. While wind energy is cheaper than other, more ineffective renewables, such as solar, tidal and ethanol, it is nowhere near competitive. If it were, we wouldn't have to keep spending significant sums to subsidise it.

In the UK, for example, wind remains significantly more costly than other energy sources. Using the UK Electricity Generation Costs 2010 update and measuring in cost per produced kw-hour, wind is still 20-200% more expensive than the cheapest fossil-fuel options. And this is a significant underestimate.

AND WHO THE PECK SAYS local opposition is limited only to nuclear power.

As the UK and other developed countries have rushed to build more wind turbines, they have naturally started with the windiest places, leaving poorer sites for later. At the same time, people increasingly protest against the wind farms in their backyards. Local opposition has tripled over the past three years, and local approval rates for new wind farms have sunk to an all-time low

Time to kick the green-flag-bearing nuts in the ...er nuts

And the benefits, in terms of tackling global warming, would be measly: a reduction of just 86 megatons of CO2 per year for two decades. In terms of averted rise in temperature, this would be completely insignificant. Using a standard climate model, by 2100, the UK's huge outlay will have postponed global warming by just over 10 days.

So on top of existing subsidies, we must invest in backup solutions too?

Moreover, this estimate is undoubtedly too optimistic. Wind frequently does not blow when we need it. For example, as the BBC reported, the cold weather on December 21, 2010, was typical of a prolonged cold front, with high-pressure areas and little wind. Whereas wind power, on average, supplies 5% of the UK's electricity, its share fell to just 0.04% that day. With demand understandably peaking, other sources, such as coal and gas, had to fill the gap.

Making up for a 5% shortfall in supply is manageable, but the situation will change dramatically as the UK increases its reliance on wind power to reach the 31% target by 2020. Wind power becomes much more expensive when we factor in the large supplies of power that must be created for backup whenever the wind dies down.

Read it all peeps. this ain't no powerpoint stuff from 1995 or 2000. This is from real country operating real wind farms (and going real bankrupt in doing so)

amit · Post by **amit** » 26 Mar 2012 16:48

Sanku wrote:The answers are there, read.

Yup! And I can see even my Grand Ma can be a nooklear "expert". All she needs to do is say Hyde is coming, Hyde is coming, 123 BOO! Shiver in your dhoti you SDRE!

However, she doesn't know that the Hyde Act is just a piece of paper when it comes to non-US power plants. But then that's what makes her an "expert"

And I'm still waiting for the names of the "multinational" companies who have been given permission to set up nooklear power plants in India. Even my Grand Ma is clueless on that one.

I guess that's the reason there are "experts" and then there are the "experts"!

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 26 Mar 2012 17:18

Amit, jumping up and down with personal insults does not help anything you know.

(Waise why so derisive/hard on your grandmom? I though we Indians treated and referred to them with respect -- I am curious, feel free to reply in OT thread.)

amit · Post by **amit** » 26 Mar 2012 18:26

Re my Grand Ma, true my bad.

She had a far more sensible head on her shoulders, than being displayed here. She tried to understand something before indulging in verbal diarreah!

But then she was an intelligent lady. A some point some basic intelligence is needed in order not to be and sound foolish.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 26 Mar 2012 20:09

Amit, Neela et al -

Quite recently at UCSF there was a symposium which had worlds top experts with analysis of all data collected for last year in Japan. If some one is interested, I do have some power point slides but probably it will be available through standard sources and for interested people (specially Radiation oncologists, doctors, physicists and other scientists) it is worth reading.

(I may post later about this)

Meanwhile, an interesting article caught my eye, I am posting it here because there is some learning for India.
It talks about real dangers of anti-nuclear hysteria...quite apparent even here in BRF, and India has paid price in peoples life by agitations prompted by people talking what will be called utter rubbish in any scientific circle.

While not one person has reportedly died from the nuclear leak, people did die as a result of the anti-nuclear hysteria

(I am, obviously, not in agreement with everything this article says and my political leaning may be a pole apart but still the following parts certainly are worth paying attention to. People, even in India have died due to anti-nuclear hysteria propagated by these people )

Nuke panic vs. real disaster

BY LOUIS MARTIN
This month marks the one-year anniversary of the so-called nuclear disaster in Fukushima, Japan, which touched off an international hue and cry from opponents of nuclear power that has overshadowed the real colossal social disaster wrought by capitalism.
Some 20,000 people were killed and tens of thousands more injured in the wake of a massive tsunami triggered by a 9.0 earthquake. The figure is staggering...
...

Despite all this, zero is the number of people who have reportedly died as a result of nuclear radiation poisoning related to the Fukushima plant. Another striking figure, given the combination of the bosses’ recklessness and the destructive power of earthquakes and tsunamis. The basic facts about what is considered the second worst nuclear disaster in world history actually provides a very strong argument against the assertion that nuclear power presents a special inherent danger to humanity.

The so-called environmentalist opposition to nuclear power—or other forms of energy—is anti-scientific ...

While not one person has reportedly died from the nuclear leak, people did die as a result of the anti-nuclear hysteria promoted by the government. According to recent coverage of the events by the New York Times, an unknown number of tsunami survivors—people trapped in the rubble, sick people, elderly and others unable to leave on their own—“probably starved to death” as the government ordered rescuers to evacuate the area for weeks “for fear of radiation.”

Link:nuke panic vs. real disaster

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 26 Mar 2012 21:10

Meanwhile , when all is said and done, sane people do not get scared by all the rubbish propagated by non-scientific people. All thinking people in India should pay attention to these happenings, as it is very relevant to this topic.

Here is a news item from Canada:
Restart of refurbished Point Lepreau approaches

NB Power has received permission from the Canadian nuclear regulator to load fuel into the refurbished single-unit Point Lepreau plant in New Brunswick. The Candu reactor is expected to restart later this year, having been offline for over four years.

Not too long ago, I put a news item here, where USA after all the decades of not adding NPP started its work on NPP. Every patriotic and sane Indian should pay attention to Nobel prize winner Chu's comments , as they mirror the thinking of best minds in India too.
U.S. Energy Secretary Tours Plant Vogtle, Makes Policy Change Announcement

This, of course, is thinking of our own, like Sri Kumar Banejee etc..
India's commitment to nuclear energy remains strong as the country looks ahead to decades of sustained growth, New Delhi conference delegates have been told by leaders of the country's program.
India International Nuclear Symposium held in New Delhi and attended by Srikumar Banerjee , Anil Kakodkar etc

So it is not surprising that in Asia about 100% growth in nuclear Energy is predicted over next few decades by IAEA. "significant" nuclear growth despite Fukushima

But it is not Asia only. Not North America only... Europe is also joining ...
UK and France sign nuclear energy agreement
UK's PM Cameron is backing NEW NPP builds in UK

Of course, USA and China are also cooperating, in what is one major news item
SC plant readies nuclear fuel for China's first AP1000 reactor

Most sane people are less interested in throwing gaalis on Indian scientists and more interested in making India go ahead and shine. ... Most are not going to be scared by "evils of nuclear radiation" no matter how hard they try to spin.

Again this recent item is highly recommended, if we have to understand how NPP's may effect us.

Fukushima and Chernobyl: Myth versus Reality

If there is an interest, I will post a few items which, I believe, are extremely important for people to pay attention to.
(I encourage people to read about it, using their own resources, even if I do not post it here)

Jai Hind.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 26 Mar 2012 21:49

^^^ Another recent news item, this time from Finland..India should watch.,..,
Teollisuuden Voima (TVO) expects bids for a new nuclear power plant unit at the beginning of 2013

Five suppliers involved in bidding process for Olkiluoto 4 project

The Finnish nuclear power company Teollisuuden Voima (TVO) has started a bidding process for their Olkiluoto 4 project as a part of the bidding and engineering phase.
Bids for the new nuclear power plant to be located at Olkiluoto in Eura on Finland’s west coast are expected at the beginning of 2013.
TVO reported on Friday that there are five plant supplier alternatives at the bidding phase of the OL4 project, namely the French installation company Areva, the American GE Hitachi, Korea Hydro & Nuclear Power in South Korea, as well as Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Toshiba in Japan.

Areva is the supplier of the Olkiluoto 3 nuclear reactor that is currently under construction.
TVO and Areva have been arguing about the current project for many reasons, including the fact that the third reactor (a third generation pressurized water reactor (PWR) design of 1,600 MWe output) has experienced major delays and the schedules have not held up.
The OL3 project was to be completed in 2009, but according to the most recent estimate, Finland’s fifth reactor will be ready to go online only in 2014.

According to Senior Vice President Janne Mokka, the head of the OL4 project organisation, TVO is not willing to take a stand on whether the difficulties and problems experienced by the Olkiluoto 3 project will have any influence on the possibilities of Areva's involvement.
”We will try to conduct a bidding process that is as objective as possible”, Mokka says.
There is a construction site already for the new unit in Olkiluoto as well as a power plant infrastructure that supports the project, Mokka notes further.

TVO is to submit an application for a building permit by the summer of 2015. In April 2010, Finland’s previous government decided to grant a permit to IVO for the construction of a new reactor in Olkiluoto. The decision was approved by Parliament in July 2010.
According to TVO, the electric power of the new plant unit will be in the range of 1,450 to 1,750 MWe, while the projected operational life time of the new reactor is at least 60 years.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 26 Mar 2012 22:13

It would have perhaps been useful to read the above posted articles if they did not come peppered with forth and the mouth low level behavior.

Also if a single article would have talked about "this is being done" rather than "this is the projection (just like their projections at numerous other places no doubt) for 2020" it would have been nice too.

As well, I will still be here in 2020, most prob. Dekhte hain (lets see) -- have already lived to see the fraud of 123 openly exposed.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 27 Mar 2012 06:51

If Hollande wins as all the polls show as happening, he is committed to cutting Nuclear power in France by 50% from the present 80%.

So AREVA will be selling India technology its own country no longer even wants. There is every likely hood that India will be left holding unusable equipment.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 27 Mar 2012 08:19

Tamil Nadu: Chidambaram exposes secret of Kudankulam protest

People’s Movement Against Nuclear Energy (PMANE) president SP Udayakumar earlier had said that Tamil Nadu Chief Minister J Jayalalithaa encouraged the anti-nuclear protest and without her support, the protest could not have sustained in the state.

In an interview to Mail Today, Udayakumar said, "It is she who encouraged us. Without her support we could not have continued the struggle," adding that he demanded for the release of 18 anti-nuclear protestors. After Chidambaram's statement about "ulterior motive", speculations have been surfaced saying - was he trying to hint something regarding Jayalalithaa?

Kudankulam: Chidambaram says ulterior motive behind stir

External Affairs Minister SM Krishna had also made a statement on the resolution in Parliament, he said. India last week voted for the US-sponsored resolution at the UN's top human rights body censuring Sri Lanka for alleged rights violations during the war against LTTE after persuading the resolution-sponsor to make two changes in the draft so that it became "non-intrusive" and contributes to political reconciliation process in the island

Congress had not betrayed the interests of Tamils in Sri Lanka, he said

interesting headlines but is probably telling.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 27 Mar 2012 08:52

Russia says near deal on two new Indian reactors
Russians laughing all the way to the bank

VOLGINSKY, Russia (Reuters) - Russia's ability to restart long-delayed work at the Kudankulam nuclear plant in Tamil Nadu has paved the way for a deal with India to build two more atomic reactors in the near future, Russia's nuclear chief said on Wednesday.The first two reactors at the plant were meant to be operational last year, but work by Russian engineers was delayed after protesters blocked access to the site following Japan's nuclear catastrophe.Work to launch the reactors restarted on Tuesday, however, after police arrested dozens of protesters."The resolution of the political dispute over the first two reactors paves the road to sign the agreement on the third and fourth (nuclear) generators," Sergei Kiriyenko, the head of Russian state nuclear monopoly Rosatom, told Reuters.
"The decision (on the third and fourth) reactors was linked to the launch of the first and second generators."
Kiriyenko said Moscow was ready to sign the agreement with India on the third and fourth reactors "starting tomorrow," adding he already had initial political approval for the project despite the fact that talks have dragged on for years.However, he ruled out sealing the deal during President Dmitry Medvedev's visit to India for a summit of the BRICS group of nations.Russia is keen to cash in on its nuclear know-how and has ambitious plans to triple nuclear exports to $50 billion a year by 2030. It possesses about 40 percent of the world's uranium enrichment capacity, and exports some $3 billion worth of fuel a year, offering discounts to clients who buy its reactors.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 27 Mar 2012 10:44

Theo_Fidel wrote:If Hollande wins as all the polls show as happening, he is committed to cutting Nuclear power in France by 50% from the present 80%.

So AREVA will be selling India technology its own country no longer even wants. There is every likely hood that India will be left holding unusable equipment.

Hopefully it will happen soon, before we actually import anything, and thus make the anti-import argument stronger while there is still time to carry out course correction from the suicidal 123 path that Man mohan has thrust the country on.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 27 Mar 2012 11:04

haha...ha

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 27 Mar 2012 11:23

Sanku wrote:
Theo_Fidel wrote:If Hollande wins as all the polls show as happening, he is committed to cutting Nuclear power in France by 50% from the present 80%.

So AREVA will be selling India technology its own country no longer even wants. There is every likely hood that India will be left holding unusable equipment.
Hopefully it will happen soon, before we actually import anything, and thus make the anti-import argument stronger while there is still time to carry out course correction from the suicidal 123 path that Man mohan has thrust the country on.

The frenchies are very pragmatic, money minded and practical people without any commercial vestige of conscience.

They will never reduce nuclear power generation, come what may.

They well know that they cannot sell equipment if they do not use it themselves or even reduce the usage in france.

My own experience of decades with french technology (non nuke) is that it is excellent even if it is very expensive. It always works. I would not have much doubts on the technology front.