Indian Army : News and Discussion

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 27 Mar 2012 13:39

Gen. Singh's supporters said he had, by informing Mr. Antony, complied with Section 317 of the Defence Services Regulations of 1986, which make it “the duty of every officer to bring to the notice of his superior, and if the superior is involved, then to the next superior officer, all cases of dishonesty.”

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... epage=true

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 27 Mar 2012 13:43

The crucial thing would be to nail the shareholders of Tatra Sipox (UK) Ltd.

SRoy · Post by **SRoy** » 27 Mar 2012 14:00

Opposition (Jaitely et al) are not yet asking the most imprtant question...why the **** do we need to import trucks? Yes, its the perfect occassion to ask this question.

The second question is why the RM did not institute a probe then and there? Army is not Gen VKS's personal estate. If a bribery attempt has occured under the RM's watch, then its imperative he gets investigate whether the COAS finds it pleasant or not. RM is trying to spin his way out.

PS: Its not just the Army, hordes of Kraz's, Ural's and Zil's still operated by IAF with SAM squadrons, not sure why indigenous trucks cannot be used.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 27 Mar 2012 14:39

From unpleasant it may turn ugly. Retired Lieutenant-General Tejinder Singh files defamation suit against Army chief...

http://daily.bhaskar.com/article/NAT-TO ... 23190.html

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 27 Mar 2012 14:50

Utmost probity to be maintained in defence procurement: Antony

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 27 Mar 2012 15:15

I have only one question. When the Army Chief complains about bribes being offrered to him in a deal is it enough for the defense minister to just ask the Chief to take action by himself? I mean what is the real issue here? Is it getting the person who made the bribr offer arrested or is it about large sclae corruption involving a PSU under MOD? How can Mr. Antony wash his hands just like that? And on top of that everyone is blaming VKS for not filing FIR. Ridiculous.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 27 Mar 2012 15:17

theres some big time political game being played here, VKS is getting back at the government for previous actions
none of the politicos will be clean re this issue, and sadly some of the army too will be tainted

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 27 Mar 2012 15:22

Dilbu wrote:I have only one question. When the Army Chief complains about bribes being offrered to him in a deal is it enough for the defense minister to just ask the Chief to take action by himself? I mean what is the real issue here? Is it getting the person who made the bribr offer arrested or is it about large sclae corruption involving a PSU under MOD? How can Mr. Antony wash his hands just like that? And on top of that everyone is blaming VKS for not filing FIR. Ridiculous.

Without FIR, there is no case.

Pranav wrote:
In 1987, BEML had signed an agreement with Omnipol Foreign Trade Corporation, then part of the erstwhile Czechoslovakia. Under that agreement, the licensor, Omnipol, was to furnish all assembly and production drawings of Tatra for Rs3 crore by March 1997. But 25 years later, BEML has not been able to buy the trucks on its own.

The defence procurement guidelines clearly say all purchases should be made from the original equipment manufacturer. But BEML has been dealing with Tatra Sipox (UK) Ltd, which is neither the OEM nor a subsidiary of the OEM.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_ge ... on_1667857

The info in bold is wrong. The company was incorporated in 1994 and is based in Richmond, the United Kingdom. Tatra Sipox (UK) Ltd. operates as a subsidiary of TATRA, a.s.

Added later.......

The address tatra Sipox is situated on is called Vectra House. Vectra groups owns Tatra is Czech republic. So its legit.

However, the corruption allegation can be right.

It just occurred to me that Army Aviation Corps plan to buy 197 helicopters was cancelled due to vectra group involvement? Right?

Also a Tajender Singh was involved in the helio deal?

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 27 Mar 2012 16:07

Solid proof or whatever. Army-chief-has-concrete-proof-against-the-lobbyist-sources-close-to-gen...

http://www.newsbullet.in/india/34-more/ ... ose-to-gen

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 27 Mar 2012 16:35

I feel VKS may not have good advisors to deal with the situation. I suspect his days are really numbered.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 27 Mar 2012 16:42

Tape recording of bribe offer made to Army Chief General VK Singh exists: Ex-Army officer

A former Army officer claims that a tape recording of the bribe offer made to Army Chief General VK Singh exists. According to Colonel (Retired) RSN Singh the tape has recorded the voice of a man who says that Army chiefs before General VK Singh have accepted money.

The tape is in the custody of the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI), which began investigating the bribery allegation on Tuesday.

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 27 Mar 2012 16:44

General Singh is an honest honorable man. But I think he has a soldier's heart and unfortunately a soldier's head. He knows nothing but to charge. talk bout right guy at wrong place...

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 27 Mar 2012 17:11

Sri wrote:General Singh is an honest honorable man. But I think he has a soldier's heart and unfortunately a soldier's head. He knows nothing but to charge. talk bout right guy at wrong place...

He has a solider's head. A thinking solider's head.

Listen to the interview very carefully, look at his eyes, look at his diction. This man knowns "precisely" what he is doing and why he is doing that.

There is no shortage of excellent officers in IA who calmly, after consideration, charge machine gun nests --> The general is doing exactly the same, in a different set up.

vic · Post by **vic** » 27 Mar 2012 17:52

As per Indian Law (IPC/CRPC) Antony was bound to proceed to register the FIR even if VKS disagreed. All criminal offences have to prosecuted, there is no concept of victim (dis-interest) in Indian law

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 27 Mar 2012 17:57

Dilbu wrote:Tape recording of bribe offer made to Army Chief General VK Singh exists: Ex-Army officer

It would be better if there is a Tape recording of conversation between AKA and VKS when the latter reported the bribe offer made to him. No

vic · Post by **vic** » 27 Mar 2012 18:04

TATRA is screwed for all times to come from Indian defence market. Anyway can anybody explain the meaning of 8x8 or 6x6 what does it denote? 8 tyres with independant 8 drives??

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 27 Mar 2012 18:11

@^^

#wheels x #powered wheels

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 27 Mar 2012 19:13

vic wrote:As per Indian Law (IPC/CRPC) Antony was bound to proceed to register the FIR even if VKS disagreed. All criminal offences have to prosecuted, there is no concept of victim (dis-interest) in Indian law

If Antony asked him for an FIR and VKS didn't do it, then its disobeying the order. Why all the onus on AK? In this case, there is no victimisation of VKS.

AK has explained why he did not pursue, VKS has to explain why he did not pursue.

As per AK, VKS said that he did not want to pursue. CBI wants an FIR.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 27 Mar 2012 19:19

chackojoseph wrote:
vic wrote:As per Indian Law (IPC/CRPC) Antony was bound to proceed to register the FIR even if VKS disagreed. All criminal offences have to prosecuted, there is no concept of victim (dis-interest) in Indian law
If Antony asked him for an FIR and VKS didn't do it, then its disobeying the order. Why all the onus on AK? In this case, there is no victimisation of VKS.

AK has explained why he did not pursue, VKS has to explain why he did not pursue.

As per AK, VKS said that he did not want to pursue. CBI wants an FIR.

You don't have to be so biased - this is about the country

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 27 Mar 2012 19:43

Jarita wrote:You don't have to be so biased - this is about the country

Why am I biased?

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 27 Mar 2012 19:48

chackojoseph wrote: AK has explained why he did not pursue, VKS has to explain why he did not pursue.

As per AK, VKS said that he did not want to pursue. CBI wants an FIR.

No, AK has not given any proper explanation. Is he saying that if VKS did not want to pursue, then he (Antony) is justified in sitting on his ass and doing nothing. Then why is he asking for a CBI inquiry now? He should continue sitting on his ass.

In any case I seriously doubt that any specific instruction was given to VKS, which was disobeyed by VKS. Most likely Antony is trying is weasel out.

Antony's renowned honesty seems to mean that 100% of the loot is scrupulously given to High Command. He himself does not need anything. What was he doing when a 40 lakh truck was being sold to Army for 110 lakh, for so many years, without any maintenance facilities? Manmohan is another Chhapraasi who loves to call himself honest. Frankly I have more respect for somebody like YSR who at least had the self-respect to demand a cut for himself.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 27 Mar 2012 19:52

I am saying onus lies on both of them. Both are equally guilty. Why is VKS a hero and AK a villain?

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 27 Mar 2012 19:55

chackojoseph wrote:I am saying onus lies on both of them. Both are equally guilty. Why is VKS a hero and AK a villain?

Without VKS, the story of the loot would have remained buried. So we should be grateful to him for speaking up.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 27 Mar 2012 20:01

Pranav wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:I am saying onus lies on both of them. Both are equally guilty. Why is VKS a hero and AK a villain?
Without VKS, the story of the loot would have remained buried. So we should be grateful to him for speaking up.

VKS helped loot for two years as he did not complain. Whats the point after complaining after two years when the deed is done?

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 27 Mar 2012 20:03

chackojoseph wrote:
Pranav wrote: Without VKS, the story of the loot would have remained buried. So we should be grateful to him for speaking up.
VKS helped loot for two years as he did not complain. Whats the point after complaining after two years when the deed is done?

No he did not. Soon after he became chief, he refused to clear the Tatra file, which is what lead to this whole incident. Other Chiefs were spinelessly signing on the dotted line each year.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 27 Mar 2012 20:05

oh comeon

lets wait for Unnithans exclusive on it - i am sure Austin will get the call to post it here

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 27 Mar 2012 20:06

Pranav wrote:No he did not. Soon after he became chief, he refused to clear the Tatra file, which is what lead to this whole incident. Other Chiefs were spinelessly signing on the dotted line each year.

The issue here is that "not clearing" a file does not amount to anything. If he doesn't someone else will. Why didn't he fill the FIR and take action against the corrupt?

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 27 Mar 2012 20:10

chackojoseph wrote:
Pranav wrote:No he did not. Soon after he became chief, he refused to clear the Tatra file, which is what lead to this whole incident. Other Chiefs were spinelessly signing on the dotted line each year.
The issue here is that "not clearing" a file does not amount to anything. If he doesn't someone else will. Why didn't he fill the FIR and take action against the corrupt?

Not clearing a file amounts to stopping the loot at least for his tenure. Exposing the whole thing in the media means that this particular scam is shut down for good. Can't we be grateful for that.

As per service rules, his responsibility is to tell his boss, not directly approach police. He has fulfilled that responsibility.

Now Antony seems to be alleging that he had given order to VKS to file FIR which was disobeyed by VKS. If Antony is telling the truth then there will certainly be a paper trail. Let's see if Antony can prove it.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 27 Mar 2012 20:13

nelson wrote:
Dilbu wrote:Tape recording of bribe offer made to Army Chief General VK Singh exists: Ex-Army officer
It would be better if there is a Tape recording of conversation between AKA and VKS when the latter reported the bribe offer made to him. No

OK, I am all for the general but you want an army officer to tape his defense minister? I dread to even think what that means.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 27 Mar 2012 20:16

Pranav wrote:As per service rules, his responsibility is to tell his boss, not directly approach police. He has fulfilled that responsibility.

Now Antony seems to be alleging that he had given order to VKS to file FIR which was disobeyed by VKS. If Antony is telling the truth then there will certainly be a paper trail. Let's see if Antony can prove it.

So whats the procedure VKS should have followed? Just tell his boss and go away? He did tell his boss and his boss told him a remedy. VKS said he did not want to pursue. He sits on the file without taking action. Why it took 2 years for him to disclose this to media? Why is he doing it now?

Both are at fault.

What about an internal probe like Sukna case?

harish_ch · Post by **harish_ch** » 27 Mar 2012 20:17

http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-new ... 31639.aspx

Just wondering...Is every conversation made in army chief's office recorded?

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 27 Mar 2012 20:18

ShauryaT wrote:OK, I am all for the general but you want an army officer to tape his defense minister? I dread to even think what that means.

Well Antony seems to be making a specific allegation that an order to file an FIR was disobeyed by VKS. So we definitely need recordings, paper trails etc.

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 27 Mar 2012 20:20

Army Chief V.K.Singh Exclusive Interview with Chauthiduniya

This video was divided into "Gen ka court martial - I" and "Gen ka court martial - II", so most of it is similar to them.

Though, there are some parts that were not included in those 25 min clips.

At 39:30 he makes a point that the Bofors artillery being made by OFB is for our panda friends up north and the artillery we are going to buy too would be deployed in the mountains.

At 47 he explains why he made the ration for both officers and jawans the same. Brilliant!

At 56, he debunks the narrative created by media that he has given most time of his tenure to concentrate on his age controversy.

At 59, he talks about the Supreme Courts order regarding the age controversy. He seems a little disappointed with SC just cancelling government's order on his statutory complaint and not pursuing this matter till the end.

At 1:08, he is asked to compare IA with TSPA.

He lists three important differences.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 27 Mar 2012 20:21

chackojoseph wrote: So whats the procedure VKS should have followed? Just tell his boss and go away?

As per service rules that is exactly what he is supposed to do.

He did tell his boss and his boss told him a remedy. VKS said he did not want to pursue. He sits on the file without taking action. Why it took 2 years for him to disclose this to media? Why is he doing it now?

Both are at fault.

What about an internal probe like Sukna case?

Those is what Antony's accusation against VKS seems to be - that VKS disobeyed a specific order to file an FIR. Now Antony is on the hook to prove his accusations.

Jaybhatt · Post by **Jaybhatt** » 27 Mar 2012 20:21

Chackojoseph, as is his wont from time to time, has gone off the deep end and is foofling without a paddle.

Futile to discuss with a person like him when all his rationality has been suspended. His defence of Anthony ******* is illogical and unethical. Goes against all accepted legal principles.

When a complainant has brought an offence to the attention of the competent authority (as the COAS Gen. V K Singh did with the Raksha Mantri), the primary onus is on the competent authority to act. The complainant has fully discharged his legal obligation.

Why is Chackojoseph finding this so difficult to understand and accept ? The stand that he is taking is amazingly obtuse.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 27 Mar 2012 20:26

I find it difficult to accept because I don't see the anti-lungi logic. A personal attack on me won't change the debate equation. There is no history of such a thing happening before. How can you be so sure that AK is wrong and he did not follow the rules too?

VKS followed rule by telling his senior. His senior gave him a remedy, which he did not follow. He did not take an alternative route too.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 27 Mar 2012 20:27

Pranav wrote: As per service rules that is exactly what he is supposed to do.

.......

Those is what Antony's accusation against VKS seems to be - that VKS disobeyed a specific order to file an FIR. Now Antony is on the hook to prove his accusations.

can you list out the entire service rules on corruption? also, the rules for DM to follow?

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 27 Mar 2012 20:29

chackojoseph wrote:His senior gave him a remedy, which he did not follow.

If Antony is being honest, then it amounts to insubordination by VKS, which is a very serious charge. More likely Antony is just looking for an escape route.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 27 Mar 2012 20:29

VKS brougt to book the sukhna culprits. if he would hv not ben an upright one, if he would have cared for chamchagiri and afraid of his career in the army he would have mollycoddled with the scamsters only.

He brougt to the notice of RM the adarsh scam.

Guys, the army rule 21(?) clearly suggests that it is duty of officer to bring to the notice of his imediate superior any misdeeds. he aptly informed his immediate superior. such rules are also followed in corporates. later the matter is taken up by legal department and not by the individual who brought misconduct to the notice of his superior.

Regarding AK saying that VKS did not want to pursue, he did not pursue... Then who is the boss? and why did he take action later?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Mar 2012 20:33

Jaybhatt,
Please dont refer to AK Anthony as lungiwallah. That is stereo-typing and will get you a warning next time.
CJ you know better than to refere to same ephithet.

Can some one put upt atimeline for this Tatragate?

When was the offer made?

Why?
When was it reported to AKA?

so on and so forth.
A crucial thing is when did the Tatra Vectra Spiox become an intermediary?

I know Tatra was bought by a US company after Czechslovakia split.