Indian Army : News and Discussion

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sum
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by sum »

The days of TATRA seem numbered. Hope we have enough in stores since most of our TELARs, missile units etc use them and am 400% sure that the new multi-vendor truck order( for the next batch) will not move a inch for next 2-3 years:

Bribe row puts spotlight on BEML's Tatra
The electrifying revelation by Chief of Army Staff General V K Singh that he was offered a bribe of Rs 14 crore — apparently to sanction the purchase of 600 Kolos Tatra high-mobility vehicles — has highlighted a crucial question: How has the defence public sector undertaking, Bharat Earth Movers Limited (BEML), been supplying the army with what it considers a largely imported vehicle at an exorbitant price for a quarter of a century?

Since 1987, when BEML supplied the army with the first Tatra high-mobility vehicles that had been procured from Czechoslovakia, today 7,000 Tatra vehicles feature on the army’s inventory. Successive army chiefs cleared the purchase of repeated tranches of Tatra vehicles. But, in 2010, General V K Singh turned down a fresh procurement request, ordering instead a multi-vendor procurement of a suitable Indian vehicle.

Singh’s objections to the Tatra were threefold, explains a top-ranking army officer who plays a key role in equipment procurement. First, BEML had not indigenised production adequately. Almost 70 per cent of the Tatra was sourced from abroad. Second, despite BEML’s so-called ‘manufacture’ of the Tatra for decades, it remained a left-hand-drive vehicle that was unsuitable for Indian conditions. Third, Gen Singh believed BEML was making windfall profits on the Tatra, selling it to the army for about a crore rupees a vehicle, when it could be bought in Eastern Europe for half that cost.

“The Tatra was horrendously expensive. BEML was focused on maximising profits without even substantial indigenisation,” says a top procurement official of that time.

BEML chairman V R S Natarajan rejects charges of insufficient indigenisation and points out the purchase contract with the Tatra did not include transfer of technology (ToT). “We didn’t buy the technology for the Tatra. They are helping us indigenise without India paying for it… Despite that, the Tatra today is 60 per cent indigenous,” says Natarajan.{Riiihgt} :eek:

But top army officials, who are seeking a replacement for the Tatra, call that laughable. “In 25 years, BEML has not even bothered to modify it into a right-hand-drive vehicle; what indigenisation have they done?” asks a senior serving general.

Natarajan has an answer. “If the army wants to make it right-handed, we can do it. But they are not asking for that… The army is used to (the Tatra); they are driving it; and we are supplying it,” says the BEML chief.

Asked to confirm how much of the Tatra is built in India, the MoD’s joint secretary (land systems), Rashmi Verma, puts the figure at 45 per cent. But Natarajan dismissed her assessment. “If you ask her a specific question, she will ask information from me and then tell you. On her own, she might not know. But I know 100 per cent.”
:lol:

With General Singh exasperated at BEML, he pushed for an alternative. Army records show the MoD cleared the procurement in mid-2010; by end-2010, a tender was floated for an Indian replacement for the Tatra. Four companies — Tata Motors; Ashok Leyland; Ural (India) Ltd; and BEML — fielded their high-mobility vehicles in trials, conducted through 2011. A winner is likely to be declared this year, say army sources.
IIRC ,the real reason for the TATRA remaining left hand drive was given in the Hindu article given below:
“It's easy,” said a military engineer linked with BEML, disagreeing, “to point fingers, but these are complex financial questions. BEML, for example, imports left-hand drive axles, because setting up new ones for right-hand drive would cost hundreds of crores. There's no guarantee the Army will order enough trucks for that to make sense.”
Shocking that the IA never asked for this and happily kept lapping up the Left hand drives all these years.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by Nikhil T »

PC, AKA and Pranab meeting the PM right now (CCS meeting ?), taking stock of the Army Chief's revelations.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by sum »

97 per cent of India's air defence is OBSOLETE: Gen Singh
In a letter dated March 12, Army Chief General V K Singh has warned Prime Minister Manmohan Singh that the country's security is at risk.

The letter states that Indian army tanks have run out of ammunition, and emphasises on overcoming the shortcomings, and bring the army to fighting level.

Singh also calls almost 97 per cent of the air defence as obsolete, and the elite special forces are short of weapons.
More skeletons tumbling out..
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by nelson »

Another day, few more adjournments in the Parliament and we can expect another CBI inquiry into how the letter from Army Chief addressed to PM was leaked to the media.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by nelson »

nelson wrote:Congress puts onus on Army Chief. Lt Gen retd Tejinder Singh also had done so. VKS will pass the onus on to AKA, who in all probability will raise his hands and say to VKS, 'man you are on your own'. If VKS can get the FIRs he pointed to in his interview, fine. Else, he is going to be sacked in quick time.

Part of it has played out quickly, the remaining shall take place in a week.

Will General V K Singh complete two years in office???
In the process.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by Roperia »

Listening to the live debate in the parliament on Chief's letter to PM where Chief says that he is running critically low on supplies. People are asking Antony to roll some heads to give a tough message. I hope they don't fire VKS.
Last edited by Roperia on 28 Mar 2012 12:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by Pranav »

Uproar in Parliament, demanding sacking of Army Chief for "gross indiscipline" - http://news24online.com/PrintReport.aspx?NewsID=41811

PM holds meet; will govt sack Army Chief? - http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation/pm ... 66606.html
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by Virupaksha »

Dhritarashtra was personally a very decent person. However Dhritarashtra was blinded by his putra moh & so did not see, covered up Duryodhana's acts & tried to protect him from repurcussions. As long as Dhritarashtr directly sheilds Duryodhana, should he be spared just because he is personally decent?
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by chackojoseph »

peter wrote: You keep saying you have addressed it. How?

VKS did not NEED to file an FIR before Anthony could order an enquiry. Furthermore if Anthony had ordered a CBI probe back then, than it would not have fizzled out.

You have made up your mind that Anthony did no wrong and anything to the contrary is opaque to you.

Try answering this: Why an inquiry now without a formal written complaint from General VKS? What changed? Is the complaint to a newspaper Hindu more important then a personal complaint to Anthony?

You are just running away from answering uncomfortable questions.
Peter mate,

Please read the replies. Don't go in circles.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by Roperia »

Highly placed sources close to the army chief say - Army chief is all set to challenge the claims made by RM in the parliament (about the bribe case). The sources say that army chief will soon come out with proof to challenge what AKA said in parliament.

Another two more points made by sources close to the COAS-

1. Gen VKS refused to sign contract with BEML.

2. Gen VKS vetoed the appointment the of Lt. Gen Tejender Singh as the head of NTRO after his retirement from Army.

-Just head B Dutt reporting this to NDTV over phone
Last edited by Roperia on 28 Mar 2012 12:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by Roperia »

AKA says I'll speed up the process of modernization to secure our mother land. He adds publishing the content of secret communication in public can't be tolerated.

AKA says after consulting with the PM we'll take appropriate action.

Jaitley says -

1. Too many pieces of information regarding the malpractices in procurement of equipment are coming in the media. I urge you to please give utmost priority that no such thing is happening.

2. Why are secret contents regarding defense preparedness (some were there in today's letter) coming in the open? This is alarming and should not happen.

3. Opposition does not want this matter to be made a public acrimonious debate.
Last edited by Roperia on 28 Mar 2012 13:08, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by nelson »

As it unfolds, the Cabinet meeting scheduled tomorrow is expected to approve the relieving of VKS from his duties. Is tomorrow the day of climax?
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by peter »

chackojoseph wrote:
peter wrote: You keep saying you have addressed it. How?

VKS did not NEED to file an FIR before Anthony could order an enquiry. Furthermore if Anthony had ordered a CBI probe back then, than it would not have fizzled out.

You have made up your mind that Anthony did no wrong and anything to the contrary is opaque to you.

Try answering this: Why an inquiry now without a formal written complaint from General VKS? What changed? Is the complaint to a newspaper Hindu more important then a personal complaint to Anthony?

You are just running away from answering uncomfortable questions.
Peter mate,

Please read the replies. Don't go in circles.
Chacko buddy,
Indulge your friend! Please do answer these questions in response to this message.
Try answering this: Why an inquiry now without a formal written complaint from General VKS? What changed? Is the complaint to a newspaper Hindu more important then a personal complaint to Anthony?
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by Kapil »

I suppose the Govt,MPs etc will finish this matter in the next 2 days as IPL starts next week and all of them have to go and attend the functions.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by Roperia »

NDTV Sanjeev Phukan says that some people are privately asking to take action against the Chief.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by Sriman »

Kapil wrote:I suppose the Govt,MPs etc will finish this matter in the next 2 days as IPL starts next week and all of them have to go and attend the functions.
I think that sums up the tragedy of it all :(
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by chackojoseph »

peter wrote: Chacko buddy,
Indulge your friend! Please do answer these questions in response to this message.
Try answering this: Why an inquiry now without a formal written complaint from General VKS? What changed? Is the complaint to a newspaper Hindu more important then a personal complaint to Anthony?
Let me quote my posts since you have decided to keep replying without considering my request to read whats already written.

LInk
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by peter »

nelson wrote:As it unfolds, the Cabinet meeting scheduled tomorrow is expected to approve the relieving of VKS from his duties. Is tomorrow the day of climax?
Could happen but would be stupid as he is about to retire. Though if it does happen Chidambram Junior, Hooda, Lt Gen Tejinder and Deepak Kapoor nexus alluded to here would be in the eye of the needle.
http://www.sunday-guardian.com/investig ... nder-singh
One source said that Tejinder Singh "operates in tandem with a Major Hooda (retd) and his son, both of whom are well known to Karthik Chidambaram,the influential son of Home Minister P Chidambaram".
Congress has been trying to protect chiddu for a long time and they dodged the bullet on 2G. See for example this : http://www.sunday-guardian.com/news/pho ... t-of-money where it says:
Former Telecom Minister A. Raja told corporate lobbyist Niira Radia in a telephone conversation which was intercepted by the government that Home Minister P. Chidambaram had "taken a lot of money and further expressed his annoyance on the functioning of Chidambaram on minerals and gas matters". The conversation took place in May 2009, after the UPA returned to power in the Lok Sabha elections.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by nelson »

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... epage=true

I do not understand who or what we elect to represent us in the Parliament. They can not understand the functioning of the govt. They want VKS to go because of a letter he sent 15 days back, a letter which has been copied to MoD also. A letter that contains issues that have been raised with MoD before without any positive response. Seeing the polity, I believe Gen Thimmaya was better placed than VKS. But still couldn't prevent a 1962. VKS - only god knows.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by Roperia »

The parliamentarians and median analysts calling it insubordination should for once ask - why would Gen VKS leak this letter? What purpose does it serve?

Nitin Gokhale reports that the letter was sent by COAS to PM through DM.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by Lalmohan »

the oppostion will keep quiet, since their fingers will also have been in the pie...
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by Kapil »

I think we are making a mistake when we say that our politicians differ from our soldiers.
They don't.
Army officers have their loyalty to their Regiment, their Arm (INF,CAV,EME etc).They compete on these right from academy days to various promotions.But they are all united and fight together for their country when conflict breaks out.

Politicians are from different ideologies,creeds,regions,political parties and they are forever at each others throats.But when a crisis threatens to engulf one member of their tribe,they too stand united together.

Quite similar,no.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by nelson »

^^^Unless the aim of VKS was to commit suicide, he wouldn't have done anything to the contrary.

Probably, VKS chose to write the letter to PM fearing that at a later date the PM and the Defence Minister would tell "I asked him to give a written complaint, he did not".
Last edited by nelson on 28 Mar 2012 13:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by peter »

peter wrote: Chacko buddy,
Indulge your friend! Please do answer these questions in response to this message.
Try answering this: Why an inquiry now without a formal written complaint from General VKS? What changed? Is the complaint to a newspaper Hindu more important then a personal complaint to Anthony?
chackojoseph wrote: Let me quote my posts since you have decided to keep replying without considering my request to read whats already written.
I quote your reply from your link.
chackojoseph wrote:Last I read yesterday night was that CBI is asking is for a FIR from VKS. That's what AKA asked VKS to do.
No. Anthony *did* not ask VKS for an FIR. He asked VKS to take "action". See Anthony's sound bytes quoted above from TOI. If the "action" is written complaint (can't be an FIR) then are you saying that Anthony does not trust the General? Do remember Anthony has opined that he acted even on anoymous complaints earlier!
chackojoseph wrote: Now what difference it has made from if he had started before or now. CBI still needs FIR.
Come on buddy. Don't you realise Anthony still does not have an FIR or anything in writing from VKS. So why did Anthony order the CBI inquiry now? Is'nt this duplicity in behavior?
chackojoseph wrote: AKA is not denying the incident. He could have said many other reasons. he did not.
No. He could not have denied the incident. Have we forgotten Anthony is an honest man?
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by peter »

Lalmohan wrote:the oppostion will keep quiet, since their fingers will also have been in the pie...
No politician likes honest people.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by Roperia »

Kapil ji,

I understand your logic. My only contention is that are these parliamentarians even trying to verify the facts before jumping the gun and accusing the chief of insubordination.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by Manish_Sharma »

chackojoseph wrote: If Antony asked him for an FIR and VKS didn't do it, then its disobeying the order. Why all the onus on AK? In this case, there is no victimisation of VKS.

AK has explained why he did not pursue, VKS has to explain why he did not pursue.

As per AK, VKS said that he did not want to pursue. CBI wants an FIR.
Antony has been saying and is still saying that he told Chiefs "In case I find anything wrong I'll cancel that deal".

Antony has been projecting himself as a very proactive "anti-corruption" minister, who will take action at the very hint of any wrongdoings.

Well this very incident has proved that he is not mister-clean as he projects himself to be. Army chief reports to him an incident and all he does is tells the Army Chief to "report it", then forgets about it until Shri VK Singh brings it out in the public.

At least in public's eye its clear what a hypocrite Antony has been.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by Roperia »

I predict Congress using lahori logic and shooting the messenger (what's the need to find out who leaked the document?) This helps them get rid of a COAS who is blocking "certain" deals and vetoing "certain" people from getting top posts in sensitive organizations. The COAS also seems to be fighting corruption. How could this be since this is contradictory to what our 'honest' PM reiterated on Aug 15th last year that there is zero tolerance to corruption.
Last edited by Roperia on 28 Mar 2012 13:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by Virupaksha »

Arun Roperia wrote:I predict Congress using lahori logic and shooting the messenger and not even trying to find out who leaked the document.
I wouldnt be surprised if AKA/MMS themselves "leaked" the letters and then turn on VKS for leaking it.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by chetak »

suryag wrote:better leak the audio tape

Wait for it, it's surely on the cards. :)
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by chackojoseph »

peter wrote:a) No. Anthony *did* not ask VKS for an FIR. He asked VKS to take "action". See Anthony's sound bytes quoted above from TOI. If the "action" is written complaint (can't be an FIR) then are you saying that Anthony does not trust the General? Do remember Anthony has opined that he acted even on anoymous complaints earlier!

b) Come on buddy. Don't you realise Anthony still does not have an FIR or anything in writing from VKS. So why did Anthony order the CBI inquiry now? Is'nt this duplicity in behavior?

c) No. He could not have denied the incident. Have we forgotten Anthony is an honest man?
This is a repeat and I am replying to you because I don't want you to feel bad me telling you to read everything again.

Here is Antony's statement:
With regard to questions on his own inaction in the sensational matter, Mr Antony said: “I acted on my judgment. If I am wrong, you may punish me. I think I have done my best.” The minister said it has been his policy to take action even on anonymous complaints but in this case there was nothing in writing. He was responding to questions by Opposition members as to why he did not act despite the matter being brought to his notice by none other than the Army chief.

The minister also said he cannot ignore even an anonymous complaint. “I am very clear. That is my approach...it is my priority. If a written complaint, even if anonymous, was received, I used to forward it for inquiry,” he said.

Leader of the Opposition Mr Arun Jaitley said Opposition did not question the minister's integrity but wondered why neither Mr Antony nor the Army chief took any action on the development that took place in September last.
Here is my statement:
My contentions are two, because of which I hold them both guilty.

a) written or not, AKA should have made a case and asked his junior to comply.
b) Post of Army Chief was attempted to be bribed and VKS left the alleged accused scot free, there by creating an atmosphere where in future anyone can drop in and offer a bribe to the Army chief. he refused the orders of his senior and there by refusing to bring in the material witness to the case.

While these are my observations, I still stand by the two honest people for the omission, as they have done a larger good for the nation.
First of all, when both Def Min and humble me have said that he is at fault, why are you arguing that
You have made up your mind that Anthony did no wrong and anything to the contrary is opaque to you.
I want to understand your motive on why you are accusing me for this aspect? And it is not that I had said that 100 posts back. Its very in the debate.

Coming to your points, which again are a repeat.

a) Antony asked Army chief to take action is not equal to ordering a probe by Army? Army chief did not pursue. You may give an excuse that Army chief cannot probe etc. However, since his superior had asked him to, he should have created necessary conditions to enable a probe via procedural advice or something else. Instead he said no. It is clear insubordination.

b) The CBI has been asked to inquire after it blew up on face. This is admitted by the defence minister too. its in paras above: Mr Antony said: “I acted on my judgment. If I am wrong, you may punish me. I think I have done my best.” He is saying that.

c) Is your opinion. I don't know what you are saying. If you are implying that he is corrupt, i beg to defer. Even BJP leader jaitley says "Opposition did not question the minister's integrity."

As I said before, you are selectively reading or not reading. This is unfortunate.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by Roperia »

Chacko ji,

I agree with most of what you said but I think we are going a step ahead of your argument - if RM wanted to pursue the matter ( as he claimed in the parliament that he did by instructing the COAS), why didn't RM punish COAS for insubordination. I'm reluctant to admit your argument that AKS can steer clear of the controversy by just saying that I acted on my judgment. What judgement? Either it is your indecisiveness to not pursue the matter or it is your administrative incompetence to not being able to follow through.

You've to take one of the blames atleast.
Last edited by Roperia on 28 Mar 2012 14:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by nelson »

@chackojoseph

you avoided answering my post and again saying the same things.
a) Antony asked Army chief to take action is not equal to ordering a probe by Army? Army chief did not pursue. You may give an excuse that Army chief cannot probe etc. However, since his superior had asked him to, he should have created necessary conditions to enable a probe via procedural advice or something else. Instead he said no. It is clear insubordination.
Please go back and read what i said. If VKS said no and AKA accepted it, the final decision to not pursue the case, is of the superior.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by chackojoseph »

Arun Roperia and nelson,
Mr Antony said: “I acted on my judgment. If I am wrong, you may punish me. I think I have done my best.”
Why is that so difficult to understand?

Right from the beginning I have blamed both AKA and VKS for omission.

I also said
I still stand by the two honest people for the omission, as they have done a larger good for the nation.
The VKS insubordination replies are only for the 'extreme' counter debaters. I have used that repeatedly to point out that there is mistake from both sides. They just let off VKS for free and assign blame to AKA. I am of the view that both are guilty of omission, so the question of me taking side of AKA or VKs does not arise.

let us see if VKS has a counter to AKA, as claimed by some folks. Only then we can decide.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by nelson »

I hope we can have more of persons like the present RRM Mr Pallam Raju, in positions that matter. Persons who can take a balanced view of situation and take action after an appraisal.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 253952.ece
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by Kapil »

The RRM has been a NCC Cadet and it shows in his interactions with military personnel.Nice guy.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by chackojoseph »

nelson wrote:The above would be fine and complete in all respects, if the talk transpired between two equals in power and responsibility. then yo...liament and from what we can make out from VKS's interview to the News channel and the daily, it is most certain that what happened was that listed at (a) above. So, AKA takes the cake and gets to eat it too.
nelson, I did not read this before. Just looked back after you said.
nelson wrote:I hope we can have more of persons like the present RRM Mr Pallam Raju, in positions that matter. Persons who can take a balanced view of situation and take action after an appraisal.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 253952.ece
AKA, PR are a team, which I like. There was one more folk, he retired.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by nelson »

Sorry for posting this again, thinking that it must have been lost in all the noise yesterday. A poignant true life story by Wg Cdr retd Unni Kartha of his buddy of NDA time, Col AGJ Swittens (Late), POW after the 1971 war. Shows how an ungrateful country we are.

http://cyclicstories.blogspot.in/2012/0 ... l-pow.html
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by nelson »

In all probability, the govt is going to institute an inquiry based on an anonymous complaint received by MoD, and thereby ask VKS to proceed on leave pending the inquiry against him. - Trusted sources of paanwallah who sits near Kashmir House at a stone's throw away from South Block.

This way they can sack him and prevent him from becoming a 'martyr'.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by Kanson »

Kapil wrote:I think we are making a mistake when we say that our politicians differ from our soldiers.
They don't.
Army officers have their loyalty to their Regiment, their Arm (INF,CAV,EME etc).They compete on these right from academy days to various promotions.But they are all united and fight together for their country when conflict breaks out.

Politicians are from different ideologies,creeds,regions,political parties and they are forever at each others throats.But when a crisis threatens to engulf one member of their tribe,they too stand united together.

Quite similar,no.
hmm...you implication is that like Pakis we need external enemy to be united. :(

In your categorization of Politicians, I guess you have not included left parties like CPI(M) etc who openly supported and probably will support in future conflicts with China and same for Pak, who gets united under external threats. :( :(
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