Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Mar 2012 12:07

T-90MS to be displayed at Defexpo 2012

Russia to Showcase New Tank Modification

Russia will roll out a modernized version of its T-90 tank at the Defexpo India 2012 show that will open later this month, an informed source close to the Russian defense sector said on Tuesday.

The tank features a new fire control and protection system, an improved suspension and drive train and advanced combat capabilities.

India already has several hundred T-90s in its army and builds the tank under license.

The international Defexpo India 2012 exhibition will take place from March 29 through April 1 in New Delhi.

Arms manufacturers from 17 countries are expected to present their goods.

T-90MS Spec Sheet

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 20 Mar 2012 12:34

Was just reading up about German Tank designs during WWII when I came across this. Can't believe I didn't know about this before. Apparently Krupp, the German tank and ship manufacturer went bat$hit crazy in 1942 and designed this 1000 tonne monstrosity which they called a tank. The Landkreuzer P.1000 Ratte.

Size Comparison:

Alongside a Panther (design with a rear mounted secondary turret):

And since this thing is obviously too small, Krupp then designed the 1500 tonne Landkreuzer P. 1500 Monster (yeah that was it's real name).

Few details about the smaller sibling

The Ratte was to be propelled by two MAN V12Z32/44 24 cylinder marine diesel engines of 8,500 hp (6.2 MW) each (as used in U-boats) or eight Daimler-Benz MB 501 20 cylinder marine diesel engines of 2,000 hp (1.5 MW) each (as used in E-boats) to achieve the 16,000 hp (11.8 MW) needed to move this tank.

Armament

The Ratte's primary weapon would have been a dual 280 mm SK C/28 gun turret. The turret was to have been a modified Kriegsmarine triple gun turret, removing one of the guns and loading mechanism.

Alas, two 280mm guns aren't nearly enough. So...

Further armament was to consist of a 128 mm anti-tank gun of the type used in the Jagdtiger or Maus, two 15 mm Mauser MG 151/15 autocannons, and eight 20 mm Flak 38 anti-aircraft guns, probably with at least four of them as a quad mount

I am aghast. Too scared to even look at the specs of the 1500 tonne big brother.

All this no doubt came from the demented mind of herr führer.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Mar 2012 13:06

and I thought the Maus was enormous. this thing is truly a naval gun turret transplanted to land. if it stalled, would need a ARV of similar size to drag it back. good material for a dark graphic novel though...as in a band of neo-nazis spawned from the frozen semen of nazi elders build a fleet of these things in secret and one fine day teleport themselves to the outskirts of washington DC to launch their attack.

but interesting data point is they were comfortably making such a wide range of high HP engines even then 70 years ago, a feat we would be hard pressed today to accomplish (nobody is even trying here).

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Mar 2012 21:08

I moved these from nukkad.

aniket · Post by **aniket** » 20 Mar 2012 21:33

The idea is good in theory,but in today's scenario wouldn't it be like the easiest target for anti-tank missiles ?i mean one of those would immobilise it.It would have really made the allies pee their pants if such a monster could have ever been deployed.You have to give credit to Hitler for having such weird ideas.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Mar 2012 21:36

the allies would have been glad if hitler had wasted the resources for 100 tanks making 1 of these sitting ducks. a couple of air delivered bombs would have stopped it in its tracks.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 20 Mar 2012 22:00

Singha wrote:the allies would have been glad if hitler had wasted the resources for 100 tanks making 1 of these sitting ducks. a couple of air delivered bombs would have stopped it in its tracks.

Thats exactly what happened to tigers too to a great degree didnt it.

Ironic.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Mar 2012 12:15

Russian armoured vehicles to roll on single platform

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Mar 2012 10:35

Israeli Multi-Purpose Tank Ammo Redesigned to Fit the 125mm Gun of the T-90S

IMI is unveiling two new 125mm tank rounds at the Defexpo 2012 this week. The new types of ammunition can enhance the combat capabilities and survivability of the Indian T-90S and T-72M Main Battle Tanks, improving their armor penetration capability as well as efficiency against anti-tank teams and fortified targets. The new multi-purpose tank round is based on IMI’s Multi-Purpose round technology that has won the 2011 Israel Defense Award. This technology has now been ported to the 125mm caliber, to make it available for the Indian Army.

IMI is introducing a multi-purpose 125mm tank round designed for the T-90, T-80 and T-72 class of Main Battle Tanks (MBT). The High-Explosive Multi-Purpose Tracered (HE-MP-T) tank round designated M710 is the latest of IMI’s family of Multi-Purpose (MP) tank ammunition.

The M710 is optimized to defeat targets typically encountered in asymmetric and urban scenarios, including buildings and bunkers, light armored vehicles and fortifications. This round is also effective against Anti-Tank (AT) squads and infantry in the open, in a foxhole or behind a corner.

M710 uses an electronic fuzing system that has three different modes of operation: PDD (Point Detonation Delayed), PD (Point Detonation/ Super Quick) and Air Burst. The tank’s Fire Control System (FCS) feeds the target information and the programmable electronic fuze is set by wireless data link while the round is in the chamber.

In PDD mode, the M710 is designed to penetrate and explode inside targets, such as double reinforced concrete walls; bunkers field fortifications or Light Armored Vehicles (LAVs). In PD (Super Quick) mode the round breaches a hole in double reinforced concrete walls, creating a passageway for infantry soldiers. The Air Burst mode is used for effectively engaging AT or infantry squads, operating in the open or hiding behind defilade and walls.

Another newly developed tank round is the 125mm MK-2 Armor Piercing, fin Stabilized, Discarding Sabot-Tracer (APFSDS-T) – a second-generation, high-velocity, Kinetic Energy (KE) armor defeating round. The MK-2 improves the accuracy of the penetrator at all combat ranges, lowers barrel wear and enhances armor penetration capability when fired with existing 125 barrels. The round contains a tungsten-based alloy penetrator and is also type classified for the 125mm smoothbore tank guns.

IMI’s MP rounds family also includes the M117/1, designed for the 105mm rifled guns of the M-60 and Merkava Mk 1 & 2 tanks. The combat proven M329 was later developed for the modern 120mm smoothbore gun used with current Merkava Mk 3 & Mk 4. M329 is also compatible with NATO 120mm smoothbore tank guns. An additional MP round, the M339, has been developed primarily for western tanks using NATO 120mm smoothbore guns, such as the M1A1, Ariete, Leopard 2 or Arjun. IMI’s MP capabilities have been awarded recognition as its M329 tank round has recently received the 2011 ISRAEL DEFENSE AWARD for its distinctive contribution to the defense of Israel.

IMI is participating at the defense show despite its recent inclusion among six companies blacklisted by the Ministry of Defense.

vina · Post by **vina** » 28 Mar 2012 13:01

In PDD mode, the M710 is designed to penetrate and explode inside targets, such as double reinforced concrete walls; bunkers field fortifications or Light Armored Vehicles (LAVs). In PD (Super Quick) mode the round breaches a hole in double reinforced concrete walls, creating a passageway for infantry soldiers. The Air Burst mode is used for effectively engaging AT or infantry squads, operating in the open or hiding behind defilade and walls.

In Plain Inglees, this is exactly what the High Explosive Squash head round that that Arjun tank has and the rifled gun is perfect for accomplishes , while also doing the tank busting thing quite well thank you. To do the same thing, you now need an expensive Isreali shell, with sooper-dooper electronics and fuzes set wirelessly on all the gee gaws and of course our resident tank Egg Spurt (aka Sanku Maharaj ji) will come out and say that the entire world needs to standardize on the 125mm smoothbore and buy the Isreali ammo for bunker and fortification busting.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 28 Mar 2012 13:43

vina wrote:Plain Inglees, this is exactly what the High Explosive Squash head round that that Arjun tank has and the rifled gun is perfect for accomplishes , while also doing the tank busting thing quite well thank you. To do the same thing, you now need an expensive Isreali shell, with sooper-dooper electronics and fuzes set wirelessly on all the gee gaws and of course our resident tank Egg Spurt (aka Sanku Maharaj ji) will come out and say that the entire world needs to standardize on the 125mm smoothbore and buy the Isreali ammo for bunker and fortification busting.

+1, right on man

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Mar 2012 14:15

Vina , from what i can make out the capability advertised for M710 round will only be possible if you have those electronic and smart fuses embedded in the rounds , something you can also have with 125 mm or 120 mm rounds , the capability of round is more a function of fuses and electronic then the actual round.

The HESH rounds of Arjun is a cost effective substitute to take out wide range of targets at longer ranges with high accuracy afforded by Rifled Gun.

Indrajit · Post by **Indrajit** » 28 Mar 2012 14:31

Have anyone seen this?quite scary news.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/gene ... 79692.html

vina · Post by **vina** » 28 Mar 2012 15:09

The HESH rounds of Arjun is a cost effective substitute to take out wide range of targets at longer ranges with high accuracy afforded by Rifled Gun.

The HESH round with a rifled barrel is dal roti for the Arjun. It is not a substitute. What is the substitute for this capability that the smooth bores lack and increasingly important in urban scenarios and asymmetrical warfare is exactly the Isreali "jugaad" with electronics and other stuff (still limited by the physics and dynamics of the smooth bore).

Lets face it. The smooth bores are optimized for tank vs tank shoot outs at less than 2 km range. For other missions they absolutely suck. The rifled design is a great "multi mission" weapon, can give longer stand off ranges against targets and are perfectly fine in tank vs tank.

Oh well, tell that to Sanku Maharaj Ji, who will insist that since the Isrealis, Americans, Russians and Germans have the smooth bore and now since they want this bunker and fortification busting capability, they either will buy the isreali shell or will develop similar, we too should give up the rifled gun on the Arjun and "standardize" on the 125 mm smooth bore just like the Russians (and Chinese and Pakis and a whole set of others with eastern block equipment).

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 28 Mar 2012 15:45

vina wrote:
The HESH round with a rifled barrel is dal roti for the Arjun. It is not a substitute.

HESH is a legacy system, hang over of 70s British tank. Now that India has expertise in guns, as expected, Indian designed tanks including Arjun will have smooth bores.

This would leave about a 1000 or so odd challys with rifled guns, but in any case the British Army is still trying to pretend that as British they know better than rest of the world combined.

That in nutshell is the set of facts.

--------------------------------------

Added later >> HESH is also not going to cut it in the evolving warfare world. It's bunker busting capacities are of much limited type and are restricted only to spalling

The new shell system has three features -- available is a single shell. Lets see how HESH stacks up.
Air burst --> Impossible and meaningless in HESH context.
Cracking a gap in the reinforced structure for infantry to use the gap --> HESH can not do it.
Piercing a concrete or light armor --> HESH does not pierce at all.

What HESH does is, stick to the surface of armor or concrete and explode, and the shock waves inside the structure kill.

This is a very limited type of application, for example useless against walls, bunds or ditches, it will work only for enclosed structures like Tank or Pill boxes.

I really dont get the love Vina has for HESH; it has practically been obsoleted for nearly 20 years, if not more.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 28 Mar 2012 18:15

^ Sure thats why we need to have a round that is electronically mimicking its capabilities being fired from smooth-bore tank guns. Since its not on the Ruuuuuski tin can, it must be obsolete.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 28 Mar 2012 18:17

Arun Menon wrote:^ Sure thats why we need to have a round that is electronically mimicking its capabilities being fired from smooth-bore tank guns. Since its not on the Ruuuuuski tin can, it must be obsolete.

No Ji, the HESH can not do any of the things this new round is doing.

It is only Vina's love affair with the dinasour round that makes him ascribe mythical capabilities to HESH.

vina · Post by **vina** » 28 Mar 2012 21:21

Sanku wrote:HESH is a legacy system, hang over of 70s British tank.

The tank itself is a British "legacy" system since 1915 or so!

That in nutshell is the set of facts.

--------------------------------------

Added later >> HESH is also not going to cut it in the evolving warfare world. It's bunker busting capacities are of much limited type and are restricted only to spalling

The new shell system has three features -- available is a single shell. Lets see how HESH stacks up.
Air burst --> Impossible and meaningless in HESH context.
Cracking a gap in the reinforced structure for infantry to use the gap --> HESH can not do it.
Piercing a concrete or light armor --> HESH does not pierce at all.

What HESH does is, stick to the surface of armor or concrete and explode, and the shock waves inside the structure kill.

This is a very limited type of application, for example useless against walls, bunds or ditches, it will work only for enclosed structures like Tank or Pill boxes.

Ah.. Sanku Maharaj Ji , has spoken facts NOT, but rather imagined make believe.

In fact, HESH was INVENTED specifically "originally as an anti-fortification "wallbuster" munition for use against concrete." .. In fact, specialized combat demolition vehicles like this M728 Combat Engineering Vehicle, use guess what .. a HESH round!

Oh well, ever since it was invented, it has been used for demolition,bunker busting and stuff against structures, specifically reinforced concrete, especially in specialized demolition roles, but Sanku Maharaj Ji in all his imagined wisdom dismisses that as "useless" against walls, bunds and ditches (it is perfect in busting such stuff, like the M728 was deployed in Iraq to do, to breach the Iraqi sand berms) and is of course highly effective against exposed infantry (HESH rounds contain a large amount of explosive)

I really dont get the love Vina has for HESH; it has practically been obsoleted for nearly 20 years, if not more.

. HESH round works only when it is fired from a rifled gun! It was never "obsolete", it is just that when the American and German and Russian tanks switched to smooth bore , the ability to fire this round was lost /given up, and those tanks became a primarily tank vs tank at 2km weapon !

Now with the Isreali's recent combat experience in Lebanon, when they faced asymmetrical warfare from Hizbollah and it's fortifications, and hand held anti armor weapons, the limitations of the smooth bore and it's optimization for anti tank becomes crystal clear to them and the need for a HESH like capability is felt by them and they develop a similar capability given the limitations they have via electronics and other gee whiz stuff!

The Arjun rifled cannon already is designed with that in mind and the Indian army's GSQR was prescient in noting that they might have to fight in urban /built up areas and we already have that capability!

Note, the tanks that DON'T have that capability are the smooth bore 125mm equipped Russian tanks in IA service! And so, pronto, run to the Isrealis and buy the round and the associated tank electronics if you want the capability!

It really is the capability of an all round flexible gun was one optimized for tank vs tank at 2 Km. Now that the tank vs tank has taken a firm back seat and you need more capabilities, the weakness of that smooth bore design choice becomes obvious. And oh, HEAT is a dead duck. No one will use that against armored vehicles and is useless in anything else. So out of the two weapons that a smooth bore has, one is totally useless (HEAT) against modern armor, the other (APFSDS) is useless against anything other than armor!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Mar 2012 21:39

in any case, we can ill afford smart rounds when we are struggling to put enough upgraded tanks in service.

srai · Post by **srai** » 28 Mar 2012 22:32

Austin wrote:Israeli Multi-Purpose Tank Ammo Redesigned to Fit the 125mm Gun of the T-90S

...

M710 uses an electronic fuzing system that has three different modes of operation: PDD (Point Detonation Delayed), PD (Point Detonation/ Super Quick) and Air Burst. The tank’s Fire Control System (FCS) feeds the target information and the programmable electronic fuze is set by wireless data link while the round is in the chamber.

In PDD mode, the M710 is designed to penetrate and explode inside targets, such as double reinforced concrete walls; bunkers field fortifications or Light Armored Vehicles (LAVs). In PD (Super Quick) mode the round breaches a hole in double reinforced concrete walls, creating a passageway for infantry soldiers. The Air Burst mode is used for effectively engaging AT or infantry squads, operating in the open or hiding behind defilade and walls.

...

vina wrote:...

In Plain Inglees, this is exactly what the High Explosive Squash head round that that Arjun tank has and the rifled gun is perfect for accomplishes , while also doing the tank busting thing quite well thank you. To do the same thing, you now need an expensive Isreali shell, with sooper-dooper electronics and fuzes set wirelessly on all the gee gaws and of course our resident tank Egg Spurt (aka Sanku Maharaj ji) will come out and say that the entire world needs to standardize on the 125mm smoothbore and buy the Isreali ammo for bunker and fortification busting.

It would seem HESH provides the effect of PDD mode and maybe some PD mode effects. However, it does not provide the Air Burst mode effects on troops in the open or in trenches. But if the AT team/troops are hiding behind walls, then a HESH round would take care of that. So all in all, a HESH round would accomplish 80% of the more expensive M710 round design.

Ashish J · Post by **Ashish J** » 28 Mar 2012 23:02

Any one seen this??? has this been posted before???
This is a major surprise for me....FICV contract with M&M,,(please pardon if this has been posted before)

Talk of $2-bn defence deal lifts M&M stock

"The market is abuzz with speculation that the defence ministry has shortlisted Mahindra & Mahindra (M&M) for the much-awaited contract for providing the futuristic infantry combat vehicle (FICV) to the Indian army.

Talk is that M&M may secure one-fifth of the total deal worth $10 billion. The company could not be reached for comment. M&M shares rose 1% to 686.85 on Tuesday."

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/mar ... 435745.cms

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 29 Mar 2012 00:06

vina wrote:
Sanku wrote:HESH is a legacy system, hang over of 70s British tank.
The tank itself is a British "legacy" system since 1915 or so!

Very funny. Does that mean we should still use the 1915 tank design.

Lets get over the love of British please.

In fact, HESH was INVENTED specifically "originally as an anti-fortification "wallbuster" munition for use against concrete." .. In fact, specialized combat demolition vehicles like this M728 Combat Engineering Vehicle, use guess what .. a HESH round!

As always partial knowledge is a dangerous thing.

A 165 mm HESH round is used by the United States Army for the main gun of the M728 Combat Engineer Vehicle, an M60 tank equipped with a bulldozer blade. Similarly the British Centurion AVRE (Armoured Vehicle Royal Engineers) was equipped with a short 165 mm gun solely for a 29 kg HESH shell.

We are talking about HESH shells that are fired from MBTs which are 120/125 mm and not 29 Kg but 18 kg or so. BTW just in case if you are not clear

MBT != combat engineering vehicle.
125 mm != 165 mm
29 Kg != 18 kg.

An MBT requires light weight shells which are effective in multiple roles, without compromising any of the features.

That is why HESH wont cut it. Since rifled guns which fire HESH are suboptimal for the main role of firing SABOTs, while smooth bores can easily fire shells which work more effectively than HESH of the same caliber.

I really dont get the love Vina has for HESH; it has practically been obsoleted for nearly 20 years, if not more.
. HESH round works only when it is fired from a rifled gun! It was never "obsolete", it is just that when the American and German and Russian tanks switched to smooth bore , the ability to fire this round was lost /given up, and those tanks became a primarily tank vs tank at 2km weapon !

We are discussing tanks right? It is obsolete on tanks. Period. You can make the claim that only you know the reality and rest of the entire tank design teams of the world are idiots who got carried away in a trend, but in the end you are one person against pretty much the entire tank designers of the world.

Hard luck.

the limitations of the smooth bore and it's optimization for anti tank becomes crystal clear to them and the need for a HESH like capability is felt by them and they develop a similar capability given the limitations they have via electronics and other gee whiz stuff!

Vina dont pass of your imagination as facts, there is nothing remotely in any open source discussion that remotely suggests what you are saying is true.

Stop making things up.

The Arjun rifled cannon already is designed with that in mind and the Indian army's GSQR was prescient in noting that they might have to fight in urban /built up areas and we already have that capability!

Vina news for you even Arjun will move to smooth bores.

So much so for your love.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 29 Mar 2012 00:15

srai wrote: It would seem HESH provides the effect of PDD mode and maybe some PD mode effects. However, it does not provide the Air Burst mode effects on troops in the open or in trenches. But if the AT team/troops are hiding behind walls, then a HESH round would take care of that. So all in all, a HESH round would accomplish 80% of the more expensive M710 round design.

srai-ji, I really doubt how much of effect of PD mode effects can HESH mimic.

However if we really take your own statements, If you say some of PD effects, I will take it as 50% of the effects for estimation. So
PD 50%
PDD 100%
Air burst 0%

With equal weights to each. AT BEST HESH = 50% of the new round.

=========================

In reality HESH has many other drawbacks, since it needs the rifled gun --> which itself is more expensive to make, wears out more often, and hence more expensive to maintain.

The cost of SABOT rounds on rifled guns are higher due to complexity issues as well.

So all in all HESH may have a role for big guns in specific roles, but certainly not for tanks.

And that is why even the British (whose role model following seems to be the case here for some

) are dropping rifled guns for Chally 2.

Soon the only tanks that will have rifled guns will be those Vina makes in his backyard.

srai · Post by **srai** » 29 Mar 2012 01:18

Ashish J wrote:Any one seen this??? has this been posted before???
This is a major surprise for me....FICV contract with M&M,,(please pardon if this has been posted before)

Talk of $2-bn defence deal lifts M&M stock
"The market is abuzz with speculation that the defence ministry has shortlisted Mahindra & Mahindra (M&M) for the much-awaited contract for providing the futuristic infantry combat vehicle (FICV) to the Indian army.

Talk is that M&M may secure one-fifth of the total deal worth $10 billion. The company could not be reached for comment. M&M shares rose 1% to 686.85 on Tuesday."
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/mar ... 435745.cms

If this is true and considering that DLSI (A Mahindra- BAE Systems Company) already exists, then most likely the FICV would be based on the BAE Systems' CV90.

vina · Post by **vina** » 29 Mar 2012 10:02

Sanku wrote:Lets get over the love of British please.

Indeed. Lets forget about good engineering practice and basics , but love the Russians, even in cases where some engineering choices are not suitable !

As always partial knowledge is a dangerous thing.

A 165 mm HESH roundmm gun solely for a 29 kg HESH shell.

Indeed . Sanku Maharaj Ji. What you highlighted is the WRONG thing. What is common between the two is the choice of HESH and not some kind of round for demolition and for a good reason. HESH packs the greatest amount of ammo in a tank round typically. For eg.

MBT != combat engineering vehicle.
125 mm != 165 mm
29 Kg != 18 kg.

But at 22 KG, the Arjuns HESH round is pretty close to 29KG of the 165 mm caliber round, and proportionally, the warhead! For a given caliber , the HESH delivers the largest amount of ammo on target! It will be brilliantly effective for demolition.

An MBT requires light weight shells which are effective in multiple roles, without compromising any of the features.

That is why HESH wont cut it. Since rifled guns which fire HESH are suboptimal for the main role of firing SABOTs, while smooth bores can easily fire shells which work more effectively than HESH of the same caliber.

The second statement and the first are oxymorons. The smoothbore tank without the specialized ammo, will perform just ONE role and that is anti tank via the main gun ! And the new fangled ammo like the isreali one or the tungsten ball filled anti personnel - APAM or framgentation are actually disadvantaged with a smooth bore, you lose range and accuracy and these rounds are anyway work only after they leave the barrel and they are basically a work around of the minuses of the smooth bore, which can do only one thing well, that is fire APFSDS and missiles.

With a muzzle velocity of 1650m/s for the arjun rifled gun when firing APFSDS, it compares splendidly with the Rheinmetall or other guns out there given similar barrel lengths!

Now with the primary weapons perfectly similar, the secondary weapon of the Arjun is far far better than a lame namby pamby one like the HEAT on smooth bores and specialized gee gaws that now get added. If needed, it will be a piece of laddu to engineer a fragmentation round for the rifled arjun , without going through the contortions the Isrealis went through and will have far better range and accuracy!

Vina dont pass of your imagination as facts, there is nothing remotely in any open source discussion that remotely suggests what you are saying is true.

Stop making things up.

Hmm. From "useless" to being shown that HESH was designed specifically for the kind of thing you deemed as "useless" to 50% effective to suboptimal is a step up from your make believe hallucinations.

But frankly, when it comes to anything related to engineering or basic engineering related common sense (I saw examples of that in the nuke thread as well), I am inclined to believe that you live in a world of make believe. Maybe you are a graduate of Social "Science" or Political "Science" or Social "Engineering" and should stick to sloganeering and the world of Dilli Politics rather than actually trying to poke around with science and engineering which work on facts and not on make believe!

Vina news for you even Arjun will move to smooth bores.

So much so for your love.

We shall see. Again you are letting your make believe run over reality. After R&D and research and perfecting the weapon, if anything, they will make a longer barrel of the current Gandiva if they want more penetrating power,especially if the Pakistani tanks armor up. Other wise the main gun is perfectly fine as is and they will carry on with it in all probabilty. It stands to no sense that they will go and engineer a inherently less flexible smooth bore, just to satisfy your fetishes and make believe.

vina · Post by **vina** » 29 Mar 2012 10:15

Sanku wrote:srai-ji, I really doubt how much of effect of PD mode effects can HESH mimic.

However if we really take your own statements, If you say some of PD effects, I will take it as 50% of the effects for estimation.

Ah.. 50% .. How did you pull that out of your Musharraf?

This nice Hole seems perfectly 100% to me. A nice round whole with circular burn marks just a a chappati went off against the wall. No half moon for you to declare 50% eh?

With equal weights to each. AT BEST HESH = 50% of the new round.

. Perfect example of madrassa math and shanghai stats rolled into one.
=========================

The cost of SABOT rounds on rifled guns are higher due to complexity issues as well.

The rotating collar will cost a few additional rupees and have been used by anti tank guns for donkeys years since 1960s to fire the sabots!

And that is why even the British (whose role model following seems to be the case here for some ) are dropping rifled guns for Chally 2.

Nope. That is because of economics. The installed base of Rheinmetall is much higher (US+Europe+ Isreal + Exports) and the Brits dont have the factories to produce the Chally rounds any more. In unless you say that you are going to import and license produce the Rheinmetall, it makes no sense. And oh, dont tell, import and produce the crap Russian 125mm. We made a dog's meal of license producing it until now.

koti · Post by **koti** » 29 Mar 2012 10:50

Just adding.

A HESH round has the max warhead weight. It creates extremely high temperatures on impact. Enough to cook the electronics and any lifeforms present in the turret in tanks(not in all types of them of course)

It also creates lethal shock waves inside and around any armored entities.

Good source
Quote from the source

HESH rounds are thin metal shells filled with plastic explosive and a delayed-action base fuse. The plastic explosive is "squashed" against the surface of the target on impact and spreads out to form a disc or "pat" of explosive. The base fuze detonates the explosive milliseconds later, creating a shock wave that, owing to its large surface area and direct contact with the target, is transmitted through the material. In the case of the metal armor of a tank the compression shock wave is conducted through the Armour to the point where it reaches the metal/air interface (the hollow crew compartment), where some of the energy is reflected as a tension wave. At the point where the compression and tension waves intersect a high stress zone is created in the metal, causing pieces of steel to be projected off the interior wall at high velocity. This fragmentation by blast wave is known as spalling, with the fragments themselves known as spall. The spall travels through the interior of the vehicle at high velocity, killing or injuring the crew, damaging equipment, and/or igniting ammunition and fuel. Unlike high explosive anti-tank (HEAT) rounds which are shaped charge ammunition, HESH shells are not specifically designed to perforate the armour of main battle tanks. HESH shells rely instead on the transmission of the shock wave through the solid steel armour.

HESH ammunition has good general purpose use being effective against most targets, though the round is generally used at relatively lower velocities because high velocity excessively disperses the pat of explosive. While only effective against tanks without spaced armor or spall liners, the round is still highly favored for combat demolition purposes. The flattened high-velocity explosive pat is capable of destroying concrete constructions much faster than a HEAT round (which is designed for armor penetration), and without the dangerous fragmentation of a traditional high explosive (HE) fragmentation round.

So, in short, it doesn't perforate the armour of vehicles by necessity. The shock wave effect will cause the spalling, and this is negatively affected by the use of spaced armour, explosive reactive armour, and composites. So, HESH is good against vehicles that have homogeneous armour, but not so good against more modern combat vehicles.

As well, HESH is awesome for its originally intended target: concrete. It was by happenstance that it was found to work against armour.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 29 Mar 2012 10:53

Vina, I am not interested in trading insults with you. Yes in your little world the HESH is best.

In real world, HESH is dead for tanks including Arjun.

That is all there is to it -- your assertions are actually quite meaningless.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 29 Mar 2012 21:25

Tata Motors may invest Rs 600 crore on FICV

In the context of the automobile big guys getting into armoured vehicles manufacturing.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 30 Mar 2012 07:40

Here is the real tank in action.
Arjun MKII

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... IArBrjpLX8

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 30 Mar 2012 07:43

Look at the target being hit bulls eye at 2.02

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Mar 2012 07:45

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/1525 ... 121186.jpg

from defexpo - here is a BMP2 mounted atop a truck. is this meant as a base protection asset for the army and IAF - a sort of mobile pillbox with heavy cannon and HMG firepower without the need to maintain the BMP engine and transmission, plus a higher shooting machan?

Mk2 Arjun seems to have gained a rotating drum type thermal imager near commander hatch.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 30 Mar 2012 07:49

Uddu:

That's not Arjun MK-11. It is not yet built. it is MK-1 on trials with elements for MK-II.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 30 Mar 2012 07:52

I understand Chakoji. There was an article by Ajay Shukla describing the same. This is without ERA fitted. But with about 90 or so changes mentioned by that article.
Added later: Here is that article http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2011/11/h ... oised.html
A heavier, more protected Arjun tank, called the Arjun Mark II, is poised for army trials. Scheduled for January and June 2012, successful trials would be the green signal for building 124 Arjun Mark IIs at the Heavy Vehicles Factory in Avadi, outside Chennai. These will supplement the 124 Arjuns Mark I already in frontline service.
So what's the information that you have about the trials. Is the Army testing the MKII variant in the deserts of Rajasthan?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 30 Mar 2012 07:57

^^^^ Good to see the firing part. MK-1 can also be upgraded to this I hope.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 30 Mar 2012 08:04

Firing seems already perfect. Long back the there was an article about the accuracy of the Arjun gun. Don't know this time whether any changes are made to the gun and firing. But overall there will be improvement because of better suspension etc.
Yes they seem to be fitting an Automatic tracking system called Automatic Video Tracker
http://idrw.org/?p=9063
The device becomes the ‘eyes’ of the tank as it maintains a constant surveillance for potential targets. Once a target is detected, information is passed on to the gunner, who then launches a weapon to destroy the target. The entire process takes no more than a fraction of a second.
A prototype of the device was successfully tested on Arjun tanks in the Pokhran range, Rajasthan recently. A slightly modified version of the device will be handed over to the army in about a month’s time.
French company. It requires the navigator to constantly keep an eye on either the monitor or the view finder to locate enemy targets — a difficult process as both are on the move.
“By the time the information is passed on to the gunner, the target would have escaped,” Sheshadri, a former DRDO scientist, said. “With the thermal imager, the navigator can only track the enemy, but he cannot lock on to it for that perfect strike.”
Considering these drawbacks, the DRDO had called for tenders inviting firms to devise and manufacture a mechanism that would lock on to a target irrespective of its speed and location.
“Once the device locks on to a target, the commander can forget about it,” Sheshadri said. “The tracker will take care of the rest. It collects intelligence inputs like location, distance, range etc and in less than a few milliseconds output is sent to the gunner who then fires a missile to destroy the target. It has zero error. Unlike the earlier mechanism, with this device you can save personnel from fatigue. For instance, the tank commander can attend to some other duty while the tracker locks on to the target.”

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 30 Mar 2012 08:13

The device has taken the pressure of comander. Even before that, Arjun's firing capability was proven.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 30 Mar 2012 08:17

Is the Arjun Mk-II going to have a anti-ATM system like Trophy?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 30 Mar 2012 08:29

One of my 2007 article Indian MoD outlines roadmap for MBT Arjun, Mark II in pipeline, Probably first ever on Arjun MK-11

As per the 14th parliamentary report of 2006 – 2007, Arjun Tank Mark – II production will be taken up after the successful completion of the first order of 124 Arjun tanks order.

While the govt order is for MK-I, the MK-II is actually getting delivered. Hypothetically, if second order was placed in advanced, probably we might not have seen MK-II is the second lot too.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 30 Mar 2012 08:35

what has been the impact on Arjun of the ban on Rheinmetall which makes its turrets?