Indian Naval Discussion

[Singha]

here is a page with reliable looking links for warship costs. I am posting the contents here, you may click the page link to follow up on the refs
http://newwars.wordpress.com/warship-costs/

SUBMARINES (SSBN, SSN, SSK)

Astute SSN (UK)-$2,410 million

Barracuda SSN (France)-$1.35 billion

Dolphin SSK (German/Israeli)-$635 million

Gotland SSK (Sweden)-$365 million

Improved Kilo SSK (Russia)-$350 million

Le Terrible SSBN (France)-$3.8 billion

Ohio SSBN Replacement-$7 billion (est.)

Scorpene SSK (Spain)-$825 million

Type 209 SSK (German/Portugal)-$550 million

Type 212 SSK (Germany)-$525 million

Type 214 SSK (Germany)-$500 million

Virginia SSN-$2.4 billion

*****

AIRCRAFT CARRIERS (VSTOL, CTOL)

Cavour CVH (Italy)-$2 billion

Charles de Gaulle (France)-$3.7 billion

CVN-78 Gerald R Ford-$13.5 billion

Queen Elizabeth (UK)-$3.7 billion

George HW Bush-$6.26 billion

Hyuga DDH (Japan)-$1.06 billion

Vikrant (India)-$762 million

*****

CRUISERS/DESTROYERS

DDG 51 Arleigh Burke-$1.8 billion

Daring Type 45 (UK)-$976 million

DDG 1000 Zumwalt-$6 billion

*****

FRIGATES

Absalon (Denmark)-$269 million

Bertholf National Security Cutter-$641 million

F100 Bazan (Spain)-$600 million

F105 Cristobal Colon (Spain)-$954 million

De Zeven Provincien (Netherlands)-$532 million

FREMM (Franco/Italian)-$745 million // possible base of P17A

LCS Freedom-$637 million

Holland (Netherlands)-$169 million

LCS Independence-$704 million

Iver Huitfeldt (Denmark)-$332 millon

Nansen (Norway)-$557 million

Sachsen Type 124 (Germany)-$1.06 billion

Valour MEKO A200 (South Africa)-$327 million

F-22P Zulfiquar (China/Pakistan)-$200 million

*****

CORVETTES/OPVs/CUTTERS

Baynunah (UAE)-$137 million

Braunschweig K-130 (Germany)-$309 million

Clyde (Britain)-$47,000,000

Falaj 2 (UAE)-$136 million

Khareef (Oman)-$262 million

Kedah (Malaysia)-$300 million

Knud Rasmussen (Denmark)-$50 million

BAM Maritime Action Ship (Spain)-$116 million

MILGEM corvettes (Turkey)-$250 million

Otago (New Zealand)-$62.6 million

Port of Spain (Trinidad and Tobago)-$76 million

River (Britain)-$31,400,000

Sarah Baartman/ Damen 8313 OPV (South Africa)-$20 million

Sentinel-$47 million

Sigma (Indonesian/Moroccan)-$222 million

Visby (Sweden)-$184 million

*****

FAST ATTACK CRAFT

Ambassador MK III (Egypt/USA)-$325 million

Cyclone patrol craft-$31 million

Hamina (Finland)-$101 million

Rotoiti (New Zealand)-$25 million

Skjold (Norway)-$133.5 million

M80 Stiletto-$6 million

*****

AMPHIBIOUS SHIPS

America LHA-$3.05 billion

Bay LSD (Britain)-$228 million

Canberra LHD (Australia)-$1.3 billion

General Frank S. Besson LSV-$32 million

KRI Dr. Soeharso LPD (Indonesia)-$50 million

Endurance LST (Singapore)-$142 million

Johan de Witt LPD (Netherlands)-$370 million

Juan Carlos (Spain)-$490 million

Kunlan Shan LPD (China)-$300 million

Makin Island LHD-$2.2 billion

San Antonio LHD-$1.76 billion

Mistral (France)-$529.8 million

*****

AUXILIARIES

Type 702 Berlin AOR (Germany)-$445 million

MRV Canterbury (New Zealand)-$124 million

Joint High Speed Vessel (JHSV)-$160 million

Lewis and Clark (T-AKE)-$538 million

USNS Howard O. Lorenzen (T-AGM-25)-$199 million

Patino AOR (Spain)-$288 million

Sea Fighter FSF 1-$200 million

Wave Knight Auxiliary Oiler(Britain)–$172 million

[Singha]

Project 28, Kamorta-class corvettes (India) : INR125.6 billion for 4 ships, i.e. about $2,807 million for 4 ships, i.e. about $702 million per unit.
Initial cost estimate was INR80 billion for 4 ships, i.e. about $1,788 million for 4 ships, i.e. about $447 million per unit.
India Today, August 5, 2011
--
Project 17, Shivalik-class FFGs (India) : INR208 billion for 3 ships, i.e. about $4,649 million for 3 ships, i.e. about $1,550 million per unit.
Initial cost estimate was INR80 billion for 3 ships, i.e. about $1,788 million for 3 ships, i.e. about $596 million per unit.
Source : India Today, August 5, 2011
----
Project 15A, Kolkata-class DDGs (built in Russia for India) : INR360 billion for 3 ships, i.e. about $8,046 million for 3 ships, i.e. about $2,682 million per unit.
Initial cost estimate was INR160 billion for 3 ships, i.e. about $3,576 million for 3 ships, i.e. about $1,192 million per unit.
Source : India Today, August 5, 2011
----

so 200-300% cost escalation over initial estimate seems to be common worldwide.

Khan is in a whole alternate dimension all on its own. even a CG cutter is unlikely to come under $1billion once the requirements creep has taken place, all the bells fitted and the contractors have added thick padding .... on the +ve side their ships employ the costliest of damage control, redundancy, EW, C4I on a no-holds barred khan style basis. so they are generally more survivable than more austere ships of similar size in other navies.

building a good navy sure isnt cheap these days "billion is the new million"

F105 of Spain is the 5th ship of the F100 class (SPY1F Aegis-lite AAW + SM2)...it started sea trials two weeks ago.
http://worlddefencenews.blogspot.in/201 ... f-105.html

imo the FREEM with its tall mainmast for radar is more suited to the MFSTAR than the SPY radar fitting of the Bazan class though.
and it faces the crippling drawback of having only 1 heli.
Improvements over the rest of the class
The design of the Christopher Columbus includes several improvements over the original design of the class. Bravo 16V incorporates new engines which increases its speed and a bow thruster of 850 kW for operation in port. The weapons and combat systems, adding a Mk-38 cannon of 25 mm for close defense, a new control system and submarine electronic warfare, an Aries radar surface surveillance, improved SPY-1D radar, and improvements in communications systems and command and control. You can also operate helicopters NH 90 to expand the hangar and flight deck.

FREMM is far more in tune with P17 shape and mounts two helis , plus MFSTAR will go nicely on that mast instead of herakles or empar.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9jsQvFMHDAw/T ... GENT_1.jpg

[Singha]

IN is planning airbase in Karwar
http://shaktiraj25.blogspot.in/2012/03/ ... se-in.html

[Will]

Project 15A, Kolkata-class DDGs (built in Russia for India) : INR360 billion for 3 ships, i.e. about $8,046 million for 3 ships, i.e. about $2,682 million per unit.
Initial cost estimate was INR160 billion for 3 ships, i.e. about $3,576 million for 3 ships, i.e. about $1,192 million per unit.
Source : India Today, August 5, 2011
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The 15A class is being built at Mazgaon docks in mumbai not in Russia.

[John]

Another flagship programme to construct state-of-the-art stealth frigates, known as Project 17, has overshot its estimate of Rs.8,000 crore by 260 per cent.


Read more at: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indi ... 47120.html

Project 17, Shivalik-class FFGs (India) : INR208 billion for 3 ships, i.e. about $4,649 million for 3 ships, i.e. about $1,550 million per unit.
Initial cost estimate was INR80 billion for 3 ships, i.e. about $1,788 million for 3 ships, i.e. about $596 million per unit.
Source : India Today, August 5, 2011

Singha those numbers are incorrect for example Shivaliks' final cost is 8000 crores and initial estimate was around 2500 crores. No way is IN going afford a 2.7 billion dollar figure for P-15As That said Talwar frigate cheap price tag (P-28s final price tag will easily be over 500 mill/each) makes a tempting alternative to maintain numbers.

If were to build these today here is my estimates on their price tags:

Talwar ~ 550 million
P-28 ~ 450 million+
Shivalik ~ 700 million
P-15A ~ 1 billion+

John sir, any inputs on what clsass if any will be the basis of the P17A , who is the foreign consultant or whether it will be a totally desi design?

Likely an evolution of FREMM (like 2 Helos) but i don't see much happening in this front for another couple years.

[Singha]

the Talwars also have the advantage of being delivered quicker than domestic yards do.

but opex of the P28 might be less which might tilt scale towards more P28 vs more Talwar. not everything needs a brahmos solution. they each carry 1 heli so thats ==. they might also be more suited to the ASW role due to quieter power plant and machinery.

[Aditya G]

We also need to replace Sukanya class OPVs for Low intensity conflicts.

- Long range
- Light armament
- Support for Seaking class helicopter
- Large deck area
- Fast

I think there have been too many FAC purchases in recent past ... need something more heavy duty

[SNaik]

Explosion on Vikramaditya. Waiting for details how serious.

First update: Explosion in the engine room, probably a steam pipe rupture.

[Singha]

oh brother...thats all we needed. didnt it suffer another engine room serious fire in early 90s?

[SNaik]

oh brother...thats all we needed. didnt it suffer another engine room serious fire in early 90s?

Right you are. In this case at least fire is not reported. Yet...

[Philip]

Let's hope it was not serious.

Talwars are very cost-effective and come packed with weaponry and capability,which is why the Russian navy is ordering them too.We may indeed order another batch which would be wise,as they would also be Brahmos equipped and far cheaper than the Shivaliks which are expensive vessels.The P-28s might be a very good acquisition provided we build them on time and keep costs within budget.If we also acquire about a dozen of the coastal ASW corvettes mentioned in a report not too long ago,which could be larger than the Pauks around the Kora class displacement,we would have a good number of ASW vessels for littoral and blue-water ops,given the huge number of enemy subs which will operate in the IOR by the next decade.

[Shrinivasan]

oh brother...thats all we needed. didnt it suffer another engine room serious fire in early 90s?

Today there was a bombing at the Gorshkov! A friend said he tried to start engines today, did not, well, something was broken off the pressure, he said something like the exhaust pipe .
learn more, but believe you can!

Awaiting some official news...see original @
http://kuleshovoleg.livejournal.com/36630.html
Translation courtesy Google Chacha.

[Surya]

sigh

hope the crew is all ok

[Philip]

Very useful table Singha.It gives us a clear picture of intl. warships and subs and their costs,for us to see what the actual cost of indigenisation adds up to.

[Singha]

the F22P must be a truly austere FFG to weigh in at $200mil. ofcourse with sino-pak combine you never know the true cost and what it covers.
its less than half the cost of our P28 which is likely a bit smaller also.

[uddu]

The main reason for cost increase of Indian ships is the lack of indigenous development. About 60 percent or so is built here and the remaining is said to be imported. Also the delay in suppy of steel etc from Russia adds to this delay and cost escalation. Hope we can increase the indigenous content in warships to a very high extent with supply of steel from SAIL etc. Another area of concern in Engines and weaponary.
http://livefist.blogspot.in/2011/08/tim ... rship.html
Above this is the inability of the Indian shipyard to modernize so that they can deliver ships on time. Another area is the changes that the Navy makes after a design is fixed. Midway change also lead to issues and delays. There are many more.
http://saiindia.gov.in/english/home/Our ... /chap4.pdf
Hope the shipyards can overcome this problem and modernize fast so that the next set of warships are delivered on time.

[chackojoseph]

Second stream of Indian Navy crew trained for INS Vikramaditya

[koti]

Wikipedia: INS Chennai

It is given that INS Kolkata/Chennai has Barak 8.
Can any one tell what SAM system INS Kolkata/Chennai will have?
Barak 8 IIRC is to enter service only by 2017, where as the Kolkata class are to be commissioned by 2015.

[Snehashis]

Wikipedia: INS Chennai

It is given that INS Kolkata/Chennai has Barak 8.
Can any one tell what SAM system INS Kolkata/Chennai will have?
Barak 8 IIRC is to enter service only by 2017, where as the Kolkata class are to be commissioned by 2015.

Koti, the plan was to induct the Barak 8 from 2013 onwards. Several crucial tests were scheduled in the first two months of this year. Any reason for this delay in induction ?

[Viv S]

Canada's Arctic claims


PARIS — One's name was Rubis, her rival's Trafalgar. The first was a French submarine, the second British. Neither sub class now guards Canada's Far North sovereignty. Yet some 18 years ago, Ottawa almost decided to buy up to a dozen such nuclear-powered U-boats to defend its long-contested claim over the water and seabed of those vast polar territories in red on your map.




Trafalgar Class




Rubis Class

Now Europeans gape as five nations press claims to "our" energy-and-minerals-rich Arctic seabed. They chuckle as a metre-high titanium Russian flag planted on the ocean floor panics our current prime minister into going north as our sovereignty goes south. They marvel at his surface-only Canadian response: a few, years-late coastal patrol ships, modest military and naval bases, and an amateur militia of Inuit "Rangers."

Again Canada defends its North with bombast, symbols and long-to-happen half-reforms. It abandons effective presence on "its" Arctic seabed where the riches lie. Only under-ice nuclear subs can patrol there: this summer, HMCS Corner Brook, a second-hand diesel-electric submarine, travelled north, but couldn't go far under the ice.

In recent days, I interviewed two key players in the late 1980s nuclear sub debacle. One Canadian, one French. Both agree that in renouncing nuclear-powered subs Canada missed more than the U-boat. It likely forever missed its chance of exercising the Arctic sovereignty it claims.

My first expert was Perrin Beatty, Brian Mulroney's defence minister (1986-89). Beatty deplores the "lost opportunity" of the nuclear-powered submarines. "Now we have to play catch-up," he says. In a 1988 speech outlining his White Paper on defence, Beatty argued that "the events of the past year (the crumbling Soviet Bloc) have served to confirm both the feasibility and the desirability of our building a small fleet of nuclear-propelled submarines ... they will — for the first time — permit Canada's navy to participate in the defence of the Arctic."

U.S. navy and diplomatic chiefs, he notes, fought giving Canada the U.S. submarine technology. In spite of Mulroney-Reagan coziness, they never accepted Canada's sovereignty over Arctic waters. And they thought Canadians too primitive to handle nuclear propulsion.

The Tories organized a competition between the French and British designs. But public pressure, featuring scary polls, convinced them that "nuclear" submarines would tag them as warmongers. With an election looming, they dropped the whole project. This delighted our Arctic rivals, especially the U.S. It enchanted Canada's anti-military "peace community." But it left Canada's seabed open to year-round, under-ice patrols only by the U.S. and Russia -- plus, in theory, Britain and France.

My second expert, Franois Bujon de l'Estang, was France's ambassador to Canada (1989-91) at the height of the sub debate, then ambassador to Washington. He notes that in the Rubis-Trafalgar competition, Canada's navy chose the Rubis in spite of bitter U.K.-U.S. opposition. France offered its technology "without restriction," while the U.S. (owning the Trafalgar's technology) would not relent.

After a three-year public debate, Mulroney sank the seabed subs for "budgetary" reasons. "Although lacking a smoking gun," says Bujon de l'Estang, "I was always convinced that Washington's pressures weighed heavily in this, and were likely decisive. The truth is, the U.S. didn't want (and still doesn't) Canada to be able to protect its own territory, especially the Arctic. (That's why) they refused to allow transfer of the (U.S.-leased) Trafalgar technology. ... With Russia's pretensions," he adds, "this is singularly timely ... Canada certainly did miss the boat with the Conservative government's 1990-91 decision."

A final irony? The incidental alliance between a U.S. determined to stop Canada from exercising its northern sovereignty, and Canada's left-leaning, anti-nuke nationalists. The latter muddied the debate by harping on "nuclear subs," as though they were nuclear-armed, not nuclear-powered. In the end, our "nationalists" won the debate ... and helped lose it for Canada. Washington, not Ottawa, still controls our Arctic, brazenly sending nuclear-powered subs through an ice-bound Northwest Passage Canada itself can't use. Or even monitor — the bare minimum for sustaining a sovereignty claim.

Our main rivals now launch major efforts to explore, and later claim, links to the undersea Lomonosov Ridge — a 1,800-kilometre-long key to huge swaths of the Arctic seabed. The U.S. and Russia are sending undersea missions to explore and map the area. They will present their evidence to a United Nations Law of the Sea commission.

How much is sovereignty worth? Is that a question you could even imagine another French expert on sovereignty, Charles de Gaulle, asking? Beatty sums up Canada's choice by quoting former Canadian vice-admiral Charles Thomas: "You can have as much sovereignty as you're willing to pay for."

So how much are we game to pay?

Fooling itself, but not the world, Canada still hopes to defend its vast, contested Arctic with little gestures, loud words and loose change.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________





I wish we too would cancel the intended second line of SSKs and introduce a competition between the British Astute class, French Barracuda class and Russian Yasen class. The Scorpene for example, is restricted to a maximum speed of around 20 knots submerged (that too only in bursts/sprints), which is fine for laying an ambush near the Malacca Straits or mining the port of Gwadar, but only an SSN can keep up with surface ships and participate in fleet actions. The Akula will be out by 2022 and the Arihant class is intended to complete the nuclear triad rather than engage in combat (besides unless HSL/DRDO/BARC have pulled off a technological miracle, its likely to be much louder than its contemporaries), leaving the IN's three carrier groups with no undersea complement.

[Kailash]

Was this posted?

Navy to get N-powered submarine in the next few days

[Kailash]

India-Sri Lanka joint sea patrolling sought

Visits by navy ships to boost Saudi-India maritime ties

[Aditya G]

the F22P must be a truly austere FFG to weigh in at $200mil. ofcourse with sino-pak combine you never know the true cost and what it covers.
its less than half the cost of our P28 which is likely a bit smaller also.

Its like the JF-17 of FFGs

[srai]

Wikipedia: INS Chennai

It is given that INS Kolkata/Chennai has Barak 8.
Can any one tell what SAM system INS Kolkata/Chennai will have?
Barak 8 IIRC is to enter service only by 2017, where as the Kolkata class are to be commissioned by 2015.

Koti, the plan was to induct the Barak 8 from 2013 onwards. Several crucial tests were scheduled in the first two months of this year. Any reason for this delay in induction ?

I think there is a confusion regarding which Barak-NG/8 system you are referring to. The IAF version Barak-8 is not going to be ready until after 2015. The Navy variant Barak-NG, which started R&D at least 3 years earlier than the IAF variant, should be ready in the next two years.

[John]

the F22P must be a truly austere FFG to weigh in at $200mil. ofcourse with sino-pak combine you never know the true cost and what it covers.
its less than half the cost of our P28 which is likely a bit smaller also.

The vessel cost was subsized by China no true figure on how much it costs (roughly around 300 million) and that figure doesn't include sensors that Pakistan plans on installation later on.

[vishvak]

As a side note
From this link: Indian navy - history

The piracy by the Portuguese was challenged by the Zamorin of Calicut when Vasco da Gama, after obtaining permission to trade, refused to pay the customs levy. Two major engagements were fought during this period. The first, the Battle of Cochin in 1503, clearly revealed the weakness of the Indian navies and indicated to the Europeans an opportunity for building a naval empire. The second engagement off Diu in 1509 gave the Portuguese mastery over Indian seas, and laid the foundation of European control over Indian waters for the next 400 years.

About Battle of Cochin - Wikilink Battle of Cochin (1504)

[chackojoseph]

I understand wrong thread. But, BR folks who are interested:

DCNS signs a cooperation agreement with the IIT Bombay

[Aditya G]

We also need to replace Sukanya class OPVs for Low intensity conflicts.

- Long range
- Light armament
- Support for Seaking class helicopter
- Large deck area
- Fast

I think there have been too many FAC purchases in recent past ... need something more heavy duty

Someone is listening:

[Austin]

Latest India Today issues has few snippets on INS Chakra ( Nerpa )

1 ) Sub comes with no strings attached it can be used in war , unlike previous chakra lease
2 ) Currently its on a more than 5000 km all submerged voyage to india , will travel via China , Japan , Philippines and Indonesia archipelago
3 ) Chakra control room is as big as the size of Kilo submarine
4 ) It has a integrated fin mounted spherical escape sphere , its 20 foot wide and 50 foot tall ,can accomodate all 100 crew in emergency and can ascent to surface
5 ) Larger Arihant in the make will be 12000T and will carry 5000 km SLBM.

[Kersi D]

We also need to replace Sukanya class OPVs for Low intensity conflicts.

- Long range
- Light armament
- Support for Seaking class helicopter
- Large deck area
- Fast

I think there have been too many FAC purchases in recent past ... need something more heavy duty

We should standardise and use P 28 hull & engines. Top gear can be modified / reduced as required

[Singha]

the Chakra route is the typical one for submarines crossing between IOR and Pacific - the straits between sumatra-java, java-bali and a couple more further east near gili islands and timor.

no submarine uses the Malacca strait and all this talk of "blocking" the PLAN submarine activity by monitoring the malacca is midirected. we need to focus on how to catch subs slipping through these gaps in indonesian chain and disappearing into a deep water trench area to the south....once they break out, the vast empty reaches of the middle and southern IOR is a challenge for anyone to monitor. suffice it to say its impossible for even khan to properly monitor the IOR with just diego and australia as a base.

[Dilbu]

Enter the shark: INS Chakra

[Vasu]

I cannot imagine anything scarier than being on the high seas in the twilight, and seeing the black hull of a nuke sub, or any sub for that matter, rising in front of me.

That fourth picture gives me that feeling.

[Singha]

a beautiful piece of industrial and functional design no doubt. I like the massive reserve buoyancy of the russian double hull 'heavy' subs of which Akula is one. can sustain some leaks and knocks and still remain afloat.

as a shark she has already claimed the lives of people in the torpedo room fire extinguishing accident. RIP poor souls. I hope Varuna, neptune and poseidon do not demand any more blood.

[srai]

We also need to replace Sukanya class OPVs for Low intensity conflicts.

- Long range
- Light armament
- Support for Seaking class helicopter
- Large deck area
- Fast

I think there have been too many FAC purchases in recent past ... need something more heavy duty

Someone is listening:

These look to be the new NOPV, which the IN has ordered nine of them. These are of similar design/dimension to the P-28 ASW Corvette except NOPVs are more lightly armed and possess less sophisticated sensors.

[Philip]

Good news about the larger ATVs carrying ICBMs.The "4-pack" module on ATV-1 will probably see a few more added .

[Aditya G]

Thanks srai and Kersi, I believe this is the boat:

http://www.goashipyard.co.in/products_s ... vessel.asp

It seems ICG will also be sharing the platform.

[Christopher Sidor]

We know that 3 follow on SSBN are planned. And most probably the second and third, i.e. S-2 and S-3, SSBN will carry the 1500 km SLBM.

But what I would really like to know is that are there any 2500-3000 km SLBM planned? These would put most of the southern China easily within range from Bay of Bengal. So we would not need not worry about our second-strike option getting neutralized by any Chinky hunter killer.

[chackojoseph]

But what I would really like to know is that are there any 2500-3000 km SLBM planned? These would put most of the southern China easily within range from Bay of Bengal. So we would not need not worry about our second-strike option getting neutralized by any *deleted* hunter killer.

Interesting question.

1) if our nuke subs venture too far, someone might take out out nooks n mijjil and send crew back home after questioning. Else we will have to guard them with a fleet.

2) if you have to keep them in bay of bengal, then why bother with a nook sub? Build pantoons, transportable at last minutes.

[arunsrinivasan]

We know that 3 follow on SSBN are planned. And most probably the second and third, i.e. S-2 and S-3, SSBN will carry the 1500 km SLBM.

This has been clarified many times in the past - S-2 is Arihant. & there are 2 more planned S-3 & S-4. S-1 was the test hull.