Actually, not all gunsmiths in India are illegal. There are legal guys in most medium and large cities in India. Apparently, thanks to the questionable quality of IOF's products, many of them are able to stay in business .shiv wrote: I think that statement is disconnected with reality in India.
There are plenty of private gunsmiths. All are illegal. Because all are illegal there is no quality control and a need to keep prices well below international rates to suit the common criminal or goon who needs a gun and will never get a licence.
Small Arms Thread
Re: Small Arms Thread
Re: Small Arms Thread
I think we should stop banging INSAS. The production run is practically complete and now we should design an new rifle. DRDO had issued a proposal in 2005 but till 2010 Army had barred it from developing a new rifle as imports were preferred.
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Re: Small Arms Thread
the statement quoted is out of the context due to my lack of better putting together what i really intended to convey,shiv wrote:I think that statement is disconnected with reality in India.Sandeep_ghosh wrote: With no private gunsmiths there will never be any innovation
There are plenty of private gunsmiths. All are illegal. Because all are illegal there is no quality control and a need to keep prices well below international rates to suit the common criminal or goon who needs a gun and will never get a licence. Innovative pistols in pens and guns in walking sticks are all fashioned, never standardized and carry no guarantees.
The presence of private gunsmiths per se is not enough for innovation. There has to be a market and competition. Both the latter are illegal in India. For small arms at any rate.
If gunsmithing and private firarms manufacturers existed in India, better innovation could have been expected as we see in the revolution in the automobile industry today, aren't we developing vehicles that are giving foreign companies a run for their money.
If private manufacturers were allowed to develop, say ammunition and firearms for armed forces, we could very well see modular survival weapon systems for the air force pilots, better handguns and better carbines for the security and police forces which still carry lee enfield rifles. An entire new field of engineering could opened up for talented engineers and innovators.
Ammunition like 7.62 x 51, 5.56 x 45 nato, 0.338 lapua magnum, 6.5x47mm Lapua, 6.5mm Grendel all were developed by private firms. I dont believe that we do not posses the innovation to solve the range and penetration requirements of the Indian Armed forces. The contribution of India to firearms for its own armed forces has been zero due to non-existence of an engineering sector that specializes in firearms and ballistics.
It's not just about Insas, what about other weapon systems, where is the semi auto-pistol, carbines, bolt action precision rifles, semi auto sniper systems, Light machine guns, squad support rifles,
If the public sector is incapable of delivering, why is the private sector not being involved.
Re: Small Arms Thread
Sandeep ji .I feel that we are going in circles. Your contention is that private sector and gunsmithing(legalised form) will improve the quality of firearms.Fair enough.This is one point on which I will elaborate further since I have my own thoughts.Before I come to it , I will reiterate what we are saying.Sandeep_ghosh wrote:
the statement quoted is out of the context due to my lack of better putting together what i really intended to convey,
If gunsmithing and private firarms manufacturers existed in India, better innovation could have been expected as we see in the revolution in the automobile industry today, aren't we developing vehicles that are giving foreign companies a run for their money.
If private manufacturers were allowed to develop, say ammunition and firearms for armed forces, we could very well see modular survival weapon systems for the air force pilots, better handguns and better carbines for the security and police forces which still carry lee enfield rifles. An entire new field of engineering could opened up for talented engineers and innovators.
Ammunition like 7.62 x 51, 5.56 x 45 nato, 0.338 lapua magnum, 6.5x47mm Lapua, 6.5mm Grendel all were developed by private firms. I dont believe that we do not posses the innovation to solve the range and penetration requirements of the Indian Armed forces. The contribution of India to firearms for its own armed forces has been zero due to non-existence of an engineering sector that specializes in firearms and ballistics.
It's not just about Insas, what about other weapon systems, where is the semi auto-pistol, carbines, bolt action precision rifles, semi auto sniper systems, Light machine guns, squad support rifles,
If the public sector is incapable of delivering, why is the private sector not being involved.
That is Private sector/gunsmithing is not feasible without a market.Period.So even before you start courting private parties for firearms production you have to show them that a market is ready for them.And only if they find it viable they will even think of investing in firearms production.
Now the problem is that this market is not there in India.So why would any private sector player sink his money into such an endeavour.I will give you an example.I mean many of us here work in corporate sector.If we suggest our company to enter a new business , we have to prepare a comprehensive business report detailing the opportunities,market size,ROI etc to convince the top management.Now can you imagine if an employee prepares a report where market is non existent and ROI is not guaranteed , then what will be the reaction of the decision takers ? Most probably that report would be shoved in some obscure shelf.After all main purpose of running a business is not charity.
I also tried to analyse how to create a market for guns.I could come up with two methods.The first one is you allow civilians to keep,bear and use weapons(I am all for it).This is how the market has been created in USA. Currently this is not the case with India.Mostly the people who can carry weapons belong to security forces which is not that big of a market.The second method is that of exports.This model is used by PRC.But then in order to succeed in exporting firearms you have to be ready to sell weapons to all and sundry including countries/organisations which are involved in serious human rights violations.PRC does it extremely well.They deal regularly with rogue countries like Sudan,arms smugglers,insurgent outfits etc.This is how PRC companies make money.Now this is also not allowed by Indian govt , according to which you have to seek case by case approval for exporting weapons system.Exporting weapons to dubious organizations is almost impossible in India.But then you cannot sell these arms to a developed country.Most probably they will be producing their own firearms.
You gave an example of automobile industry in India.But the fact is that Automobile manufacturers know that they have a big market in India.Apart fro that they are also allowed to export.
Coming back to OFB. The question arises howcome OFB is able to survive inspite of limited market.The answer lies in the fact that OFB produces practically thousands of items from clothing to munitions.Hence even if it incurs a loss on firearms it can make money somewhere else.No private sector can hope to match the product portfolio of OFB in the near future.
So now you tell me why would any private sector invest in firearms ?
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Re: Small Arms Thread
darshhan wrote:
Sandeep ji .I feel that we are going in circles. Your contention is that private sector and gunsmithing(legalised form) will improve the quality of firearms.Fair enough.This is one point on which I will elaborate further since I have my own thoughts.Before I come to it , I will reiterate what we are saying.
That is Private sector/gunsmithing is not feasible without a market.Period.So even before you start courting private parties for firearms production you have to show them that a market is ready for them.And only if they find it viable they will even think of investing in firearms production.
Now the problem is that this market is not there in India.So why would any private sector player sink his money into such an endeavour.I will give you an example.I mean many of us here work in corporate sector.If we suggest our company to enter a new business , we have to prepare a comprehensive business report detailing the opportunities,market size,ROI etc to convince the top management.Now can you imagine if an employee prepares a report where market is non existent and ROI is not guaranteed , then what will be the reaction of the decision takers ? Most probably that report would be shoved in some obscure shelf.After all main purpose of running a business is not charity.
I also tried to analyse how to create a market for guns.I could come up with two methods.The first one is you allow civilians to keep,bear and use weapons(I am all for it).This is how the market has been created in USA. Currently this is not the case with India.Mostly the people who can carry weapons belong to security forces which is not that big of a market.The second method is that of exports.This model is used by PRC.But then in order to succeed in exporting firearms you have to be ready to sell weapons to all and sundry including countries/organisations which are involved in serious human rights violations.PRC does it extremely well.They deal regularly with rogue countries like Sudan,arms smugglers,insurgent outfits etc.This is how PRC companies make money.Now this is also not allowed by Indian govt , according to which you have to seek case by case approval for exporting weapons system.Exporting weapons to dubious organizations is almost impossible in India.But then you cannot sell these arms to a developed country.Most probably they will be producing their own firearms.
You gave an example of automobile industry in India.But the fact is that Automobile manufacturers know that they have a big market in India.Apart fro that they are also allowed to export.
Coming back to OFB. The question arises howcome OFB is able to survive inspite of limited market.The answer lies in the fact that OFB produces practically thousands of items from clothing to munitions.Hence even if it incurs a loss on firearms it can make money somewhere else.No private sector can hope to match the product portfolio of OFB in the near future.
So now you tell me why would any private sector invest in firearms ?
the reason why private sector can invest in it is because,
1,129,900 active Army personnel, 960,000 Reserve forces
58,350 Active Navy personnel, 55,000 Reserve forces
127,200 IAF active personnel 140,000 Reserve forces
Indian Coast Guard 9,550
1,300,586 Indian Paramilitary Forces 987,821 Reserve forces
That brings the active military strength at around 1315450, for a pessimistic projection say 1/2 of them are combatants in case of war that is around 6.5 lakh combatants, may be we can project a weapons requirement to down toless than even half of that (3 lakhs) 2.5 lakh battle rifles and equal number of side arm like semi auto handgun, and around 20,000 squad support rifles, another 20,000 carbines (assume intermediate caliber) and say 10,000 precision marksman rifles.
Reserve forces have an approximate strength of around say 1155000, forget arming them completely, just to train them 1 rifle for 10 reservists, thats nearly 1.15lakh rifles, which can be broken down into 30,000 battle rifles, bolt rifles and .22 semi auto training rifles respectively.
ignoring the coast guard and para military reserve forces, we still have around 13 lakh para mil forces, again say half of them can be combatants, bringing a projection of arming say 3 lakh units with semi auto handguns with the addition of a carbine/battle rifle of less 1/2 of them.
thats around 3 lakh semi auto pistols and around 1lakh carbines (say pistol caliber) and 50000 battle rifles.
that pessimistically projects a requirement of
Battle rifles 280000 units, (assume 70,000 7.62 Nato, 210000 5.56 Nato)
Carbines 120000 (80000 5.56 caliber, 40,000 .45acp)
Semi auto Handguns 550000 (9mm)
Squad support rifles 20000
Precision Sniper rifles 10000
Bolt action rifles 30000
.22 training rifles 30000
for sake of simplicity lets assume dirt cheap prices for all of them
battle rifle both calibers 500$ (same as insas)
carbines say 400$ (although cxstorm is nearly 1200$)
semi auto handguns at 400$ (although a berreta 92fs iss 600$)
Squad support rifles at 2000$
precision sniper rifle at 2500$ (although even a used dragonuv is around 3000$ and barret m82 runs you 5000$)
Bolt action rifle at 300$ (savage fcns is around twice that price)
.22 training rifle at 150$ (ruger 10/22 around 300$)
Battle rifles 140 Mil dollars
Carbines 48 Mil dollars
Semi auto Handguns 220 Mil dollars
Squad support rifles 40 Mil dollars
Precision Sniper rifles 25 Mil dollars
Bolt action rifles 9 Mil dollars
.22 training rifles 4.5 Mil dollars
With pessimistic projections of changing 1/4th of armed forces weaponry and 1/4th of paramilitary you are roughly looking at an approximate half a billion dollar market over a span of say 5 years.
Re: Small Arms Thread
Sandeep the cost of new infrastructure, tooling and research is ultimately borne by the customer. So the smaller the numbers the higher the cost. You have small numbers and low cost. You are stating cost beforehand as if those figures can be met from factories that do not exist producing relatively limited runs. The way you make your argument you have to be right. As long as your assumptions are correct and I don't think they are.Sandeep_ghosh wrote: that pessimistically projects a requirement of
Battle rifles 280000 units, (assume 70,000 7.62 Nato, 210000 5.56 Nato)
Carbines 120000 (80000 5.56 caliber, 40,000 .45acp)
Semi auto Handguns 550000 (9mm)
Squad support rifles 20000
Precision Sniper rifles 10000
Bolt action rifles 30000
.22 training rifles 30000
for sake of simplicity lets assume dirt cheap prices for all of them
You have listed 1 million firearms of various types. if there are just 3 competitive manufacturers who have to start from scratch, design, test and produce a weapon - they still get only a restricted market and no chance of expanding their markets. After one production run, they get no guarantee of repeat orders and the law does not allow them to expand their market. And if there is a failure/complaints as there are bound to be, a huge investment can go down the drain. No sensible businessman would touch this restricted market with a barge pole.
On the other hand Indian laws now seem to invite competitive global bidding. Existing private manufacturers will typically be able to beat any new kid on the block. To keep them out India will have to "protect" the private gun makers of India. But protection leads to OFB quality. Catch 22.
Ultimately a free market counts. If private arms makers can set up shop in India and export to others - like car makers are doing then it would be different. For that the government has to approve foreign direct investment in small arms manufacture and make it attractive for the investor to put in money and a plant in collaboration with an Indian unit so that both can make a profit.
And lastly a fundamental rule in successful businesses. Every company does well as long as it stays close to its core competence where they have the manpower skills to keep the profits coming. here is no company in India other than OFB that has core competence in arms manufacture.
india really is backward in this area.
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Re: Small Arms Thread
shiv wrote: Sandeep the cost of new infrastructure, tooling and research is ultimately borne by the customer. So the smaller the numbers the higher the cost. You have small numbers and low cost. You are stating cost beforehand as if those figures can be met from factories that do not exist producing relatively limited runs. The way you make your argument you have to be right. As long as your assumptions are correct and I don't think they are.
You have listed 1 million firearms of various types. if there are just 3 competitive manufacturers who have to start from scratch, design, test and produce a weapon - they still get only a restricted market and no chance of expanding their markets. After one production run, they get no guarantee of repeat orders and the law does not allow them to expand their market. And if there is a failure/complaints as there are bound to be, a huge investment can go down the drain. No sensible businessman would touch this restricted market with a barge pole.
On the other hand Indian laws now seem to invite competitive global bidding. Existing private manufacturers will typically be able to beat any new kid on the block. To keep them out India will have to "protect" the private gun makers of India. But protection leads to OFB quality. Catch 22.
Ultimately a free market counts. If private arms makers can set up shop in India and export to others - like car makers are doing then it would be different. For that the government has to approve foreign direct investment in small arms manufacture and make it attractive for the investor to put in money and a plant in collaboration with an Indian unit so that both can make a profit.
And lastly a fundamental rule in successful businesses. Every company does well as long as it stays close to its core competence where they have the manpower skills to keep the profits coming. here is no company in India other than OFB that has core competence in arms manufacture.
india really is backward in this area.
sir, the way things are, something needs to change, incompetency of OFB leads to Indian armed forces importing sub systems and even ammunition from foreign companies. That money is charged from our tax money...why should we be paying for misgivings of a non-reformist regime which wants to be dependent on foreign manufacturers even for basic ammunition.
I wonder how many members here have faith in OFB ?
Re: Small Arms Thread
Here are some small arms manufacturing stats
http://ww2.gazette.net/stories/062207/b ... 2362.shtml
OFB is that protected entity in India. Only it's government run.
http://ww2.gazette.net/stories/062207/b ... 2362.shtml
Only a handful make more than 50,000 guns a year. A production run of 500,000 would stress the world's largest manufacturers. A new private start up in India with no prior skills would have no chance of breaking into this business unless protected.Firearms Industry
The U.S. firearms industry includes about 200 companies with combined annual revenues of $2 billion.
The industry produces about 3 million guns per year.
The largest manufacturers are Remington Arms and Sturm Ruger.
Other companies that manufacture more than 50,000 weapons annually are Beretta U.S.A., Marlin Firearms, Mossberg, Smith & Wesson, U.S. Repeating Arms, Savage Sports Corp. and Hi-Point.
Although automation has increased, the industry is still fairly labor-intensive. Average annual revenue per worker is about $150,000.
Gun exports total about $300 million annually, with Canada and Japan the largest buyers.
OFB is that protected entity in India. Only it's government run.
Last edited by shiv on 28 Mar 2012 22:10, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Small Arms Thread
Sir if emotional arguments worked then things would not be the way they are.Sandeep_ghosh wrote:
sir, the way things are, something needs to change, incompetency of OFB leads to Indian armed forces importing sub systems and even ammunition from foreign companies. That money is charged from our tax money...why should we be paying for misgivings of a non-reformist regime which wants to be dependent on foreign manufacturers even for basic ammunition.
I wonder how many members here have faith in OFB ?
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Re: Small Arms Thread
Then maybe dis invest OFB, contract out tenders to public and private engineering design house for huge research grant for designing indigenous weapons platform that would arm the forces for next two decades.
There have been allegation of huge shortfalls in functional arms in paramilitary and military forces in the past, Poor quality ammunition and obsolescence. if we want our revenues not migrating to Europe or america strengthening their domestic arms industry we will need to take measures now. Pinaka sub-systems were developed by private institutions in India, similar model might empower some poor chaps luck tomorrow. the problem is some one in the government need to pay attention to this area.
There have been allegation of huge shortfalls in functional arms in paramilitary and military forces in the past, Poor quality ammunition and obsolescence. if we want our revenues not migrating to Europe or america strengthening their domestic arms industry we will need to take measures now. Pinaka sub-systems were developed by private institutions in India, similar model might empower some poor chaps luck tomorrow. the problem is some one in the government need to pay attention to this area.
Re: Small Arms Thread
"Ordnance Factories Board" produces everything from small arms, to uniforms, to parachutes, flares and mortar shells. It is an industrial behemoth. OFB needs to be split up IMO. No company in the world makes both uniforms and guns. Profits in one sector can be used to cover up losses in another and pretend that al iz vel. I can imagine how the government will transfer an officer experienced in making parachutes and ropes to a section making artillery based on seniority, date of birth and caste. That makes sense.Sandeep_ghosh wrote:Then maybe dis invest OFB, contract out tenders to public and private engineering design house for huge research grant for designing indigenous weapons platform that would arm the forces for next two decades.
There have been allegation of huge shortfalls in functional arms in paramilitary and military forces in the past, Poor quality ammunition and obsolescence. if we want our revenues not migrating to Europe or america strengthening their domestic arms industry we will need to take measures now. Pinaka sub-systems were developed by private institutions in India, similar model might empower some poor chaps luck tomorrow. the problem is some one in the government need to pay attention to this area.
Here is what "OFB" deals with
http://ofb.gov.in/index.php
Civilian Arms & AmmunitionWeapons
- 0.22" Revolver
0.32" Revolver (7.65 mm x 23)
0.32" Revolver (Long Barrel)
0.32" Pistol
0.22" Sporting Rifle
0.315" Sporting Rifle
30-06 Sporting Rifle
CARTRIDGE RIM FIRE .22" BALL
CARTG. SA .32" REVOLVER
CARTG. SA .315" AND 30 06 BALL
CARTRIDGE SA 12 BORE 70mm
CARTRIDGE SA 12 BORE 65mm SPECIALAmmunition, Explosives, Propellants & Chemicals
- Small Calibre
0.22 SPORTING RIFLE
0.22 REVOLVER
REVOLVER 0.32
PISTOL 0.32
0.315 SPORTING RIFLE
30.06 SPORTING RIFLE
12 BORE PUMP ACTION GUN
PISTOL AUTO 9 mm 1A
SUB MACHINE GUN CARBINE 9 mm 1A1
SUB MACHINE GUN CARBINE 9 mm 2A1
5.56 mm ASSAULT RIFLE (Fixed Butt)
5.56 mm INSAS RIFLE (Fixed Butt)
5.56 mm INSAS RIFLE (Foldable Butt)
5.56 MM EXCALIBUR RIFLE
5.56 mm KALANTAK MICRO ASSAULT RIFLE
AMOGH 5.56 X 30 mm CARBINE
LMG 5.56 mm INSAS (Fixed Butt)
LMG 5.56 mm INSAS (Foldable Butt)
Rifle 7.62 MM 1A1
GUN MACHINE 7.62 MM 1B
GUN MACHINE 7.62 mm (MAG) 2A1
GUN MACHINE 7.62 mm (MAG) 6A
ASSAULT RIFLE 7.62 MM
12.7 mm AA GUN
PROJECTOR PYROTECHNIC HAND, 13MM, 1A
Mortar Equipment
EQUIPMENT 51 MM MORTAR
EQUIPMENT 81 MM MORTAR
EQUIPMENT 120 MM MORTAR
EQUIPMENT 81mm LONG RANGE MORTAR
Medium Calibre
14.5 mm ARTILLERY TRAINER
14.5 MM SUB CALIBRE DEVICE
23 mm GHASHA AVIATION GUN
EQUIPMENT 40 mm L70 Gu AAE1
EQUIPMENT 40MM L-70 UPGRADED GUN
ANTI MATERIAL RIFLE VIDHWANSHAK
MULTI GRENADE LAUNCHER 40 MM
UNDER BARREL GRENADE LAUNCHER 40 MM
CRN 91 NAVAL GUN
AK 630 GUN
Large Calibre
84mm RCL GUN MK II
84 mm RCL GUN MK III
EQUIPMENT 106 mm RCL GUN
EQUIPMENT 105 mm IFG E1 ad 105 mm LFG E2
METAMORPHOSIS 155 mm GUN
KAVACH LAUNCHERMilitary Vehicles
- Small Calibre
CARTRIDGE SA 5.56 mm BALL INSAS
CARTRIDGE SA 5.56 mm TRACER INSAS
CARTRIDGE 5.56 MM BALL Mk N NATO
CARTRIDGE 5.56 MM BALL Mk M NATO
CARTRIDGE SA 7.62 mm BALL M80
CARTRIDGE SA 7.62 mm TRACER M62
CARTRIDGE SA 7.62 mm Blank L.A.
CARTRIDGE SA 7.62 mm MARKSMAN
CARTRIDGE SA 7.62 mm A7 MK-II
CARTRIDGE SA 9 mm BALL
CARTRIDGE SA 9 mm TRACER .840 CAP
CARTRIDGE SA .303 BALL MK 7Z
CARTRIDGE SA .50 SPOTTER TRACER
CARTRIDGE SA .380 BALL REVOLVER
CARTRIDGE RIM FIRE .22 BALL
CARTG. SA .32 REVOLVER
CARTG. SA .455 REVOLVER
CARTG. SA .315 IN AND 30 06 BALL
CARTG. SA 12 BORE ANTIRIOT
CARTG. SA 12 BORE 65 mm PLSATIC SPECIAL
CARTG. SA 12 BORE 65 mm PAPER SPECIAL
CARTG. SA 12 BORE 65 mm PLASTIC DELUXE
CARTG. SA 12 BORE 70 mm PLASTIC ASTRAM
CARTG. SA 12 BORE 70 mm PLASTIC MAGNA
CARTG. SA 12.7 mm API and APIT
Mortar Bombs
BOMB M.L. 2" MORTAR HE
BOMB ML SMOKE 2" MORTAR
BOMB ML MORTAR 2" ILLG
BOMB ML 2" MORTAR SIGNAL SINGLE STAR
MORTAR BOMB 51 MM HE
MORTAR BOMB 51 MM SMOKE 1A
MORTAR BOMB 51 MM ILLG 1A
MORTAR BOMB 51 MM ILLG RED GREEN
BOMB 81 mm MORTAR HE
BOMB 81 MM MORTAR SMOKE PWP
BOMB 81 MM MORTAR ILLUMINATING 2A
BOMB MORTAR 120 MM HE
BOMB MORTAR 120 MM SMOKE PWP
BOMB MORTAR 120 MM ILLG IA
81 MM MORTAR TRAINING DEVICE
120 MM MORTAR TRAINING DEVICE
Medium Calibre
CARTRIDGE 14.5 mm TRAINING AMMUNITION
CARTRIDGE 14.5 MM API
CARTRIDGE 14.5 MM APIT
CARTRIDGE 23 MM SCHILKA HE/IT
CARTRIDGE 23 MM SCHILKA AP/IT
CARTRIDGE 23 mm GHASHA HEI
CARTRIDGE 23 MM GHASHA AP I
30 MM BMP II AMMUNITION HE/T
30 MM BMP II AMMUNITION AP/T
30 MM BMP II AMMUNITION HE/I
CARTRIDGE. 30 MM NAVAL AMMN
CARTRIDGE 30 MM ADEN GUN PRACTICE MK2Z
CARTRIDGE 30 MM ADEN GUN HE MK 2Z
CARTRIDGE 30 MM GHASHA HE / INERT
CARTRIDGE QF 40 MM L-70 HE
CARTRIDGE QF 40 mm L/70 TPT
CARTRIDGE AA 40 mm L-70 PFFC
Large Calibre
84 mm TPT 65
84 mm HE 441B
84 mm HEAT 651
84 mm ILLUMINATING 545
CARTG. 105 mm IFG NORMAL CHARGE
CARTG. 105 mm IFG SUPER CHARGE
SHELL 105 mm IFG HE
SHELL 105 mm IFG HESH
SHELL 105 mm IFG ILLG
SHELL 105 mm IFG BE SMOKE
CARTG. QF 76.2 mm PRACTICE AND HE
CARTRIDGE 76.2 mm PFHE
CARTRIDGE 76/62 MM PRACTICE AA FLASH
CARTRIDGE QF 105 mm SH PRACTICE
CARTRIDGE 105 mm FSAPDS/T
CARTRIDGE 105 mm TANK HESH
CARTRIDGE QF 105 MM APDS/T
CARTRIDGE QF 105 MM DS/T PRACTICE
ROUND 106 mm RCL HEAT
SHELL 73 mm HE
SHELL 73mm HEAT
MAIN BATTLE TANK AMMUNITION 120 mm HESH
MAIN BATTLE TANK AMMUNITION 120 MM FSAPDS
SHELL 125 mm HE
SHELL 125 mm HEAT
CARTG. 125 mm FSAPDS
SHELL 130 mm HE
CARTRIDGE FVC RVC FOR 130 mm HE
155 mm SHELL HE 107
155 mm SHELL HE M 77B
155 mm SHELL HEER
155 mm SHELL SMOKE ER 24KM
SHELL 155 mm ILLUMINATING MIRA
SHELL 155 mm HE
SHELL 155 MM ILLUMINATING ERFB
SHELL 155 MM SCREENING SMOKE BE M2A2
155 mm HE ERFB BB
155 mm HE ERFB BT
CARTG. 125 MM FSAPDS T MK1
155 mm HE-ER BASE BLEED PROJECTILE
Grenades, Signalling Smoke, Other Stores
CARTG SIGNAL 16mm RED GREEN WHITE
CARTRIDGE SIGNAL 1" RED GREEN ILLG.
CARTG SIGNAL 1.5 GREEN RED YELLOW
GRENADE 36 M HAND AND TUBE LAUNCHING
81 MM SMOKE GRENADE 3D6 FOR T72
CANDLE SMOKE GROUND MK 3 L
TRAINING SMOKE GENERATOR
GENERATOR SMOKE NO.5
GRENADE HANDSMOKE RED GREEN
MARKER SMOKE WHITE
GENERATOR SMOKE ORANGE 3A
CSES GRENADE RED GREEN YELLOW
FLARE GROUND INDICATING NO. MK-1 YELLOW
PORT FIRE FRICTION
SIGNAL DISTRESS DAY AND NIGHT
CARTRIDGE SEAT EJECTION PK 3M 1
CARTRIDGE R-4 PYRO CUTTER
FLARE TRIP WIRE MK-1
SIGNAL FUZEE
SIGNAL FOG
HAND FLARE RED MK- II
PARA FLARE RED
BUOYANT SMOKE ORANGE
THUNDER FLASH MK - 4
MULTI MODE HAND GRENADE
Rocket Bombs
ROCKET 68 mm HE
ROCKET 68 mm HC
ROCKET 68 mm PRACTICE
BOMB HE 1000 lbs
BOMB PRACTICE 25 lbs No. 1 MK-1
BOMB 3 KG PRACTICE
BOMB 250 KG HSLD BOMB
BOMB 450 KG HSLD BOMB
AERIAL BOMB 100 -120 KG
AERIAL BOMB 100 -120 KG INERT
Fuzes
FUZE FZ 104
Fuze 213 MK5 (M-1) & (M-2) ad (M-3) & (M-4)
FUZE L 29 A2/A3
FUZE PERCUSSION DA NO.117
FUZE FOR ROCKET 122 mm HE
PROXIMITY FUZE 76.2
FUZE DA- 5A
FUZE 162 MK-8 AND FUZE 162 MK - 9
FUZE 161 MK 3 M-1
FUZE PD M 572 FOR 155 mm
Demolition
CHARGE DEMOLITION No. 2, 25 Ibs
CHARGE DEMOLITION No.11, 30 lbs
CHARGE DEMOLITION No. 14, 11 Ibs
CHARGE DEMOLITION NO.1 BEEHIVE
MINE ANTI-TANK 4D ND (BAR)
SWITCH NO. 4 PULL MK.1
SWITCH NO. 5 PRESSURE MK 1
SWITCH NO. 6 RELEASE MK 1
MAINDEKA ADVANCED LIMPET MINE
Explosives, Propellants and Chemicals
CHEMICALS
EXPLOSIVES
PROPELLANTS
LIQUID PROPELLANTSArmoured Vehicles
- Military Vehicles
STALLION 7.5 / 5 TON MK-III
LPTA 2.5 TON 713/32TC
WATER BOWSER 5KL
WATER BOWSER 2KL
FIELD AMBULANCE
KITCHEN CONTAINER
LIGHT RECOVERY VEHICLE
CARAVAN CONTAINER STALLION
SATA CONTAINER STALLION
BATTERY COMMAND POST STALLION
BATTERY COMMAND POST LPTA
MINE PROTECTED VEHICLE
MINE PROTECTED VEHICLE WITH RCWS
BULLET PROOFING OF AMBASSADOR
BULLET PROOFING OF TATA 407
BULLET PROOFING OF MARUTI GYPSY
BULLET PROOFING OF TATA SAFARI
BULLET PROOFING OF TOYOTA PRADOOptical Devices
- COMBAT IMPROVED AJEYA
ARJUN MAIN BATTLE TANK
TANK T 90 S
SARATH APC BMP 2K
CARRIER MORTAR TRACKED VEHICLE
ENGINE UTD 20
ENGINE V46 6
ENGINE V92S2
NBC RECCE VEHICLEParachutes
- Optical Devices
COMPASS PRISMATIC LIQUID MK-3A
SIGHT UNIT CASED 102 B
PASSIVE NIGHT VISION GOGGLES 102A
BINO NIGHT VISION PASSIVE CASED 101A
PASSIVE NIGHT VISION BINOCULAR LIGHT Wt
PASSIVE NIGHT VISION MONOCULAR
PASSIVE NIGHT SIGHT FOR RIFLE AND LMG
PASSIVE NIGHT SIGHT FOR 84 mm RCLII
PERISCOPE BATTERY COMMAND BINO 20 X 70
TELESCOPIC SIGHT FOR 5.56 mm RIFLE
TELESCOPE SIGHT FOR 5.56 mm LMG
TELESCOPIC SIGHT 6X FOR SNIPER RIFLE
TELESCOPIC SIGHT (M-1) FOR 84 mm RCL
PASSIVE NIGHT SIGHT FOR AK-47
OPTICAL SIGHT FOR AGS-30
TELESCOPIC SIGHT FOR 14.5 20 MM AMR
DRIVER'S PASSIVE NIGHT PERISCOPE FOR T-55
BINOCULAR 8 X 30
HR BINOCULAR
TELESCOPIC SIGHT 84 mm RCL III
SIGHT DIAL 104A WITH MOUNT
SIGHT 51 mm MORTAR 102A
RANGE FINDER CASED 13 E
COLLIMATOR INFINITY AIMING REFERENCE 102A
COLLIMATOR K-1
PERISCOPIC AIMING CIRCLE (PAB-2M)
SIGHT BORE MUZZLE AFV-125 MM CASED
LASER RANGE FINDER TPD-K1 FOR T-72
COMMANDER'S SIGHT PASSIVE FOR T-72 BMP-II
DRIVER'S SIGHT PASSIVE FOR TANK T-72
DRIVER'S SIGHT PASSIVE FOR BMP-II
DRIVER'S SIGHT PASSIVE FOR T-90 S
GUNNER'S SIGHT PASSIVE FOR T-72
GUNNER'S SIGHT PASSIVE FOR BMP-II
GUNNER'S SIGHT IG46 FOR T-90 S
COMMANDER'S SIGHT TKN -4S FOR T-90 S
THERMAL SIGHT TI -ESSA FOR T-90 S
COMMANDER'S THERMAL SIGHT TI FOR T72
ANTI AIRCRAFT SIGHT IP3 3 FOR BMP-II
MISSILE SIGHT 9sh 119M1 FOR BMP-II
LASER AIMING AID INSA LAKSHYA FOR RIFLE
RED DOT SIGHTSupport Equipment
- Parachutes
BRAKE PARACHUTE FOR MiG-21
BRAKE PARACHUTE FOR MiG-23
BRAKE PARACHUTE FOR MiG-25
BRAKE PARACHUTE MiG-29
BRAKE PARACHUTE FOR MIRAGE-2000
BRAKE PARACHUTE FOR JAGUAR
BRAKE PARACHUTE FOR SU-30 A/C
PARACHUTE PARATROOP TYPE PTR-M
PARACHUTE PARATROOP TYPE PTR-R
PARACHUTE TACTICAL ASSAULT TYPE PTA-M
PARACHUTE TACTICAL ASSAULT TYPE PTA-R
PARASAIL
RAM AIR 9 CELL FREE FALL PARACHUTE
PARACHUTE SYSTEM FOR MORTAR BOMB 81 MM ILLUMINATING AND OTHER AMMUNITION
PILOT PARACHUTE SEAT MK-10
HIGH ALTITUDE PARACHUTE
PILOT PARACHUTE BMK-41
HEAVY DROP SYSTEM P-7
CARGO AERIAL DELIVERY PARACHUTE 8.5 MTroop Comfort & General Stores
- Support Equipment
INFLATABLE BOAT PRASHANT 465 MK - 2
BOAT RECCE 3 MEN - 2 A
FLOAT FOR KM BRIDGE
BRIDGE ASSAULT FLOATING (KRUPPMAN)
MANUALLY LAUNCHED ASSAULT BRIDGE MLAB MLC-60
CABLES
FIBRE OPTIC CABLE
COAXIAL CABLEMaterial, Components & SPMs
- Troop Comfort and General Stores
TENT ARCTIC MEDIUM MK 2
TENT ARCTIC LARGE MK-2
TENT 80 KG MK-3
TENT 20 KG INNER AND OUTER
TENT PVT MK3
TENT STORE
TENT EXTENDABLE FRAME SUPPORTED 4M
Tent Arctic Small Mk 2
TANK FABRIC COLLAPSIBLE MK-1
COVER WATER PROOF
STEEL JERRICANS CAPACITY 20 LITRES
HEATER SPACE (COAL/OIL BURNING)
CHAGUL UNIVERSAL MK-II
BOOT ANKLE DIRECT VULCANISED SOLE
HIGH ANKLE BOOT DVS
BOOT ANTIMINE MK-1
DUAL DENSITY RUBBER COMBAT BOOT
HIGH ANKLE BOOT FOR PARATROOPERS
SUIT TERRY WOOL (JACKET & TROUSERS)
OVERALL COMBINATION DISRUPTIVE
OVERALL COMBINATION OG
COAT COMBAT DISRUPTIVE
JACKET & TROUSER COMBAT DISRUPTIVE
OVERALL COMBINATION
OVERALL FLYING MK-II
OVERALL WINTER
COAT AND TROUSERS PARKA
COAT FEATHER & PANT FEATHER
JERSEY WOOLLEN OG V-NECK
SHIRT ANGOLA DRAB & TROUSER SERGE
GENTS AND LADIES JACKET
GLOVES LEATHER WHITE LINED
SLEEPING BAG MK-4
LIGHT WEIGHT WEB EQUIPMENT
ICK SYNTHETIC BELT WAIST OG
INFANTRY COMBAT KIT HAVERSACK
INFANTRY COMBAT KIT PACK WITH FRAME
INFANTRY COMBAT KIT POUCHES AMMUNITION
Web Equipment G.I. Pattern
JACKET ECC & TROUSER ECC
COAT E.C.C
SUIT YETI
BULLET PROOF JACKET
CAPES WATER PROOF KHAKI WITH HOOD
MULTIPLE ELEMENT NET ASSEMBLY
VEST AND JERSEY WOOLLEN OG
BLANKET
SOCKS WOOLLEN LYCRA
NBC SUIT PERMEABLE
NBC CASUALITY BAG FULL
NBC CASUALITY BAG HALF
NBC Facelet
NBC Haversack
TROUSER AND SHIRT POLYESTER AND VISCOSE OG
GAITERS GLACIER
FUEL EFFICIENT AYUDH BUKHARI
BAG KIT DISRUPTIVE WATERPROOF WITH STROLER
- Material Components and SPMs
MATERIAL (NON FERROUS & HEAVY ALLOYS)
MATERIAL (FERROUS)
COMPONENTS (NON FERROUS & HEAVY ALLOYS)
COMPONENTS (FERROUS)
CASE GAUGING MACHINE
CASE GAUGING AND SORTING MACHINE
CARTG GAUGING WEIGHING SORTING MACHINE
CUP GAUGING AND SORTING MACHINE
MAGAZINE LOADING MACHINE
BULLET GAUGING WEIGHING SORTING MACHINE
CASE LOADING ASSEMBLING GAUGING WEIGHING MACHINE
WINDING MACHINE
Re: Small Arms Thread
OFB News letter
We congratulate Shri Kishan Kumar on his promotion to General Manager (Assault Rifles). Shri Kumar has 27 years experience in OFB and is a specialist in the manufacture of Ankle Length Winter Boots, a section that he headed for 15 years. He was earlier Assistant Manager of the Haversacks and Backpacks Division
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Re: Small Arms Thread
+1 funny and sad at the same time.shiv wrote:OFB News letterWe congratulate Shri Kishan Kumar on his promotion to General Manager (Assault Rifles). Shri Kumar has 27 years experience in OFB and is a specialist in the manufacture of Ankle Length Winter Boots, a section that he headed for 15 years. He was earlier Assistant Manager of the Haversacks and Backpacks Division
Re: Small Arms Thread
A question for Armen T and other gurus. I was reading about silencers and Wikipedia tells me that the 2 significant sources of noise from a firearm are, muzzle blast of gas propellant and sonic signature of the bullet. Now the question is, if somebody is firing blank cartridges, will the latter noise be eliminated? If so, then is the sound of a gun firing blanks and a gun firing live ammunition easily distinguishable?
Re: Small Arms Thread
^^^
At the shooter's end, he and people around him generally can't hear the crack noise of the rifle bullet breaking the sound barrier, because it is usually overshadowed by the sound of the exploding propellant. However, someone who is further downrange (say > 300 meters away) and close to the path of the bullet can hear the crack of the bullet as it passes by, ahead of the sound of the exploding propellant (which sounds like a dull thump by the time it reaches the observer at such distances).
To hear what this sounds like, check out this video:
You'll clearly hear the sharp crack of a bullet, followed by the dull thump of the exploding propellant right after, since the observer is "far enough" from the shooter and close to the bullet path. Note that the loud bullet sonic boom noise does dissipate relatively quickly because the mass of the bullet is relatively low. Therefore, if the observer doesn't hear the sharp crack, it may be because he wasn't close enough to the bullet path. So the observer can't really guess if it was a blank or a live round.
Incidentally, even if the bullet is travelling subsonic, there is still some noise generated by the wind rushing past the bullet. Again, if the observer is standing downrange and is fairly close to the bullet path, they can hear the bullet whistling past. But this sound is also mixed with the sound of the gunshot, as the bullet is travelling subsonic. You can hear a whizzing noise in this next video as the bullet passes overhead:
Note the difference in sound signature when a subsonic bullet is fired (sounds like a blaster from star wars) vs. the sound signature of a supersonic bullet (sharp crack, followed by a dull thump). In the second vid though, the observer is a lot closer to the shooter, so the two sounds produced by a supersonic bullet are not as distinguishable as in the first vid.
At the shooter's end, he and people around him generally can't hear the crack noise of the rifle bullet breaking the sound barrier, because it is usually overshadowed by the sound of the exploding propellant. However, someone who is further downrange (say > 300 meters away) and close to the path of the bullet can hear the crack of the bullet as it passes by, ahead of the sound of the exploding propellant (which sounds like a dull thump by the time it reaches the observer at such distances).
To hear what this sounds like, check out this video:
You'll clearly hear the sharp crack of a bullet, followed by the dull thump of the exploding propellant right after, since the observer is "far enough" from the shooter and close to the bullet path. Note that the loud bullet sonic boom noise does dissipate relatively quickly because the mass of the bullet is relatively low. Therefore, if the observer doesn't hear the sharp crack, it may be because he wasn't close enough to the bullet path. So the observer can't really guess if it was a blank or a live round.
Incidentally, even if the bullet is travelling subsonic, there is still some noise generated by the wind rushing past the bullet. Again, if the observer is standing downrange and is fairly close to the bullet path, they can hear the bullet whistling past. But this sound is also mixed with the sound of the gunshot, as the bullet is travelling subsonic. You can hear a whizzing noise in this next video as the bullet passes overhead:
Note the difference in sound signature when a subsonic bullet is fired (sounds like a blaster from star wars) vs. the sound signature of a supersonic bullet (sharp crack, followed by a dull thump). In the second vid though, the observer is a lot closer to the shooter, so the two sounds produced by a supersonic bullet are not as distinguishable as in the first vid.
Re: Small Arms Thread
Actually sir, some of the core skills of small arms manufacture are also present in other industries. For instance, quite a few firearms manufacturers were also bicycle manufacturers because they were using the same technologies to produce cycle tubes as well as rifle barrels! Similarly, bike components and firearm components both involve similar forging techniques. Therefore, several firearm manufacturers (e.g. BSA, Iver Johnson, Remington, Enfield, Steyr, Mossberg etc.) used to manufacture both firearms and bicycles. There's a reason why the BSA logo on their bicycles consists of 3 standing rifles, reflecting their heritage as a firearms manufacturer as well. Another big source of firearm components were sewing machine manufacturers, who also used similar technologies to manufacture parts for both industries. During World War II, automobile manufacturers in the US also made firearms (e.g. A General Motors plant (their Guide Lamp division) that made headlights also made M-3 submachine guns)shiv wrote: And lastly a fundamental rule in successful businesses. Every company does well as long as it stays close to its core competence where they have the manpower skills to keep the profits coming. here is no company in India other than OFB that has core competence in arms manufacture.
india really is backward in this area.
Lest someone say that all this happened in the 19th century, it is possible to give an example of a non-firearm manufacturer who branched into making firearms as late as in the 1980s. The Glock company had no experience in firearms, but were manufacturers of small metal and polymer plastic products (e.g. curtain rods, knives, belt buckles, plastic spades, plastic silverware organizers, door hinges, window fittings etc.) In fact, the reason Glock got into the handgun business was because their CEO, Gaston Glock, was actually signing a contract to supply plastic entrenching spades to the Austrian army and overheard that they were also putting out a contract for a new handgun. Because of lack of firearms design experience, Glock outsourced the design of their first pistol model to a bunch of expert handgun designers, but undertook to manufacture the pistols themselves, as they had experience in mass production of metal and polymer plastic components. Incidentally, even though the company is now well known as a firearms manufacturer, it still makes plastic entrenching tools, knives etc. Bear in mind that the Austrian army is not very big and so sales to them alone wouldn't be that much, but Gaston Glock took the project because he was thinking of also exporting his pistol to other countries as well (something that the Indian government doesn't allow private manufacturers to do unfortunately). Note that this unknown Austrian manufacturer exported their product to the largest firearms market -- the US --, which already has many well established home-grown manufacturers and they managed to corner the market, due to the quality of their products.
There are private manufacturers in India who are already set up to manufacture metal and plastic components for other industries and can do firearms manufacturing as a side business, if they are given permission by the government to do so and also allowed to also export their products so that they can make a profit. Given a good design, they are more than capable of manufacturing to the designed specifications without endangering their core business. Of course, there is the question of providing security for the plant to make sure that all firearms produced are properly accounted for, but that is a separate issue.
Re: Small Arms Thread
ID the weapon please ... Looks like a G36 ... but can't explain the Indian soldier standing behind from whom the gun seems to be taken.
Re: Small Arms Thread
Can't id the weapon but I can id the soldier who is a model "Future Infantry Soldier" who used to be a mannequin but is nowadays a real human in exhibitions.indranilroy wrote:ID the weapon please ... Looks like a G36 ... but can't explain the Indian soldier standing behind from whom the gun seems to be taken.
Re: Small Arms Thread
It's the G36K IDZ.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010 ... -g36k-idz/
And I don't think the soldier is staring at the gun.Along with the previous G36K accessories it also features ...
Low profile upper picatinny rail with integrated BUIS.
XM8 style enlarged magazine release with drop-free capability.
XM8 style bolt release inside the trigger guard.
Flash hider for use with B&T suppressors.
New stock that is collapsible, foldable and has an adjustable cheek riser.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010 ... -g36k-idz/
Re: Small Arms Thread
Hi Tejas the link u've posted shows the rifle with a much shorter barrel,is it a Para version of the original?please explain.
Re: Small Arms Thread
Thats a commando version. Here's something more similar to what the lady is holding. I believe these are prototypes not in widespread use yet.
Re: Small Arms Thread
Exactly,thought so given the finish of the product.
Re: Small Arms Thread
Whats Ammo does the G36 fire, it seems to look anther assault rifle. What are its advantages over say Insas, AK-47 and is it in service with IA?
Re: Small Arms Thread
1. G36 fires 5.56x45 mm. NATO round (same caliber cartridge as INSAS)Aditya_V wrote:Whats Ammo does the G36 fire, it seems to look anther assault rifle. What are its advantages over say Insas, AK-47 and is it in service with IA?
2. Higher capacity magazine (30 or 100 round mags) than INSAS, higher rate of fire than both INSAS and AK, free floating barrel for better accuracy, lighter than both INSAS and AK-47, comes in carbine, rifle and LMG variants, has selectable fire like AK (semi-auto as well as full-auto modes) etc. Note that all this comes at a price -- a G36 is also more expensive than INSAS or AK-47.
3. IA is not listed as a user per Wikipedia, but it doesn't mean that they aren't considering it, at least for certain units (I base this on the fact that the "Future Infantry Soldier" is holding one )
Re: Small Arms Thread
Wow, I remember thinking the G36 was the most gorgeous assault rifle I had ever seen, if IA gets it
Re: Small Arms Thread
You guys seem to be reading to much into that pic. Its most probably just a marketing show by H&K at their stall in defence expo where they got hold of an Indian, clothed him in IA camo and geared him up with French equipment.
Re: Small Arms Thread
Whats the sniper gun?
I initially thought it to be Insas LMG with folded stock.
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Re: Small Arms Thread
Hello,
I would like to ask the opinion of the gun aficionados on BR. While I personally oppose guns [for private use]; I cannot help but appreciate how the gun industry in the US, Russia etc have a wide range of personal weapon systems. While there is a large requirement of these weapons in the army, they alone cannot sustain the industry in the long run.
That said, if we can get the private manufacturers in the US and other countries to set up base in India to produce these weapons for the Army. Is that not enough? In the war time, these foundries can produce whatever requirements we have. Unlike a Fight aircraft or Tank [which takes long periods of time to build and are more likely to be affected by sanctions] are guns vulnerable to technology denials, etc?? Can't India force manufacturers of foreign weapons to continue building them for us? [Incase they set up shop]
I would like to ask the opinion of the gun aficionados on BR. While I personally oppose guns [for private use]; I cannot help but appreciate how the gun industry in the US, Russia etc have a wide range of personal weapon systems. While there is a large requirement of these weapons in the army, they alone cannot sustain the industry in the long run.
That said, if we can get the private manufacturers in the US and other countries to set up base in India to produce these weapons for the Army. Is that not enough? In the war time, these foundries can produce whatever requirements we have. Unlike a Fight aircraft or Tank [which takes long periods of time to build and are more likely to be affected by sanctions] are guns vulnerable to technology denials, etc?? Can't India force manufacturers of foreign weapons to continue building them for us? [Incase they set up shop]
Re: Small Arms Thread
Gaur boss, G36 is German.
Re: Small Arms Thread
Re: Small Arms Thread
koti, looks like galil sniper.
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Re: Small Arms Thread
please check the details show in other pics as muzzle velocity is ref. as Russian standardsRahul M wrote:koti, looks like galil sniper.
I doubt it is Galil or leader 50
Re: Small Arms Thread
Rahulji, Galil is not bullpup.
It does not look like Leander either.
Pic of leander from Misraji's link:
It does not look like Leander either.
Pic of leander from Misraji's link:
Re: Small Arms Thread
Since I have undeniable upper hand in such issues* I think it is a "Leader LSR 50"
http://www.defensereview.com/leader-50- ... -near-you/
*The book on the table says so
http://www.defensereview.com/leader-50- ... -near-you/
*The book on the table says so
Re: Small Arms Thread
If you look at the pic posted by sarabpal ji is very different from the Leader 50. Biggest clue is angled mag in the former but straight mag in the latter.
Re: Small Arms Thread
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_Short
How is this round. Used it in the range and missed 80% of the target
How is this round. Used it in the range and missed 80% of the target
Re: Small Arms Thread
Its an inherently accurate round. You should aim at the target!!!
Re: Small Arms Thread
I have a small hand movement when firing the shot. Weaver Stance
Shot should be fired when you have inhaled and pause your breathing, this chest movement adds stability to your hold.
Shot should be fired when you have inhaled and pause your breathing, this chest movement adds stability to your hold.