Indian Army : News and Discussion

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 01 Apr 2012 21:12

after all he was a babu at one point -

to think this genius was india's NSA at one point.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 01 Apr 2012 21:28

chackojoseph wrote:Yes right. I practically experienced FIR few months back. Here is how it goes.

A person has to file FIR with police for getting them act on a case
The police does its inquiry, prepares a charge sheet and then depending upon it case may forward it to a magistrate.
The person who filed FIR (and if the counter FIR is filed), then he (and the counter FIR registrant) hire a lawyer and the lawyer amends or expands FIR. I am sure you must have read in news paper that the Police registered FIR in some other section and then they were forced to change it by the complainants lawyer.
The concerned parties then slug it out in the court.

So a FIR is not final, the charge sheet is.

Same in 2G. A Raja was kept in jail based on FIR, then a charge sheet was made and then released. Same with kalamadi etc.

I got to know about it from a EC official who was explaining the it to me during an interaction Make Election bribery a cognizable offence under the IPC : EC . although the article is for asking for non-cognisable to cognisable, if you notice, a cognisable offense helps them to reach magistrate faster and take action faster. However, making it a cognisable offense does not establish people guilty.

In this case too:

1) CBI filed an FIR with cognisable tag.
2) Then did the questioning / inquiry. But, have not filed chargesheet and taken him to the magistrate. They might or might not arrest him, but have made sure that he does not get out. nest step is charge sheet, which also does not establish guilt. Only the outcome of the case, the evidence etc will establish the out come and the acquittal/punishment will be handed over. If a party is not happy, then goes to Hc or SC depending.

So FIR was filed or not?

Chargesheet in any case only comes after FIR, if at all.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 01 Apr 2012 22:26

chaanakya wrote:So FIR was filed or not?

Chargesheet in any case only comes after FIR, if at all.

Army Chief bribery claim: CBI not convinced with details given by Gen VK Singh

No case has been registered yet on the Army Chief's allegations.

So, best answer is no. Earlier replying to nelson, I had said they did and hence the CBI raid and that is an error. That was because CBI has not specified. However, when I read the raids release by CBI, it said that some 13 crore loss. It means that CBI raids are for the other case mentioned (2009 Azad complaint).

See, the police has a function to find find out if the case is genuine or not in order to file a FIR and what IPC to use. The same is happening with VKS case. so, unless VKS gives what CBI needs to do the mentioned procedure.

Shouting in forums/newspapers etc will not help. If the case is improperly filed by CBI, the opponent can make use of it to get back at VKS.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 01 Apr 2012 22:40

Of course, there is no FIR as yet on the reference made by MOD AKA. Preliminary investigation is on and after that only CBI would register the case. At least that is what I understand .

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 01 Apr 2012 22:51

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 3#p1260933

chaanakya wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:
Without FIR, there is no case.
Actually, there is no need for FIR as is being made out by many stalwarts on TV and elsewhere. If VKS reported the matter, what was needed was a discrete preliminary inquiry into whole affair and findout the criminality and culpability of actors involved. A direction to CBI to do preliminary investigation( done umpteen times ) before case reaches FIR stage. CBI itself can register FIR based on its investigation and prosecute the case.

So while, VKS did right, it is patently wrong to suggest that he should have filed FIR with one SHO of Police Station. RM should have ordered CBI to do preliminary investigation instead of clutching his head. CBI would have collected all necessary paperworks.

This still stands.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Apr 2012 22:55

Brajesh Mishra should have been dismissed for giving wrong advice to ABV after the 1998 tests to declare the moratorium before the G-8 meeting. India declared moratorium and yet got sanctioned! BM did not cooridnate all the stakeholders of the deterrent:political, scientific, military and the foreign service. He relied only on one set of stake holders. His successors had to coordinate the others and get India out of the sanctions bag.

It was the premature moratorium that led to Kargil fiasco for it gave the enemies hope that India would be wanting. This guy should have been grilled by KRC. Yet he gives interviews and behaves as eminence grise!

The other NSAs Dixit, MKN, SSM had to clean his mess. And now he is talking. Should shut up and contemplate his own role in the mess that India was in the first decade of the 21st century.

anmol · Post by **anmol** » 01 Apr 2012 23:31

chackojoseph wrote:anmol,

You are rich my friend. You agreement with Sumair is your personal impression.

But, you state the fact wrong

Did he say/do anything after being told about the bribe.. other than to request Army chief himself(who was the witness and accuser) to himself investigate whether Army Chief is telling the truth or not..
Link

"My timings of raising bribery issue have been questioned," he said, clarifying that this was because the bribery issue has revived now because the person in question re-surfaced in March. He said that institutional corrective steps were taken earlier after his talks with AK Antony.

What facts ? Please read your own post again.. it was about AKA and not VKS. I asked what exactly AKA did.. and you are giving me "facts" about all that VKS did.. Also, AKA himself claimed that VKS didn't pursue the matter.. whereas the unrelated facts that you have presented show that VKS either did do.. or is claiming to have taken some action.

So.. all in all. You have failed to show what exactly AKA did after being told about the bribe other than making foolish suggestion to VKS to investigate his own claims.

Yet, you claim that :-

chackojoseph wrote:People say he has been "keeping Quite" about corruption and there by supporting Congress corruption. This I differ.

[/quote]

chackojoseph wrote:No matter how much you attack my personal credibility, my journalistic credibility, my faith credibility etc. AK Antony, MM Palam Raju, VKS, former IAF Chief Major Fali and the naval chiefs are on my A list.

At the same time, I reserve the right to change my opinion, doubt them etc. it is not a blank cheque. Trust but verify.

Where in my post did I bring up your religion ? Nor did Sumair posted anything about your religion. He claimed(and I agree) that after reading all the pages in this thread, you sound like an apologist for congress party.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 02 Apr 2012 00:20

In this debate about TATRA trucks, let us look at some basic numbers:

1. The CAG report says that in 2009 BEML was selling one of the TATRA truck types to the IA at ~INR 85L. The report also says it was making a profit of ~30% in each vehicle - which is around INR 25.5L. Which means that the cost to BEML was ~INR 60L.

2. Now, we know that BEML get TATRA from Europe in CKD and assembles the same in India. The INR 60L cost to BEML would include the labor cost. So, assuming that BEML does "value addition" of INR 5L on each truck, the cost to BEML (actually India) should be around INR 55L.

3. This INR 55L is the price at which TATRA Sipox sells to India and would include the transportation cost and all other sundry expenses.

4. Now, it has been suggested that TATRA Czech is made to sell the trucks to TATRA Sipox at near cost or even below cost. And the profit is made by TATRA Sipox. Now, how much profit per vehicle would TATRA Sipox be making? 15%?20%?25%?30%?

5. In each of the above cases, the cost price of TATRA trucks is likely to be INR 47/44/41/39 L respectively. So, the IA ends up paying 70% to 85% more than what it should had it sourced the vehicles from Czech TATRA.

6. We still don't know whether the INR 85L price is for 6x6 or 8x8 TATRA trucks.

BTW, here is the break up of the TATRA order placed in 2010 (778 vehicles in all):

- 498 Nos. of 8x8 - these are used as TT in the IA

- 278 Nos. of 6x6 (with Winch) - these are GS vehicles with payload capacity of 8K kgs and trailer capacity of 65K kgs (public roads) and 16K kgs on other terrains.

- 12 Nos. of 6x6 (without Winch)

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 02 Apr 2012 00:57

ramana wrote:Brajesh Mishra should have been dismissed for giving wrong advice to ABV after the 1998 tests to declare the moratorium before the G-8 meeting. India declared moratorium and yet got sanctioned! BM did not cooridnate all the stakeholders of the deterrent:political, scientific, military and the foreign service. He relied only on one set of stake holders. His successors had to coordinate the others and get India out of the sanctions bag.

It was the premature moratorium that led to Kargil fiasco for it gave the enemies hope that India would be wanting. This guy should have been grilled by KRC. Yet he gives interviews and behaves as eminence grise!

The other NSAs Dixit, MKN, SSM had to clean his mess. And now he is talking. Should shut up and contemplate his own role in the mess that India was in the first decade of the 21st century.

100% agree sir. Shadow network of puppeteers control highly influential persons in both parties. Singh and others who bring their dealings into the light is like a needle through their hearts. When the media, bureaucrats, journalists including that buffoon LM employee shukla, ex-generals, etc constantly go on a rampage against someone, it reminds me of the campaign against modi. Nitpicking here and there, contradicting facts and refusing to open their hearts and minds to the whole picture. But hey, we all got a mortgage to pay right? Good luck to the chief and all those whistle blowers who aren't already turning up dead under mysterious circumstances.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 02 Apr 2012 01:03

In one of the news reports, it was mentioned that these trucks are available in Europe for around 40L (I guess this is directly from the OEM, not sure if its for the 8*8 or 6*6?). The margin for the middle men and I consider BEML to be nothing but a middle organization stuffed with bureaucrats, who need to be fired tomorrow is more than 100%. I think, the price for 8*8 is around 110L, the 85L seems to be for the 6*6.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 02 Apr 2012 01:13

[quote="chackojoseph"][url=http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... ms?curpg=1]CJ: You should cross check and run all this numbers and see for example the revenue of the Slovakian/Czech companies against the reported claims or more money with other countries, etc.

Even if there is nothing there, the Indian tax payer has paid for his millions, let us make him accountable.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 02 Apr 2012 01:16

>> Brajesh Mishra should have been dismissed for giving wrong advice to ABV after the 1998 tests to declare the moratorium before the G-8 meeting.

And during Op. Parakram, according to Condi Rice, he was whining about the "war lobby" in India.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 02 Apr 2012 01:42

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/the-bi ... topstories

NDTV discussion on the procurement

this really should be on this thread

shows all the characters

and one is all drama and no brains

shows the spread

the army guys

the air force guys

sigh

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 02 Apr 2012 02:52

What is more empty than vacuum : Renuka Chowdary's head.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 02 Apr 2012 03:24

One can only imagine how things must be going if the former Air chief say - oh things are hunky dory

we have no problems at all

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 02 Apr 2012 04:37

Pranav wrote:Brajesh Mishra has lost his mental balance. See his foul-mouthed interview to Karan Thapar -

General VK Singh is the worst Army Chief so far: Brajesh Mishra - http://ibnlive.in.com/news/general-sing ... 782-3.html

Between BM and Gen VK Singh, the odds are, it is BM that has lost his mental balance. How come he is the 'worst' Army Chief, has he lost a war? I would respect Karan Thapar when he advocates the release of Henderson Brooks-Bhagat Report than interviewing Brijesh Mishra.

The Govt itself has created this problem by delegitimising middlemen, as if they don't exist.

Politicians have been in the news for the last ..(how many) years, that didn't drive them into the ground!? Gen K sundarji was made to appear in Parliament for defending the Bofors gun, by the ancestors of these very politicians that NOW find it shameful that the Army has been in the news for the last 6 months!!

Gen V K Singh has every right to stand for election but I doubt he will. He has set the agenda for CMA for the coming years - Cleanup. GOI cannot escape that.

At a minimum, people of India should be thankful that Gen VK Singh has brought out the issue of middlemen out in the open, for whom the General has ultimately spoken.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 02 Apr 2012 04:39

What one finds so remarkable in the Tatra case is the "all-wheel-drive" alacrity with which the Def.Min./MOD/GOI have initiated action against Tatra's head after Gen.VKS's last ditch complaint! He is being questioned by the CBI,passport impounded,red alerts at airports,etc.,etc.,as if he was the equivalent of Carlos the Jackal!

Though we're now told that (St) Anthony was actively pursuing the scam for 3 long years,he seemed to have been operating at a speed of 60mm per year until the scam surfaced into the public domain.Compare this with the action on the himalayan mountain of other scams ,CWG for example where Suresh Kalmadi was treated for years with butter-fingers by the PM,who sacked two sports ministers to accomodate Kalmadi's looting,and a picture emerges.Until the sh*t hits the fan protect the scamsters merely give the impression of movement on the issue.

Enter the pussycat...Brajesh Mishra.It is remarkable how this worthy gent ever became NSA,that too to ABV.He seems to have been a trojan horse within the NDA govt.,which squandered the huge success of P-2,which really carved out for India a front row seat,reserved for the N-powers only, in the global pecking order.In retrospect his lunatic advice forced ABV to take a back seat after first making it to the front row ! One must now ask a legitimate Q,which "band of brothers" does BM represent? Clearly it is not the nation.This must be investigated forcefully.Outlandish statements that Gen.VKS is India's "worst chief" ever,ring terribly hollow.Sure Gen.Singh has made his mistakes in this sordid affair,but these have been errors of judgement,thus far no one but the Tatra chief has accused him of alleged corruption,favouring Ural trucks. Surely at the very least his reputation is way above the well-known uniformed top brass scamsters behind the defence land scams,Adarsh,etc.? The worst accusations that have been hurled at him have been that he has been too busy with his personal issue of the DOB and did not see to equipping the IA with its critical needs,which in fact have been pending throughout the terms of UPA 1&2 long before Gen.VKS became chief!

Here the fault must squarely lie with (St.) Anthony and his boss,our snake oil mendicant ,our plasticene puppet PM,who has swayed with the wind,bent over backwards,crawled when merely asked to bend ,with both ears open waiting for his commands from across the waters before gingerly dipping his toe into the water.The PMO/MOD appear to have been totally cornered by the firang arms lobby ,where any sore loser in a deal could whip up an accusation of corruption and thus delay and damage our most urgently needed acquisitions.These have also cleverly seen to it that the armed forces capability has been kept as low as possible under the circumstances.

If there is one individual who should get his marching orders it is not Gen.VKS but (St.) Anthony.Like his immediate boss,the PM,being an honest chowkidar while the stable is looted is clear dereliction of duty.Here he has been doubly at fault,for doing B-all about the scams right under his nose,but more for denying the armed forces,esp. the IA its most critical needs with which to defend the nation by his lethargy. indecision and inaction.I do not understand why Gen.VKS of all people is now defending him (and thus supporting his clear inaction),but then he also has a track record of sometimes being accomodating (on the DOB) to his superiors .Is some compromise being worked out to save (St) Anthony's reputation after he tripped over his dhoti and exposed all his "shockings"?

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 02 Apr 2012 05:04

^^^ Seems BM hangs around in Europe a lot - for fun stuff.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 02 Apr 2012 05:48

In the Czech and Slovak states?

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 02 Apr 2012 06:21

ramana wrote:Brajesh Mishra should have been dismissed for giving wrong advice to ABV after the 1998 tests to declare the moratorium before the G-8 meeting. India declared moratorium and yet got sanctioned! BM did not cooridnate all the stakeholders of the deterrent:political, scientific, military and the foreign service. He relied only on one set of stake holders. His successors had to coordinate the others and get India out of the sanctions bag.

It was the premature moratorium that led to Kargil fiasco for it gave the enemies hope that India would be wanting. This guy should have been grilled by KRC. Yet he gives interviews and behaves as eminence grise!

The other NSAs Dixit, MKN, SSM had to clean his mess. And now he is talking. Should shut up and contemplate his own role in the mess that India was in the first decade of the 21st century.

IIRC, during the Kandahar hijack also, BM played a (non-)role in not ordering action when the plane was in Amritsar.

During the Musharraf visit, he prepared the drafts of agreement in line with what Musharraf wanted, without consulting the Foreign Minister Jaswant Singh, who had to create a scene in front of the PM to be able to see the draft. On seeing the draft, Advani put his foot down and asked for amendments in key clauses that greatly disappointed Musharraf upsetting his game plan.

BM had a strange hold on ABV, who made him his Principal Secretary as well as the first NSA of India. The RSS types wanted BM to be removed or at least give up one of the posts, but ABV threatened to resign, and they had to back off.

BM's son-in-law is Italian.

There are complex linkages between the politicians in all parties, the bureaucrats, and the foreign powers. We, the public, shall never know the full picture of who is connected to or controlled by whom.

Rahul Mehta had correctly called it the nbjprie nexus that controls India.

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 02 Apr 2012 06:24

Wise words from Admiral Vishnu Bhagvat at the end of the debate on the role of the Arms lobby and 'middle men' .The key objection being foreign intel agencies piggy ride on middle men and arms lobby and it is the easiest way to get access to key serving officers both military and civilian.

http://www.timesnow.tv/Debate-Army-Chie ... 399194.cms

Sunilchurchill · Post by **Sunilchurchill** » 02 Apr 2012 06:27

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... eronly.gif

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vijayant_Thapar

Before this discussion digresses further into muck and slime…please take a moment to read the last letter from a brave solider (Capt. Vijayant Thapar) who gave up his life for the land that is so dear to us.

Before passing any comments.. please search your soul and ask one question: Is it not high time the decision makers ( babus, politicians) get off their inefficiencies and start doing something for the land we love so dear. In fact, should we not demand an accountability for why they lack the courage to make a decision ( no matter how good or bad). If a 22 year old, can give up his life for the land we love without hesitation, why cannot the men and women who are deemed as decision makers make the decisions that are needed.

Let us not forget that India is the only country in the world that is facing hot border on West and East. Yet this is our reality
1) Finance Ministry has put on backburner the raising of a Mountain Division.
2) The MOD off course is not concerned with providing the basic needs of the solider
( Bullet Proof Jackets, snow boots, etc- off course we have all read other
critical items lacking in the leaked letters).
3) The Young Air force pilots lack trainers to train - off course the babus will not
allow for what has been selected by the IAF.
4) Saichen is serviced by helicopters that are of the 60’s vintage – Cheetak, Cheetah.
5) To date no memorial is established for our dead heros. – Don’t they deserve that much of respect from us 1.3 billion Indians, who sleep in peace knowing that these brave soldiers gave up their today for our tomorrow – yet we wont respect their sacrifice.

In any democracy, freedom & freedom of speech is a god given right, what allows this freedom to flourish is the fact, when you have strong armed forces ready to defend this birth given right, our democracy will grow further - The best deterrence is a well armed and ready for battle Army – Lets not forget this.

It is high time we put the ghost of Bofors to rest and as a nation have the babus, leaders start focusing on what is needed to ensure we have the best deterrence to protect our democracy. When it comes to the defence of land- Days of Lip service, Gutter Politics and indecision is over. Now starts the time for the decisions to be made regardless of risk and consequence.

Lets hope and pray that this brave soul and his peers watching us from the sky are proud of what we as a nation are willing to do to ensure that life of solider is full of dignity and he has the tools and weapons to deter our enemies from ever making decision to threaten our democracy and our way of life. Lets not get into should VKS leave or not… lets pray that this has opened our eyes( as a nation) to what is lacking for a while and is in need of immediate correction. Jai Hind.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 02 Apr 2012 06:48

Philip wrote:In the Czech and Slovak states?

Denmark and Belgium
Also, can someone probe the linkage between Mrs Kaul (ABV's friend) and SG

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 02 Apr 2012 07:11

Philip wrote:The worst accusations that have been hurled at him have been that he has been too busy with his personal issue of the DOB and did not see to equipping the IA with its critical needs,which in fact have been pending throughout the terms of UPA 1&2 long before Gen.VKS became chief

Not true. It was under his watch that the COAS was able to consume the allocated capital budget for two years in 09-10, 10-11. The COAS said that he could not do the same for last year as for 6 months there was a key secretary position in the MoD, which was lying vacant and the new person in the job, could not move fast enough. So, no he did not take his eye off the ball on the DoB issue.

As you know, the consummation of the capital budget is a rare feat in our system of procurements and the face that the COAS was able to do this for two years is nothing less than a miracle.

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 02 Apr 2012 07:17

Vidta, the journalist who took that 'explosive' interview, opines and clears the air about the timing of Gen Singh's interview. Sack the general, did you say?

Also, three cheers for Kunal Verma for standing up for the chief and presenting the facts at NDTV's "We The People" program.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Apr 2012 07:24

Rony wrote:Wise words from Admiral Vishnu Bhagvat at the end of the debate on the role of the Arms lobby and 'middle men' .The key objection being foreign intel agencies piggy ride on middle men and arms lobby and it is the easiest way to get access to key serving officers both military and civilian.

http://www.timesnow.tv/Debate-Army-Chie ... 399194.cms

Rony in my IITM days I used to go to British Council Library in Madras. I distinctly recall a book about a British arms dealer who had served in British Army intel section and his job was to evaluate captured FSU weapons in Korea. He later took early retirement and used his connections. In 1992, I saw his face on CNN talking about Iraq!
His name was some Robert Sharp or Smart?

Take the case of that American in Singapore who setup an arms peddling business. Then the whole slew of FSU guys.

So arms peddlers are often connected to intel agencies from time immemorial.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Apr 2012 07:28

CNN blog on who sells what to whom!

http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com ... s-exports/

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 02 Apr 2012 07:48

Transcript: Your Call with former Defence Minister Jaswant Singh

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/full- ... ngh-192576

New Delhi: It has been a turbulent week for the Government and the Army Chief, with the controversies surrounding Army Chief General VK Singh dropping two letter-bombs. Today, on Your Call, former Defence Minister Jaswant Singh talks to NDTV's Sonia Singh on the row.

NDTV: Good Evening and welcome to Your Call. This week I am honoured to be joined by a man who is a politician and a gentleman. A man who has been a former Finance Minister, External Affairs Minister and Defence Minister, BJP leader Jaswant Singh. Thank you very much Sir for joining me tonight. I mention Defence Minister, but of course that's though relatively short compared to your other two stints. It's something, which I think you felt particularly close to because of your background in the Armed Forces. When you see what's happening today, what is your reaction at the end of the week, which has been a turbulent one?

Jaswant Singh: I am filled with great concern and if I use the word despair it is not exaggerating. Because I think in an earlier talk with you I used the phrase. This is the saw down of the country, gone blunted and what the last week; just the week. The previous so many years, what it is demonstrated, is an absence of understanding of what the Armed Forces really are; and an absence of grasping the sensibilities of the Armed Forces. A total, near total, this junked between the Ministry of Defence and the Armed Forces, and an absence of leadership from the political community. By which I really mean both the Prime Minister and the Defence Minister. After all the Prime Minister is the Chairman of the Cabinet Committee on Security.

NDTV: No, but given that Sir, and given the shocking details that seems to be in that letter which became public. This isn't something that happened overnight and of course the people in the UPA will say, look at what happened in Kargil. And we have seen recommendations by the expert committee in Kargil, recommendations by a group of Ministers. Then nothing happened, with successive governments, whether it's NDA or UPA. So in that sense the political class; can you single out just the Prime Minister and the current Defence Minister, it's a larger issue.

Jaswant Singh: I don't do that but because you referred to Kargil. I had quite a good deal to do with Kargil. I don't want to speak in first person singular, but the reality is, and this is a fact. The Kargil attack on India is the only battle, should I put it, that India has fought since Independence, after which, in which firstly not a single inch of land was conceded. Secondly after the battle, war or whatever you wish to call it, the government of the day ordered a full review of what had happened. And it's a brilliant report that the late Subrahmanyam, because the review comprised of Subrahmanyam, then George Verghese and others. The committee or Group of Ministers was constituted under Mr Advani ji. It's a wonderful report, it addressed all issues. There were recommendations about the Defence Ministry. But you are right.

NDTV: But nothing happened with this recommendation?

Jaswant Singh: Nothing.

NDTV: Very little.

Jaswant Singh: That is a qualitative term, little, but not satisfactory. The approach is once issues or matters get trapped in the liberance of bureaucracy; l meant by a huge gap between the Ministry, that is the civil part of it and the Armed Forces, though they inhabit the same physical territory in the South Block. And we did, have one of the recommendations, and it was on paper implemented that there should be total integration between the Ministry of Defence and the three services of the Armed Forces. There were various other recommendations, we were told they were, but they are not integrated, there is a separation, us and them. This must not be.

NDTV: In fact, I would also like to go to someone else when we brought up Kargil. Somebody whose son died in Kargil, his parents are Colonel Thapar and his wife, their young son Lt. Vijender Thapar had died in Kargil, and let's just go across to them to see what they have to ask. And we will come back to that issue which was raised about hostilities. Let's go across to Col Thapar and his wife.

Mrs Thapar: I want to know why the tenth anniversary of the Kargil War was not celebrated? Why was there no leader there on that day? It made me sad nobody bothered. I felt very hurt, because we are bringing politics into Army and that is very damaging. It is damaging to the morale of the Army.

Jaswant Singh: I agree with you. I share totally what you say. It is not just Kargil. With great difficulty we observe the achievements of the Indian Army in Bangladesh. We have virtually forgotten the IPKF and the suffering examples of IPKF. Why has this happened? Because I think the conflict of political interest between political parties has caused a lot of casualty in the spirit.

Mrs Thapar: My son didn't die for a party. He died for his country.

Jaswant Singh: I agree absolutely I agree. I mean how can I refute what you are saying. I don't want to speak in this sense, but for example my wife, she is an Army daughter, she married me, she is an Army wife and her elder son is also an Army officer. So we are Army. But if I am not Army or she is not Army she fully empathises with what you are saying. And she is bitterly, deeply, critical of the way that; in fact when I told her that I was coming on this programme, she said you must say it then. I don't know if I should or not, but I will say it. She said all that we are witnessing that is happening, is so to ensure that some chain or promotion etcetera takes place at the cost of the entire interest of the Army. It is this new thing, which has brought the bonding in the Army into such a state.

NDTV: Col and Mrs Thapar, thank you so much for joining us on this show tonight. Now let me go across to a question with someone from your constituency, but let's just see what he had to say. Let's go across to Darjeeling.

Col K Tshering: I am Col K Tshering from your matrabhoomi that is Darjeeling. The kind of scams surrounding North Block and South Block, low morale of troops, at least I am not very happy, my morale is low. I'm sure my friends on the borders, their morale is also low. Now in view of these circumstances, do you think that in case of an outbreak of hostility with our adversaries, do you think we will do well in that?

NDTV: The question raised by the gentleman from Darjeeling, who made the point that, the morale of Armed Forces at the border.

Jaswant Singh: The key to your question is about morale. Surely this is an example of very poor morale. Of course if deficiencies, the deficiencies become public, but you must know that these soldiers, sailors, airmen, they deal with that. They are familiar with what is and what is not. They know what the deficiencies are broadly, not in detail. Now it's the appalling ignorance that, unfortunately, about the Armed Forces and their functioning that broadly causes this kind of, I think, unwanted comment. But it does dent the state of morale. What damages moral much more is squabbling within the senior ranks of the Army. This is very damaging. And morale is to physical, is four is to one. Not so much equipment deficiency which dents the fighting quality of a force, it is the absence of model and effective leadership.

NDTV: In fact when we come to that, we have seen the case of one Lt. General now taking the Army Chief to court, a former head of the Defence Intelligence Agency, a crucial post. Leave aside the politicians, this squabbling within the army, your wife mentioned over promotions, whatever this may be about, a CBI case against another man who is in line to be the Army Chief; is that really something which you would like to tell seniors to rethink about it?

Jaswant Singh: This is very shabby, this is not acceptable and this is not behoven conduct of an officer and gentleman. There is nobody to judge, you have to judge yourself and I occasionally, very painfully, to write and say it's of the Chief, who am I to judge? After all this is a very distinguished soldier. But all that I said you have to do is to remember that inscription by Field Marshall Chetwode on Chetwode Hall. Because after the parade on passing out, the cadets slow march to Chetwode Hall and on top there is an inscription, "The security or welfare of your country comes first, always and every time." There are of course the men that you command and then last, is your own. I don't want to judge, because I think I diminish, not so much the person, as the great Chief of the Army Staff; in judging personally I cannot claim the objectivity, the office is more important than the individual. If you keep chipping at the office then you will damage the effectiveness of it, and will of course damage effective morale. You have a situation, I am very sorry I have to say, my colleagues in Parliament start shouting, throw him out, and you can't. Can they imagine what effect this has? On television, which is everywhere, the troops they watch, and troops watching this, what will they think?

NDTV: You have MPs like Lalu Prasad Yadav, other MPs, who, I think, Armed Forces and other people would not regard as say the epitome of morality. Taking on an Army Chief, the institution on corruption, what do you think? He says the Army Chief wants to fight elections.

Jaswant Singh: Oh come on don't gather all this, don't reduce everything to the level of absurd politics, this is absurd. It's so absurd it's almost an obscenity. Politics is not the end of our life. Everything is not politically oriented. Here the issue is, the combat effectiveness of the Armed Forces is the issue; of the national security, the issue really is the effectiveness of the slowdown of the country. For heaven's sake, don't reduce it to a kind of level we witness every day in Parliament.

NDTV: I think one of the other worrying aspects was about the question of corruption in Defence procurements and this information about Tatra trucks now, which has come up. Now the question that has been raised that these have been in use since 1986, the irregularities in procurement have clearly been in place since pretty much then. Why has no former Defence Minister, Government , Army Chief raise this earlier?

Jaswant Singh: I am guilty. In between I have been Defence Minister. I must admit this never came to my mind. And so in that sense even if I make a comment here I am just as guilty as any of the previous Defence Ministers would be. I cannot cite ignorance as my defence, I did not know of it; I did not take any action. It is no good saying that I was not there long enough. Yes you are right I am partly to blame. But what has happened is at another level of; why this became, why has this become not just Tatra. You see in 1986, around '86-'87, I believe was a kind of climactic year, because that is when the infamous Bofors hit India. I had gone with General Sundarji to the trial of Bofors. I had said to him this is a very good gun; it's very badly procured. Because I said it's a very good gun my party got annoyed with me. But I also tried very hard to find out. I also went to Sweden at my own cost and I fought for this issue until I came against the wall of non-cooperation. Then I realized that Bofors will have very long-term consequences in Defence procurement. Because if we were not able to identify and award punishment to the wrong doers, then of course people can say that we can do it. And then of course it was only about 86 or 84 crores, now it's hundreds of crores.

NDTV: The Tehelka scandal in the NDA tenure. I think the saddest part of this is that you will have Defence Ministers come and go, you have Army Chiefs come and go, but the corruption and procurement system has not gone. And the worry is, that on the other hand you have become so conscious that you slow down the normal procurement modernization, yet the rot has not been stemmed at all.

Jaswant Singh: I think two things that have happened. You are right absolutely right, what has happened is that we have now a system that has become dysfunctional and because it is dysfunctional, if we were to assume it is, therefore pure and unsullied. On the contrary, the reverse has happened. George after Tehalka etc etc reinstated as Defence Minister, started sending any proposal for any procurement as an aspect to the CVC, before he even looked at the file, and I told him George this is wrong. The CVC or the CMDGE or CBI, I did also use that phrase once, that we are crippled these 3Cs, the tyranny of the C. If I am Defence Minister, then I am responsible for all the good, if I take credit for all the good, then I must also take the discredit for what is not good. Stand up and be recognized, you knew, ye thik nahi hua kahiye ki galti ho gayiaage hum sudharenge. George by then was so traumatised that he couldn't take a decision. Now we are suffering because of that. No decisions are taken, because suppose we were to take a decision, for heaven sake, governance is all about taking decisions, not about immobility of thought, what if I make a mistake? For heaven's sake again, take a decision and out of ten, even if you make five mistakes, at least from five every mistake will teach you something. This is what is happening. The government is paralyzed in action because the possibility of the mistake paralyses them.

....

NDTV: When you look back at your years, the greatest regret you have had in these many years in public life, what would you define that as?

Jaswant Singh: Kandahar was not a mistake. The priority was to save lives. See governance is not about; it's not a choice between good and not so good. The choice is always between bad and worse. It is terrible to let a 166 human beings perish because you feel that you must not take step A or B. It's very bad to compromise on the fight against terrorism and say okay, take these three back and leave 166.How do you decide? Look, government has a clear, it's not as if it's a yes or no decision. So you decide government must work for preserving life. I went because, if I hadn't gone, on a last minute decision, had to be who to take them? But I also don't want to say it. It's not that my going there was without risk. But I don't want to side, somebody had to go. And coming back in that aircraft. The stench. The relief of men and women trapped in the tube of Airbus for seven days in the freezing cold of winter in Kandahar, with one toilet. One of the passengers said to me, where are my children, why did you come so late? Caught hold of me; this is of course traumatic. Because these decisions were so important to me; how can I explain how these decisions become so necessary? But of course it's part of governance. So you take a decision and stand up and be counted for it.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 02 Apr 2012 07:54

Marten,

I have posted two meanings from the online dictionary. My one general sentence covers both the meanings if you are kind enough to notice.

chaanakya,

ROFL. The very basics of of law is being changed. Also, the very nature of the VKS disclosure is not for this. I have repeatedly said about it. I think, its time to move to VKS vs TS, which is the issue right now.

anmol.

please don't twist facts, as its open for everyone to read. it was VKS who said that. Why should the onus of the AKA action should be on me, when VKS himself says that AKA did it.

Let Sumair speak for himself, when I have replied to him. Speak for yourself.

ShauryaT,

If there is nothing, and then if we make him accountable, then it is actually praise for him. he helped utilize Indian tax payers money without any wrong doings. isn't it? So, lets nail him if he wrong. What if we end up helping him for free?

Added later......

Guys, won't be on debate till probably tomorrow morning. headed to a Def vehicle mfg company. Hopefully they will have some quotable.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Apr 2012 08:07

From JS interview,

What is needed is self-assessment and accountability. One has to be constantly self aware that one is doing is for the best interests of the country. There is no other alternative.

Also looks like one Tehelka scam paralysed George Kaka and the rest followed in that stasis mode.

Yet no PM who is really in charge never took these fakers to task!

Kapil · Post by **Kapil** » 02 Apr 2012 08:16

Something significant from yesterday's We The People on NDTV

KV stated quite bluntly on the prgm that AKA had been 'economical' with the truth when he had given out his version of the meeting between him and VKS after the latter had come to him to appraise the RM of the bribe offer. The Hindu interview to Vidya Subrahmaniam had also quoted the General as saying he offered to quit. This had hitherto been ignored in the clamour by politicians and bureaucrats to sack the General. Going by what KV said, and the fact that AKA has earlier misled the Rajya Sabha on the age issue, all parties are in agreement upto the point where AKA held his head in his hands! Then AKA says (as per him) "General, you take action!' VKS says (as per AKA again) 'I don't want to pursue the matter!' AKA hints the matter ended there.
AKA's saying to VKS 'you take action' amounts to saying I'm not going to do anything about it. KV said that the conversation did not end there. VKS said to AKA at that point, 'If I'm standing in the way of the system, I'm willing to resign now.' (Even in the Hindu interview VKS says that he was willing to quit). AKA brushed that aside and said 'we must not allow such people inside'.
End of matter? Not quite. VKS returns to his office, cancels the recommendation for making TS the NTRO Chief and red flags Tatra. matter comes up only in March 2012 after TS resurfaces and tries to spread the bugging story.
Today, all politicians are quoting AKA's words as the gospel truth to throw muck at VKS.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 02 Apr 2012 08:31

Kapil wrote:Something significant from yesterday's We The People on NDTV

The Hindu interview to Vidya Subrahmaniam had also quoted the General as saying he offered to quit. This had hitherto been ignored in the clamour by politicians and bureaucrats to sack the General.

If you check the beginning of the debate news reports, VKS said

The General said he went straight to Mr. Antony and reported the matter. “I told him, if you think I'm a misfit, I will walk out.”

This statement is being twisted in TV debate?

My last word on this today. I am off, as mentioned in past post.

Couldn't resist.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Apr 2012 08:38

Well the politicians are Lalu Yadav involved in stealing fodder from cows akin to gau hatya, and Madhu Yaski a rascal peddling visas in New Jersey and now an MP from all the blood and tears of software gullibles in New Jersey! As for INC they dont have a honest bone in their body.They have been stealing from the Defence ministry since the Jeep scandal!!!

____

CJ I thought you were off to some def vehicle guy. How come you still find time to get one in?

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 02 Apr 2012 08:41

The paralysis is due to conflicting requirements on the political leaders and babus. One is the requirement to loot as much as possible. The other is the requirement to cover their asses, so that they are safe when the scam breaks. No deal is allowed to go through unless safe loot can be assured.

Sumair · Post by **Sumair** » 02 Apr 2012 09:54

Mr. ChakoJoseph the defense minster Mr. Anthony may be an honest man and that pretty much is the consensus, but that is not the issue. It is the dereliction of duties to the nation as the defense minister, to stop the loot and punish the guilty once he became aware. And he has known this at least since 2009, way before the chief brought it to his attention. Now it is entirely possible that though wanting he may not have been able to or allowed to act by the “forces” that be. If so then as patriotic citizen of India he should have done his duty by telling his real bosses the, PUBLIC. This is why his defense is indefensible.

General VKS did the most important thing; tell his boss. As for non-action against General Tajinder Singh. For what purpose; passing along a message on behest of some one. He wasn’t the real bribe giver or the offerer. He is merely a small pawn in this much larger game. So why prosecute the General for his inaction against a non crime, against someone of no consequence. Beyond that he did whatever was reasonable and within his powers.

The ESSENCE that is getting lost time and again or is brilliantly being deflected is the identification of the PEOPLE making this extra money, and how to stop and punish them. Maybe a wishful thinking though, because I don’t even think that Mr. Ravi Rishi is the real culprit. He as business-man is doing what he is supposed to do. Maximize his profits by whatever means. So who is the puppet master???

alexis · Post by **alexis** » 02 Apr 2012 09:58

Sanku wrote:
I did not say you are corrupt, I said doing a "Gen VKS == AKA" is supporting corruption BECAUSE

1) Gen VKS did a lot in curbing corruption visibly.
2) AKA has definetly gone slow on cases of corruption and has also not supported Gen VKS on issues like attack on Gen VKS during DoB.
3) AKA has also had Deepak Kapoor and JJ Singh's boss and did nothing to curb the misdeeds under them.
4) AKA has a far large role and responsibility as head of the entire MoD, and looking after the 3 services and the coast guard etc.

So if in light of above data point some one says Gen VKS is similar to AKA, and says it is his view point. Following options exist

1) The person is not able to see the real world picture despite being pointed out.
2) The person is supporting corruption.

You have a choice, look at the data and change your mind, that option exists. No need to take a fixed position irrespective of facts on the grounds.

Sir, you are still on your high horse, it seems. Since you like options and choices, take your pick:
1. You have an agenda against AKA and want to install a more corrupt RM, implying you support corruption;
2. You are not able to see the real world picture despite being pointed out.

Take your pick

For the record, I did not say VKS = AKA. i only said both are to be blamed for keeping the issue under lid for last 2 years.

AKA also did many good things for the services:
1. The utilization of defence funds were better under him compared to earlier ministers
2. MMRCA competition was done on a transparent bidding process and he did not let pressure from US or Russia creep into the process.

I do agree that he was slow in the artillery acquisition process.

Both VKS and AKA have been responsible for preventing/limiting the corruption in defense forces. If both were keeping mu, there are reasons which are not available in public domain.

A good news on the China front :
http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... enterprise

Jaybhatt · Post by **Jaybhatt** » 02 Apr 2012 10:03

Yes right. I practically experienced FIR few months back. Here is how it goes.

A person has to file FIR with police for getting them act on a case
The police does its inquiry, prepares a charge sheet and then depending upon it case may forward it to a magistrate.
The person who filed FIR (and if the counter FIR is filed), then he (and the counter FIR registrant) hire a lawyer and the lawyer amends or expands FIR. I am sure you must have read in news paper that the Police registered FIR in some other section and then they were forced to change it by the complainants lawyer.
The concerned parties then slug it out in the court.

So a FIR is not final, the charge sheet is.

Chanakya :

Please remember another writer on this thread, very confidently, referred to the FIR as a "First Interim Report", a fictitious and meaningless phrase that has no existence in Indian law. He then went on to derail the discussion on his post.

Jaybhatt · Post by **Jaybhatt** » 02 Apr 2012 10:22

ramana wrote:Brajesh Mishra should have been dismissed for giving wrong advice to ABV after the 1998 tests to declare the moratorium before the G-8 meeting. India declared moratorium and yet got sanctioned! BM did not cooridnate all the stakeholders of the deterrent:political, scientific, military and the foreign service. He relied only on one set of stake holders. His successors had to coordinate the others and get India out of the sanctions bag.

It was the premature moratorium that led to Kargil fiasco for it gave the enemies hope that India would be wanting. This guy should have been grilled by KRC. Yet he gives interviews and behaves as eminence grise!

The other NSAs Dixit, MKN, SSM had to clean his mess. And now he is talking. Should shut up and contemplate his own role in the mess that India was in the first decade of the 21st century.

The fellow was also the NSA at the time of the Kandahar hijacking and played a dismal role in the entire affair. The release of the Pakistani terrorists at Kandahar was the root cause of the the Parliament attack of 2001 and the Mumbai attack of 2008.

We must also remember that this chap has been accused of bailing out Rahul baba in Boston airport when the latter was copped by the FBI for carrying a huge amount of undeclared cash dollars.

Mishra is a low-life who is unfit to clean the good General's shoes.

alexis · Post by **alexis** » 02 Apr 2012 10:30

peter wrote:
alexis wrote:
VKS and AKA may have valid reasons for not pursuing the matter of bribe. However, just to raise it in public after 2 years without taking any action in between is not correct.
Are you a chacko avatar?

Is Chacko a god to have avatars? Are you surprised that there are other people who have a different view from you?

alexis · Post by **alexis** » 02 Apr 2012 11:56

rohitvats wrote:In this debate about TATRA trucks, let us look at some basic numbers:

1. The CAG report says that in 2009 BEML was selling one of the TATRA truck types to the IA at ~INR 85L. The report also says it was making a profit of ~30% in each vehicle - which is around INR 25.5L. Which means that the cost to BEML was ~INR 60L.

2. Now, we know that BEML get TATRA from Europe in CKD and assembles the same in India. The INR 60L cost to BEML would include the labor cost. So, assuming that BEML does "value addition" of INR 5L on each truck, the cost to BEML (actually India) should be around INR 55L.

3. This INR 55L is the price at which TATRA Sipox sells to India and would include the transportation cost and all other sundry expenses.

4. Now, it has been suggested that TATRA Czech is made to sell the trucks to TATRA Sipox at near cost or even below cost. And the profit is made by TATRA Sipox. Now, how much profit per vehicle would TATRA Sipox be making? 15%?20%?25%?30%?

5. In each of the above cases, the cost price of TATRA trucks is likely to be INR 47/44/41/39 L respectively. So, the IA ends up paying 70% to 85% more than what it should had it sourced the vehicles from Czech TATRA.

6. We still don't know whether the INR 85L price is for 6x6 or 8x8 TATRA trucks.

Small nitpick -
1)taxes and duties on imports need to be factored in.
2) Shipping costs also need to be factored

There is no doubt TATRA is overpriced (by 40-70 lakh depending on various report). Only how much of this BEML's take and how mark-up goes to Vectra needs to be figured out. If anybody can point out the costs for item 1) and 2), we can make some estimates.