India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Amber G.
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11013
Joined: 17 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Amber G. »

Even stranger than my sanskrit slokas being dissed here...
My example of Banana equivalent dose of radiation being taken too seriously in Japan ..

No it is not April fools joke.. and no I am not making it up..

Taza khabar from Forbes ...
(The original head line..)

Japan Bans Bananas: From the Annals of Government Stupidity
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

From Forbes ..
It would seem that in the wake of the Fukushima disaster (you know, that nuclear disaster that hasn’t killed anyone at all and which will have such a small effect that we’ll never know whether it ever will) that the Japanese government has just decided to ban bananas.
Interesting part, the values (in Bq/Kg) are consistent with what I have estimated here in Brf.. Interesting part is they could have asked any ordinary physicist ...K40 in banana happens to be radioactive!
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Sanku »

Ahem Ahem, India nuclear thread.
amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by amit »

Amber G. wrote:Link: DECC: STATISTICAL RELEASE: 2011 UK

The pdf document at the bottom is worth reading. Some key points:

An 8% drop in carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions in the UK in 2011 was helped by an 11% increase in electricity output from the country's nuclear power plants,

(UK CO2 emissions in 2011 totalled an estimated 456.3 million tonnes, compared with 495.8 million tonnes in 2010. This decrease "resulted primarily from a decrease in residential gas use, combined with a reduction in demand for electricity accompanied by lower use of gas and greater use of nuclear power for electricity generation)
The decrease in emissions from this sector since 2010 can almost entirely be attributed to power stations ...A 17% drop in gas use for generation together with an 11% increase in the use of nuclear power led to a fall of about 7% in emissions from electricity generation.
.
Hi Amber,

I missed this point in one of your earlier posts. So an 11 per cent increase in N-power contributed quite considerably to a fall in CO2 emissions.

I guess this is quite a fitting response to some stuff that has been posted here:
The impact of hydo-carbon/coal is so overwhelming in all energy mix, and nuclear such a minuscule component, that the absence or presence of it is completely irrelevant in terms of pollution.
Link

Actually some obvious points remain invisible to folks who have closed minds.

Nuclear is a "minuscule amount" in total energy mix. However, renewables is an even tinnier "minuscule amount" in the total energy mix.

So in effect we shouldn't be pursuing renewables either because, after all, "the absence or presence of it is completely irrelevant in terms of pollution". Logical isn't it?

This is what comes out of fashioning the debate as one between renewables vs nuclear and not what it should be renewables + nuclear vs coal.

Let me put another apt quote from the post I linked above:
... difficult to get it into thick heads.

Added later: For completeness let me requote from an earlier post of mine which had a link to a Yale Univ published article:
Nuclear power is one of the few resources that can allow China to burn less coal. China now combusts 3 billion metric tons of coal each year, overtaking the U.S. as the world’s largest emitter of greenhouse gases. Several thousand miners die each year digging up the dirty black rock and the choking air pollution caused by coal burning costs the country $100 billion a year in medical care, according to the World Bank. “Any nuclear power plant going up is actually displacing fossil fuels,” Candris says.

That also explains the interest in nuclear power in places like the UK and U.S. For example, the UK hopes to build as many as eight new nuclear power plants to supplement the nine existing ones, all part of its bid to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. But building a nuclear reactor in the UK or U.S. is a slow process, taking years if not decades. In fact, the newest nuclear reactor in the U.S. — Watts Bar 2 in Tennessee — is simply the completion of a reactor that began construction more than 30 years ago.
Last edited by amit on 03 Apr 2012 11:08, edited 1 time in total.
amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by amit »

Sanku wrote:Ahem Ahem, India nuclear thread.
Let's put it this way, the thread has gone bananas. Too much radiation has fizzled some brains.
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Sanku »

amit wrote:
... difficult to get it into thick heads.
Sorry, folks, claiming that others are idiots and you are greatest thing since sliced bread is merely empty rhetoric.

Its a pity that such small minded bigotry is being allowed on BRF -- when your science is wrong, insulting others is not likely to make it right.
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Sanku »

amit wrote:quote="Amber G.">>Link: DECC: STATISTICAL RELEASE: 2011 UK

The pdf document at the bottom is worth reading. Some key points:

An 8% drop in carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions in the UK in 2011 was helped by an 11% increase in electricity output from the country's nuclear power plants,

(UK CO2 emissions in 2011 totalled an estimated 456.3 million tonnes, compared with 495.8 million tonnes in 2010. This decrease "resulted primarily from a decrease in residential gas use, combined with a reduction in demand for electricity accompanied by lower use of gas and greater use of nuclear power for electricity generation)
The decrease in emissions from this sector since 2010 can almost entirely be attributed to power stations ...A 17% drop in gas use for generation together with an 11% increase in the use of nuclear power led to a fall of about 7% in emissions from electricity generation.
.
Extremely questionable conclusion, of course since its a pamphlet by a nuclear energy group it will try and tom tom Nuclear aspect, however slight, but let us see what the data is actually saying

17% drop in gas use of generation
Decrease in residential gas use -- unspecified.
Overall reduction in demand for electricity -- unspecified (we do not know what 17% drop in gas means in terms of energy %, neither 11% increase in use of nuclear till we know what their previous contribution was)

All in all very limited data -- in absence of which, the conclusion is fraudulent, unscientific, biased and self serving.

==============================


In reality the drop in emissions are almost certainly as a result of net lower energy consumption triggered by the economic climate.
amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by amit »

Sanku wrote:
... difficult to get it into thick heads.

Sorry, folks, claiming that others are idiots and you are greatest thing since sliced bread is merely empty rhetoric.

Its a pity that such small minded bigotry is being allowed on BRF -- when your science is wrong, insulting others is not likely to make it right.
Sanku if you had clicked that link you'd have found that the first quote was from you and the thick heads comment was from Channakya with a +100 to your post. Both posts - including the thick heads comment - were directed towards me.

You are right small minded bigotry is being allowed on BRF. I'm sorry it hurts when you're on the receiving end. Please be advised that, within the norms of decency, decorum and forum rules you'll get back as good (and even better) that you give. I suggest you keep that in mind before you launch your next ad hominem attacks. **

That being said, if you can discuss something in a civil manner I'll be more than happy to engage in conversation. I do that all the time with folks whose POV don't match mine.

** Some of your more recent examples of ad hominen attacks:

This is a stupid rhetoric
Link

I would advocate the gentle readers go back and read amit's copious venom against renewables on this thread itself …
Link
amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by amit »

Sanku wrote:All in all very limited data -- in absence of which, the conclusion is fraudulent, unscientific, biased and self serving.
Data is there for those who look for it.
The decrease in emissions from this sector since 2010 can almost entirely be
attributed to power stations. Demand for electricity was 3 per cent lower in
2011 than in 2010, and there was also a change in the fuel mix used at power
stations for electricity generation.

The technical problems which had been experienced at some nuclear power stations in 2010 were resolved, and there
was therefore more nuclear power available for electricity generation in 2011.
Consequently, there was a 17 per cent decrease in gas use for generation,
alongside an 11 per cent increase in the use of nuclear power.
Together, these
changes resulted in a decrease of around 7 per cent in emissions from
electricity generation.
In 2011, CO2 emissions from power stations, at 146.0 Mt,
accounted for just under a third of all CO2 emissions.
Of course one can say that the Department of Energy & Climate Change in the UK doesn't know anything filled as they are with "thick heads"
Last edited by amit on 03 Apr 2012 11:46, edited 1 time in total.
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Sanku »

Well Amit, back to selective out of context quotation again? Not being able to prevail on ideas battle you guys are back to personal attacks?

Just look at the first post on this page and your other posts -- but heck why I am bothering.
disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 8423
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by disha »

Amber G. wrote:Japan Bans Bananas: From the Annals of Government Stupidity

Interesting part, the values (in Bq/Kg) are consistent with what I have estimated here in Brf.. Interesting part is they could have asked any ordinary physicist ...K40 in banana happens to be radioactive!
Not just bananas and brazilian nuts, but lima beans will also set of gieger counters.

Here is another thing about a natural reactor (that is a nuclear reactor created by Earth itself)

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... &ref=sciam

Looks like now Kerala wants in on the power from the plant. More power to them. Meanwhile this news needs to be celebrated:

127 school kids will get a better chance of learning
amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by amit »

Sanku wrote:Well Amit, back to selective out of context quotation again? Not being able to prevail on ideas battle you guys are back to personal attacks?

Just look at the first post on this page and your other posts -- but heck why I am bothering.
:D

Well you're the one who objected to me quoting Channakya ji's "thick heads" comment. Maybe some folks have the monopoly on such phrases Sanku Maharaj? Things like "amit's copious venom", "stupid rhetoric" etc?

Anyway choro, I'm not interested in discussing this with you but do note the point I made in my second last post. I mean every word of it.
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Sanku »

amit wrote:
Sanku wrote:All in all very limited data -- in absence of which, the conclusion is fraudulent, unscientific, biased and self serving.
Data is there for those who look for it.
The decrease in emissions from this sector since 2010 can almost entirely be
attributed to power stations. Demand for electricity was 3 per cent lower in
2011 than in 2010, and there was also a change in the fuel mix used at power
stations for electricity generation.
Let me see which data were missing

17% drop in gas use of generation
Decrease in residential gas use -- unspecified.
Overall reduction in demand for electricity -- unspecified (we do not know what 17% drop in gas means in terms of energy %, neither 11% increase in use of nuclear till we know what their previous contribution was)

-------------------------

So what do we see now with this extra bit -- reduction in demand for electricity 3%.
We still do not know the residential drop and hence overall impact.


Also we this is merely a year over year estimate -- not a life cycle estimate. Considering that any meaningful emission study is ONLY for a life cycle estimate -- this data point, still continues to not make much sense.

Let us have the TOTAL emission drop in UK, with TOTAL energy use picture -- over a LONG TIME FRAME with amortized life cycle costs (plant decommissioning costs)

Then the claim of lower emissions can even be started to be considered. At this point of time, it is just meaningless.
amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by amit »

Sanku wrote:We still do not know the residential drop and hence overall impact.
Data is available for those who look for it.
In 2011, an estimated 40 per cent of carbon dioxide emissions were from the
energy supply sector
, 26 per cent from transport, and 15 per cent from each of
the business and residential sectors
.
Between 2010 and 2011, provisional estimates indicate that CO2 emissions
decreased in the residential sector by 22 per cent (19 Mt), 6 per cent (12 Mt)
from the energy supply sector, 8 per cent (6 Mt) from the business sector, and 1
per cent (2 Mt) in the transport sector.
Sanku wrote:Also we this is merely a year over year estimate -- not a life cycle estimate. Considering that any meaningful emission study is ONLY for a life cycle estimate -- this data point, still continues to not make much sense.

Let us have the TOTAL emission drop in UK, with TOTAL energy use picture -- over a LONG TIME FRAME with amortized life cycle costs (plant decommissioning costs)

Then the claim of lower emissions can even be started to be considered. At this point of time, it is just meaningless.
Sorry the "thick heads" in the department don't do lifecyle, the do year on year. What to do onlee?

But then the question does arise, if you haven't seen stats over a "LONG TIME FRAME with amortized life cycle costs" how do you claim that nuclear has a "minuscule effect" on CO2 reduction? Are you by any chance a clairvoyant?
(plant decommissioning costs)
I mean seriously Sanku Maharaj, even by your standards (and they are indeed high standards) this takes the cake. In a discussion on CO2 reduction you bring in plant decommissiong costs? I mean seriously... :eek: :eek:
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Sanku »

If there is no data, there should be no claims. Simple

Making claims on half data when countered -- should be met with acquiescence that there are gaps in understanding which need to be filled.

Trying to ward away questions whose answers are not known by rhetoric is now way to go.
amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by amit »

Sanku wrote:If there is no data, there should be no claims. Simple

Making claims on half data when countered -- should be met with acquiescence that there are gaps in understanding which need to be filled.

Trying to ward away questions whose answers are not known by rhetoric is now way to go.
So I guess you'd agree that statements such as this one:
The impact of hydo-carbon/coal is so overwhelming in all energy mix, and nuclear such a minuscule component, that the absence or presence of it is completely irrelevant in terms of pollution.
Is nothing but ill-informed rhetoric? After all,
Considering that any meaningful emission study is ONLY for a life cycle estimate -- this data point, still continues to not make much sense.
:?:
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Sanku »

amit wrote:
Sanku wrote:If there is no data, there should be no claims. Simple

Making claims on half data when countered -- should be met with acquiescence that there are gaps in understanding which need to be filled.

Trying to ward away questions whose answers are not known by rhetoric is now way to go.
So I guess you'd agree that statements such as this one:
The impact of hydo-carbon/coal is so overwhelming in all energy mix, and nuclear such a minuscule component, that the absence or presence of it is completely irrelevant in terms of pollution.
Is nothing but ill-informed rhetoric? After all,
Considering that any meaningful emission study is ONLY for a life cycle estimate -- this data point, still continues to not make much sense.
:?:
Boss, the share of Nuclear energy in overall energy mix of the world is a known data and is shared.

Also the overall carbon foot print of nuclear over its life cycle is not **fully known **but is already known to be far more significant that merely operating cycle. Far over gas in some assessments.

Those things are already known. That is why no one in the world really talks about Nuclear as a low carbon footprint option by and large anymore.

The onus is on Nuclear energy as clean fuel proponents to put out numbers for their claim of it being cleaner. They are the ones making the claim.

So yes, given the small %of nuclear energy, and studies which say that over its life cycle Nuclear is roughly equivalent to gas in terms of emission. It remains to be seen how the new claims made stand the scrutiny.
amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by amit »

Sanku wrote:Boss, the share of Nuclear energy in overall energy mix of the world is a known data and is shared.

Also the overall carbon foot print of nuclear over its life cycle is not **fully known **but is already known to be far more significant that merely operating cycle. Far over gas in some assessments.

Those things are already known. ...

The onus is on Nuclear energy as clean fuel proponents to put out numbers for their claim of it being cleaner. They are the ones making the claim.
First of all I don't agree with what you've written. But that's besides the point. I hope you realise that every one of your points above, applies equally to renewables, like % of energy contribution, carbon footprint over lifecycle (sicilon requires a lot of energy to make) etc. So going by the same logic why spend money on renewable?
That is why no one in the world really talks about Nuclear as a low carbon footprint option by and large anymore.
This is not correct (can you back up this claim?).

I think it's appropriate to quote you in response to what you wrote. (Ironic isn't it?)
Sanku wrote:If there is no data, there should be no claims. Simple
Sanku wrote:...studies which say that over its life cycle Nuclear is roughly equivalent to gas in terms of emission.
Wowa! This is a new one. Can you back it up with data?
amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by amit »

Sanku,

If you can, please back up the two new "claims" put on the table by you.

a) That is why on one in the world really talks about Nuclear as a low carbon footprint option by and large anymore.

I think "by and large" is a dead giveaway but benefit of doubt etc.


b) Studies which say that over its life cycle Nuclear is roughly equivalent to gas in terms of emission.

I'm sure you can add to the sum total of knowledge on this board if you can back up these two claims with respected studies/data and not Busby type trash.
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Sanku »

amit wrote: First of all I don't agree with what you've written. But that's besides the point. I hope you realise that every one of your points above, applies equally to renewables, like % of energy contribution, carbon footprint over lifecycle (sicilon requires a lot of energy to make) etc. So going by the same logic why spend money on renewable?
Irrelevant. We are talking about life cycle costs energy and emission for nuclear. Stick to it. Let us judge Nuclear on its own merits first, the others can be discussed on their own merits at a different point of time.

I am for example never opposed to Nuclear on the grounds that it is dirty, I am merely saying that making claims which do not hold up is not a way to go.

If life cycle emissions of other supposedly clean sources of energy is is a issue, I would certainly not ask for mega-giga-hydra plants for those. However that is certainly not the point of discussion in a INDIAN NUCLEAR thread.
That is why no one in the world really talks about Nuclear as a low carbon footprint option by and large anymore.
This is not correct (can you back up this claim?).
No I cant back up the claim that apart from Nuclear industry no one is promoting it as "green" alternative. However it is pretty clear to me at least by looking at the discussions on energy that Nuclear is not being pushed for low emission. In 60s yes. Today no.

But any data that could convince you, no I dont have that. Merely my personal observations.
Sanku wrote:...studies which say that over its life cycle Nuclear is roughly equivalent to gas in terms of emission.
Wowa! This is a new one. Can you back it up with data?
Already posted. Look at what is called the stromsmith study.
amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by amit »

Just so that folks here understand why I'm interested in where Sanku ji got his numbers from for Nuclear's carbon foot print and that being the same as gas, here what I've read in Nature
Benjamin K. Sovacool, a research fellow at the National University of Singapore, recently analyzed more than one hundred lifecycle studies of nuclear plants around the world, his results published in August in Energy Policy2. From the 19 most reliable assessments, Sovacool found that estimates of total lifecycle carbon emissions ranged from 1.4 grammes of carbon dioxide equivalent per kilowatt-hour (gCO2e/kWh) of electricity produced up to 288 gCO2e/kWh. Sovacool believes the mean of 66 gCO2e/kWh to be a reasonable approximation.
The large variation in emissions estimated from the collection of studies arises from the different methodologies used - those on the low end, says Sovacool, tended to leave parts of the lifecycle out of their analyses, while those on the high end often made unrealistic assumptions about the amount of energy used in some parts of the lifecycle. The largest source of carbon emissions, accounting for 38 per cent of the average total, is the "frontend" of the fuel cycle, which includes mining and milling uranium ore, and the relatively energy-intensive conversion and enrichment process, which boosts the level of uranium-235 in the fuel to useable levels. Construction (12 per cent), operation (17 per cent largely because of backup generators using fossil fuels during downtime), fuel processing and waste disposal (14 per cent) and decommissioning (18 per cent) make up the total mean emissions.
Now comes the part that's relevant here:
According to Sovacool's analysis, nuclear power, at 66 gCO2e/kWh emissions is well below scrubbed coal-fired plants, which emit 960 gCO2e/kWh, and natural gas-fired plants, at 443 gCO2e/kWh. However, nuclear emits twice as much carbon as solar photovoltaic, at 32 gCO2e/kWh, and six times as much as onshore wind farms, at 10 gCO2e/kWh.

"A number in the 60s puts it well below natural gas, oil, coal and even clean-coal technologies. On the other hand, things like energy efficiency, and some of the cheaper renewables are a factor of six better. So for every dollar you spend on nuclear, you could have saved five or six times as much carbon with efficiency, or wind farms," Sovacool says. Add to that the high costs and long lead times for building a nuclear plant about $3 billion for a 1,000 megawatt plant, with planning, licensing and construction times of about 10 years and nuclear power is even less appealing.
Do note that Sovacool makes it clear he doesn't like nuclear power plants, which is fine. But he doesn't make outlandish claims like nuclear has the same carbon footprint as gas.

There's more in the Nature article:
But, says Paul Genoa, director of policy development for the Nuclear Energy Institute (NEI), a nuclear industry association based in Washington DC, "it's a fallacy to say one energy source is better, and that we should use it everywhere. The reality is that we need a portfolio solution that will include nuclear." {This is something I agree with 400 per cent and in a nutshell this is my stand in the debate}

"If you look at lifecycle emissions from renewable technologies, typically they are on the order of only 1 to 5 per cent of a coal plant," says Paul Meier, director of the Energy Institute at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. Looked at as a replacement for fossil fuels, existing nuclear plants prevent 681 million tonnes of carbon from being emitted every year in the United States alone, according to the NEI.
The last bolded bit is further confirmation how the "minuscule effect on carbon footprint" comment was a mega ... One could always claim that this is a "half-data" claim. :rotfl: :rotfl:
Meier also points out that nuclear energy is capable of providing baseload power - that is, large amounts of power that can run consistently and reliably. Nuclear plants run 90 per cent of the time, while wind and solar power provide electricity only intermittently and have to be backed up, often by fossil fuel plants. "The modern electric grid relies on baseload power," says Genoa. "That's power that's running 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. It's only shut down for maintenance." Money spent on energy efficiency, however, is equivalent to increasing baseload power, since it reduces the overall power that needs to be generated, says Sovacool. And innovative energy-storage solutions, such as compressed air storage, could provide ways for renewables to provide baseload power.
amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by amit »

Since we were discussing the UK a while back here's what a UK Parliament document has to say about carbon footprint of nuclear.
Nuclear power generation has a relatively small carbon
footprint (~5gCO2 eq/kWh). Since there is no
combustion, (heat is generated by fission of uranium or
plutonium), operational CO2 emissions account for <1%
of the total.
Most emissions occur during uranium mining,
enrichment and fuel fabrication. Decommissioning
accounts for 35% of the lifetime CO2 emissions, and
includes emissions arising from dismantling the nuclear
plant and the construction and maintenance of waste
storage facilities. The most energy intensive phase of
the nuclear cycle is uranium extraction, which accounts
for 40% of the total CO2 emissions.
Some commentators
have suggested that if global nuclear generation capacity
increases, higher grade uranium ore deposits would be
depleted, requiring use of lower grade ores. This has
raised concerns that the carbon footprint of nuclear
generation may increase in the future
Some analysts are concerned that the future carbon
footprint of nuclear power could increase if lower grade
uranium ore is used, as it would require more energy to
extract and refine to a level usable in a nuclear reactor.
However, a 2006 study by AEA Technology calculated
that for ore grades as low as 0.03%, additional emissions
would only amount to 1.8gCO2 eq/kWh. This would raise
the current footprint of UK nuclear power stations from 5
to 6.8gCO2 eq/kWh. If lower grades of uranium are
used in the future the footprint of nuclear will increase,
but only to a level comparable with other ‘low carbon’
technologies and will not be as large as the footprints of
fossil fuelled systems.
Here's a chart from the report comparing carbon footprints:

Image

Please note that with CCS (carbon capture & sequestering) coal is actually lower than gas! :eek:

Coming back to nuclear, Sovacool's analysis puts the mean figure at 66 gCo2e/kWh. The AEA Tech study puts it at 6.8 gCo2e/KWh. Even if we take the higher figure its way below 443gCo2e/kWh for nartural gas fired plants. So I really wonder where Sanku got the information to do a == between nuclear and gas! :eek:

So we now have two different and authorative studies saying the same thing. Perhaps Sanku would like to quote the numbers from the "Stromsmith study" which refutes what Nature and the UK Parliament have to say?
amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by amit »

Sanku wrote:No I cant back up the claim that apart from Nuclear industry no one is promoting it as "green" alternative.
True the coal lobby is not promoting nuclear as "green" but it's quite happy to promote renewables. But have every asked why?

That's because nuclear competes with coal as baseload generation and in fact it's more efficient with a lower carbon footprint than either coal and gas.

With renewables - like solar power - you need to have fossil plants (if there's no nuclear plants in the pictue) to provide back up and baseload generation since the renewable sources are as of now still intermittent.

And that is why the coal lobby is very happy to fashion the argument as one between renewables and nuclear. And is it a mystery why they (meaning the coal lobby) wants renewables to kill nuclear? Sometimes its useful to really think something through before jumping to conclusion, IVVHMO onlee.
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Sanku »

Yawn......
amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by amit »

A usual reaction when faced with facts which force you to think for a change. Don't worry I'm no devastated by your reaction. :-)
Theo_Fidel

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Theo_Fidel »

It may not seem like it but all the operators at Fukushima agree that we were very very lucky. If the wind had not blow towards the ocean, if the fuel pools had boiled or cracked or the explosion had damaged the piping supplying water, etc. Of course the reason of no radiation casualties is because we have abandoned a large chunk of the planet around the accident site. So things are so dangerous that we can not approach, so the government mandates that no one approach and so somehow everything is safe because no one approached. :rotfl:
------------------------------------------------

I don't understand the focus on CO2. It does not matter. Nuclear will NOT replace a pound of coal because coal does things Nuclear never can. Actually the coal lobbies desperate enemy is gas not Nuclear. No one fears that Nuclear will take their jobs. It is the abject failure of Nuclear despite 60+ years lavish spending in the Trillions of $ that has brought us to this pass.
-----------------------------------------------

Not with the stupid misleading banana argument again. It was repeatedly eviscerated as a red herring many moons ago.
chaanakya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9513
Joined: 09 Jan 2010 13:30

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by chaanakya »

Co2 is not at all important , at least not in the Indian context or in the context of energy mix. Is it the case that Nuclear would be 100% or even 90 % of world power demand or even of India. If not then it is a spurious argument brought out by some nuke lobbies who want to sell their reactors.

Of 61 NPP under various stages of planning or construction , how many are in developed world which have the most advanced technology in this field as we have been told.
Poster also conveniently omits few sentences to enhance his context. And he also msiquotes by paraphrasing. But that is a know tactics we have seen earlier.
Exact words in the report as quoted in news report linked by the poster.
"Significant growth in the use of nuclear energy worldwide is still anticipated — between 35 percent and 100 percent by 2030 — although the Agency projections for 2030 are 7-8 percent lower than projections made in 2010."
So it is not as much as 100% but between 35 % and 100%. Wide variation by any estimate. It also says 7-8% lower than projections.

Another gem from the report
said the number of new reactor construction starts fell to only three last year - two in Pakistan and one in India - from 16 in 2010.
Thats far from the tall claim made in this thread.
Also last year, 13 reactors were officially declared as permanently shut down, including the four units at Fukushima as well as eight in Germany.
This represents the highest number of shutdowns since 1990, when the Chernobyl accident had a similar effect," the Vienna-based U.N. agency said in its annual Nuclear Technology Review. "As a comparison, 2010 saw only one shutdown and 2009 three."
At Fukushima one year ago, fires and explosions caused a full meltdown (oooooops I thought fizzicysts said not meltdown and report says full meltdown) in three reactors while a fourth was also damaged.
Almost all of Japan's 54 reactors sit idle, awaiting approvals to restart.
So while 61 NPP are yet to start 54 are offline.

But many countries are still pushing ahead with nuclear energy, with 64 reactors under construction at the end of 2011, most of them in Asia, said the document prepared for a closed-door meeting of the IAEA's 35-nation board last week.

so it was 64 and not 61 but mostly in Asia. Why not in Western world which contribute most to CO2? Why Asians are being fooled? Arent West supposed to be so wise that it provides livelihood to even Indian fyzicysts.

The report acknowledges , somewhat realistically,
"In countries considering the introduction of nuclear power, interest remained strong. Although some countries indicated that they would delay decisions to start nuclear power programs, others continued with their plans to introduce nuclear energy."
China and India are expected to remain the main centers of expansion in Asia and Russia is also forecast to see strong growth, it said.
Germany, Switzerland and Belgium decided to move away from nuclear power to grow reliance on renewable energy instead.
Whatever the report is worth, it must be read in its context. Fukushima has dented the pace of NPP growth significantly and contributed to uncertainty in the field. No wonder Nuclear lobbyist are trying hard to argue their cases.

BTW banana and CO2 are brought here to shut down the thread, I suspect.
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Sanku »

chaanakya wrote: BTW banana and CO2 are brought here to shut down the thread, I suspect.
Absolutely, it is very difficult to discuss anything, when the posting consists of disjointed statement pulled together from different places to say something which the original text never did.

Its tiring, the non stop misquotation peppered liberally with personal insults.
Amber G.
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11013
Joined: 17 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Amber G. »

Amitji wrote:Of course one can say that the Department of Energy & Climate Change in the UK doesn't know anything filled as they are with "thick heads"
Indeed, if one has to listen to utter tizziness of some, and insults/gaalis thrown at Indian scientists, leaders, physicists, noble laureates, respectable newspapers, and claiming that they are all idiots from "nuclear lobby" .. only parallel comes to my mind is:
Kasab_is_amar_singh_Zaid_Hamid's rants (== 1,400,000 died/will_die due to radiation in Japan) after no one (except a few, just like a few here in Brf who support such nonsense)paid attention to his "facts". He too started talking about grand conspiracy blaming everything on RAW, Mossad, Hindus, India..

Though, AFAIK, even he did not blame Sanskrit Slokas as nuclear-lobby bakwas. :eek:
Oh, well, meanwhile to the topic - important lessons to be learned for India :
Early returns to Fukushima
... enabling some residents to visit at will and work towards a permanent return. Two towns have opened, and a third will follow in two weeks' time.
At midnight on 1 April the restrictions on several areas within 20 kilometres of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant were revised. A significant part of these had shown dose rates caused by ambient radioactivity to be below 20 millisieverts per year { this is, as people should know, less than natural radiation in certain parts of Kerala} - the government's benchmark for the return... (two areas are open and ..) Minamisoma, will be granted the same status changes on 16 April .
Amber G.
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11013
Joined: 17 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Amber G. »

disha wrote: Not just bananas and brazilian nuts, but lima beans will also set of gieger counters.
We have discussed this in Brf and most, who know something about radiation, know it. Majority of false radiation alarms at US border are due to trucks carrying bananas.. (or cat litter or something like that)

Bed (Banana Equivalent dose - see wiki) as an unit of radiation is quite popular in some scientific circles as it puts things in perspective .. such as radiation risk due to living near NPP is about eating one banana per year..

I like the quote from Forbe:
Fukushima disaster (you know, that nuclear disaster that hasn’t killed anyone at all and which will have such a small effect that we’ll never know whether it ever will)
****
UCSF, a few weeks ago had a symposium. Top experts from Japan and world (radiation oncologists, physicists etc..) presented details about medical data gathered from thousands of residents near NPP.

Some may be interested in looking at those, though I understand for some this will be another rasion diet to through gaalis at the messanger..
Amber G.
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11013
Joined: 17 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Amber G. »

Theo_Fidel wrote:The question is ...
Almost all of them are in 3-4 countries. ...
Chetak, Amit and Theo,

My point was, the original colorful chart posted by Theoji, as aptly put by Chetak was meaningless without context etc.

This is not the first time, but it seems like it is a habit which I find odd. In the past too, me and many others, had pointed this out in quite clear terms. (for example a map of "radiation" without units/context put up by Theoji, turned out to be completely meaning less)

Even recently, I happen to notice, there was a "picture" of " neutron-cross-section area". Honestly it was one of the silliest thing I have seen. No actual nuclear physicist "looks" at those picture to find helpful design for NPP. The concept of "cross-section-area" is a quantum mechanical term for probability of neutron capture.... One uses s-matrix (or something similar) type theoretical reasoning or data analysis from NPP (or lab) to get those values..Never mind, many of these values have remained highly classified in the past ..(I am not going into details as some of the things are not easy to explain in layman's language..).

An analogy - One can have pretty pictures of Rahu and Ketu and Sun and Moon, and how they cause solar/lunar eclipse but it is no substitute for actual astronomical calculation using established scientific methods.

IMHO ...

Another pet peeve, again visible in many posts of Theoji, is either no unit or wrong units..I know Amit once pointed out Kg vs lb .. but I have seen, even simple units for energy or power put incorrectly or even illogically (I am not talking about typo's)...

Hope this helps.
Amber G.
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11013
Joined: 17 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Amber G. »

Sanku wrote:^^^
If sanskrit sholkas are used as a rhetorical device, an excuse to hide behind, when one gets a hiding (pun fully intended) on discussions of science and engineering, it merely degrades them.
Folks, I use Sanskrit because it is a beautiful language, and our shastras contains lot of wisdom and I don't believe Sanskit degrades science and engineering. Those who can understand Sanskrit, read what I have written.

Also, I value Sarsvati's gift to me and like to share the knowledge I have learned.

Of course, my few recent posts gave reference and links so one can directly go to the source and read / ignore / appreciate what is being said rather than disgracefully attacking the messenger. Trust me, Sanskrit language is quite old and it quoting of sloka's is not a grand conspiracy of nuclear lobby.
Many issues of nuclear science and engineering have already been demeaned to the level of joke by the mismatch between "scientific" predication and the reality, consistently -- It would be sad if other scholarship is also similarly made a joke.
.
Have to agree with that and according to data it is quite clear who the culprit is.
Note to this culprit - Not everything posted here is against Ehh-an-dee of the said culprit. This culprit ought to ignore what he does not understand rather than throw insults on other posters. If K40 in a banana can disintegrate 10-15 times a second, it is all because ब्रह्मा made the ब्रहमाण्ड like that, one does not have to take it personally.

Hope this helps.
ओम शांति!
Theo_Fidel

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Theo_Fidel »

BTW this whole Ji business is very unnecessary. No need to use it with me. :)

A,

I appreciate your slokhas though the relevance escapes me. When you do post please include an English translation so a wider Audience can partake, at least on this webside.

You need to take time to go back and read the context in which that chart was posted. It has been my constant observation that you don't like making things easy to see or understand. This is the reason you resort to your fall back Banana craziness again and again despite the silliness that it entails. I have pointed out how stupid a comparison it is and you still resort to it. There can be only one reason for this.....

I don't think Amit understood my numbers when I did it for the Uranium needed. Hence his confusion over the lbs/KG when I was measuring in tonnes. If you had bothered to read fully you would know that. In any case you have nothing to contribute. Not a shred of new info has come from you so what is your point exactly...

With respect to the BARC radiological spread map I pointed out that such a study has been done but is not in the public domain. Oddly you went all pointy eared yet again without reading the context. Seems to be a habit.

In future please read and comprehend posts fully before going off half-cocked.
sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10205
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by sum »

X-post:
sum wrote:Conspiracy by GoI to defame innocent Fishermen and UdayaKumar onlee : :(( :((

Spike in foreign funds for NGOs in Tamil Nadu
Call it a conspiracy theory, but if the Centre is to be believed, there could be a link between the hike in foreign funding for NGOs and protests against the Kudankulam plant.

Sources said foreign contribution to 12 NGOs in two districts — Tirunelveli, where the plant is based, and
neighbouring Tuticorin in Tamil Nadu — has increased sharply over the last four years, ever since agitations against the plant started. “These NGOs received over Rs 31 crore in 2010-11, with the foreign contribution to some doubling during the agitation period,” a senior government functionary said, adding that the money given is mostly for social causes such as education, health and sanitation.

The Tamil Nadu government was asked by the Centre to register cases against two of the 112 NGOs for diverting foreign funds under the provisions of the Foreign Contribution Regulatory Act. The role of 10 other NGOs in the Kudankulam agitation is also being probed.

The misuse of foreign funds for launching agitations against the government came into the spotlight when Prime Minister Manmohan Singh accused US non-profit organisations of funding the agitation against two reactors at the Kudankulam nuclear power plant.

“These NGOs… don’t appreciate our country’s need to increase energy supply,” Singh said.

The home ministry’s website shows that there has been an overall increase in foreign funding to NGOs in Tamil Nadu, mostly Christian organisations. While the Tuticorin Diocesan Association witnessed a 50% jump in foreign funding, the People’s Education for Action and Community Empowerment (an NGO headed by chief agitator Uday Kumar) received foreign aid of Rs 2.64 crore.

NGOs in Tamil Nadu received over Rs 2,500 crore in foreign funds between 2006-07 and 2010-11.
Image
chaanakya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9513
Joined: 09 Jan 2010 13:30

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by chaanakya »

Theo
It has been my constant observation that you don't like making things easy to see or understand.
It has been like this

गुणायन्ते दोषाः सुजनवदने दुर्जनमुखे
गुणा दोषायन्ते तदिदमपि नो विस्मयपदम् ।
महामेघः क्षारं पिबति कुरुते वारि मधुरं
फणी क्षीरं पीत्वा वमति गरलं दुःसहतरम् ॥

But then
आरभन्तेऽल्पमेवाज्ञाः कामं व्यग्रा भवन्ति च ।
महारम्भाः कृतधियः तिष्ठन्ति च निराकुलाः ॥

Seems so apt.

PS: if you want english one of this I can post.
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34828
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by chetak »

chaanakya wrote:Theo
It has been my constant observation that you don't like making things easy to see or understand.
It has been like this

गुणायन्ते दोषाः सुजनवदने दुर्जनमुखे
गुणा दोषायन्ते तदिदमपि नो विस्मयपदम् ।
महामेघः क्षारं पिबति कुरुते वारि मधुरं
फणी क्षीरं पीत्वा वमति गरलं दुःसहतरम् ॥

But then
आरभन्तेऽल्पमेवाज्ञाः कामं व्यग्रा भवन्ति च ।
महारम्भाः कृतधियः तिष्ठन्ति च निराकुलाः ॥

Seems so apt.

PS: if you want english one of this I can post.
Please do chaanakya ji.

There are many on the forum who will appreciate it. TIA.
Amber G.
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11013
Joined: 17 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Amber G. »

^^^ One can see, for example This or this
(Defects turn into virtues when they come from the good persons. Virtues turn into defects when they come from wicked. This is not an occasion to be surprised. The great cloud drinks salty water and makes rain water sweet. The serpent drinks milk, but emits intolerable poison.)
or
(The ignorant start only petty works and become agitated. The wise start great deeds with discretion and never get agitated.)

I'll say very apt. Too bad some are dissing not only great scientists but even slokas...

Meanwhile - As Amit requested, here is a extremely helpful presentation, very relevant to us.. Let me post it in next post.
Last edited by Amber G. on 05 Apr 2012 20:20, edited 1 time in total.
Amber G.
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11013
Joined: 17 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Amber G. »

For doctors, radiation oncologists, physicists, and general public ,there have been, some good write up about University of California's recent symposium, what we learned about radiation so that we do not get fooled by all the rubbish propagated..

This from UCSF news item:
http://www.ucsf.edu/news/2012/03/11716/ ... -chernobyl

The Youtube video is worth watching and keeping it for reference ..

(Sorry for images of banana in this too :) )

Another, reference, I highly recommend, I am re-posting for record.
(Please do watch it, if you have not watched it before, only a few minutes long)

Radiation effects: Myth versus Reality

Finally,
This
UCSF symposium item on physics.org

and a few other prestigious journals about the same event worth reading (use gogle, if interested)
Last edited by Amber G. on 05 Apr 2012 20:45, edited 1 time in total.
Theo_Fidel

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Theo_Fidel »

delete.

Rough day. Sigh! :P
Last edited by Theo_Fidel on 05 Apr 2012 20:33, edited 2 times in total.
Amber G.
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11013
Joined: 17 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Amber G. »

For Amit and others interested in science ...

Here is a nice presentation for general public from none other than
Mitsuyoshi Urashima MD, PhD, MPH (Chief of Molecular Epidemiology, Pediatric Oncologist)...top scientific person who coordinated much of the data gathering .
Radiation Contamination in Fukushima

By:Mitsuyoshi Urashima MD, PhD, MPH
Associate Professor, Jikei University School of Medicine
Tokyo, JAPAN

It may be a long document but has quite a bit of details, data and wisdom.
Amber G.
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11013
Joined: 17 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Post by Amber G. »

Also in the news..
Indian nuclear regulatory body (AERB) joins the multinational design evaluation programme (MDEP)
>>>AERB has become the 11th member of the MDEP, which pools resources of national regulators for reviewing new nuclear power reactor designs....
MDEP is a program through which national regulators are working to share technical data and standardize regulations and practices in order to avoid duplication of work. Participating in MDEP are Canada, China, Finland, France, Japan, South Africa, South Korea, Russia, the UK and the USA. The International Atomic Energy Agency also participates in portions of MDEP activities. A key concept throughout the work of MDEP is that national regulators retain sovereign authority for all licensing and regulatory decisions.
After "careful consideration of information provided by the AERB concerning its role and duties as well as India's nuclear regulatory framework," the AERB has now been accepted as the first new member in MDEP since it was established in 2006. ...

Also in the news, sorry if already posted:
Nuclear Submarine INS Chakra commissioned into Indian Navy
Post Reply