Indian Army : News and Discussion

[Pranav]

Supreme Court asked to stop Bikram Singh from taking over as army chief - http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/supre ... eststories

The PIL has been filed by a group of retired officers and bureaucrats headed by Admiral Laxminarayan Ramdas, who retired as the navy chief.

Is this a serious petition or is it a psy-op?

Apparently former CEC Gopalswami is one of the petitioners.

[nelson]

Tidbits on TATRA. Admins may move these to appropriate thread where deemed fit.

Where is TATRA SIPOX?

Inside story TATRA-BEML

BEML lies

Please go through the above links and make your own conclusion. My inferences from what has unfolded and what I found from thess links are:-

1. TATRA SIPOX UK is no subsidiary of TATRA a.s. Czech Republic as claimed by Mr Ravi Rishi. As per statement of TATRA a.s., Mr Ravi Rishi is a minority stakeholder TATRA a.s., which simply means that he has invested in the company. If I have a few shares of the Most Valuable Co, my firm will not become a subsidiary of Most Valuable Co.

2. TATRA a.s. the OEM for at least part of TATRA vehicles' CKD kits have denied any relation with Indian Army. This along with 1. above, proves that TATRA SIPOX is a 'middleman' in all senses of the word. The same is in violation of extant rules in Defence Procurement.

3. The presence of middleman could not have been possible without active connivance of politicians, bureaucrats in MoD and 'rogue elements' in the Army & outside. CBI investigation should in due course reveal the same. A regime change in the mean time will give fillip to the investigation.

[gakakkad]

Even a cursory perusal of the Farticle reveals inconsistencies . The whole thing is beyond preposterous .

1) If he wanted to stage a coup d'etat he could have used the troops stationed in delhi.. Need not have brought them from the south western command ,
2) Do they seriously needed para troopers to stage a coup ?
3) why is it a big deal that the army passed through delhi.. nowhere is it written that army cannot come close to delhi..

it is either an ISI plant .. or a con party plant .. or both..

Anyway one must do an RTI application and enquire if any netas soiled their dhotis that night ..

[nelson]

With regard to TATRA Sipox, the regulatory filings of Global Vectra Helicorp one of the group companies of Vectra Group has no mention or details of TATRA SIPOX as one of its sister companies.

The group has/had Lt Gen retd Saigal as its Chairman and Managing Director. Lt Gen retd Saigal joined the Vectra Group of Cos right after his retirement as Master General of Ordnance in 2001, the branch responsible for procurement, holding and distribution of all vehicles, weapon systems, ordnance and other warlike stores of the Indian army.

Link to draft red herring prospectus for the Public Offering in 2006 is here.

http://www.sebi.gov.in/dp/globaldraft.pdf

[AdityaM]

Is Ministry denying that forces were moved close to delhi (for what ever reason)
or are they denying that they panicked and didnt trust the army?

[gakakkad]

Is Ministry denying that forces were moved close to delhi (for what ever reason)
or are they denying that they panicked and didnt trust the army?

they deny having mistrusted the Army.. per some news article , some top MOD baboon was in Indonesia and was recalled ASAP . So I don't believe that they did not soil their undies .

[ramana]

The INC fears of a military coup are stoked by UK. Since the begining they fed ideas to INC stalwarts and made them keep the military at a distance. If one digs deep (in case of Shekar Dupatta, no need for that as he is shallow!) you will find the usual chatterati in thinks tanks fed this nonsense to Ind Exp.

A couple of years from now Uneven Cohen will have a seminar in Califrona and feed these turds burgers and beer and they will come out with how narrow the coup was and GOI should put in more measures for civilian control.

I wouldn't be surprised if the NPA community is behind this story for two reasons:

1) Show equal,equal with TSP. Despite the modernity and economic prowess, India is no different than TSP.
2) With dangers of eminent coup, India should give up nukes in interests of world peace!

There will be joint farticle by Krapon and Uneven with Perky soon.

------------
Aditya_M, They are denying that there were any chances of a coup. They are not denying that the para brigade elements were moved.

I think its pure case of Malice in Blunderland on part of Shekar Dupatta to stir the pot and settle old grudges. Maybe he didn't get his quota of liquor from the Army canteen which he was used to under previous chiefs.

[chackojoseph]

Please go through the above links and make your own conclusion. My inferences from what has unfolded and what I found from thess links are:-

1. TATRA SIPOX UK is no subsidiary of TATRA a.s. Czech Republic as claimed by Mr Ravi Rishi. As per statement of TATRA a.s., Mr Ravi Rishi is a minority stakeholder TATRA a.s., which simply means that he has invested in the company. If I have a few shares of the Most Valuable Co, my firm will not become a subsidiary of Most Valuable Co.

2. TATRA a.s. the OEM for at least part of TATRA vehicles' CKD kits have denied any relation with Indian Army. This along with 1. above, proves that TATRA SIPOX is a 'middleman' in all senses of the word. The same is in violation of extant rules in Defence Procurement.

3. The presence of middleman could not have been possible without active connivance of politicians, bureaucrats in MoD and 'rogue elements' in the Army & outside. CBI investigation should in due course reveal the same. A regime change in the mean time will give fillip to the investigation.

I have read those mate. However, I am struck on "acts as a" Subsidiary.

See, one could have a pact with Mercedes directly, but in say UAE or London or some other place, the deal flows through the local/appointed/designated seller. So, Sipox appears to be a designated company. So technically, the flow of legality must be right. Rishi being a share holder/ board member, he must be having a special marketing rights.

By the middle man term, Omnipol, rosoboronexport etc are middle men.

I am not discounting any bribes. Just putting my perspective.

[Lalmohan]

ramana - what are you basing your conclusion on? there is very little coverage of this issue in the international press

[Surya]

shekhar is a chela of uneven after all

[ramana]

Surya has said it. Besides Shekhar Dupatta has track record of pushing uncle's agenda.

Do a favor. Google all his op-eds in Ind Exp and collate them and highlight all his ideas only and see what conclusion you can come up with.
He also has Stockholm Syndrome of Partition and thinks rest of India is out to destroy Punjab both sides!
Totally unfit for the role he has.
He should be editor of a National Enquirer(US based) type of paper. Maybe Blitz.

DNA article:

Coup report ridiculous

I would say scurrilous!!!

Coup report is ridiculous, irresponsible, say ex-army chiefsPublished: Wednesday, Apr 4, 2012, 20:21 IST
Place: New Delhi | Agency: IANS

"Ridiculous," "irresponsible", "contemptible" and "mischief" were the common refrain of several former armed forces chiefs, senior officials and strategic analysts on the sensational media report in Delhi on Wednesday suggesting that there was an army coup bid based on movement of two key battalions to the national capital in January.

First to call it "ridiculous" was former army chief General Ved Prakash Malik, who headed the 1.13-million strong world's second largest standing army during the 1999 Kargil war with Pakistan.

"I think it is a ridiculous report and that's all that I can say," Malik said over the phone from his Panchkula residence near Chandigarh.

The Indian Express, in a front page report on Wednesday, said the Hisar-based Mechanised Infantry unit and elements from the airborne 50 Para Brigade in Agra moved towards the capital on the night of January 16, without following the standard operating procedure of informing the defence ministry in advance.

The report said since this happened around the time when Gen. Singh was waging a judicial battle against the government over his age row, it created unease and suspicion in Delhi. But the paper left it short of calling it a coup bid.

"It (the report) seems like somebody's mischief," Malik said, adding that he "can't keep guessing" who was playing the mischief or why it was being played.

He, however, believes that the troop movement was a routine training exercise and there was no need for notifying the defence ministry on such minor movement of units.

His sentiment was shared by a former defence secretary who is regarded quite well by the government for his experience and knowledge on matters of military.

"We have to see the basics of the report. The inferences drawn from it seem ridiculous. That's about it," said the former bureaucrat who did not want to be identified.

"Knowledgeable people will never give credence to such kind of inferences. There is not a lot to be said on this. I do not see any logic in the report... for people in the armed forces would never even dream of making such an attempt," he said.

The most stinging criticism of the report already dubbed "alarmist" by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and "baseless" by Defence Minister AK Antony came from former Indian Navy chief Admiral Arun Prakash.

"It is a very irresponsible piece of journalism by a senior editor, especially at a juncture when the situation is tense and uncertain. I am wondering what purposes does this report serve. It is a very contemptible piece of writing," Prakash said over phone from Goa.

Asked what he thought of the army units moving towards Delhi without notice, Prakash said units have their own training schedules and there was no need to notify movements of such small units to anybody except the army formations and the headquarters.

"This is about the Indian Army and not the Pakistan Army, right? Should we be worrying about Indian Army units moving within the country?" he asked.

Former Indian Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal SP Tyagi though acknowledged that the media report was correct to the extent that there were indeed some army unit movements.

However, the report is "incorrect as far as the nefarious purposes of the army units' movement is concerned", Tyagi said in Delhi.

"My God, it is so ridiculous that I even hate to talk about it. These kind of army unit movements will continue as long as the nation has an army. But two and two do not make an eight. The army, the defence secretary, the defence minister and the prime minister say the report is bunkum. Who else needs to say that?" he said.

"By claiming that defence secretary (Shashi Kant Sharma) cut short his Malaysia visit and returned to Delhi due to these army units' movement is like claiming two and two is now sixteen," he said.

Tyagi said he understands well that journalists see stories in everything. "They got their story right as far as the movements of units are concerned, but this inference from those movements is surely in doubt," he added.

Former Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses (IDSA) director C Uday Bhaskar, a reputed strategic analyst, said he was "intrigued, disappointed and very concerned" at the way the report had presented the army movement.

"The nuance and innuendoes, as though there was an attempted coup or there was any sort of an intimidation, is invalid," Bhaskar said.

Noting that it was a matter of national security, the former navy officer said the report's technical details of just two battalions moving was "just not backing" the suggestion of a coup attempt.

"Already, the civilian-military relations need a lot of repair. Indian military is the most professional and apolitical force in the world and the report doesn't do any good to the Indian media's credibility," he said.

OK will go out on a limb. Ind Exp was floating a trial balloon to check the mood of the country to pacify the outside powers(US) that a coup is not on the cards.

Those slapgate guys need to have a session with SG and his trio of reporters.

[Mihir]

Lt. Gen Panag tweets:

Never heard of permission to be taken 4 routine Trg movement of Army units.I was at Hissar as GOC.Never asked anyone.1/2

2/2 Only Banana Republics doubt their AFs.

[nelson]

...
See, one could have a pact with Mercedes directly, but in say UAE or London or some other place, the deal flows through the local/appointed/designated seller. So, Sipox appears to be a designated company. So technically, the flow of legality must be right. Rishi being a share holder/ board member, he must be having a special marketing rights.

By the middle man term, Omnipol, rosoboronexport etc are middle men.

...

I had requested you to read the Defence Procurement Procedures. Please read it and make a distinction between Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs)/ Authorised Vendors/ Govt Sponsored Export Agencies.

TATRA a.s is the OEM - I think there is no doubt on it.

Vectra Group is the Authorised Vendor in India as per TATRA a.s, and Vectra Group websites.

TATRA Sipox - ?
Is it an OEM - No
Govt Sponsored Export Agency - No
Authorised Vendor - In the absence of any proof, and from details available on website of TATRA a.s & their press release, i am inclined to say no.

When TATRA Sipox is none of the above, it has no role to play as defined in the DPM except that of a middleman.

[ramana]

Philip, Taking a step backwards this AKA vs VKS spat could be a manufactured CBM to assure US that GOI won't take advantage of any instability in TSP as it deleverages or de-nationizes.

Essentially no Cold or even Warm Start due to equipment deficiencies
Even if it gets started will run out of steam due to lack of ammo and inventory
Officer cadre demoralized with age fiasco
Cant even seek redress from legal system which advices to bend with the wind!
Civil-Military relations worse than in Lord Curzon's time
With big babu MMS in charge every chaprasi/peon in MoD orders (pees) the military
GOI stuck in sundry scams big to small
Can't buy even stapler without wondering how much was the bribe!

[Ankit Desai]

I am watching a show on NDTV Prime Time with Raveesh Kumar. Previous IB head Mr Bhagat? is there, Raveesh asked about role of IB in it and asked why did IB raised flag when some army movement happened in Hissar.

Bhagat initially passed that question and asked credibility of report by asking that if Defense Sec. was called from Malaysia how can he be reached that fast, to be briefed, opened his office and summon DGMO ? Bhagat denied to give detail of how IB function in general and in this particular situation though. Which is obvious !

I also saw Shekher Gupta's interview.

What I can say is we on BRF and back home in India are blowing issue unnecessary to much. Indian Express reported the issue as movement of MoD, Defense Sec as well the way Delhi Police acted is not usual. Army was doing his routine exercise.

I think this is just continuation of current VKS saga. Sense of in-security in MoD and gap of communication between IA and MoD are causing niggles.

Statement by AKA is welcome statement.

-Ankit

[Sushupti]

Senior minister Sutradhar of coup report?

Sources involved in tracking sensitive developments claim that a senior minister of the UPA government was the mastermind of the April 4 front page item in a daily newspaper about a suspected coup attempt. The sources claim that the minister is connected - through his close relative - with the defense procurement lobbies gunning for Chief of Army Staff General V K Singh,and that the decision to "trick the newspaper into running a baseless report was to drain away support for General Singh within the political class",who could be expected to unite against any effort at creating a Pakistan-style situation in India. However,the minister in question appears to have miscalculated the response of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Defense Minister to the report."The minister assumed that both would decline comment on the report, in view of their strained relations with the Army chief, but instead both came out foursquare against the newspaper.This surprised both the minister as well as journalists who relied on him for the initial information," a source claimed.

Others say that a close relative of the minister in question has been "regularly meeting with arms merchants and their lobbyists,including on his many visits abroad".They say that the Intelligence Bureau seems clueless about such activities,as "its net does not cover the influential people in question". Those connected with national security say that "the net of arms merchants is very wide, with Dubai,London and Bangkok being the three locations where they usually wine,dine and otherwise entertain VVIPs from India". In order to ensure protection for their operations,a lot of which involves dubious money transfers, such agencies and individuals "usually function as auxiliaries of foreign intelligence agencies, and are told to ferret out sensitive and secret information from their contacts". These sources claim that "non-declared units of selected NATO member country intelligence agencies (especially one with a huge presence in the defense procurement market in India ) regularly liase with lobbyists and employees of arms manufacturers,and use them for operations such as honeytrapping".In such a context,"their link with relatives of ministers is a worry."

According to these sources,the minister in question "is well-known to senior journalistic levels of the publication" that ran the coup report. A military source was "surprised that the newspaper in question ran such a story,in view of the high level of competence of its senior staff", but added that " a senior minister being the source of the initial information would explain their belief in the truth of the report". Other military sources warned that the "objective behind the leak was not merely to discredit the Chief but to paralyse the army in its training function". Already, procurements have slowed to dangerous levels because of repeated - and often accurate - claims of graft. Should the military's freedom to undertake routine training exercises of the sort described in the report get curtailed" because of imaginary fears of a coup, "the military would very soon lose its fighting edge". Military sources claim that even some civilian officials "are linked to arms lobbyists and through them to foreign intelligence agencies",and that these "want to take away even the little freedom of action that is left with the military" since the Nehru-era policy of removing of discretion from the uniformed services to the civilian side. While no one accuses the senior minister of wanting to degrade the capabilities of the army, these sources say that he has perhaps unwittingly "played into the hands of certain arms lobbyists who are salivating not only at the prospect of garnering huge army orders during the balance of the UPA's term in office" but "who seek to weaken the training function of the army and thereby render the force less effective against the sort of challenges that it is facing in Kashmir and other threatres."

Army sources say that "the strong rebuttal by the PM and the RM (Raksha or Defense Minister) has cheered those in the service who were unhappy at the way the Chief is being treated". However,this total denial of the news report would have come as a shock to friends and admirers of the senior minister in the newspaper,who took his conclusion that a coup was being planned at face value,and decided to run a report that took up the entire front page with an imaginary scenario that has inadvertently purveyed the falsehood that the Indian army is going the way of its Pakistan counterpart,and that General Singh is itching to do a Musharraf to Manmohan Singh's Nawaz Sharif.

http://www.sunday-guardian.com/investig ... gV.twitter

[Sanju]

^Are they referring to PC??

[chackojoseph]

I had requested you to read the Defence Procurement Procedures. Please read it and make a distinction between Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs)/ Authorised Vendors/ Govt Sponsored Export Agencies.

Authorised Vendor - In the absence of any proof, and from details available on website of TATRA a.s & their press release, i am inclined to say no.

Ok, that's the word I was looking for. Authorised vendor.

Lets wait and see. The CBI will get through this.

[Roperia]

Here we go Indian Civilian-Military Distrust is Nothing New I find these Indian born "experts" living in the west the most ridiculous.

[Pranav]

Senior minister Sutradhar of coup report?

The senior minister must be sacked to prevent a loss of confidence of the forces in the political leadership.

[Sanku]

Senior minister Sutradhar of coup report?

The senior minister must be sacked to prevent a loss of confidence of the forces in the political leadership.

and pigs will fly.

[Pranav]

^Are they referring to PC??

Maybe. As per Swamy, Karthik PC, Tejinder Singh and some Major Hooda, relative of Haryana CM act as a pack.

[abhishek_sharma]

The Indian Express' stands by the report.

[anjan]

nothing like a good fat lie about a potential coup leaked by our babus to keep them as lords of the universe sure a Delhi cop is going to stop a mech unit at a checkpoint

No, Delhi pandu will let them go after receiving Rs 500 "welfare-fund" at the checkpoint.
I just imagined the whole scene, and cannot stop laughing.

I know that was not the implication here but I thought I should put in a word for the poor pandus. A large number of them might be corrupt but they're not anti-national by any stretch. I only say this because it could be construed that way and I think always pitting the Army and the Police in the public space is unhelpful and mostly not true anyway. We're all on the same side. FWIW I'd imagine the cops would have organized traffic at the request of the CO.

The report is stupid in so many ways it boggles the mind. What stopped them from simply using the units from the R-day parade and just issuing out ammunition? I wonder if the leaks are deliberately preparing ground. Are we slated for an attack in the near future?

[hnair]

Might be that gentleman (who rather aptly, looks like Peter Pettigrew of Harry Potter) who wants to censor the internet.

That editor should be prosecuted for defamation of the units he besmirched as well as inciting unrest in the Army/Civil against a serving CoAS. It does directly impact national security if the CoAS is being tarnished without reason.

(This seems a VERY bad phase - hope those Gulfstreams and UAVs are busy flying around the borders)

[ShauryaT]

I am wondering, with the current state of affairs and status of our polity, IF a military coup did happen, how many here would support it.

No intention to start a rumor and suggest anything, just trying to understand the thought process of various people here.

[abhishek_sharma]

There is no need for such a poll.

[anjan]

I am wondering, with the current state of affairs and status of our polity, IF a military coup did happen, how many here would support it.

No intention to start a rumor and suggest anything, just trying to understand the thought process of various people here.

The Indian Army can find great support for a coup as long as it does not actually do a coup. ie. We respect them precisely for they don't do.

Even with all the muck flying around you'd be hard pressed to find any operational commanders who'll actually obey orders for a coup. You'd need an Army commander and none of them would do it. That is the long and short of it.

[johneeG]

Indian Media is just taught wrong fundamentals right from their Bachelors program. Their syllabus is all Left centric books to fight for the weak and to target the strong. This time the strong one is the Army. If Advani or NaMo had been in a yatra they would have targeted them. Army is just at the wrong place at wrong time.
I hope the Army PR takes the undytv,shakeitdaddy to task.

If the media were to truly fight for the weak(poor/victims) and target the strong(rich/powerful), then I think they would have had several fans. Infact, this is one aspect of the so-called leftist ideology that I can agree with: help the poor against the rich. But, generally, this aspect is just rhetorical. The truth is that the poor become real victims in leftist governed places(ex: USSR, China, Naxal areas,...etc). Because the leftist ideology provides a justifiable excuse(of fighting for the poor) to usurp power(absolute dictatorship). And once the power is acquired, like everybody else, the power is used to perpetuate a monopoly on the power. For this, the rich and elite are co-opted or eliminated. But the poor, they become eternal victims. They are literally treated as slaves.

As far as media is concerned, they tend to lick up and kick down. In most countries, the media is in cahoots with elite power-brokers and power-centers (internally and externally). Here again, the people are the ultimate victims because they are fed wrong/biased/insufficient information and the people's judgement gets clouded. The media is used as a tool to control the people. In a democracy, this can have seriously implications. Because if the people are not properly informed, then their judgements(votes) will be wrong which means that the elected representatives(and the newly formed Govt) would be corrupt/inefficient/imbeciles.

India media seems to have imbibed a strange derision and hatred towards majority community of India. I don't know the exact reason for this. Maybe the leftist leaning is responsible for such thinking. Maybe the majority community(the sheer numbers) are seen as a threat to the power-centers who sponsor the media. Maybe a combination of both factors. Infact, one can say that the media in India displays a strange behaviour: it has contempt for everything that is Indian(culture, product, attire, values,...whatever) and celebrates everything that is foreign.(Hakimullah Shiv may have a field day with analyzing what is the reason for such feelings of inadequacy). To me, it seems to be a relic of colonialism. This media behaviour has been slowly imbibed by the educated Indians. And from them, it is transmitted to rural Indians. In a way, it is a mental slavery and cultural slavery which is being transmitted from the very top of Indian power structure.

So, the media dislikes Advani or NaMo because(and as long as), they stand with(and for) majority community or Indian indigenous products(culture, materials, attires, ...etc). If and when, Advani or NaMo or whoever goes against majority community or India, they will be celebrated. A Roy is a prime example of this phenomenon.

In this particular case, I think the Army is not the strong party. It is the weaker party. So, the media can go against them without any fear of repercussions. On the contrary, if the media started investigating the source of the corruptions, the money-trail, demanding responsibility and accountability from the Govt(and politicians in general), ...etc; then the media would have truly gone against the strong party(and would have done a huge favor to India/people/poor).

[Brando]

I am wondering, with the current state of affairs and status of our polity, IF a military coup did happen, how many here would support it.

I would NEVER support anybody in a uniform running Delhi. I doubt many people in India would want some desi Mushraff clone swaggering up and down Parliament House.

It would require a LARGE "pair" to claim with a straight face that they can manage 1 billion rancorous Indians when managing the Army of 1 odd million is a handful.

[Dilbu]

nothing like a good fat lie about a potential coup leaked by our babus to keep them as lords of the universe

sure a Delhi cop is going to stop a mech unit at a checkpoint

No, Delhi pandu will let them go after receiving Rs 500 "welfare-fund" at the checkpoint.
I just imagined the whole scene, and cannot stop laughing.

Also how is slowing down traffic on highway going to help? Mechanised infantrymen are driving Maruti 800s and cannot get off the road?

[Pranav]

I am wondering, with the current state of affairs and status of our polity, IF a military coup did happen, how many here would support it.

As per Dr. Subramanian Swamy some 60 seats in the last Lok Sabha elections were swung using EVMs.

If that's the case, then the coup has already happened.

[Roperia]

A very ugly and dangerous attempt by Indian Express to discredit Indian Army and its chief

Was Indian Express influenced by arm's lobby?

Indian Express shud not be let off without a thorough investigation of their motives and agenda. Who's agenda are they pursuing?

Arvind Kejriwal

[Muppalla]

Here are some of the Tweets by a person named Akhilesh Mishra

1. There is one more theory as to why Shekhar Gupta published the #coup story the way he did - on instructions from American master & PMO.
2. This theory surmises that Europeans do not sell arms to likely #coup facing countries. Thus France could refuse to sell Rafale to India.
3. Why would US & PMO sponsor the #coup story by Shekhar Gupta in IE - because both are cut up that F16/F18 by Americans did not go through.
4. So basically, if France does not sell Rafale to India, we will be left with no choice but to re-tender & in this round US could make it.
5. Now the famous think tankis from Takshashila had been lobbying for months for India to go with US fighters & not European ones.
6. Therefore, amongt the very few who have come to defence of Shekhar Gupta story - surprise, surprise-there is the famous Takshashila tanki
7. So if you believe this theory-that US/PMO sponsored Shekhar Gupta story to nix Rafale deal, then it fits in with why tankis supporting IE
8. One way to know real motive of Shekhar Gupta story is to check if everyone who wanted us to buy US jets is defending IE story?
9. Till now, as far as I have counted, everyone who was FOR India buying US jets overiding all other considerations is supporting IE story.
10. So Shekhar Gupta is the favourite media boy of Gen J.J. Singh. Plus a PMO stooge. Any wonder #coup story front paged in IE?

1. Some facts on #coup story - Gen J.J. Singh has given only one televised interview post retirement. It was to Shekhar Gupta in WTK on NDTV
2. Shekhar Gupta in that WTK interview had introduced Gen J.J. Singh as one of the finest ever - a "General's General" were his exact words.
3. Now Gen J.J. Singh is the geneteman who engineered the entire age row fracas of Gen. V.K. Singh to position Gen B.K. Singh as future COAS
4. Gen V.K. Singh has recently blamed Gen JJ Singh directly for engineering the age row controversy so as to position his favourite as COAS.
5. Then Gen J.J. Singh had refused to comment. Has he responded now through his favourite media boy and front page story?

1. There are times when we lambast those with whom we disagree. But anyone who believes the #coup story must be exiled to Popo Islands.
2. A #coup works in Pak because EVERY corps commander supports the it. In India, would Gen Bikram Singh have supported it Gen V.K. Singh?
3. Would Gen Bikram Singh Chief of Eastern Command and next COAS, for example, have supported Gen V.K. Singh in his #coup attempt?
4. Theory of #coup is premised on the fact that men in those two divisions that moved were extra loyal to COAS.Else, why would he need them?
5. If the commander of Delhi unit of Army was not with Gen Singh, (thus his need for 2 divisions from outside), would his #coup have worked?
6. At any time there are 12,000 troops in Delhi. During Jan 2012. There were 30,000 duet to Army Day / Republic Day. Why need more troops?
7. If Gen V.K. Singh was planning a #coup would anyone else have supported him? What good is a #coup when no corps commander supports you?

[Gaur]

I am wondering, with the current state of affairs and status of our polity, IF a military coup did happen, how many here would support it.

No intention to start a rumor and suggest anything, just trying to understand the thought process of various people here.

I mean no disrespect but this is not even something worth discussing about. I hope that the forum members won't take this (hopefully unintentional) bait.

[ramana]

ShauryaT, No need for that question. Please folks no more follow-up on that.

ramana

[ramana]

Here we go Indian Civilian-Military Distrust is Nothing New I find these Indian born "experts" living in the west the most ridiculous.

Interesting info not corroborated in Mathai's tell all book

In the 1950s, rumor of a coup – compounded by Gen. Ayub Khan’s takeover in Pakistan – was one factor that prompted the elevation of Krishna Menon, a loyalist of Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru, to the position of defense minister. The Nehru government and its successors viewed military-to-military ties, particularly with the U.S., with great suspicion.

There are plenty of other examples of alarmism from the government about military intentions, most of them demonstrating not much more than civilian neuroses.

Stephen Cohen, a South Asia expert at the Brookings Institution, has noted that senior intelligence officials claimed to have detected at least three coup plots by generals in recent years, including one supposedly by General K. Sundarji in 1987.

“There is no credible evidence of such plots,” Mr. Cohen writes, “but insecure politicians and bureaucrats, many of whom have a stereotyped image of the military, listen to these warnings.”

Wah wah what psy-ops!
Now a Cohen baccha quotes Cohen! No need for the great master to write as he has his chelas to do the needful.
There is Latin phrase: "Lapsis Calami, Suggesto Falsi!"
Slip of the tongue and false suggestions.

So the TSP coup in 1957 prompted JLN to promote Krishna Menon the most un-Defence Minister of India.

All TSP had to do to make Chacha self-flaggelate would have been to do one more coup and JLN would have disbanded the Army.

[ramana]

NVS writes in NewsInsight:

Media putsch

Media putsch
Motivated campaigns against the army chief must end, says N.V.Subramanian.

4 April 2012: It is becoming clearer that elements with vested interests and corrupt intentions are out to destroy the image of General V.K.Singh before his retirement. The aim appears to be to derail the Tatra investigations taken up at his behest and his general exertions to cleanse the army.

Today's frontpage story in The Indian Express is aimed towards that end by whoever leaked some sensational details of military movements. The piece tries to draw the inference that a coup was in the making coinciding with the army chief's petition to the Supreme Court about the age row. The inference would be idiotic weren't it so dangerously speculative.

Thankfully, prime minister Manmohan Singh took no time to deny the story and called it "alarmist". Defense minister A.K.Anthony went further and said the piece was "baseless" and spoke of the army glowingly as a bulwark of India's constitutional democracy. The same newspaper carried a piece about the bugging of Anthony's phone with the insinuation that the army chief was behind it. The report was denied. The trend is clear. In an environment of deteriorated civil-military relations, vested interests, including crooked arms dealers and lobbies, are playing one side against another.

It is in the supreme interest of the country and for the good health of government that civil-military relations are repaired, and the political class as a whole must assure the armed forces that their interests and honour will be protected and totally secured. After this, ignorant calls such as from politicians and sundry commentators for the sacking of the army chief must stop.

Coup fears dogged India especially following Ayub Khan's putsch in neighbouring Pakistan. Those fears found worse expression when Jawaharlal Nehru died in 1964 and the then army chief, General J.N.Chaudhury, ordered an extra brigade to provide bundobast during the funeral. Chaudhury didn't want a repeat of the chaos during Gandhi's last rites when the viceroy and his party threatened to get pushed into the flaming pyre by the multitudes. For all his efforts, Chaudhury was kept under surveillance although his explanation was accepted.

Writing about it in a 1997 letter to The Independent of London, Neville Maxwell said, "…Indian politicians have never fully shared Western faith that the Indian Army will never assume a political role -- indeed, they have sometimes been quite paranoiac in their fear of the generals". Much earlier, speaking to a British high commissioner in India, General Chaudhury had articulated why a military coup was improbable and impracticable in the Indian context, and it is worth recalling in these troubled times.

Chaudhury spoke of the "deep-rooted respect for constitutional government at all levels in the country", which included the army. Then he said that "the size of India and the degree of decentralisation of its government machinery" was a deterrent against a coup. It would be, General Chaudhury argued, "administratively and operationally impracticable for the Army to seize power from both the Union and the state governments in a single operation". India is bigger in government and even more unwieldy forty-seven years after General Chaudhury spoke.

Chaudhury also noted the heterogeneous composition of the army that would militate against a coup attempt. There would be opposition to it within the army. "It would place a critical strain on the loyalty of the Army, since state loyalties and rivalries are a real factor in the Army," Chaudhury said. A putschist commander would find his hands tied and face a snowballing civil war. It remains so. And lest it be argued that General Chaudhury was revealing himself by even discussing this matter, it should be told he was grilled on the subject previously by defense minister Y.B.Chavan.

Since independence, the armed forces have remained resolutely apolitical. They are meant for territorial defense, with little to no power projection intents, and that is how it stays. Of course several chiefs, given their background, Sandhurst training, etc, have been contemptuous of politicians, but nevertheless respected their preeminence in the civil supremacy paradigm. So it continues to this day, although the stature of the forces has been steadily devalued by the political-bureaucratic establishment.

Yet, the armed forces enjoy the highest respect and credibility with India public opinion. The present denigration of the army chief, therefore, won't be tolerated. There can be two opinions on whether he should have so obsessed with the age issue. But of his integrity and of his generalship, there can be no doubt. Crooked media attempts to run down the chief must end, because they have damaged the media, while causing bigger destruction to the institution of the military.

In the final analysis, the military guarantees the security and independence of India. Nothing should be done that weakens the military.

So what made Shekhar Gupta write that hack piece? And write a confrimatory piece next day?

[Lalmohan]

I am wondering, with the current state of affairs and status of our polity, IF a military coup did happen, how many here would support it.
.

absolutely not

[ramana]

Lalmohan whats the chatter in your area?