Indian Army : News and Discussion

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 05 Apr 2012 02:12

Maroof Raza said on TIMES NOW's The Newshour debate that less than thousand troops were part of the so called movement and there are around 30,000 personnel stationed in Delhi at any given time and coups are rarely carried out by mechanised infantry.

Shekhar Gupta has discredited himself by putting such a ridiculous story on his front page. He is also the anchor person of NDTV's Walk The Talk program.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 05 Apr 2012 02:13

a few years ago, i recall meeting someone quite high up in the american civil-military set up, who remarked to me - almost incredulously - 'man your indian army sure does believe in democracy and staying in the barracks!'

ramana - zero chat i am aware of, like i said, this story is not getting any airtime

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Apr 2012 02:30

Arun, The real question is why did Shekhar Gupta do this? Who gave him the backing to publish the rot? What made him do this?

Thanks LM.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 05 Apr 2012 02:40

ramana wrote:Arun, The real question is why did Shekhar Gupta do this? Who gave him the backing to publish the rot? What made him do this?

Thanks LM.

He is corrupt and he serves the corrupted. Who they are specifically will sooner or later come out into the open as well. This gov will not survive for long.

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 05 Apr 2012 02:45

ramana wrote:Arun, The real question is why did Shekhar Gupta do this? Who gave him the backing to publish the rot? What made him do this?

Thanks LM.

Ramana sir,

I am checking how the entire English media covered this story.

Both the shows on NDTV approached the whole matter by concentrating on the red herring - Civil military relations.

The best so far has been the discussion on Times Now - the panelists have debunked that story by proving that something like this is operationally not feasible. To support this point the former army commander says - there are six independent army commands in India and the Chief can't bypass the army commanders to order troop movements. (I'm yet to watch Rajdeep Sardesai's show)

Debate: Scoop story flawed?-1
Debate: Scoop story flawed?-2
Debate: Scoop story flawed?-3

Some panelists hint that there is a concerted effort by a group (possibly made of arms lobbies, bureaucrats and politicians) to discredit the Chief. They do not like him since he is cracking down on the corruption which is sadly this group's way of life. The only mistake this time was they went overboard and miscalculated how much nonsense the people of India are willing to buy.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Apr 2012 02:51

So some good out of this is there are checks and balances in the system besides the military is not interested which is the best CBM.
Arun, Keep with it. Need ot get to bottom of why SG printed this calumny.

Also wonder why the IB was not set out to find out the real story of this fake coup?
Or they might be embarrassed of its origins?

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 05 Apr 2012 03:40

ramana wrote:Arun, The real question is why did Shekhar Gupta do this? Who gave him the backing to publish the rot? What made him do this?

Few things to note about the events outside India at this time.
The pressure on Pakistan and the bounty on Hafiz Saeed has put the PA on alert. To make sure that India is preoccupied and an army which is under scanner for corruption suits the power center since this will give Indian an excuse that it is not watching Pakistan.

China is also slowly moving up its defense readiness in the border areas and may make the first move. Indian political - occupation and controversy over civil mil relations are good to keep other countries relaxed. Induction of the SSN today may have alerted the panda and its preparedness.

anjan · Post by **anjan** » 05 Apr 2012 03:42

Dilbu wrote:Also how is slowing down traffic on highway going to help? Mechanised infantrymen are driving Maruti 800s and cannot get off the road?

Because apparently they were planning a coup while staying on their tank transporters. Shekhar Gupta probably thinks they are force multipliers.

I have to say props to AKA for rubbishing the story in such strong terms. Either it's blind panic on the part of the corrupt or morale is deliberately being lowered for some other purpose.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 05 Apr 2012 03:51

Over the past decade, Shekhar Gupta seems to have no raisin dieter other than to warm RAPE balls by breathing gently on it. Earlier it was his "we will take care of BJP" asinine comment to RAPEs and now this..... as if he is oblivious of India being a democracy with hard fought elections.

What has he got against Indian democracy that he feels to do this? He want to convince his omlette-providers that we are equal onleee?

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 05 Apr 2012 03:59

I hope this has strong negatives for Shekhar Gupta, more than just being the 'laughing stock'. He was also the primary 'Musharraff Bhakt' at the Agra summit.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 05 Apr 2012 04:12

As suspected here few years ago ,the assault on the national security from within has started. I am afraid , its going to get ulglier unless guilty behind the whole drama are exposed and tried in court of law as well in public. This bizarre episode and the coincident with the shutting up of Anti nuclear power Missionaries in Tamilnadu and the arrival of Akula is indeed strange. As they say follow the money trail, national security now demands exposing this corrupt lobby and its foreign masters and the money involved in it .
If Hazzam Sethi thinks that Poaqs can now squeeze concessions from MMS , he might as well buy the bridge i am selling on Astroid 72p .The whole tamasha might end up plus by strengthing of the instituons.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Apr 2012 04:34

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Apr 2012 04:44

Ramana,a long post unfortunately was lost due to system failure.I'll repost the basics.Ckd out some of it with sources inside the force.

Here is a maverick viewpoint,perhaps not so maverick after all and you have put superbly the finger on the spot.
Who benefits? That is the question....

Gen.VKS,the "Saint",etc. are mere pawns on the chessboard.The pieces think that they are making their own moves,but the moves have already been anticipated and programmed and they are playing true to form.The real target is "the Saint".He is the chief stumbling block for vested interests.His "statuesque" image is because like a statue,he never moves on anything major. Gen.VKS is a "ship that passes in the night".He is a transitory phenomenon.He is of nuisance value.His term in any case has been terminated,but he is also playing his unwitting part.The media too are being manipulated,with exclusive scoops being thrown to them from inside sources ,some of them do not realise how they are all pieces on the board being manipulated.

For quite some time now,a few years in fact,the grouse in Delhi has been the slow decision of the "Saint". $80 billion worth of acquisitions is expected within the next 5 years (KPMG).A real boom time for global defence manufacturers.However,the UPA-2 regime is rapidly running out of steam and the deals must be clinched asap.Removing "the Saint" without good reason is going to be veryt difficult,given his clean character.A raging controversy and scam has to be found.There is already one controversy that will terminate the chief's tenure,his DOB error.It is put into play and "the Saint" has fallen for the babu bait.The "civil vs military" mindset,"politicos must be the bosses" argument is trotted out,and Gen.VKS true to form fights back controversially for a COAS using the media-perfect! The cat is out of the bag,the country now knows that the IA (Gen.VKS) and the MOD (the Saint) are at war.The media regales us with names of other IA suspect senior officers in the "line of succession",reputations are trashed, giving the impression that there is war within the IA too.

But this is only the appetiser.Next comes the "entree".The alleged Tatra bribe offer that rocks the nation.Here the pieces moved on the board are an arms manufacturer-Indian owned,and a PSU.The quiet role of PSU price padding becomes universally known.This is worse than foreign manufacturers where we drive a hard bargain.We are now informed that the PSUs are the main route for kickbacks.One can just imagine what is happening in the other defence PSUs! No longer is the issue a DOB spat,or a succession spat,but a series of potential major scams like Bofors.But this is not the end of the banquet,wait for the main course.

The main course of the plot is the good general's secret letter to the PM,which is tradition for service chiefs,who all moan about the state of their service.The timing is superb,as if it was done by the chief in an act of revenge,on the eve of the BRICS summit when the Chinese "Dr.Hu" will delight in the revelations.Suddenly we are aghast at the state of affairs (as if we didn't know about it all along).Uproar in the house.Cries of "sack the general" from all parties. No ammo to fight with,tanks unreliable,no artillery,the PLA can come down the Himalayan slopes tomorrow and it will be '62 deja vu ! Find the culprit.Who is to blame? Not the good chief,he has been in the saddle only for two years and it takes time to re-equip,at least 3-4 years.Therefore,the villain of the piece is the "Saint".He has done nothing for 6 years while at the helm of defence.He has been an abject failure.He couldn't keep the DOB issue within the "family",he allowed it to become public knowledge,kept quiet about Tatra and now stories about his failure to book the guilty in scandals when CM and Min for civil Supplies (sugar scam) are trotted out staining his dhoti.

What must be done? Typical Congress firefighting.One can't sack the chief,he will become a martyr and enrage the IA.,sacking Adm.Bhagwat was much easier as the IN doesn't have sufficient troops on land for any mischief making unlike the IA.Sack the "Saint"? The Congress dissident hounds start their usual background baying for his scalp.He is a quitter,but will he? Doubtful. Therefore embarass him to the maximum,put a shaft up the "Saint's " backside,and force him to take quick decisions on a fast track basis.He starts obeying and uses the words "streamline" to the IA regarding trials and decision making.The green light goes on,decisions will be forthcoming in double-quick time,no one can now fault the govt. for decisions as the chief's letter revealed all and the GOI/PMO is coming to the rescue!

"Who benefits ?" ,and are now going to laugh all the way to the bank? ....The foreign mainly US and western arms dealers and manufacturers.Here is why.

"Indian Bloom",is one heading in a def.mag."Industry fights for a piece of the growing Indian defence pie".
KPMG study."$80B" to be spent in 5 years time.Only two years left for decision-making.Hurdles though.Some details:

* Boeing expects to do "$32B" business in the next decade."Not just sales ,but partnerships too",Boeing overseas VP.

*IAF to have 60 sqds (1000 aircraft) by 2030.

*Indian Def. budget up ($33.3B")

*New rules,PSUs and private players can form JVs with foreign firms,apart from the formation of "consortia" and pub-pvt partnerships,policy includes provisions for "the exit of state-run defence companies from deals" !!!

Now we understand why the Tatra scam has been exposed.It is a PSU.The owner is an Indian.The principal a former east-bloc manufacturer.No tears shed if Tatra is taken down,it won't affect western manufacturers and open huge opportunities for them! Expose Tatra first then step by step irregularities in other PSUs."Why buy from PSUs wares with padded prices when it costs far less if made abroad ? Bring in pvt. players to replace PSUs,they will be more efficient and less costly".Allow JVs with foreign firms and increase the level of FDI.

* "Not suprisingly",Boeing,Lockheed Martin,and EF have set up Indian operations,including partnerships with pvt. players.30% offsets.

*Robust growth also attracting foreign "second-level" players and leading desi companies like...the Hinduja Group,poised to enter the def, sector to manufacture..."guns,rockets,missile artillery systems"! Ashk Ley. is to establish a JV with Brit. Chemring,munitions and EW major.Also with S.African Paramount Group (anti-mine vehicles).

* 250 Arjuns and 1650 T-90s by 2020,114 LCHs,400 Light helos,150+ ALHs,F-INSAS (future infantry soldier as a system,1st phase alone worth $5B),66,000 advanced assault rifles,plus lcocal manufacturing to equip 800,000 troops,tripod mounted 12.7mm HMGs .IA's mil. mod program of upgrading firepower ( to counter China with more divisions,etc ) $12B.More Agnis,A-5 ICBM etc.

Apart from making massive moolah from the nation's defence plans,another sinister interest is at work.The vested interest want to protect Pak from any Indian adventurism.Therefore,against Pak,we should be incapable of a decisive mil. victory due to eqpt. shortfalls.The thrust should be to counter China.China too does Pak a favour by sabre rattling and India in knee-jerk fashion now plans to spend tens of billions to counter China,while we are being seduced by Pak about "peace",turning our attention away from Af-Pak,where Pak and its backers plan to control Afghanistan.The master-manipulators have been playing this war game for a long time.The pieces on the board are moving very rapidly as time is running out for the UPA-2 "game".We must now wait and see what turns up for for dessert!

PS:The mood in the IA is that Gen.VKS should not suffer Adm.Bhagwat's fate.He is clean,so too is his designated successor (fine soldier) say officers who have served with both.

Just one PSU horror story. LIke Ripley's "Believe it or Not ?" Take your pick.

Deputed IA offr. to major PSU discovers info being regularly sent to Pak. "Mole" in outfit,writes to the boss.Boss calls back ,"mind your own business"! Offr. furious, further investigates and finds PSU R&D product secretly offloaded to pvt. player,while pretending that R&D on product still going on. Pvt.player offers Govt. same (PSU developed) product at huge price.Same bought! When offr. reveals/threatens to reveal all,is sacked!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Apr 2012 05:47

Philip now I got your attention. How about this? Its 2G related. They sense that internal INC guys are pushing for a re-imaging and hence leaked this 'coup' story to scare them off! After UP loss there is a push for remake.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 05 Apr 2012 05:52

I really wish we never had these weapon tenders and specially this MMRCA.

Either this whole situation is going to distroy delicate thread of our democracy or we will emerge strong as a bull.

How easily a nation can be manipulated by just playing it's so called free media.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 05 Apr 2012 06:51

Troop movement: Govt fails to convince House panel

Everyone has an obligation to not lower the dignity of the Army Chief’s office, says PM

How to buy a battle-ready military

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 05 Apr 2012 07:05

There is not even a charge that a coup was attempted, only that someone jumped at a cat's shadow, and army must be blamed for it, knowing full well that there is no chance of power flowing through the barrel of the gun. Schizophrenia?

Regarding Gen K Sundarji there were some rumours (after all the messes he cleaned up for the govt of the day) which again turned out to be rumours.

There were similar rumours between Indira ji and SAM Manekshaw, also Cariappa.

The closest India has come to an undemocratic setup is during Emergency.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Apr 2012 07:09

Josy Joseph wonders

LINK

War within: Did Army chief’s rivals spook govt on troop movements?

The writer has posted comments on this article

Josy Joseph

Josy Joseph, TNN |

Apr 5, 2012, 05.29AM IST

War within: Did Army chief’s rivals spook govt on troop movements?
On whose advice did government leaders come to believe that there might be something irregular about what was routine movement of army units to test their efficacy in fog conditions?

NEW DELHI: A media report about the movement of two Army units towards Delhi on the night of January 16-17, triggering fears of a challenge to civilian authority, set off an avalanche of denials on Wednesday, turning the spotlight on one of the worst kept secrets in the capital - the bitter factional feud in the top echelons of the Army.

Amid a chorus of denials to the Indian Express report from Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, defence minister A K Antony, the defence secretary, the ministry of defence and the Army, one relevant refutation came through: no notification was required to be given to the defence ministry for the movements of Hisar-based mechanized infantry unit and the Agra-based 50 Para brigade towards Delhi.

And if this was indeed the case, why did the movements create an alarm in the capital? On whose advice did government leaders come to believe that there might be something irregular about what was routine movement of army units to test their efficacy in fog conditions?

That there was alarm seems to be borne out by the fact that the police were directed to raise barricades on the highway as part of what was called a counter-terror exercise. The objective was to slow down the movement of the two units.

The swiftness with which the police drill was set in motion has raised many eyebrows, considering the country can pride itself on its disciplined army with an unshakeable commitment to democracy. Open insubordination has not been considered a realistic risk even by conspiracy theorists.

Many in the capital wondered whether the government was alarmed because the information about the movements - rather, the alert - came from insiders who are generally considered to be reliable. The suspicions were raised because of the bitter factional battle which has raged in the Army for a while.

The sharp differences, which have been the subject of discussion within the Army as well as the defence ministry for over two years, hit a new high over the row over the Army chief General VK Singh's age, leavinan exasperated government scrambling to find ways to put a lid on the conflict, fearing that it might go out of hand.

The fact that police were activated shows PC's hand.

JJ is diverting attention towards IA to show its broken.

One thing in the VKS saga is the continuing finger pointing towards MI doing this, doing that. Previously the National Insecurity Adviser implicated MI elements into saffron terror hangama.

So there is an agenda to drag that branch into some mess or the other.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 05 Apr 2012 07:18

Shekhar Gupta on NDTV on his story

I must say Shekhar Gupta has NEVER fumbled so much for words. There is something very fishy in this whole affair. Shame on him and IE.

Vivek Kumar · Post by **Vivek Kumar** » 05 Apr 2012 07:38

Lt. Gen. H.S. Panag (R) on twitter:
=> Never heard of permission to be taken 4 routine Trg movement of Army units.I was at Hissar as GOC.Never asked anyone.1/2
=> 2/2 Only Banana Republics doubt their AFs.
=> Night of Jan 16th-There was similar insinuation when Sam was Chief!Sam's quip,"Routine movement!Rest is imagination of small minds!"

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 05 Apr 2012 09:10

Fresh PIL against IAC-in-waiting

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_fr ... ng_1671721

Former chiefs of naval staff, Admiral L Ramdas and Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat along with a host of former bureaucrats filed a public interest litigation in the Supreme Court on Wednesday challenging his appointment.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Apr 2012 09:19

Questions by a reader to Nitin Pai's article in Pragati on the 'coup' subject

Pierre 4th April 2012 at 18:31 #

Nitin, I would love to agree with you and assume this piece was published in the national interest. I don’t.

A story as important as this – splashed across a whole front page – does not *attribute* a single core fact to even anonymous sources.

This lack of attribution raises many questions:
QUESTION 1:
The authors make two contradictory assertions.
1. “The Army’s explanation that it was all a simple fog-time exercise was then viewed with scepticism at the highest level”.

2. “The Indian Express has had detailed conversations with key people and sources at the very top of the political, civil and military leadership. There is unanimity over General V K Singh’s impeccable reputation as a sound, professional soldier, earned over nearly 42 years of distinguished service to the Army. Nobody is using the “C” word to imply anything other than “curious”.”

Is the “highest level” of government divorced from the “very top”? If the “very top” of the political and civil leadership was convinced of Gen. Singh’s professionalism, who is this “highest level” that is skeptical of the army’s explanations?

QUESTION 2:
Why should we believe this piece when it claims there was an alert raised within the establishment, when the same movements were reported by other outlets three weeks ago as routine. Again, no authority and no attribution to convince me of IE’s claim.

QUESTION 3:
On whose authority should we believe that Shashikant Sharma was recalled from his visit to Malaysia over these movements? All other reports of his recall attribute it to Gen VK Singh’s unexpected petition in the Supreme Court?

QUESTION 4:
Another self-contradiction: Either the government was ‘bemused’ by the ‘curiosity” of these movements or it was convinced a mutiny was afoot and put in place “contingencies”. Which is it?

The complete lack of attribution, contradictions introduced by the authors themselves and contradictory reports in other media outlets raise enough questions about the veracity of this story and the intention with which it was written. I can’t believe therefore, that the intention was the national interest.

I now think this is float from 2G coterie to test the waters and rally their doubtful flock after the assembly polls debacle.

peter · Post by **peter** » 05 Apr 2012 09:22

chackojoseph wrote:It is a sad state of affair. Even the Army chief bribe news needed different focus, but, people went after Defence Minister and real issue is forgotten. The Army spying on MoD, Chiefs DoB etc have been disinformation and blown out of proportion respectively. IMHO!

No. A defence minister who is not bothered about a bribe to his Army chief *needed* to be the focus. The nation now knows how incompetent the civilian leadership of our army is.

A person who is ambivalent to corruption charges cannot be called Mr Clean. You and a handful are the only faithful who don't see the obvious.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 05 Apr 2012 09:24

Ex colleague of Tejinder singh alleges harrassment

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_lt ... nt_1671725

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 05 Apr 2012 09:41

Has this been posted before. Sunday Guardian is indicating hands of...... for coup rumours...

http://www.sunday-guardian.com/investig ... nder-singh

Coup politics

http://www.firstpost.com/politics/coup- ... 66859.html

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 05 Apr 2012 10:00

The fog time excercise on 16/17 Jan is quite believable. It was fog time and need I add, army will have to wait for the fog and act fast if it wants to excercise fog time movement.

The hilarious part was the PC ki police putting up barricades to stop a Mechanized Division.

Kejriwal is right. Security clearance investigations on Indian Express and Sekhar Gupta should be carried out.

The real order of things (with the benefit of hindsight) is:
1. VKS writes to PM about Lt. Gen. Tajinder Singh but not revealed to Mango man.
2. Birth Date row erupts.
3. SC says it will not get into date of birth row and finds merit in deciding about arrangements for appointment.
4. Non-Coup of 16/17 January takes place.
5. Letter revealed to the Mango Man at this point.
6. Non-Coup revealed to the Mango Man.
7. Apparently Swamy mentions Karthik PC, Tajinder Singh and Major Hooda in the same breath.

Are any changes required?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 05 Apr 2012 10:03

peter wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:It is a sad state of affair. Even the Army chief bribe news needed different focus, but, people went after Defence Minister and real issue is forgotten. The Army spying on MoD, Chiefs DoB etc have been disinformation and blown out of proportion respectively. IMHO!
No. A defence minister who is not bothered about a bribe to his Army chief *needed* to be the focus. The nation now knows how incompetent the civilian leadership of our army is.

A person who is ambivalent to corruption charges cannot be called Mr Clean. You and a handful are the only faithful who don't see the obvious.

As mentioned earlier, you seem to have vested interest and have shown that you don't care about army Chief's statement either.

partha · Post by **partha** » 05 Apr 2012 10:15

A letter in TOI

http://epaper.timesofindia.com/Default/ ... wMode=HTML

Chat Room
Army Takeover?

In the midst of the current defence imbroglio, it may be relevant to recall a not-sowell-known story. In May 1964 when Nehru fell ill, the then-Army Chief, Gen J N Chaudhari, left sealed instructions with the Vice Chief for Manekshaw, who was then the Western Army Commander. The instructions were: should Nehru die, Manekshaw should move with his advance Command HQ and some forces, 4 Div (Ambala) and 50 Para (Agra) to Delhi. Manekshaw recorded his written protests but could not talk to the Chief since he was away in Wellington, near Ooty. But he carried out the order. Later, the government was concerned about the move, but the Army Chief backed out and said that it was Manekshaw’s own initiative. He was immediately shifted to Eastern Command. Later, Manekshaw had the opportunity to relate the true sequence of events with documents to the then-defence minister, Y B Chavan, who advised him to talk to the PM. It was only then that the matter was closed. The events reveal several things: first, that even an army commander dare not NOT carry out written orders of the Chief, however inappropriate they may seem. Second, even an army chief can let down his army commander. Third, even an army commander could meet the PM. Fourth, the top echelons of the government were mature enough not to precipitate matters and to get to the truth and thereafter let matters lie and even appoint him Chief. Now, can you imagine the hell that would have broken loose if something like this were to happen today?
T R RAMASWAMI

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Apr 2012 10:21

There is a famous saying..."The guilty flee when no man pursueth". This may very well be the case of the so-called "coup" movements.
The fact is that the current dispensation in any "banana republic",or even Pak,would've been overthrown aeons ago for the monumental corruption the current regime has allowed .As scam after scam is revealed to the Indian public,now in uproar,"aam admi" protesting through the AH movement,the regime is ultra-sensitive and in great fear of being overthrown either by a people's movement,a military putsch,or a combination of both.The mood of the nation is "throw these b*ggers out",amply demonstrated by the recent elections.As the tension mounted on the chief's reaction to the MOD's refusal to grant him relief over the DOB issue,his moving the SC brought panic to the regime.Routine army movements were viewed with the utmost suspicion,especially as Gen. VKS has a mass of supporters within the IA who know him to be a clean officer,especially in comparison with his bosses in the babu-politico combine.Like the residents of that famous Gaulish village,who shout the "sky is falling!",our (un)worthy regimists panic whenever they see a uniform,wondering whether the "inevitable coup" (as many warn of) if Indian rulers do not reform themselves ,will take place during their era in power.

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... nt/469872/

B G Verghese: India's rotting defence establishment

The civil-military confrontation shows that integrating the defence ministry and reforming procurement are overdue
B G Verghese / Apr 03, 2012,

The disgraceful civil-military crisis India has witnessed denotes complete failure of leadership on the part of the army chief and the defence minister. Rather than try and paper over the cracks, both should go. The honour and security of the nation are far more important than small egos, “goodness”, petty party and civil-military infighting, and a frightening public tendency to suspect conspiracy and corruption at anybody’s prompting. The larger and far more important issue that must be addressed is the dismaying exhibition of deep systemic and structural rot for which successive governments, across parties, must take responsibility. Indecision, drift and factionalism, not just on defence issues, have become the hallmarks of governance and politics. The role of sections of the media in all of this has been less than glorious.

After a wholly unnecessary and unseemly age row, the army chief casually informs the country through the media that a year or more ago he was offered a Rs 14-crore bribe by a just-retired lieutenant-general to facilitate purchase of what he considered substandard and overly priced trucks. This was an extraordinary and irresponsible stance. Why make that disclosure now? The chief, however, properly reported the matter immediately to the defence minister, who asked him to reduce the matter to writing and initiate action. The chief did not wish to pursue the matter, while the minister demurred, since there was nothing in writing.

Related Stories
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- Army Chief, Defence Minister to discuss procurement
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- Signs of truce in Army chief-govt tussle

Here was a duet of folly and farce when the house was on fire. The defence minister does not appear to have kept the prime minister (PM) in the loop. Indeed, the entire national security apparatus was seemingly bypassed. National secrecy trumped national security for a whole year until the bubble was burst by the general for collateral reasons — suggestively to stymie a civil-military arms dealer cabal conspiring to defame him and subvert honest and effective army procurement. A very recent letter from the chief to the PM was leaked next, with the not-so-secret revelation that the army is ill-equipped, even unprepared to fight a war today.

Instead of addressing the fundamental rot, debate has revolved around the second order of irrelevance. The current tamasha has the whole world laughing at India — and has done the armed forces’ image and morale great harm. Two issues that emerge cry for immediate attention: one, civil-military mistrust within the ministry of defence; and two, defence production and procurement policy.

The armed forces are not integrated with the defence ministry but constitute a parallel, though subordinate, echelon. The three services, too, are not integrated but are under separate commands and lack increasingly required co-ordination despite a weakly structured Chiefs of Staff Committee. Both are hangovers from India’s colonial inheritance. Jawaharlal Nehru, fed by Krishna Menon, was for civil, not just political, supremacy, fearing a military coup. It was for this reason that the Kargil Review Committee and subsequent committee recommendations favouring a chief of defence staff and an integrated ministry failed to pass muster, with inter-service rivalries reinforcing the case for civilian control. This obsolete structure has exacerbated civil-military mistrust, caused endless delays in processing matters and allowed many emerging matters to fall between the cracks.

The age controversy also points to the need for urgent reform. The highest military commands must be based on merit and efficiency, not gerontocracy. Some civilians rise to the highest ranks not on the basis of competence but because they are survivors, having done no “wrong” in hindsight only because they did nothing and merely marked time. Achievers take risks and most likely make mistakes. So to equate a bona fide error or less-than-optimal outcomes or additional costs with malfeasance – a disease of epidemic proportions in India – is to invite paralysis. Few realise that non-decisions constitute decisions and can be extravagantly costly.

And so to the gaping gaps in military procurement. No artillery acquisitions have been made since Bofors. Vendors who lose out turn “whistleblower”, allege faulty or unfair trials, and hint at corrupt practice. Disgruntled officials indulge in selective, motivated leaks and find media partners looking for “breaking news”, however uncorroborated; shallow politicians anxious to score a point, any point; and nervous officials and ministers afraid to decide. The result is: put procurement on hold, order re-tendering, and blacklist (all) vendors. Middlemen are seen as dangerous characters seeking a cut whereas many play a useful role and need merely be licensed under rigorous rules. Not just vendors but even governments woo India, the world’s largest arms importer. Big money goes with large defence contracts. But not to procure entails multiple jeopardy — shrinking or ageing inventories, unpreparedness, lack of training and, ultimately, higher costs, sometimes on account of emergency purchases, as during the Kargil war.

India is import-dependent because indigenous defence production and research have been scorned. It is more exciting to visit France or the US and demand fancy qualitative requirements based on annual brochure upgrades than to invest time and money in our own ordnance factories and PSUs. The Indian private sector was ridiculously shut out for years on the grounds of secrecy, competence and inexperience, even as foreign vendors were patronised to learn at India’s expense! The military is as much at fault here as the ministry. The navy has done better than the other services in indigenisation. This is because the warship is a complete platform in itself, and the navy started building warships early on and had its own officers and specialists, commanding and manning dockyards.

There are clear lessons to be learnt from the current crisis. Defence communication and information systems remain hopelessly inadequate. The Defence Research and Development Organisation, ordnance factories and PSUs as domestic vendors must have a close interface with those they are intended to serve. They cannot function on a cost-plus basis without sound timelines and quality control. The private sector must not be kept at arm’s length. Structural reorganisation at the top with a chief of defence staff, a truly integrated defence ministry, jointness and merit can no longer wait. Parliament must insist on quick discussion and implementation of the Naresh Chandra Committee’s forthcoming report on preparedness and higher defence management — the nth in the series.

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 05 Apr 2012 10:38

Indian Army Chief meets Nepal President

Gen. Singh during the brief meeting wished “for peace and prosperity of Nepal.”

On the occasion, President Yadav shed light on the age-old friendly ties between Nepal and India.

Gen Singh is also scheduled to meet Prime Minister Baburam Bhattarai and Deputy Prime Minister and Defence Minister BIjaya Kumar Gachhadar.

On Wednesday, the Indian Army Chief held bilateral talks with his Nepalese counterpart Gen Chatraman Singh Gurung at Army Headquarters.

He is scheduled to return to Delhi on Friday.

Jaybhatt · Post by **Jaybhatt** » 05 Apr 2012 10:57

YAHOO INDIA POLL SHOWS DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSITE RESULTS TO THAT IN TOI POLL

See : http://in.news.yahoo.com/armygate/

An overwhelming majority backed the COAS, Gen. VKS

Shows what many suspected - that the Times of India exercise was bogus and concocted.

Yahoo has no vested interest in Indian domestic affairs.

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 05 Apr 2012 11:07

^ToI is Con-grass mouthpiece.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 05 Apr 2012 11:08

Brando wrote:
ShauryaT wrote:I am wondering, with the current state of affairs and status of our polity, IF a military coup did happen, how many here would support it.

I would NEVER support anybody in a uniform running Delhi. I doubt many people in India would want some desi Mushraff clone swaggering up and down Parliament House.

It would require a LARGE "pair" to claim with a straight face that they can manage 1 billion rancorous Indians when managing the Army of 1 odd million is a handful.

You forget the fact that Emergency was imposed on this country for two and half years by the same Congoons who fear coup by Army.
Civil, Police and other agencies actively participated. It was Judiciary ( esp Allahabad Bench HC ) which stood firm and ordered re-election. We don't imagine Army would do a coup due to many factors including our faith in Indian Army and its training and discipline. Also because we have some measure of faith in other institutions despite all ills.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 05 Apr 2012 11:25

anjan wrote:
Dilbu wrote:Also how is slowing down traffic on highway going to help? Mechanised infantrymen are driving Maruti 800s and cannot get off the road?
Because apparently they were planning a coup while staying on their tank transporters. Shekhar Gupta probably thinks they are force multipliers.

I have to say props to AKA for rubbishing the story in such strong terms. Either it's blind panic on the part of the corrupt or morale is deliberately being lowered for some other purpose.

I have serious doubt that such stories are published to give opportunity to AKA and MMs to improve their tarnished image in the current ongoing saga and of course insinuate against COAS. If there was not need to inform higher authorities then COAS might or might not have known about this as well. SG is closely aligned to current dispensation and commanded high regard. On NDTV he sounded like doggy raja.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 05 Apr 2012 11:41

twitter:

Sheela Bhatt @sheela2010

My friend and senior journalist Virendra Kapoor had alerted me two months back that the intelligence agencies ... wants to “plant” a story against army chief general V.K.Singh. ... He told me the storyline, that the Home ministry guys want to plant, is that how Gen. Singh wanted to stage the coup against UPA government ... but... the top brass in the Army is not ready to join Gen.Singh.... He had insisted that I should double-check.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 05 Apr 2012 11:47

Army Chief calls the story Absolutely Stupid.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 05 Apr 2012 11:55

Meamwhile TATRA Scam is acquiring momentum of its own.

CBI likely to quiz BEML chief for Tatra 'scam'

NEW DELHI: The CBI is likely to interrogate BEML chairman VRS Natarajan in connection with the Tatra truck deal. Agency sources also claimed that they have sought all the documents related to the Tatra deal from the defence ministry and the UK office of Vectra that belongs to Ravi Rishi, who was quizzed for the fifth time on Wednesday.

The agency officials are planning to call Natarajan to know more about the BEML and the Tatra deal to get a clear picture on the matter.

Jaybhatt · Post by **Jaybhatt** » 05 Apr 2012 12:01

In Congress Government's Topsy Turvy World, the Tourism Minister Decides on Army's Purchase of
Artillery Guns

I wonder if other BR colleagues saw this BIG FIGHT programme on NDTV telecast on the 31st March.

I have just downloaded it.

All I can say is that one revelation in the programme is stunning and mind-boggling. But the good old Congresswallas can always come up with something more perverse at any moment.

Between 30=08 minutes and 31=08 mins. (approximately), journalist Saikat Datta confronts that awful harridan Renuka Chowdhury and tells her blankly that she was responsible for scuttling the Indian Army's purchase of field artillery in 2004, when the Army (after extensive trials) had selected a particular gun. Chowdhury had dashed off a letter to the powers-that-be saying that this particular gun was not suitable for the Army.

When she committed this crime, Chowdhury was the Tourism Minister.

She did not (or could not) deny or contradict Saikat Datta's statement. His accusation / charge remained unchallenged.

However, the jumbo, being what she is, couldn't resist her DNA and soon resorted to her disgraceful posturing and that blood-curdling laugh (ugh!).

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/the-bi ... red/227969

Enjoy - I promise you, you will cringe.

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 05 Apr 2012 12:05

The Hindu editorial trashes the IE story. Misplaced fears

This report is absolutely stupid: Gen VK Singh on Indian Express report

ANI_news

PTI Story: - Army Chief rubbishes troop movement report

I love how military people call a spade a spade and not go around and around.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 05 Apr 2012 12:39

Jaybhatt wrote:YAHOO INDIA POLL SHOWS DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSITE RESULTS TO THAT IN TOI POLL

See : http://in.news.yahoo.com/armygate/

An overwhelming majority backed the COAS, Gen. VKS

Shows what many suspected - that the Times of India exercise was bogus and concocted.

Yahoo has no vested interest in Indian domestic affairs.

ToI let people are imbeciles, The poll is nonsense, probably censored but the comments section tells the whole story. They perhaps never could figure out that people would begin commenting once they cannot poll their vote.