India-US Strategic News and Discussion

[Garooda]

Stop crying about how and what the British did to the country. We all know who did what as a nation. It sounds so much like what the 'african american' community rants about in the US all the time and continue to play the blame game. ......

Garoodaji,
Do you think son's carry the burden of their parents Sins ?
or Do you believe in doctrine of Lapse where even murderers are let go because they have committed the crime decades back ?

Has Al Britainnia been ever held responsible , and did it pay towards restorative justice for its victims anywhere in the world ?

...the weavers lost their occupation, fell back on agriculture and were starved to death. One Viceroy stated that " the bones of the cotton weavers are bleaching the plains of India. The misery hardly finds a parallel in the history of commerce."

Do you understand what the above quote entails on a decendant ?
or Do you have a Manchester United tee tucked away in your closet?

I agree the conditions and atorocities were way beyond inhumane. But with your logic, we need to start hating and start compensating any and everyone that ever ruled India including Indian kingdoms. And No. I'm not crazy about the Brits either.

[shiv]

The eyes of the West are political eyes most of the time.

Not just political. Politico-religious-white supremacist. In the west the latter two do not matter because that is the majority. It matters outside the west.

[abhishek_sharma]

History is full of atrocities. Its the same here too. I care about Indians too just not on the thinking terms of others.

Really? So what atrocities did the British suffer due to Indians? And if there is an asymmetry here, why shouldn't we point it out?

[Garooda]

The eyes of the West are political eyes most of the time.

Not just political. Politico-religious-white supremacist. In the west the latter two do not matter because that is the majority. It matters outside the west.

Shivji, I agree however politico-religious-white supremacist is not the majority. Its the image that is perceived outside the West. They are minority which many times doesn't work well with the West's Interests.

[Garooda]

History is full of atrocities. Its the same here too. I care about Indians too just not on the thinking terms of others.

Really? So what atrocities did the British suffer due to Indians? And if there is an asymmetry here, why shouldn't we point it out?

I dont know about British History but certainly they were not the only dynasty that existed in time. I dont know and i dont care if they suffered or not but that is not the point or intention here or in my comment above.

[shiv]

I agree the conditions and atorocities were way beyond inhumane. But with your logic, we need to start hating and start compensating any and everyone that ever ruled India including Indian kingdoms. And No. I'm not crazy about the Brits either.

Why not? Indian forward caste people have gone a long way compensating the discrimination against backward caste people. They could have been put in reservations like Pre-European Americans aka Red Indians. It is in Indian nature to attempt to redress wrongs. But redressing wrongs first demands talking about them.

I was unable to detect any hint of crying in anyone's post - so exactly what were you talking about when you said "stop crying about what the British did". Do you see any reference to what the British did as "crying". Why do you call it crying? Or perhaps you think it needs to be laughed off? If that is your opinion please say so but why on earth should you try and force your view on someone by telling him to "stop crying"? Maybe he wants to cry. That is his opinion no? Is there a problem with that?

[member_22872]

Garooda ji, we don't have to hate anyone. But amnesia about past works against us, that too when one forgets the pain and suffering our forefathers went through. I don' t know what makes you think we are stuck in the past constantly redressing our wounds. That said it is nothing but callousness if one 'moves' past what had happened without even letting the pain seep in, we need to vicariously think about the plight of Indian who suffered at the hands of the west. Like Lilo ji has pointed out, none of those atrocities were neither acknowledged leave alone bringing them to justice. In this context, how can Indians just move on as if nothing ever happened? you might have heard and seen media playing and redressing the plight of african-americans every time something bad happens. I put to you, how many people outside India know how many Indians died at the hands of the Brits? how many times Indians were given a sympathetic ear on any media outlet? they blame everything and anything on Indians when given a chance. No we cant move on till Indians find justice.

Even the Indian intellect is mocked at every given venue. Our nuclear technology is not something to be proud off, our technical paper quality is abysmal, what else? so there is nothing about Indians that west looks up to in reverence, not because we don't lack it, but because they are arrogant not to acknowledge. Even though everything in the civilized world can be traced back to India.

[Lilo]

I agree the conditions and atorocities were way beyond inhumane. But with your logic, we need to start hating and start compensating any and everyone that ever ruled India including Indian kingdoms. And No. I'm not crazy about the Brits either.

Aren't you missing something important here ?
The Brits are yet to account for the misdeeds of Colonialism anywhere in the world.

Sure invaders have raided and pillaged and plundered India many times and most settled down with that wealth within India.
Even the assorted Royals and the semi-Feudals (jagirdars etc) governed brutally over their masses.

YET none were able to escape the justice of MahaKala (i.e Time) on their past misdeeds - one period's rulers were next period's dasyus and in that misery of getting shafted over generations their sins got purged out. It is still an ongoing process and there is no danger of it getting stopped in India.
Additionally the loot also got redistributed.

BUT Britain has escaped unscathed with its loot intact (there are very few parallels in our history for this kind of escape - like Nadir Shah etc. Even the Pasthuns got their dues through Ranjit Singh's generals).
But the Brits escaped....

So there is still large positive credit in Britannia's account and it HAS to be paid back
in this Generation or in the next Generation.

Remember this before you make another equal equal comparision with Brits.

[abhishek_sharma]

I dont know and i dont care if they suffered or not but that is not the point or intention here or in my comment above.

You don't care whether they suffered due to Indians or not? If a small group of countries exploit and benefit from colonizing other countries, you just sweep it under the carpet by saying that "History is full of atrocities"?

[abhishek_sharma]

A few weeks ago, you were suffering from MUTU-ism. Now you have symptoms of Gunga Din-itis. How about curing these diseases?

[shiv]

Its the image that is perceived outside the West.

If you take the short term view of what the "west" represents from WW2 to today, this is correct. But Western civilization which is currently represented by the USA at the summit has been built entirely on religious-white supremacist doctrines. Discrimination against blacks is only just below the surface in the US, so your assertion that the white supremacist-religious viewpoints are a minority have an exact parallel in the Pakistani elite asserting that "Only 5% of our electorate voted for Islamist extremist parties". That may be true, but the behavior of the Pakistani nation screams Islamic extremism. The US does not scream white supremacist religion - but the agenda is pretty clear in terms of who controls what.

[Garooda]

I agree the conditions and atorocities were way beyond inhumane. But with your logic, we need to start hating and start compensating any and everyone that ever ruled India including Indian kingdoms. And No. I'm not crazy about the Brits either.

Why not? Indian forward caste people have gone a long way compensating the discrimination against backward caste people. They could have been put in reservations like Pre-European Americans aka Red Indians. It is in Indian nature to attempt to redress wrongs. But redressing wrongs first demands talking about them.

I was unable to detect any hint of crying in anyone's post - so exactly what were you talking about when you said "stop crying about what the British did". Do you see any reference to what the British did as "crying". Why do you call it crying? Or perhaps you think it needs to be laughed off? If that is your opinion please say so but why on earth should you try and force your view on someone by telling him to "stop crying"? Maybe he wants to cry. That is his opinion no? Is there a problem with that?

Should have used 'whining' instead of crying I would love to elaborate but do not wish to derail the topic.

[Garooda]

A few weeks ago, you were suffering from MUTU-ism. Now you have symptoms of Gunga Din-itis. How about curing these diseases?

Now you're a psychologist?

Anyway. As earlier within this thread, it is getting off topic.

[gakakkad]

A few weeks ago, you were suffering from MUTU-ism. Now you have symptoms of Gunga Din-itis. How about curing these diseases?

IMHO shiv saar can do a radical perineal resection with b/l orchidectomy ..that should do the trick..

[abhishek_sharma]

>> Now you're a psychologist?

No. Unlike some, I have common sense. You don't need to be a psychologist to recognize a MUTU /Gunga Din. Reading their posts is sufficient.

[Garooda]

I agree the conditions and atorocities were way beyond inhumane. But with your logic, we need to start hating and start compensating any and everyone that ever ruled India including Indian kingdoms. And No. I'm not crazy about the Brits either.

YET none were able to escape the justice of MahaKala (i.e Time) on their past misdeeds - one period's rulers were next period's dasyus and in that misery of getting shafted over generations their sins got purged out. It is still an ongoing process and there is no danger of it getting stopped in India.

That is what I agree with you is TIME. And it certainly has delivered some form of Justice if you see UK's latest generation and the rate of drop in schooling system. Bound for failure as a society.

[shiv]

Should have used 'whining' instead of crying I would love to elaborate but do not wish to derail the topic.

So you believe it is OK to describe others viewpoints as "whining" and choose to take cover behind the statement that this is your opinion. Thanks for the hint. I suppose you will have absolutely no problem in being told that you are talking rubbish, in someone's opinion, of course. It's a discussion forum after all. Everyone has an opinion. Your opinion is that recalling British atrocities is "whining". And that is all bang on topic.

[Garooda]

>> Now you're a psychologist?

No. Unlike some, I have common sense. You don't need to be a psychologist to recognize a MUTU /Gunga Din. Reading their posts is sufficient.

Theek hai...whatever works for you and makes your day

[Garooda]

Should have used 'whining' instead of crying I would love to elaborate but do not wish to derail the topic.

So you believe it is OK to describe others viewpoints as "whining" and choose to take cover behind the statement that this is your opinion. Thanks for the hint. I suppose you will have absolutely no problem in being told that you are talking rubbish, in someone's opinion, of course. It's a discussion forum after all. Everyone has an opinion. Your opinion is that recalling British atrocities is "whining". And that is all bang on topic.

No it is not OK. My response was to his comments and remarks not to anyone else who decided to jump in Anyway, I do not wish to drag this subject as it has nothing to do with 'India-US Strategic News and Discussion'.

[Lilo]

That is what I agree with you is TIME. And it certainly has delivered some for of Justice if you see UK's latest generation and the rate of drop in schooling system.

Garoodaji,
This will be my final post on this topic.

You got me worng ,
I say, it entails upon us to work actively to inflict the fruits of their misdeeds on the Brits - you think it will automatically happen through action of time and indians need not do anything but to layback and enjoy the show ?

I say Brits have escaped - you say they have not and are actually suffering from their "rate of school dropout".
To put it mildly, "sense of proportion" is severely lacking in your observation .

[Garooda]

That is what I agree with you is TIME. And it certainly has delivered some for of Justice if you see UK's latest generation and the rate of drop in schooling system.

Garoodaji,
This will be my final post on this topic.

You got me worng ,
I say, it entails upon us to work actively to inflict the fruits of their misdeeds on the Brits - you think it will automatically happen through action of time and indians need not do anything but to layback and enjoy the show.

I say Brits have escaped - you say they have not and are actually suffering from their "rate of school dropout".
To put it mildly, "sense of proportion" is severely lacking in your observation .

They are not suffering as how you want them to perhaps. All I wanted to indicate is that they are in Decline as a society. Fine...I might be wrong and misread your comments...you want me to feel the same way as you do which it might or might not happen as your observations are yours and not mine. But then what do you suggest Indians should do if not sit back and enjoy the popcorn?

[Garooda]

A few weeks ago, you were suffering from MUTU-ism. Now you have symptoms of Gunga Din-itis. How about curing these diseases?

IMHO shiv saar can do a radical perineal resection with b/l orchidectomy ..that should do the trick..

Treatment seems to have worked on you thats for sure

[RajeshA]

Anybody who has done Indians wrong need to suffer and not by the hand of fate but by Indian hands and cunning, and the suffering has to be proportional or more.

All who argue against this axiom simply lack a sense of their self-worth as Indians.

[KLNMurthy]

Garooda, it looks to me like you jumped in too early to participate in BRF discussions. There is a good reason why people spend even years in lurker mode before opening their mouths. If you can't see the reason, you are not ready.

You are not contributing, you are making everyone waste their time in remedying your ignorance and obtuseness. I request you to come back after educating yourself and improving your mind.

Others, I suggest it is time to treat garooda as a troll.

[gakakkad]

>>Treatment seems to have worked on you thats for sure

was not indicated in me ..

[Garooda]

Garooda, it looks to me like you jumped in too early to participate in BRF discussions. There is a good reason why people spend even years in lurker mode before opening their mouths. If you can't see the reason, you are not ready. You are not contributing, you are making everyone waste their time in remedying your ignorance and obtuseness. I request you to come back after educating yourself and improving your mind.

Thanks for the advice. Nobody has to spend time remedying anything. They can either chose to respond, ignore, agree or disagree. Its just a discussion forum.

[Garooda]

>>Treatment seems to have worked on you thats for sure
was not indicated in me ..

But it is evident in your chamchagiri

[Garooda]

Anyway bhaiyo..have fun. Bahut kaam baaki hai.

[gakakkad]

Garooda, Lets get serious here. Many of the regular posters here have been members for over a decade. Even though I joined last year only , I used to lurk since the late 90s. I followed the kargil war on this site as a school kid. Now I am a fellow in cardiology. One can say I grew up with the forum. Now Indians have a peculiar tendency of loathing themselves. Every now and then , some such Indian pops up here . You seem to exhibit some such characteristics. Sometimes people here attempt correcting such people.

Trust me , it is not always a futile activity .

[Garooda]

Garooda, Lets get serious here. Many of the regular posters here have been members for over a decade. Even though I joined last year only , I used to lurk since the late 90s. I followed the kargil war on this site as a school kid. Now I am a fellow in cardiology. One can say I grew up with the forum. Now Indians have a peculiar tendency of loathing themselves. Every now and then , some such Indian pops up here . You seem to exhibit some such characteristics. Sometimes people here attempt correcting such people.
Trust me , it is not always a futile activity .

Ok. Point well taken.

[Philip]

Yes,the Brits during their rule here did commit by acts of commission or omission,many "atrocities",which were part and parcel of colonial rule all over the world.However,they ruled in manner similar to the Romans,with laws,rules,ordinances,etc., both for rulers and ruled.A great part of our wealth was moved to foreign shores,lakhs of our people also to foreign lands to work on plantations,but in setting up the machinery with which to "transfer assets",they also left behind many systems which we have put to good use after gaining Independence,like a national railway network,the lifeline of the country,a legal system,a parliamentary system of governance and many other edifices and entities which we enjoy today.

However,we have now been Independent for 65 years,and to keep on blaming the British for our current woes is to miss the target completely.We have only ourselves to blame today for the rot that has eaten into the system that we inherited,with monumental greed,selfishness, and chicanery characterising our politico-babu nexus and their cronies in the corporate world,who have manipulated the system to enrich themselves at the expense of the nation.

One singular aspect of this current return of the "East India Co.",has been the insidious manner in which the US has been allowed free access into the "corridors of power".Under the twin comedy act of "Snake oil" Singh and his Sancho Panza ,Montek,whose infamous calculation of how much money is needed per day for an Indian to survive on enraged the nation,the entire "tilt" of Indian economic policy has been to benefit foreign treasure hunters.Thanks to the clown of good times,and the travails of his airline,we will now see yet another piece of family silver,the airline sector,being sold off to the firangs!

The rage of Uncle Sam's diplomatic flunkeys when US birds were dumped in the MMRCA deal and the immediate resignation of the US ambassador,only shows how hollow this "strategic relationship" with the US actually is.It is a marriage of great inconveniance,as the firang groom expects his Indian bride to behave in traditional manner,obey all commands,walk a few steps behind the husband,never contradict her lord and master in public and suffer physical abuse (26/11 and continual Paki terrorism ) without complaint ,both
from the husband and his mistress/rent boy!

[a_kumar]

Stop crying about how and what the British did to the country. We all know who did what as a nation. It sounds so much like what the 'african american' community rants about in the US all the time and continue to play the blame game.

Do you really know what British did to the country? What if you are wrong and you barely touched the surface. This is probabaly the first disconnect you will have with this forum. That is where it might help lurking for a bit.

I am only indicating to go past the 'atrocities'.

One can interpret that in two ways.
(1) STOP CRYING & MOVE ON : In advocating this, you seem impatient, offended and even defensive about any negative criticism of the past atrocities by the Brits. In summary you want to pretent like it never happened.

During your stint in the US I am sure you have heard "lessons learnt" bandied around after a project is concluded. You probabaly kicked them of yourself. So what you are advocating on this forum is a "NO lessons learnt" policy.

(2) UNDERSTAND WHAT HAPPENED and put mechanisms in place to prevent them from happening. : A lot of perspectives which you seem to have an issue with belong in this category. This would be called the "lesson's learnt" stage of the project. But the first part is understanding what truely happened and next is figuring out why it happened. And everytime somebody makes any reasonable effort to understanding what happened, new converts like yourself in their vast wisdom starts name calling (whining/crying/cribbing etck) and drumbeat it.

It used to be a norm to constantly talk about the Indian poverty however that is not the case now. Indians are generally looked upon with respect due to their heritage and ofcourse education.

seriously
Slumdog didn't make it big and won all the oscars for its heritage and education and culture. Not sure what your exposure is to the US demographics, but I would be cautious with statements like above. Sure there are folks who have been respectful of the heritage as you put it, but to think that is anymore than a tiny segment would be a big blunder. Its like trying to kiss a moving "american-made" train because you love the feel of "american-made" car. Don't confuse the tiny population that appreciate Indian perspective with larger machinary and civilizational inertia that has its own agenda.

At times I feel that it is still being used by the Hebrews to extort the International Community.

It is shocking that you are so sparing and cautious about your feelings there. You only "at times" feel that way. And that too that they are "still" doing it. So you imply that it was fine that it happened for the past 60 years, but it has to end. Pray tell, what did Indians do during all this time that is even comparable to the energy shown by Jewish community in making sure world acknowledged and Germans accepted the atrocities for what they are. What did the British do in comparision to what the Germans did to make amends. Are Indian lives any less valuable?

Isn't it sad that you probably know more about the Holocaust on the other side of the world than similar events that hapened probabaly 1000 kms from where you were born in. Worst has been done on Indians and yet, and we still have little clue of what happened even after staying free for 65 years. And it is becuase while the Jewish intellegensia have become truely free and broken out of the chicken coop, Indians have been cursed. Because a big chunk of the socalled "elites" have still not gained freedom and gave rise to even more dhimmis. And some have made a profession out of becoming tools of the West to undermine any such effort to be free.

Food for thought, talking about subconscious programming :
Are you charitable to the Jewish efforts because the custodians of history (lets say british and Allies) approved it?
Is it possible you are against Indians investigating the atrocities because it hurts the custodians of history (victors of Worlds war II)?

[Prem]

http://techcrunch.com/2012/04/12/micros ... -in-india/
Microsoft Inks Its Biggest Cloud Deal Yet: 7.5M Students And Teachers In India

Microsoft has announced that it has signed its largest-ever cloud services deal, an agreement with the All India Council for Technical Education to deploy Microsoft’s Live@edu service to some 10,000 technical colleges in the country, covering 7.5 million users.The deal is significant not just for its size but also as a mark of how cloud services are developing in two big areas at the moment: education and emerging markets — and how Microsoft is staking out a claim to be a player in both.
Under the terms of the deal, the AICTE, an association representing both technical colleges and institutions of technology, will use Live@edu, Microsoft’s hosting communication and collaboration service specially customized for the education sector, to offer collaboration services, email, web apps, IM and storage to 7 million students and half a million faculty members. The deployment will take place over the next three moths, Microsoft said in a statement.Microsoft has not disclosed the value of the deal, but it won it over competitive bids from some of its biggest rivals in cloud services Google and IBM, another key reason for Microsoft to have secured the deal.AICTE went for Microsoft, it says, because of the broader portfolio of services that Microsoft offers, and also its competitive pricing.IT in India is one of the fastest growing segments of its economy — combined with back-office and outsourcing it’s an industry worth around $100 billion at the moment. Microsoft has a strong presence in the country already, so getting buy in from students who will be working in that sector in the country longer-term is a good way to ensure more loyalty to Microsoft’s products in the future.To give an idea of the relative size of the AICTE deal compared to others Microsoft has signed, one of its more recent deals was with the Kentucky Department of Education covering 700,000 users. In all, there are around 22 million people using Microsoft’s Live@edu service, meaning that this newest deal in India represents about one-third of all of Microsoft’s cloud/education business.

[

[a_kumar]

garooda, thank you for telling me how to moderate BR. let me start by issuing board warnings for repeated off topic postings even after 2 mods cautioning against it.

p.s. your urge to bring in India for each and every US related topic does not show your lack of hypocrisy.
it merely shows
a) you suffer from an unresolved inferiority complex. the discomfort you are suffering from when a couple of flaws of US are pointed out shows your blind unthinking faith.
b) your lack of understanding about how to argue with facts and logic. what you are doing is called 'torn shirt open fly' argument in these parts. it doesn't amount to much more than rhetoric.
let's say we agree, India is baaad. that still doesn't make the warts of US go away.

I do not suffer from inferiority complex. I am not a BC or anything if thats what you are trying to imply

This does take the cake! It is not only offensive but gives a keen insight into how the brain functions!

So when somebody accuses you of suffereing from unresolved inferiority complex, first thing that comes to your mind is they are accusing you of being a BC? And how dare they huh?

I am so tempted to reporting that post, but am hoping you will take this opportunity to self-moderate, open your mind and evolve.

[ShyamSP]

I do not suffer from inferiority complex. I am not a BC or anything if thats what you are trying to imply

This does take the cake! It is not only offensive but gives a keen insight into how the brain functions!

So when somebody accuses you of suffereing from unresolved inferiority complex, first thing that comes to your mind is they are accusing you of being a BC? And how dare they huh?

I am so tempted to reporting that post, but am hoping you will take this opportunity to self-moderate, open your mind and evolve.

Is it an insult or some deep mental perversion of the poster?

BTW, Is this "Kerala, Bengalore" kind of test on new members.

[lakshmikanth]

I do not suffer from inferiority complex. I am not a BC or anything if thats what you are trying to imply

This does take the cake! It is not only offensive but gives a keen insight into how the brain functions!

So when somebody accuses you of suffereing from unresolved inferiority complex, first thing that comes to your mind is they are accusing you of being a BC? And how dare they huh?

I am so tempted to reporting that post, but am hoping you will take this opportunity to self-moderate, open your mind and evolve.

a_kumar,

It shows that the poster automatically assumes that BC's have inferiority complex. For him BC==Inferiority complex. If he realizes what is going on in his brain while making that connection, that is the first lesson in realizing what is cognitive bias, a disease that infect most Macaulayites like our esteemed poster.

[Garooda]

........

With all due respect, too many assumptions about me on your part. I would love to respond to you in detail but just dont have the time to justify myself to you sirji or to derail this thread.

[Garooda]

lakshmikanth

You are also assuming and speculating at the best. I would love to respond to you in detail but just dont have the time to justify myself to you sirji or to derail this thread. Good luck.

[Garooda]

a_kumar

I am so tempted to reporting that post, but am hoping you will take this opportunity to self-moderate, open your mind and evolve.

Sure go ahead and report if you like. Its just a discussion. We all are evolving on a daily basis. Will keep your statement in mind.

[KLNMurthy]

One reference for British holocaust in India is
Late Victorian Holocausts by Mike Davis.
Davis is American, so not entirely OT.