Physics Discussion Thread

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 02 Mar 2012 23:12

Saar, of the cuff all I can say is you will have to deal with differential equations and solving them based on the boundary conditions ( enshrined in the way string/rope breaks). All you will need is the mass density of the rope. It is not trivial to do this, but I am sure there are experts who make a living out of this already.

Physicists usually do not get excited about such mundane but real problems.

There a few rare breeds though who indulge themselves with such challenges. But it is mostly an engineering issue after a point when modeling etc has to be invoked.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 02 Mar 2012 23:28

Thanks Bade Ji, as i mentioned in my 1st post on this, i tried calculating impact energy by change of momentum/ impact time and also Fxd = .5mv2. I got drastically different results. That's what got me looking for more literature, but have had problems digging it up. I am not sure how the energy is dissipated along the rope as it waves around. The wave is also dependent on the strand structure of the rope and material. So it's not really a straight up thing. I do feel the mechanics behind it should fall in the realm of pure physics though.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 03 Mar 2012 00:02

Harbans, I do not think the strategy you employed will work, as even a thin string (not a thick rope) an essential one dimensional object, can not be approximated to a point, as it is a series of continuous point parts, the thick rope has an added dimension other than the length. The various modes of vibration that can be setup in such a string or cylindrical object is where if any physics papers can be found. You will soon be dealing with harmonics of all kinds as solutions to your differential equations.

I do not want to go there as one of our UG days Brofessor in Acoustics made us drink crow soup many a times with multiple attempts to clear his paper. Yes, 99% of the class failed his tests multiple times. Some who failed are now Brofessors themselves.

Google for "vibrational modes of <fill in the shapes>" you desire and plenty of published work will crop up !

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 03 Mar 2012 00:51

Harbans, I do not think the strategy you employed will work, as even a thin string (not a thick rope) an essential one dimensional object, can not be approximated to a point

That's the reason possibly i got messed in this. I have to approximate impact on a particular point external to the snap rope or impact energies at discrete distances. Anyways will look into the vibration mode part and see whats available.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 03 Mar 2012 02:53

This one may turn out to be useful to you if you are wiling to look for thin string solutions as a starting point and ignore the thickness.
Transverse and longitudinal mode coupling in a free vibrating soft string, E.V. Kurmyshev, Physics Letters A 310 (2003) 148–160
http://144.206.159.178/ft/847/86775/1469315.pdf

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 03 Mar 2012 14:08

Bade Ji thanks for the link. Gone through this with a colleague too. But between a thin string oscillation and a multistrand thick fibre/ synthetic rope snap, the spatial mode distributions will possibly be vastly different and so the mathematical assumptions from what is analyzed in the paper and the same would apply to transverse wave generation too. Lot's of heavy stuff there

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 07 Mar 2012 20:55

Amber G. wrote:Just realized, I did talk about Majoran Fermions here in the Physics dhaga ... worth reading again..
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... a#p1161303

A very nice current article in Nature:
A solid case for Majorana fermions

First compelling evidence of self-annihilating entities in a semiconductor is a step forward for quantum computing

A year before he mysteriously disappeared at sea, Italian physicist Ettore Majorana posed a puzzle for future researchers. Quantum pioneer Paul Dirac had in 1928 predicted the existence of antimatter — mirror particles that annihilate with their matter counterparts. All known fermions — particles with half-integer spin, such as electrons — obey Dirac’s rules, but in 1937 Majorana varied Dirac’s equation to predict a class of particle that is its own antiparticle: the Majorana fermion.

Whether anything in nature fits Majorana’s prediction has remained unclear. But Leo Kouwenhoven, a nanoscientist at Delft University of Technology in the Netherlands, unveiled the most promising evidence so far for the existence of Majorana fermions, at a meeting of the American Physical Society in Boston, Massachusetts, on 27 February[./b] { I reported on that here } The result is not just a vindication for the vanished theorist: Majoranas might also turn out to be the ideal information carriers in certain schemes for quantum computing.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 07 Mar 2012 20:55

NY times story about Higgs Boson
Data Hint at Hypothetical Particle, Key to Mass in the Universe

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 07 Mar 2012 20:58

Even Tevatron experiments are now reporting on potential Higgs find so as not be left behind.

http://news.yahoo.com/us-physicists-con ... 11592.html

Physicists from the CDF and DZero collaborations at Fermi National Acceleratory Laboratory in Illinois said in a statement that their data "might be interpreted as coming from a Higgs boson with a mass in the region of 115 to 135 GeV (gigaelectronvolts)."

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 07 Mar 2012 21:07

^^^ Speaking of the Tevatron, (the most powerful accelerator in the world for the last few decades) shut down last September!

Another slightly amusing thing about "mass in the region of 115 to 135 GeV" is a kind of famous inside joke among physicists ... every one has been reporting and agreeing about its mass around 125 Gev, yet none claims that Higgs boson has even been discovered with certainty .

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 07 Mar 2012 21:34

From the nature link

The Tevatron results are based on 10 inverse femtobarns (a barn is a unit used to measure the probability that particles interact) of data collected by each experiment from 2002 until the machine was shut down in September 2011.

That compares with about 5 inverse femtobarns collected by each of the LHC experiments. However, the LHC has been running at a higher energy of 7 TeV compared to the Tevatron’s 2 TeV, and so is expected to produce a higher number of Higgs particles per collision. Researchers at the LHC are hoping to collect about three times as much data at a higher energy of 8 TeV in 2012, which should allow each of its experiments separately to reach a level of statistical significance of 5 sigma, enough to claim a discovery, if the standard model Higgs exists.

“I think it’s great that [the Tevatron is] getting some sensitivity to the Higgs but I think the definite answer will come from the LHC by the end of the year, ” says Joe Incandela, spokesman for the LHC’s Compact Muon Solenoid (CMS), one of the experiments looking for the Higgs.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 08 Mar 2012 00:56

Current Scientific American also has the nice popular article which was published in Nature originally..

Hint of Higgs Particle Found in Data from Now-Defunded U.S. Collider

Final analysis suggests the US collider saw signs of the elusive particle.

(The article in nature is at :
http://www.nature.com/news/boost-for-hi ... ta-1.10167)

Few comments:

1. I was going to mention it but, it is there in Nature's article, so I will just quote it:

For the now-closed Tevatron, a demonstration of sensitivity to the Higgs can be seen as a kind of moral victory, says theorist Gordon Kane of the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor. In 2011, researchers at Fermilab argued for an extension to the machine's run, on the grounds that they might be able to obtain evidence for the Higgs if they had more time, but their proposal was turned down by the U.S. Department of Energy. "This proves they could have found the Higgs themselves, if they'd had full funding," says Kane.

2. Tevatron is more sensitive to particles produced by the Higgs decaying into a bottom and antibottom quarks (vs LHC is sensitive to other decay modes)

3. "Barn" as Bade quoted in the above article, is actually just an unit of area (10^(-28) m^2). This unit was selected, to confuse people not in the know, to describe the cross-section area of Uranium (or Pu etc) around the second world war...
An interesting discussion where "barn was used" is below (see some comments by me and GP around that time)
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... n#p1094202

Enjoy

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 08 Mar 2012 01:09

As regard shutting down the Tevatron early ( as per some), the inside rumour mill claims were if Higgs was actually discovered at a significance to claim full discovery at the Tevatron, then DOE would have been hard pressed with reasons for supporting LHC experiments. In fact it had already invested heavily in LHC experiments by then !

Plausible story, but no one in their sane mind is going to vouch for it, if already on DOE grant money.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 08 Mar 2012 02:17

Another recent article about Majorana Fermions and its practical implications...
(There are a few Indian Scientists in this field too)
Quest for quirky quantum particles may have struck gold

Getting into nanoscience pioneer Leo Kouwenhoven’s talk at the American Physical Society’s March meeting in Boston, Massachusetts, today was like trying to board a subway train at rush hour. The buzz in the corridor was that Kouwenhoven’s group, based at the Delft University of Technology in the Netherlands, might have beaten several competing teams in solid-state physics — and the community of high-energy physicists — to a long-sought goal, the detection of Majorana fermions, mysterious quantum-mechanical particles that may have applications in quantum computing.

Kouwenhoven didn’t disappoint. “Have we seen Majorana fermions? I’d say it’s a cautious yes,” he concluded at the end of a data-heavy presentation.

....
. But in 1937, Italian physicist Ettore Majorana{ IMO, one of the brightest physicist} adapted equations that Englishman Paul Dirac had used to describe the behaviour of fermions and bosons to predict the existence of a type of fermion that was its own antiparticle. Over decades, particle physicists have looked for Majorana fermions in nature, and after 2008, condensed-matter physicists began to think of ways in which they could be formed from the collective behaviour of electrons in solid-state materials, specifically, on surfaces placed in contact with superconductors or in one-dimensional wires.

...
If the Delft group's result holds up, it not only represents an impressive coup in solid-state physics, but does so ahead of other approaches to creating Majorana fermions. For example, the neutralino, a hypothetical supersymmetric particle that could account for some or all of the Universe's dark matter, is thought to be a Majorana fermion. Some models suggest that neutralinos could be produced by the Large Hadron Collider at CERN, the European particle-physics laboratory near Geneva, Switzerland.

BTW, long ago, I put a link (Prof Kane's from Upenn) which is quite easy to understand even for non-experts ..

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 12 Mar 2012 21:32

Nice colloquium talk ..on 3/13..about Tevatron/Fermi lab contribution ...
Closing in on the Higgs Boson

The intro of above:

The Higgs mechanism was proposed nearly fifty years ago as a way to explain how fundamental particles can have mass. In addition to explaining the origin of mass in the Standard Model of particle physics, the theory requires the existence of a yet undiscovered particle called the Higgs boson. After year of searching for this “last puzzle piece,” we are finally on the verge of either finding the Higgs boson or shattering the long standing Standard Model. The stage has been set by recent hints from the CMS and ATLAS experiments at CERN’s Large Hadron Collider of a Higgs boson with a mass around 125 times the proton mass. I will present brand new results from Fermilab’s Tevatron collider, which achieve similar and complementary sensitivity to a Higgs boson in this most interesting mass range.

...For those who are unfamiliar, Fermilab (Illinois in USA) housed the world’s largest particle accelerator — the Tevatron .. Last September, Fermilab shut down the Tevatron forever.

Fame shifted to CERN (Geneva, Switzerland) 's LHC ( Large Hadron Collider)

Fermilab seemed like old news — until last week....

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 14 Mar 2012 01:09

some may find interesting...
http://htwins.net/scale2/

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 14 Mar 2012 07:53

AmberG, thanks a lot for that link on scale. My kid loved it a lot. Puts things in a different perspective for them.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 14 Mar 2012 13:04

AmberG, I echo Bade's response. That link on Scale of Universe was amazing. I was filled with euphoria as I went through the animation. Thanks a lot for sharing the link

kenop · Post by **kenop** » 14 Mar 2012 16:34

I am looking for some reading material on the developments leading to dirac delta function.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 15 Mar 2012 21:11

^^^ From what I heard....(From college days ... went something like ...)_
In Louisiana ( in USA), there is a small river called the Dirac. Many wealthy people have their mansions near its mouth. One of the social leaders decided to have a grand ball. Being a cousin of the Governor, she arranged for a detachment of the state militia to serve as guards and traffic directors for the big doings. A captain was sent over with a small company; naturally he asked if there was enough room for him and his unit. The social leader replied,

But of course, Captain! It is well known that the Dirac delta function has unit area.

Sorry if there are groans ... could not resist

BTW, I did have a chance to audit a course in QM given by Dirac, (knew him personally), his QM text book gives a very nice treatment about delta function. (here)

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 16 Mar 2012 21:33

Breaking news ...

Recent checking of neutrino's using a different detector than OPERA but keeping rest of the infra-structure essentially the same as the old experiment found that neutrinos did not travel faster than light.

These results are significant because they largely took advantage of precisely the same infrastructure used to generate the OPERA results. ICARUS used the short, widely spaced bunches of neutrinos produced by CERN to help narrow down potential errors in the earlier results The ICARUS team also used the same timing and position infrastructure used by OPERA (without loose cables), which gives them uncertainties of only nanoseconds and centimeters, respectively. WIth all that in place, the ICARUS team captured data from the arrival of seven neutrinos.

Difference between the two detectors is OPERA uses a photographic emulsion, while ICARUS uses liquid argon..

For more see link: http://arxiv.org/abs/1203.3433
Measurement of the neutrino velocity with the ICARUS detector at the CNGS beam
(Submitted on 15 Mar 2012)

The CERN-SPS accelerator has been briefly operated in a new, lower intensity neutrino mode with ~10^12 p.o.t. /pulse and with a beam structure made of four LHC-like extractions, each with a narrow width of ~3 ns, separated by 524 ns. This very tightly bunched beam structure represents a substantial progress with respect to the ordinary operation of the CNGS beam, since it allows a very accurate time-of-flight measurement of neutrinos from CERN to LNGS on an event-to-event basis. The ICARUS T600 detector has collected 7 beam-associated events, consistent with the CNGS delivered neutrino flux of 2.2 10^16 p.o.t. and in agreement with the well known characteristics of neutrino events in the LAr-TPC. The time of flight difference between the speed of light and the arriving neutrino LAr-TPC events has been analysed. The result is compatible with the simultaneous arrival of all events with equal speed, the one of light. This is in a striking difference with the reported result of OPERA [1] that claimed that high energy neutrinos from CERN should arrive at LNGS about 60 ns earlier than expected from luminal speed.

Added later: Just checked, there is story in today's Washington Post also:
Not so fast: 2nd team finds neutrinos don’t break light speed, refuting competitors’ results

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 19 Mar 2012 22:51

PRL (most respected journal in physics - Physical Review letters) is going to have an article about very accurate "nuclear" clock (100x precise than current atomic clocks) using Thorium nucleus...

Here is a link from Phys.org
Researchers develop blueprint for nuclear clock accurate over billions of years

A clock accurate to within a tenth of a second over 14 billion years – the age of the universe – is the goal of research being reported this week by scientists from three different institutions. To be published in the journal Physical Review Letters, the research provides the blueprint for a nuclear clock that would get its extreme accuracy from the nucleus of a single thorium ion.

<snip>

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 20 Mar 2012 08:56

I didn't notice this posted before, so I'll post it here instead of the Nuclear Thread (which has become a useless) in the Strategic Issues Forum. I think its pretty important.

India Joins European Neutron Facility in Grenoble, France

Now my question is, will this participation be a stepping stone for Indian physicists to be invited to the French inertial confinement fusion facility in Bordeaux known as Laser Megajoule with a 1.8 MJ lasers?

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 26 Mar 2012 21:42

^^^ somewhat agree with your comment wrt Nuclear thread .

xpost:
UCSF, UCB and LBNL Scientists Discuss Fukushima, Medical Imaging Radiation Risks
Worth watching.
(Image of banana's is purely coincidental

- I actually popularized the BED in BRF (banana equivalent dose of radiation - as K40 in banana is radioactive --- Living near NPP is gives same amount of radiation as eating 1 banana/ year)

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 30 Mar 2012 21:18

The report is that Prof Antonio Ereditato ( The leader of the OPERA experiment about - neutrinos faster than light) has resigned due to all the backlash. (From what I know, even some members of his group wanted him to resign).

Personally I think this is a shame, as he was quite clear and cautious while announcing the result and was quite honest in asking help to find the mistakes... Newspapers ran with the story without mentioning all the "words of caution" the group showed in their original announcement.

Here is one story: Superluminal Neutrinos: Opera Spokesperson Resigns

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 31 Mar 2012 11:06

I had a strange experience. I was answering a call on land-line phone and sipping orange juice at the same time. Suddenly I got a shock on my left ear side where I was holding phone between my ear and shoulder. Any explanation?

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 01 Apr 2012 01:01

On land line, the DC voltage is about 50 V DC (in US 48 V, and similar value in India). The "ringing" voltage is about 100 V (or more in India).

Combined with capacitance, it is rare but not unusual, to get random shocks even if there is no direct connection to the wire.

Also static electricity can give quite a shock (quite harmless, but you will definitely feel it).

Keep in mind, if the things are wet, even 50V (or even less) can give a shock which is noticeable. (One can even feel 1.5 V from an AAA battery if one puts the wires on the tongue)

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 01 Apr 2012 20:33

I have talked about Majorana Fermions in this thread. Here is a very interesting article about this in NY times. These particles are their own anti particles...

A Feynman diagram of an encounter between a Romney and an anti-Romney. The resulting collision annihilates both, leaving behind a single electron and a $20 bill

For more read: A Quantum Theory of Mitt Romney

Mitt is the first quantum politician...

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 01 Apr 2012 21:54

Amber G. wrote:Keep in mind, if the things are wet, even 50V (or even less) can give a shock which is noticeable. (One can even feel 1.5 V from an AAA battery if one puts the wires on the tongue)

Hmm..I tried that during my school years. I also tried this with coaxial cable coming from the wall and going to TV...leaves noticeable effect.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 02 Apr 2012 20:22

...hmm..I may be giving away my age but in old days to check galvanometer's movement (these were measuring devices, before digital electronics or transistors were introduced, which measured very small amount of electric current/voltage) one used to touch the two wires on tongue. .. and make sure that the string (actually hose-hair) and mirrors were not tangled..

Check out this image:

Or check out, for example this article in wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_galvanometer

(Seriously, string galvanometers were in use in university physics lab in India even in middle or late 60's

... tongue can not only "taste" small electric voltage, it can also generate small electric voltage)

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 03 Apr 2012 10:36

x post ..
Even stranger than my sanskrit slokas being dissed here...
My example of Banana equivalent dose of radiation being taken too seriously in Japan ..

No it is not April fools joke.. and no I am not making it up..

Taza khabar from Forbes ...
(The original head line..)

Japan Bans Bananas: From the Annals of Government Stupidity

From Forbes ..

It would seem that in the wake of the Fukushima disaster (you know, that nuclear disaster that hasn’t killed anyone at all and which will have such a small effect that we’ll never know whether it ever will) that the Japanese government has just decided to ban bananas.

Interesting part, the values (in Bq/Kg) are consistent with what I have estimated here in Brf.. Interesting part is they could have asked any ordinary physicist ...K40 in banana happens to be radioactive!

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 08 Apr 2012 02:45

Fang Lizhi, a brilliant astrophysicist died today. (After CN Yang or TD Lee, perhaps the best known Chinese origin physicist in US)
Chinese Physicist and Seminal Dissident, Dies at 76

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 10 Apr 2012 01:26

Physics humor. .. (xpost)
Paying attention to units is vital ...
Quoting from the following text book (Once used for a Physics course in Harvard) Introduction to Classical Mechanics

Your units are wrong! cried the teacher.
Your church weighs six joules — what a feature!
And the people inside
Are four hours wide,
And eight gauss away from the preacher!

Added later: Wrt to Neela's: " back of the envelope kind calculations..."

Same book also has this wisdom ...

The skill to do math on a page
Has declined to the point of outrage.
Equations quadratica
Are solved on Math'matica,
And on birthdays we don't know our age.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 14 Apr 2012 01:35

wrt to Majorana fermions (quasi particles) (I mentioned presentation at last APS meeting - see my post around March 7) paper posted on arXiv yesterday ..
http://arxiv.org/abs/1204.2792
Here is the abstract:
Majorana fermions are particles identical to their own antiparticles. They have been theoretically predicted to exist in topological superconductors. We report electrical measurements on InSb nanowires contacted with one normal (Au) and one superconducting electrode (NbTiN). Gate voltages vary electron density and define a tunnel barrier between normal and superconducting contacts. In the presence of magnetic fields of order 100 mT, we observe bound, mid-gap states at zero bias voltage. These bound states remain fixed to zero bias even when magnetic fields and gate voltages are changed over considerable ranges. Our observations support the hypothesis of Majorana fermions in nanowires coupled to superconductors.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 15 Apr 2012 04:55

Amber G. wrote:Fang Lizhi, a brilliant astrophysicist died today. (After CN Yang or TD Lee, perhaps the best known Chinese origin physicist in US)
Chinese Physicist and Seminal Dissident, Dies at 76

I saw this news while on travel, and thoughts went to the brief time spent in a shared taxi within Fermilab during grad school days. Cannot remember much of the conversation, but once he introduced himself humbly I guessed who he was since the name was often in the headline news of dissidents from China.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 15 Apr 2012 22:07

^^^ Interesting. Thanks for sharing.
Main stream media, now are putting the news about Majorana Fermions (See my post around March 7, and few more posts later)

Here is the story from BBC: Majorana particle glimpsed in lab

Details about the story in Science Magazine (same as arxiv article I posted) http://www.sciencemag.org/content/early ... ce.1222360

Related story in BBC :Quantum computing: Is it possible, and should you care?

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 15 Apr 2012 23:20

Man uses physics to fight $400 traffic ticket

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 16 Apr 2012 04:50

^^^ BTW one of my friend, a Univ of Wisconsin physicist, tried to use a similar argument when he got a ticket for not stopping at a stop sign. His tried to present the argument that, lowest point of his tyre was at rest.. IIRC the argument did not work

Also, heard (don't know if he was serious) that the paper used in the above argument is going to be posted in arxiv..

Added later:http://arxiv.org/abs/1204.0162v1

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 19 Apr 2012 01:47

http://motls.blogspot.com/2012/04/do-ne ... grand.html
Do neutrino patterns hint at SO(10) grand unification?
( Interesting and long article but not in simple English)

Rabindra Mohapatra is among the phenomenologists who seem to be convinced that the detailed properties of the neutrinos, together with some previously known characteristics of charged leptons and quarks, make the grand unification, especially one based on the SO(10) gauge group, much more likely than it was before. Why grand unification is sensibleIt's Tuesday so let us begin. The Standard Model of particle physics describes three non-gravitational interactions: electromagnetism, the weak nuclear force, and the strong nuclear force. Electromagnetism came from the unification of electricity and magnetism in the 19th century. The strong nuclear force holds quarks bound together inside the protons and neutrons and the residual force is still enough to keep protons and neutrons together in the nuclei. The weak nuclear force is only know from the beta decays.The gravitational interaction is a bit different – and much weaker than the three forces above. It is linked to the metric tensor gμν describing the spacetime geometry. The spin of the resulting particles is j=2, higher than j=1 that the photons, gluons, W-bosons, and Z-bosons carry, and I will not discuss gravity in this text.

Kannan · Post by **Kannan** » 19 Apr 2012 01:57

Bade wrote:As regard shutting down the Tevatron early ( as per some), the inside rumour mill claims were if Higgs was actually discovered at a significance to claim full discovery at the Tevatron, then DOE would have been hard pressed with reasons for supporting LHC experiments. In fact it had already invested heavily in LHC experiments by then !

Plausible story, but no one in their sane mind is going to vouch for it, if already on DOE grant money.

Not really much of an inside rumor mill, people just saw it coming a long time ahead and almost bought into the thinking. Funding was (from my perspective of NSCL/FRIB at MSU) given at the beginning of an experimental cycle, and you burned through it till it ran out, then you fixed/repaired radiation damage etc. and waited till the next cycle began. It was pretty obvious early on that FNAL wasn't part of the DoE's strategic long term plans.

I worked a pretty boring and unimportant role for a D0 collaborator and the competition was more between D0 and CDF than FNAL vs LHC. Of course that was half a decade ago and now FNAL people are pretty pissed off/disappointed that the US is divesting from science. My employer at the time had half its resources dedicated to both competing groups, and both of them began moving their work over to LHC a long, long time ago. The fate of the Superconducting Super Collider (that India invested in significantly) made them wise up faster.