Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 17 Mar 2012 21:16

Atri wrote:The buffering capacity of Dharma only pushes the impending disaster ahead, giving more time to mend ways and achieve dharmik and just all round development everywhere. When Dharma is mixed with Abrahmic operating system OR communist operating system owing to such mass-migrations, the buffering capacity is too low (in comparison) and we should know that the flash-point is fast approaching, as it happened in 1947..

if you take mahabharatha as an example, pandavas were willing to settle to 1-village. i guess it has to come to that for the final great war.

Samudragupta · Post by **Samudragupta** » 18 Mar 2012 19:37

Shivji,

Its a fascinating thread that actually raises some critical questions, its not that we didn't knew some of these issues..but at the end of the day actually we all are comfortable with the status quo....Just some of the points i want to raise.....

1. If the GOI is prepared to handle the Pakistanis with Kid gloves, then have they decided how to handle their demographic surge which will continue upto 2045...is GOI prepared to take the responsibilty for the HDI growth of the PAkistanis?

2. If the GOI seems to have made a strategic decision to enter Afghanistan and Crentral Asia through Iran...doesn't it mean that GOI does not expect to reach CAS through Punjab?

3. If the Americans are booted out of the Hindukush region which eventually they will be...but does the GOI have the capability to control the sequence of events that will unfold thereafter?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Mar 2012 05:07

Bji, Another way of looking at TSP is thru the prism of Orientalism. Let me explain myself.
Edward Said says the West defines itself as not the Orient. It doesn't say what it is but says what its not. Similarly, TSP, as a product of the Western interlude in the Orient, says that within the Orient, its not India. Its thus claiming to be closer to the West while being in the Orient. In Derrida terms, its a duality or binary proposition of
West : Orient= TSP : India.

Maybe its this false analogy that appealed to the Anglo-Saxon West for no others fell for this caper.

Doing this it ignores the vast shades of differences in itself and thus will eventually fail

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Apr 2012 21:37

Bji and Lalmohan, We need to think of Post jihadi Pakistan and how to transform it.

Examples are post Hitler Germany and post Communist Soviet Russia.

Germany took ~ 50 years to get there 1945 to 1995. All along there were cases of lurkinng Nazis in Europe and North and South America. De Nazification took two generations to die out. Didnt help that Cold War allowed some of them to survive in the superdoms.
Same way Gul types will take shelter in KSA.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 08 Apr 2012 22:20

ramana wrote:
A country for minorities
Moh Sin Ham Id

Even then, British India did not necessarily have to become just two countries with a burning enmity: India and Pakistan. It could as easily have been split into several: perhaps a northwestern country that included not just current Pakistan but also the Indian-controlled part of Kashmir and Indian Punjab, as Jinnah himself had wanted; a northeastern country centred around a unified Bangladesh and Indian Bengal; and a variety of other countries between them and to their south.Each of these countries would have contained large minorities of all kinds. But each could quite possibly have been more manageable and easier to govern than either post-partition India or the united Pakistan that included both our present country and what is now Bangladesh.

The writer sees his Temporary State of Pakistan unravelleing and whishes the same for India.

This concept of minority and minority rights are only with the fascist ideology such as Islamist ideology. The Pakistani authors get carried away thinking that rest of the world thinks that way and it has to be in the region including India.
He even comments on Indian govt and stability of India when they have not seen anything in thoir own country

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 09 Apr 2012 01:21

ramana ji,
you are hinting at an interesting possibility. If you parallel the Soviet bloc hold on east Germany with the western hold on Pakiland, then we might be in the early 80's stage. Question is, a very large portion of East Germans wanted to join up with their bros across the wall, and wanted to distance themselves from the Soviets.

If we look at current scenario in Pak - if we only look at the western occupation of Pakiland [jointly with Saudi purelanders] - this is close to the German situation. However, if we look at the Gulf+Saudi as the occupants of Pakiland, then the scenario overturns in the opposite direction. Even if purer landers absolutely detest them, Pakilanders dream ambition is to be accepted by the purer landers and not to their real roots to the east.

Is a post-Zihadi scenario possible? Definitely. But before the Dawaist networks are wiped off? It can only become a primitive version of BD at this stage.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 09 Apr 2012 02:04

brihaspati wrote: Is a post-Zihadi scenario possible? Definitely. But before the Dawaist networks are wiped off? It can only become a primitive version of BD at this stage.

Real changes will come after 2035. The real post-Zihadi will come after 2065

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Apr 2012 02:06

In 1940 at height of Nazi Germany it seemed impossible that Hitler would be defeated. In 1944 the horrors of Holocaust brought revulsion against NAzi Germans and no one could think that the Germans fifty years hence would be recivlized.

After 911 Pakistan and radical Islam are at the same Nazi threshold. Just as Nazism is an intellectual bankruptcy which drives it adherents to inhumanity, radical Islam is also driving its adherents to absurd cruelty.

So I was thinking how did the Germans step back from the abyss and become recivilized? I think they emphasized Insaaniyaat or love for fellow man and confronted the devil in Nazism.

Bji, I thought its imperative to think about post Jihadi TSP as all the efforts of the fake seculars, WKK et al., is to preserve the Jihadi memes of the Pakis and nurture it under the misguided idea that its interference in internal affairs of Pakistan. The UN Charter and other liberal ideas were ideal state constructs and not for a Jihadified state that spreads its bile everywhere.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 09 Apr 2012 02:12

ramana wrote:In 1940 at height of Nazi Germany it seemed impossible that Hitler would be defeated. In 1944 the horrors of Holocaust brought revulsion against NAzi Germans and no one could think that the Germans fifty years hence would be recivlized. After 911 Pakistan and radical Islam are at the same Nazi threshold. Just as Nazism is an intellectual bankruptcy which drives it adherents to inhumanity radical Islam is also driving its adherents to absurd cruelty. So I was thinking how did the Germans step back from the abyss and become recivilized? I think they emphasized Insaaniyaat or love for fellow man and confronted the devil in Nazism.

Not much perception of difference in race, religion then within Germany. Surely you know that now the strongest neo-nazi and racist tendencies have resurfaced exactly from ex-East Germany. Immigrants [of Oiropean origin] have expressed to me that they are desperate to move out to the western part. They also have retained certain features that are continuations from the commie days - which in current troubled times appear to be quite popular, like creche/nursery facilities for example which are more "socialistic" there compared to the western sector.

Unified Germany is more "nazi" than divided one.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 09 Apr 2012 02:21

ramana wrote:In 1940 at height of Nazi Germany it seemed impossible that Hitler would be defeated. In 1944 the horrors of Holocaust brought revulsion against NAzi Germans and no one could think that the Germans fifty years hence would be recivlized.

So I was thinking how did the Germans step back from the abyss and become recivilized? I think they emphasized Insaaniyaat or love for fellow man and confronted the devil in Nazism.
.

What happened to the rest of the population in Europe after WWII. What happened to the nature of monarchy and imperial kingdoms after WWII. That is what they were aiming for when they went to war in WWII.
The idea of liberation and being anti fascist and support for a UN based global system was spread as a result of the atrocities of the Hitler Wars

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 09 Apr 2012 02:29

I think Nazism is a narrative best examined independently of current western revisionism.

Nazism has been deliberately left unexamined by the west. It is something that is too revelatory and confirmatory, that is it informs the present how the white Christian nations saw themselves as the most fit cultures in the social Darwinism and eugenics ideas sweeping the white world at the time and had been percolating for the previous 50 years. Nazism was the logical and inevitable result of Christian beliefs and colonialist prerogative, only the latter was now applied to the less superior breeds of other European countries.

There was widespread sympathy for Hitler in America. The turning away of Jewish refugee ships from Canada with the comment that one Jew was too many was consistent with the position of the Vatican, a collaboration with Nazism that has spawned not one scholarly work. Nazism was the culmination of a self congratulatory, self aggrandising cult of Christian believers.

It is not a coincidence that the most ardent heretics have been western Europeans, the very same people who were most immediately exposed to Christian German high culture. I don't know if they have given up on Wagner but they gave up Christ in a hurry.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 09 Apr 2012 02:51

Yesterday, I saw a lesbian couple openly affectionate, here in a large Canadian city.They both were hearing impaired and used sign language. One was blonde, the other Ethiopian. They would have provided three excellent reasons for Germans to gas them.

This is the same country that turned away those Jewish refugees 68 years ago. That is why I choose to live here. The time is coming when this beastly past will be examined.

I believe Hitler and Gandhi both fundamentally recalibrated the west, from very different approaches.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Apr 2012 02:52

Sanjaykumar, Thanks for your insight. Yes nazism has not been studied for its religious undertones and was a sin foisted on the Germans in particular and Italians as second rung fascists. It ignores the role of Austrians, the Scandinavians(A whole slew of them), Spanish(Franco) and Portuguese(Salazar) and Eastern Europeans(Hungary and Romania in particular) who gleefully participated in creating a new Christianity without the Jews.

The parallel to radical Islamism is it too thinks tha followers of Islam are also the culmination of the Prophetic message and as the most fit among the believers. While it doesn't have social Darwinism as its basis it does have religious Darwinism as its corner stone. So while they are different at a surface level, they are the same exclusivist dogmas.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 09 Apr 2012 03:35

1. The Church never seriously tried to save Jews from the Nazis. In fact, they made their own anti-Semitic comments regularly.

2. Mango Germans did not show any great concern for the Jews. At best, they were nonchalant and oblivious to their problems.

I would say similar statements can be made for the Islamists.

I have heard that Tony Judt's book on post-war Europe is a masterpiece. Unfortunately, I have not read it yet.

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 09 Apr 2012 04:08

I am late to this topic.

I read Rudradev initial post here and it is an interesting read. But I am not sure if that has much relevance today (I don't mean that pejoratively to his thesis in anyway from a historical perspective)

Today the greater threat to India is from the American Southern Baptist evangelicals.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 09 Apr 2012 04:50

One of our biggest failures in understanding non-Indian intents - especially to our west - is that we separate out the branches of the Abrahamic that we should not separate out, while we conflate those we should not.

The two branches we should not see as separate or independent, are the Christian and the Islamic, while we should keep Juadism separate from these two. We can go into theological, historical as well as political roots of why I say so, but will be OT for this thread.

Very briefly, the model that explains the twists and turns of the first two in my list, is that of a Freudian Oedipus complex and father-son rivalry in the ideological domain. The Judaic is the father, the Abrahamic root the mother, and the Christian the elder sibling while Islam the junior. The siblings have a raging sibling rivalry over their heirloom, and they both hate the existence of the father as barrier to accessing the mother. Note, that perhaps not entirely ironically, Freud comes from Jewish origins, and the Church as an abstract entity is considered the "mother" by theologians. As long as the father exists the siblings cannot claim the mother as their own entirely.

Thus when we look at modern EJ's and think that they are worse than Paki Islamists - we are being fooled by external symptoms of the sibling rivalry. We are overjoyed at any and all symbolic friction in our enemy and think that it represents a fundamental contradiction where we the non-Abrahamic are concerned.

Over emphasis on Christianism as a threat of graver depth than Islamism will be a fatal blunder. They will use each other to enhance their respective agenda, where the "pagan" is concerned. At this stage, Christianism is bound by its own pretensions of morality and ethics, which forces it to do things under the quilt - so to speak. In contrast, Islamism in its texts has provided every excuse possible for every atrocity and deception that might be needed - and hence needs much greater vigilance and efforts to defeat. We can for some decades use Christianism's own moral claims against itself. Islamism on the other hand offers us no such gap.

Pakis cannot be trusted for any of their gestures or moves, as long as Dawaists remain among them. Christianism or no Christianism, southern baptism or not - no possibility of lowering our guards comparatively towards Islamists, if we really want to anticipate the future.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Apr 2012 08:57

Bji, Bikul satya vachan!!!

Hitler did write of the need to connect with mother Mary and discard Joseph the father.

Yes its a four member family with Oedipus complex raging.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 09 Apr 2012 12:27

ramana wrote:how did the Germans step back from the abyss and become recivilized? I think they emphasized Insaaniyaat or love for fellow man and confronted the devil in Nazism.

They blamed it all on one guy (who committed suicide) and then chupchaap carried on their lives. With time, they regrew and are now the powerhouse of EU and hence Devatas. Hitler did a huge favor on Church, Germans, and whole range of other complicit people (including brits). If Hitler were caught alive and made to sing in courts, it would have been the ideal situation.

Whom will Islamists have to sacrifice? HOKO or MO or Both? Of course pre-requisite here is again the same as I mentioned in deracination dhaga.. creation of such a societal pressure that abduls are forced to blame it all on someone, else face extinction OR worse, excommunication (Bahishkar) by comity of people.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Apr 2012 21:18

Good thinking. Keep it coming.

Meanwhile two posts on 10%'s visit.

SSridhar wrote:Zardari's India visit was for two purposes. One was to bolster the image of Bilawal before the upcoming elections. Zardari was after all a stop gap until Bilawal came of age and the baptism for the Bhutto family is always the Indian fire and that has happened. Second is to announce some grand India concession to the Pakistani masses, which is the only sure-shot thing that could turn around the sinking fortunes of PPP in 2013. Unless it is Kashmir, the turnaround cannot be substantial for Zardari. Indian leaders are again being misled the path that somehow supporting Zardari at this stage would keep at bay Imran Khan and his jihadi entourage. The only chance of keeping Imran Khan away from the gaddi is if PPP & PML-N somehow sink their differences once again like how they did in c. 2007. This cannot happen now because of the animosity that has once again engulfed their relationship. Therefore, Zardari's last chance in retaining a significant position for PPP in the Parliament, even if it were not to help him retain power, lies with Man Mohan Singh and he should have really pleaded with him during the 40-minute one-on-one. Zardari has so far shown that he knows the art of surviving.

The PA is *not* going to stage a coup, not in the foreseeable future. This knowledge has given Zardari & Co a never-before-opportunity of not being afraid of the PA. Every time there was a coup in the past, the Pakistani masses welcomed it, at least initially though the novelty wore off soon. They will not do it now. Besides, the 3½ friends will make the situation even worse for Pakistan if a coup happens. Kayani sensed the mood of the people in c. 2008 itself and decided to stay away from coup misadventure. Apart from its traditional hatred for the Bhutto clan, the PA was thwarted somewhat in its usual back-seat driving by the PPP. The latter has been resisting, sometimes successfully and many times not, the PA's hold on power. But, even unsuccessful efforts are worthy of a congratulation, considering Pakistan's history. The PPP will not tame the PA for they neither have the clout nor the full backing of the US yet for such a thing to happen and anyway,not much time is left. Kayani has been trying to garner political support from China now that the US is no longer unflinchingly backing PA anymore in domestic politics. Zardari has been taking advantage of the PA's predicament and trying to gain as much as possible against it. I am not sure if Zardari is fighting the PA because he truly believes that it is taking Pakistan to doom and he needs to correct that course or whether he is simply settling scores of the Bhutto clan and his own personal one for the incarceration and physical abuse at Attock for years. He may be selling the former line to the likes of Obama and Man Mohan Singh while his real intention is the latter.

The PA has therefore formed the Diffa (DPC) and placed a popular civilian face for the PM's position in the form of Imran Khan, a face that they feel could be acceptable to the various stakeholders such as the citizens of Pakistan, the PA, the jihadis, the Islamists and the 3½ friends. Their tactical brilliance is leading to a very dangerous situation not only for the entire Pakistan, but also certainly for India and Afghanistan, China and the so-called Western world. In c. 2002, Musharraf formed the MMA and made them capture power in NWFP. We know that the Al Qaeda and Allied Movements, the Afghan Taliban, the TTP and the Punjabi Taliban got entrenched in FATA and even in settled areas there from where they cannot be dislodged easily anymore. The same scenario will repeat, but on a much grander scale, if the new jihadi alliance gains power federally. Willy nilly, even the judiciary is collaborating in this evil project.

No doubt that at this moment, the US is the most hated nation for the Pakis, even surpassing Hindu India. The PA wanted to slander Zardari by depicting him as a US stooge and enacted the Memogate scandal, but it has not been very successful after the initial excitement. PPP has cleverly formed a committee (PCNS) to formulate Pakistan's foreign policy vis-a-vis the US so that it does not have to take the flak from either side. It, however, missed a golden opportunity to bring down a few notches the H&D of the PA after Abbottabad when it meekly accepted the excuses given by the PA/ISI, refused to accept the resignation of Lt. Gen. Shuaja Pasha and formed a committee instead (including PA officers) that has diluted the blame on the PA/ISI and exonerated them. May be we can only speculate that Kayani & Pasha threatened Zardari/Gilani with some skeletons in their cupboard.

What is interesting to be seen is whether the PA's tactical brilliance would restore its image and the power to the pre-2002 days of glory, after the elections next year (or later this year). If Imran gets to power, which it looks he would unless Man Mohan Singh dramatically swings the fortunes of Zardari, the PA may be even sidelined by the Wahhabi/Deobandi/Salafi groups. However, PA might entertain the ideas of splitting the DPC (Diffa-e-Pakistan Council) just as it has always done in the past whenever its proxies became too big for their shoes. There are certainly some faultlines within the DPC but none starker than that between the LeT and most other groups. They may all unite to dislodge Zardari or protect Professor saheb today against the American bounty, but that does not hide the divisions. The PA might hope to engineer a split using these faultlines, when needed after achieving their immediate goal. Ultimately, it will be the guile of Hamid Gul (the strategic adviser to AQAM) against incumbent DG, ISI Lt. Gen. Zaheer-ul-Islam.

and

Philip wrote:Shiv,Sridhar,other who have touched upon this point are quite right.There IS a sea chhange in Pak at this moment.For once it is not India who is public enemy No.1 in Pak but the US of A! Pak's long-time bumchum and sugar uncle,who thanks to his drone strikes and the taking out of Psama "the Sheikh",the Islamist superhero,has enraged the Paki in uniform and in the street. In fact the perceived (im) potency of our snake-oil mendicant and hs regime,has helped to reinforce this supposition.

However,it is a double-edge sword and very dangerus game to play,as we all know what happened in '65,when Ayub Khan thought he could repeat a "Chinese take-away" of Kashmir (no. '62 on the menu).The state of the IA as revealed to the world,must surely gladden the hearts of the ungodly.As long as the US remains militarily in Af-Pak with its poklicy of taking out Talib and Al-Q leaders through drone strikes and other covert tricks,it will remain in the public image as the "Great Satan" as Khomeini described it.India's great danger is that with pressure applied upon our endangered species "PM" (aka "plasticene man"),by Uncle Sam,we may give away even beore sitting at the table with Pak,more than what Pak even wants from us!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Apr 2012 21:39

If we map the circles of power in TSP to essentials, intermediarles and the selectorate. The essentials are the TSPA kabila guards. The intermediaries are a mix of politicial elites:PPP, PML of varoisu factions and Imran Khan etc. The selectorate is the pak mango people or aam abduls.

The establishment runs of support from US, PRC and KSA in that order. However of these three the main supporter is US. The removal of support from either of the oterh two wont destabilize the establishment.

Aftre 9/11, 2008 meltdown, hiding OBL in Abbotabad etc, the US basis for feeding the monster is getting shaky. If the next four years revival of US economy will hopefully reduce the PRC economic clout too making their commitment oo TSP not so firm. (This could be a reason for the PRC advice to 10% and TSP to get with India while MMS is sitll in charge as he seeks some signal to claim progress for UPA! UPAII will be the last babucracy govt. Next one no matter who comes to power will be politicians.)

Keeping PPP in power keeps the semblance of a united nation state as everything else is Pakjabi.

So I don't see the PPP getting dislodged or changed out till US cuts the economic umbilicial to the TSPA.
Then it will be like Egypt during Mubarak's last days or Shah of Iran, Philipines and other US friendly dictators.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 09 Apr 2012 22:01

Just watching Ahmed rashed on AF pak. He was saying TSP is at odds with every neighbour. Both kayani and civvies turned up in Beijing for money. Beijing refused to provide budgetary support and if they did, they wanted it for their own benefit.

He was saying that even if TSPA was to take over, the people won't support it. He painted a picture of poor economic development in pak, hasn't changed in the last 30 years. People want to start trading with all their neighbours including India.

AR suggests that US has to basically force the change on TSPA. He also thinks that Taliban initiated talks with US because they dont think they can unite the afghan people/nation. This is quite revealing.

Problem is this crisis with Iran and Yemen, as well as Egypt has basically forced KSA to open up their coffers to pak. They have no where else to turn. Hence why last year bandar bin sultan travelled to pak and okayed what pak had requested in terms of economic support. Most of this support was curtailed up until then.

Zardari is at odds with TSPA, as it's obvious to see. 130 soldiers dead and he is lunching with MMS.
Well TSPA planned a coup, Zardari planned a counter coup as memo gate revealed.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 09 Apr 2012 22:03

I have one question.

I understand why the RAPE and the maulanas do not think of it, but why dont the true, pious Talepan think of taking the land of two mosques away from the Saudis?

After all there are more Muslims in the Indian sub-continent than any where else. Right now they are at the base of the Islamic class totem-pole and are treated as such by the Araps. However, unlike the Araps, the TFTAs have the bomb, their Fizzle-Ya pilots have defeated the Israelis, their soldiers and SSG go and guard the Saudi Royal family, ityadi.

Why doesnt it strike them them that instead of being tatta-chookers, they could also be the rulers of those lands, with all the oil wealth and everything else it brings? Why is all their energy is devoted towards the East, when the real prize and true wealth & glory, lies in the West?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Apr 2012 22:17

VikramS, Welcome back. Glad you asked the question about Pak ambitions visavis KSA.

Zia-ullo-Haq used to have a map of Central Asian FSU, Afghanistan, TSP and parts of North India as the new Khilafat. No Iran as they know the Persian meme is strong.

Hamid Gul used to talk of a new Medina (political center) located in TSP.

They know they can't replace Mecca but sure would like to claim a new Medina.

But to get there they need to swallow Afghanistan which turned out to be toad instead of frog.

If you map the polticial center of Islam : Medina(Arabia), Mecca (Arabia), Damascus (Syria), Baghdad( Iraq-Iran), Istanbul(Turkey) it has been wavering in the Middle East.

Even when the Mughals were rich and powerful they still couldn't claim the new center.

So in the Islamic mind it still is in Asian Middle East.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Apr 2012 05:15

X-post...

brihaspati wrote:In my models of potential Paki tactics, for some time, a curious blip has been occurring. This is a section of TSPA related sources trying to play up to Russia. Here is an example from public domain, with various interesting aspects of who has published it, and what such a publication implies more than the content.

http://english.pravda.ru/world/americas ... rld_war-0/
by Nadir Mir, 26 March, 2012.

An Intra European conflict may be brewing for leadership of Europe. Even as US - NATO alliance conflicts with the dialectic alliance Russia - China.

US Geo strategy has been embroiled in Afghanistan and Iraq, but now seeks to extend the war to Iran - Pakistan. Of course the real war is against Russia - China, the opposing alliance.
[...]
American politics for 2012 and the Presidential Elections are upping the war ante (forcing President Obama to strike Iran or support Israel in doing so) or risk losing his reelection. Delhi seeks US Power to denuke, balkanize, deIslamize Pakistan, before US departure from Afghanistan region. Israel is straining on the leash before Iran develops the Nuclear Arsenal. This will change the strategic balance followed by Nuclear Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and Egypt etc.

In Afghanistan US seeks to retain a (25000 strong force) SOF/Air Force for denuclearization of Iran - Pakistan. It may seek independence of Baluchistan (with Indian support.) A clash with Pakistan is likely though not inevitable. Delhi wants to use American Power to fight Pakistan (but absurdly believes it can escape the nuclear conflagration). The war with Iran is even nearer 2012. US - NATO may attack Iran followed by Pakistan or both together. An Israeli attack on Iran is even more likely and Indian attack on Pakistan (Cold Start) always remains a possibility.

Russia - China are Allies against US - NATO Geo strategy (Iran and Pakistan are joining this alliance but also the Battle Space.) China is rising economically, Russia is resurgent strategically. After Iraq, Afghanistan, they have seen Libya humbled by NATO power. The US -NATO model of regime change by sponsoring local militants - Northern Alliance in Afghanistan, in Libya (NATO trained anti Gaddafi Rebels), Syria (Syrian Rebels plus ex Libyan Rebels ) In Iran (non Persian ethnic groups, anti regime Diaspora ) in Pakistan (instead of regime change, keeping pliant puppets in power, or sponsoring Baluch rebels against Pakistan.) In Russia, President Putin himself has accused the US of instigating opponents of United Russia. In China, using India for fermenting trouble in Xinjiang, Tibet etc. All this is unifying the alliance of Heart land powers Russia -China and critical Rim land state actors Iran - Pakistan into an Anti US - NATO alliance. But events are moving too fast. The Mayan Prophesy of 2012 catastrophic year approaches. US - NATO-India clash with Pakistan or US - NATO- Israel clash with Iran will lead by default or design to multi regional war going Global.

The combined Geopolitical space of Pakistan - Afghanistan -Iran - Iraq (backed by) Russia - China is beyond the US - NATO reach (It has already over reached) Putin's reported warning to his generals, 'Prepare for Armageddon', must be taken seriously. Putin is a great leader in the tradition of Russian History. China has already alerted its Navy in the Pacific. North Korea can always do the unpredictable, more so now with the young Kim in power!

US - NATO war against Iran could be catastrophic, but against Pakistan it could be dooms day! US - NATO may have Turkish/Saudi support against Syria but in Pakistan's case both Saudi Arabia - Turkey will support Pakistan. In factWar against Pakistan is very complicated plus suicidal!
Note the tone of desperation, and an underlying panic stricken call to Putin in typical Paki bootlicking fashion. The paranoid aspects of TSPA thinking should also be noted - with their paranormal or supernatural beliefs.

Most interesting are the six reasons provided as to why "war on Pakistan" should not be undertaken.

Firstly Pakistan is neither threatening nor attacking anybody. It is on high moral ground, despite US - propaganda on militants to nuke insecurity!

Secondly Pakistan will be defended by its Soldiers and People. (190 million despite US - Indian attempts to divide them on different lines).

Thirdly Pakistan will defend itself at any level - sub conventional (asymmetrical), conventional (armed forces) above conventional (nuclear -WMD)

Fourthly There will be no foreign inspired civil war in Pakistan. Pakistanis are united to defend the mother land. Even militants are on the wane or will fight foreign invaders. A few Baluch rebels are being instigated by Delhi - Neocons. (The Baluch should be appeased by Islamabad). All major and minor political parties and people want an end to the Afghan War and peace in Pakistan.

Fifthly Iran, China, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Russia will support Pakistan even for different Geopolitical reasons.

Sixthly A low intensity war in Geopolitical black hole of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq will defeat US - NATO (with war weary public, declining economy at home). A perfect catastrophe! A conventional war, more so on two fronts for Pakistan (US - NATO strike in the west, and Indian Cold Start in the east) will quickly reach nuclear threshold. If Pakistan is being destroyed by enemy fire power plus nukes it will strike back into India and attacking forces / region. Loose nukes from a destroyed Pakistan could explode in Israel - western cities leading to a nuclear retaliation chain cycle. The war going Global, nuclear destructive and radioactive. The Russian view that attack on Pakistan with lead to Thermonuclear War was in this context.

A war the US led NATO cannot win. With hundreds of millions or billions dead only a sick, demented man could term it as a victory. The real winner of the Second World War was USA whose homeland was untouched, and rose to become the sole super power. If there are any victors, it would be Russia - China unless the war involves them directly (something which the globalists hope to achieve - lure Russia - China by attacking Iran).

The Arab Spring - Muslim World would revolt in Anti Americanism as war with Iran - Pakistan and carnage becomes apparent. The western homeland and initiators of attack will be burnt by the flames they help ignite themselves (albeit radioactive fires).

What should be noted is that this article comes from an ex-TSPA man [or claiming to be so], is allowed to be published on pravda.rus website. True to its roots, either a pravda editor has given a Marxian spin by introducing the words "dialectical" [which would be strange since Marxians would rarely use it in this context] but more likely by the Paki himself - which is a curious indication that the pakis will adopt any lingo - commie if necessary to win a new client in its prostitution game.

The TSPA is expecting a war this year, if it does not happen on its own - they would like to precipitate one soon over the next couple of years. TSPA has run out of options, and it needs a war to justify its existence. But at the same time it needs the assurance that its skin will be saved by Russia and China.

Somewhere, this means that TSPA cannot rely on its nukes for survival.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 10 Apr 2012 10:31

Thanks ramana ji. I am just in for desserts...

Wonder if that idea can receive some air-time. It will require them to accept some truths about their history so their rage can be directed at those who truly ravished them.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Apr 2012 21:31

ramana wrote: http://english.pravda.ru/world/americas ... rld_war-0/
by Nadir Mir, 26 March, 2012.

Nadir of intellect?

2012 onwards, the world is on the brink of Third World War. All sane and peace loving men would pray and strive that it is averted

If war breaks out Pakistan will be saved. The problem is if war does not break out. Bakistan will remain unsaved. Which is better? A destroyed world without Pakistan? Or a world with Pakistan imagining that it is intact? LOL!

This cretin writes:

Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq will defeat US - NATO (with war weary public, declining economy at home)

Let me remind you what the Monkey in the image below "General" Javid Nasir wrote in feb-mar 1999 before the Kargil war
http://defencejournal.com/feb-mar99/chief-bluff.htm

I say with all the authority and professionalism that 'THE INDIAN ARMY IS INCAPABLE OF UNDERTAKING ANY CONVENTIONAL OPERATIONS AT PRESENT WHAT TO TALK OF ENLARGING CONVENTIONAL CONFLICT'

Once a Paki always a moron.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 10 Apr 2012 23:24

New wave of well-off Pakistani women drawn to conservative Islam

All the women working in the information technology division of the Bank of Punjab's headquarters in the western Pakistani city of Lahore wear headscarves tightly wound around their cheeks and chin, framing their faces as they tap at their keyboards. A year or so ago not one covered their heads with the hijab.

"I was the first," says 28-year-old Shumaila, as she waited with some impatience in the city's iStore for her new £800 Apple MacBook to be loaded with the software she had ordered.

"I started reading the Qur'an properly and praying five times a day. No one made me wear the hijab. That would be impossible," she laughs brightly. "I showed the way to the other girls at work."

They are not alone. Though there are no statistics and most evidence is anecdotal, a new wave of interest in more conservative strands of Islam among wealthier and better educated women in Pakistan appears clear.

It is part of a broader cultural and religious shift seen in the country over decades but which observers say has accelerated in the past 10 years.

"The other girls who were working with us left." Shumaila said. "They found the new environment a bit unfriendly."

One indication of the trend is the growing proportion of women within the conservative religious political organisation Jamaat-e-Islami (JI). Syed Munawar Hassan, the leader of JI in Pakistan, said that women made up an increasing proportion of the organisation's 6 million members and 30,000 organisers. "Our women's wing is doing very well," he said. "They are some of our best organisers."

"People who grew up within the war on terror are asking, what does it mean to be a Nato ally? Is India our worst enemy? We are bombarded by all this information and there is a deep need for answers. That leads to religious inquiry," Jehangir said.

Amna, a 21-year-old business student whose father was a manager for a major firm in Saudi Arabia, said that it was wrong to think that women who were richer or more educated would inevitably be more secular.

"Everything we learn comes from the Qur'an. Maths, computers, banking – the Qur'an contains everything," said Amna

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Apr 2012 00:17

Well let her open a beauty parlor first.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Apr 2012 08:13

X-post...

ramana wrote:
vdutta wrote:It has been bothering me since last few days. what did they talk in 10 min "private and one to one meeting" between zardari and MMS. in fact what can you talk in 10 mins. its hardly any time to discuss even your hair style. and why private meeting? why cant they talk in front of their aides.
may be zardari wanted to talk about his inability to control the army or brought a confidential message from his establishment.
or did he bring some document to exchange with singh which he couldnt have done through establishment monitored official channels?

The Indian PMs' ego gets stroked by these one-on-one meetings. Makes them feel Wazir -e- Alam of Hindusthan

The Pakis go on to claim whatever they want and US experts rush in to back them. So lets see what 10% will claim as agreed to in those 10 minutes.

Another thing is the Pak rulers think its still the Shah en shah in Dilli. There periodic wars are like bhagawat against the Dilli Padshah and getting Western help to preclude the padshahi insaaf.
Every Pak leader wants the one on one with Indian PM to show to his people that only he can negotiate and deliver goodies from India. This show has been going on since Bhutto talked with Mrs Gandhi in Shimla.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 11 Apr 2012 08:55

ramana wrote:Well let her open a beauty parlor first.

It is a common feature in religious guilt-inducing totalitarian societies. Women going up the economic ladder feel guilty of having left the niches left and meant for them by the religion. Since Islamic societies are strongly suspicious of the methodology of modern education and science, and even current economics, the women too would be growing up with religious doubts about such an educational and economic path.

The more level headed and realistic about Islam itself - are the working class women of Islamic societies. They are the real revolutionary force within Islamic societies. Physical weakness and biological chains of bondage keep them tethered. Give them protection and freedom from retaliation by the mullah - or counter-terror on the mullah and his agents, even the hubby, or the bro or the dad licking mullah bottoms, they can and will tear off Islamic societies.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 11 Apr 2012 09:26

Talking about the mind of Islamic woman.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-1744 ... um=twitter
Saudi princess: What I'd change about my country

Princess Basma Bint Saud Bin Abdulaziz tells the BBC there are many changes she would like to see in Saudi Arabia - but that now is not the time for women to be allowed to drive.
I speak as the daughter of King Saud, the former ruler of Saudi Arabia. My father established the first women's university in the kingdom, abolished slavery and tried to establish a constitutional monarchy that separates the position of king from that of prime minister. But I am saddened to say that my beloved country today has not fulfilled that early promise.Our ancient culture, of which I am very proud, is renowned for its nobility and generosity, but we lack, and urgently need, fundamental civil laws with which to govern our society.As a daughter, sister, (former) wife, mother, businesswoman and a working journalist, these are the things that I would like to see changed in Saudi Arabia.

( Read the full article and dont miss the beauty pageant picture)

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 11 Apr 2012 09:37

ramana wrote:So I was thinking how did the Germans step back from the abyss and become recivilized? I think they emphasized Insaaniyaat or love for fellow man and confronted the devil in Nazism.

Germany was always one of the most civilized nations in Europe, producing its finest philosophers, artists, and scientists. Even the pro-Catholic stance of Hitler was opposed to the usual anti-RCC stance of Germany, dating back to Luther. If we go back in History, we find that the Germans were also opposed to the Roman empire. So, Hitler's alliance with RCC was opposed to 25 centuries of German resistance to Rome.

Nazism should be looked at as an aberation in German history, produced by the shock of the defeat in WW1. (West) Germany was kept in a cage of guilt by the WW2 victors for so long, until the East German Angela Merkel freed it.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Apr 2012 08:38

Cross post from Pakhana thread

The "news" that comes out of Pakistan seems to have the following data points in general
1. Pakistan's economy is growing, albeit slowly
2. Pakistan's middle class is growing
3. Pakistan's population is growing. Rapidly
4. Support for Islamic extremism in the form of Wahhabi-Deobandi zealots is growing
5. The "growing" Pakistani middle class are the prime fund givers to Islamist extremists groups like the Jamaat-ud Dawa and now the Difa-e-Pakistan
6. The "government" of Pakistan is unable to collect taxes from its people
7. Islamic groups like the Jammat-ud-Dawa/Difa-e-Pakhana are fully capable of extracting taxes from Pakistanis in the name of "islamic taxes".
8. Radical Islamic groups - JuD/DeP are "filling in" and replacing government functions where the latter are deemed inadequate. The filling in appears to be primarily in the areas of education (clubbed with feeding poor children), support to the army in logistics, intelligence, relief work and offensive operations; social work in empowering those who are under the yoke of feudals.

It looks like Pakistan has two governments that tolerate each other and accept each other because they have complementary roles. One is the regular government to deal with the 3.5 allies, and the other is an islamic government. The latter is the de facto Home ministry, the former for external affairs and beggary. Both do defence.

The "regular" government that the west talks so much about - which was voted in after giving the radical Islamic parties only 0.0000000000000006 of one vote is the one that is "struggling" to provide water, power and other facilities. But a lot of the social support that the government is supposed to give is managed by the Islamic parties who collect the taxes they need. In the meantime the "government" collects aid and claims inability to collect taxes from a very "poor" Pakistan because they have to spend oh so much on defence.

The radical islamic parties, who got only 0.0000000000000006 of one vote don't need to be voted in because they stay in power and are empowered to tax the population of Pakistan with no protest.

The Pakistani army gets money and help from both sides - the "government" and the radical Islamists.

Pakistan has a unique structure in place. It has a hybrid "elected' government and a non elected "popular Islamic" government working side by side. This is a "winning" structure and unless I am mistaken it is guaranteed to ensure that Islami extremists take over Pakistan. All aid from the west actually helps and promotes this. I think that we are going to have to accept and face up to a Pakistan that is totally radicalized next door. That is OK - India can handle that - but for me the worry is at what stage the US will do a U-turn and take up the Islamic radicals as their allies. That must be prevented if possible. Imagine a day when the US hands over designs of a compact thermonuclear bomb to a Tali-Paki government "ally" along with a missile shield to guard against an intransigent India that fails to vacate Kashmir.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 18 Apr 2012 08:49

From the New York Times (Metropolitan Diary - Reader Tales from the City)
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/ ... tradition/

Dear Diary:

There was a fire on our block in Hell’s Kitchen the other day. Ali, who owns the deli across the street, lives in the now-damaged building with his wife and five children.

I stopped at the deli the next morning to see if he was all right, and if they needed anything. They’re staying with family a couple of blocks away. The Red Cross would give them housing in an outer borough, but Ali wants to keep the kids in their school. Then he told me that he wasn’t home when the fire started in the ground-floor restaurant’s ventilation system.

“My wife was with the children,” he said. “The super banged on the door and told them to get out. She ran downstairs with the kids, but when she got to the street she realized she hadn’t put on her —.”

He stopped and thought for a moment, then put both his hands on top of his head and brought them down next to his ears and across his shoulders. As he made this gesture he said, “She forgot to put on her, you know.”

Right, I knew. Her scarf, her veil. I couldn’t think of the right word either.

“So when she realized she was without her, you know” — he gestured again — “she ran back upstairs. All the children followed her. The firemen had to get them out. Later, I told her, “We live in America now; you don’t really need the, you know.” And he swept his hands down off his head again. “It was a fire, you know.”

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Apr 2012 03:59

Even though this analysis is about North Korea it also applies to TSP.

Nightwatch 4/17/2012

Comment: The Foreign Ministry announcement is eloquent testimony that nothing much has changed with Kim Jong-un's elevation to leadership. The statement quoted above is a classic example of the North's all pervasive victim narrative.

Although North Korea started the Korean War, ever since it got beaten its propagandists have advanced the narrative that North Korea is a victim of injustice and perfidy by the UN, US and the Allies. The victim narrative justifies the North's failure to honor its commitments by wrapping itself in self-righteousness, false legality and blaming outsiders for ill will, lack of sincerity, violations of dignity, hostile acts and so on. In this narcissistic narrative only North Korea is honorable and upright.

The repertoire of wrongs has been canned for decades. The triteness of the lexicon is a strong sign of continuity. The victim narrative is essential in keeping an abused population docile and loyal to an undeserving leadership.

Now that the North has established that it has been wronged, it is free from any past agreements and thus can detonate a nuclear device, for example, when and as it chooses. If a device is not detonated, it almost certainly means the scientists failed again, rather than some act of responsible self-restraint by the ruling cabal.

Its truly comes from the desert sands by way of Western Europe.

Abrahamic-> Judeo-Christian->Islam-> Marxism

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Apr 2012 08:41

Post 1

Please allow me some semantic rambling on the topic of "normalization" of ties between Indiapakistan. "Normalization" implies a state of current "abnormality" in comparison to some previously established "normality".

This, of course is rubbish. Since Pakistan was a part of India, it was created by a violent act of ripping India. So violence is "normal". Peace is abnormality. What seems to be desired by various governments is an abnormal, "never existed earlier" state of peace between India and Pakistan. This is not "normalization". It is abnormalization, or if you don't like that word, the establishment of a new set of rules of engagement

There is no "prior history" of international relations between India and Pakistan that can be used as a template for relations. It was never an "international relationship" that can be reset to some older period. It was always an interprovincial relationship.

Relations between India and Pakistan cannot be based on Islam. Islam was used as the basis for breaking off Pakistan, and has continuously been touted as victor or victim of partition and cannot be used for mending relations. Islam may be used as a "common denominator" for relations between Islamic states, but even then there must be some economic or cultural exchange for the relationship to rise beyond like saying " I wish well for all of mankind". "We the ummah mean well for each other". If you look at cultural parameters, India has plenty of claims on areas of Pakistan based on Indian history of Hindus, Buddhists and Sikhs. It was an Islamic excuse that actually chose to break off. That Islamic excuse will have to be set aside for any new relationship to develop. Even if there are claims to some Islamic cultural links for Pakistanis inside india those links can only be admitted by an acceptance of Hindu, Sikh and Buddhist irredentist claims in Pakistan.

If the irredentist claims are set aside with a view to building relations on other "secular" parameters, we find that there was no "Pakistan" for people in India to deal with. Indians were merely dealing with Indian provinces like Sindh and Punjab and Baluchistan. So historic links with individual provinces of Pakistan and the people who were settled in those provinces can serve as a basis of "historic" relations.

Historically Sindh was occupied and dominated by Islamic rulers over 1000 years ago and remained that way till the 1840s when the British finally toppled the Talpurs, the Baluchi origin rulers of Sindh who had been in power for 200 years or so. Until the 1840s Indian who dealt with Sindhis were dealing with merchants and laws of the Talpurs of Sindh. The Sindhi people were more or less independent of the Brits until 1847 and came under "Britsh rule" for a century. The British actually had spread though India by a combination of trade, diplomatic and military deals from the south and east - with Madras and Calcutta as their bases. The Talpurs of Sindh themselves had usurped rule from an earlier dynasty called the Kalhoras, who in turn gained Sindh in the early 1700s from a declining Mughal empire under Aurangzeb.

With the Talpurs having been Baluchi - there are a lot of Baluchis in Sindh so Baluchistan and Sindh are connected up. It is amazing that these provinces have come to be dominated by the Pakjabis. The reason seems to be that right from 1947 the army has been dominated by Pakjabis and Pashtuns and we have a case of "Jiski lathi uski bhains" (He who wields the stick owns the buffalo).

I have been trying to inform myself about the history of the Panchanada (Punjab) area. It strikes me that the Mussalmans of Punjab have never been rulers, they have always been ruled. At best they make loyal servants. They are more often traitors and collaborators. Please look up the history of Punjab - of which accounts exist from the days of the Mahabharata. "Punjabi Mussalman rule" has existed since 1947 onlee. The primary driver for that was the pre-existence of a lot of Pakjabis in the Paki army at independence with white masters. they vowed to continue their ass licking of white masters in exchange for perennial aid from the west. The alliance between "Pakistan" and the US is hardly an alliance between nation states. It is an alliance between the Paki army, dominated by the Punjabi Mussalman and the US. I think a lot of Indians mistake Sikh valor as Punjabi valor. Sikh valor needed leadership brains. Punjabi mussalmans have always been vassals, not leaders. You can call this stereotyoing if you like but I will myself begin to bring down those stereotypes if better information becomes available.

So if India is to have any sort of "new relationship" with the area called Pakistan, it has to be a province by province relationship. Each province will have to be treated in a way that takes into account its history and the relationship of that province to old India.

just some random thoughts that took me an entire day to put down.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Apr 2012 08:42

Post 2

Some of you guys may be offended by reading this, but I say it nevertheless. It appears that Pakistan does have some culture. I'll admit that. But it is not "Pakistani culture". There is no such thing as "Pakistani culture" other than terrorism and excuses for murder in the name of Islam. That is Pakistani culture, but then again you can't call that "culture".

However individual provinces of Pakistan have their unique culture which I believe is worth knowing about because it gives a better insight into alliances and tensions within Shitistan. I cannot claim to be the expert here - but here are some basic impressions I have gained:

Sindh: Sindh has been under islamic rule for the longest time. But since it occupies a place next to the sea and at the mouth of the Indus the people of Sindh have had a mercantile culture for centuries and Sindh has played host to various nationalities and religions. Of all Pakistan's provinces I think Sindh had, and still has the largest proportion of Hindus. Sindh had been ruled for centuries by a Baluchi clan and there are a lot of Baluchis in Sindh. Before Sindhi kings developed canals fro irrigation Sindh itself was a desert like Baluchistan (It's going back to that now that Pakjab is damming the water). So agriculture is another occupation in Sindh.

I might be wrong here but Sufi traditions blended in well with the feudal traditions of Sindh. Feudalism thrived as gifts of land were made to leaders who served as vassals. Sufism served as a balm for the people in feudal lands and did nothing to upset the power of feudatory lords. And because Sufi tradition requires a "guru" and the work is passed on from father to son, it was convenient for Sufi pirs to gain power and influence over centuries and become feudal lords themselves. . I think Prime Minister Yousuf Raza "Boob squeezer" Gilani belongs to one such Sufi Pir/Feudal family.

Sufism has, over the centuries built shrines where music and mysticism serve as a kind of "normal" social outlets for people in Sindh as opposed to the dry Arab Islam that we wish to see in Pakistan. Sufism also offered a milder face of islam and may have taken on some converts without prior rape of mother and beheading of father

Pakjab - Pakistani Punjab. Southern Pakjab was dominated by Islamic kings very early on like Sindh. Northern Pakjab, with Indian Punjab in the east held out longer. Punjab itself has a long history where various kings and civilzations have manged to control varying amounts of territiry on either side of the Indus and its tributaries which have served as a formidable geographic barrier. They were primarily Buddhists and Buddhism itself was on the decline by the time Mahmud of Ghazni came. Among the people of Punjab - it appears that one set of people were converted perhaps by force. Sufism is not big in Pakjab as far as I can tell. Sikhism itself arose under an Islamic yoke as a religion that retained Dharma but perhaps sough to coexist. That fact that islam would not coexist made Sikhism militant - a prime example of why maintenance of dharma needs a willingness to fight for it. A lot of ancient Buddhist relics in Pakjab have been destroyed over the centuries - representing the worst of Islam.

But even in Pakjab it is the South, Southern Pakistani Punjab that is seeing the rise of Wahhabandism. Hindus and Sikhs were the first to take a hit. But Shias, Ahmedis and Sufis are also receiving the attention of dry Arab islam that tolerates no deviation from a book that was dictated to Mohammad but written down by someone else.

Punjabi culture is one of ebullience, hospitality and bluster, and it is the islamic, Pakjabi version of Punjabi culture that has been hyped as "Pakistani culture". Pakistan wealth is concentrated in Pakjab and the land is fertile from several dams including the Sukkur barrage and the Tarbela dam

NWFP Khyber Pahtunkhwa: Just line Baluchis share some history with Sindh, the people of Khyber Paktunkhwa hare connected up with Pakjab by history. The people in these areas have been on the path of all invaders be they Greeks, Scythians, Kushans, Arabs, Turks or Persians. The difference is geography. NWFP is harsh, cold mountainous. Pakjab is settled, wet, fertile. India was always on the "other side" of Pakjab - across the fiver rivers. The Paki side was usually exchanging hands. These areas were never cultural reservoirs. NWFP survived on tribal codes to which Islamic codes were added. Islam did not kill off the poetry and music of these tribals, and it only helped perpetuate their homosexual practices. During the British period Pakjab and NWF contributed loyal men to the British indian army. That loyalty was bought by telling them that they were great martial people. In any case they had little else in their culture and hardly contributed to the culture of India as marked by northern, eastern and southern Indians.

It is a quirk of this military history that made Pakjab dominate Pakistan, with the Pakistani army being almost entirely composed of Pakjabis (about 60%) and Pashtuns (about 30% IIRC).

So Pakistan can be seen as two historic units. Sindh-Baluchistan as one, and NWFP-Pakjab as the other. The NWFP-Pakjab were always dependent on India in the east and Persia/wst Asia in the west. They were either attacking or defending while serving as a link between ancient India and Iraq, iran, Turkey and Souther Europe.

Any errors are mine. But i am building a template for seeing what can be expeced out of the lands that consitute Pakistan. Will cross post in another thread for completion.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 25 Apr 2012 09:09

shiv wrote: It is a quirk of this military history that made Pakjab dominate Pakistan, with the Pakistani army being almost entirely composed of Pakjabis (about 60%) and Pashtuns (about 30% IIRC).

So Pakistan can be seen as two historic units. Sindh-Baluchistan as one, and NWFP-Pakjab as the other. The NWFP-Pakjab were always dependent on India in the east and Persia/wst Asia in the west. They were either attacking or defending while serving as a link between ancient India and Iraq, iran, Turkey and Souther Europe.

Any errors are mine. But i am building a template for seeing what can be expeced out of the lands that consitute Pakistan. Will cross post in another thread for completion.

Just adding some demographic information on the PA. http://www.spearheadresearch.org/pages/ ... _Corps.pdf

Also, there is one more unit the Sariki (South Punjab (Multan) and Northern Sindh).

added: In terms of historic units, there are some others too. One thing we have to do is erase the Durand line from our minds and we will realize that NWFP, FATA, Northern Baluchistan and the Pashtun areas of Afghanistan are one unit. Southern Baluchistan, Iran Baluchi lands and Afghan Baluchis are one unit. Over to the Radcliff, In the NA, Baltistan and Kargil areas are a unit, The entire northern Punjab was a unit (I am not sure if it is so today but if the borders are open, then who knows? border districts of Sindh, Rajasthan and Kutch were a unit.

The question to ask is which units, either by themselves or in combinations lead to a "stable" modern nation states? That means no extra regional outside interference and no undue interference by other regions in internal matters.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 May 2012 22:16

X-Post...
Bala vaakya Brhama vaakya!

svenkat wrote:Shivji,
You are an esteemed member,a 'guru',an ex-admn of this forum.As a keyboard jehadi,I have a high regard for people like you who have created this forum.

But I cant help feeling you are on a wildgoose chase.Its your choice to get yourself acquainted with sh1tland.To be honest,even that seems a pisko exercise.Cant help feeling that its impossible for you not to know about paki history.

If your search for faultlines in paki society is real then I have a few thoughts.
1) You will never be able to find any faultlines in Pakjab for India to exploit.I will explain why.The two largest castes in Pakjab are jats and rajputs.An additional 'hindu caste' which converted is Gujar.These form the bedrock of stability in Pakjab.Without them,theres no sh1tland.So ideally one would be looking for some sanity from these castes.As they were part of united punjab until 47.

These castes,particularly rajputs and then jats are fairly well resprented among paki RAPES and TSPA.Yet they have made no difference to pakhanastan.Why?

1) As Bajwaji pointed,these are rangaars-ba$turds.

2)Their conversion was purely opportunistic,but it happened under duress,the duress we cannot apply so long as 3.5 friends remain

3)The paki history looks down on the jats and rajputs and glorifies araps,turks,persians.In the paki hierarchy the pashtuns,mongol,persian,syed,awan,gakkar rank higher than rajputs and jats.And the rajput and jat has to prove their muslimness by demonstrable anti-hinduness even though it means hating themselves.Thus the pakjabi even while sh1t scared of the pashtun still would like to be a scheming and more brutal version of pashtun.This is reinforced by mullahs who look west.The Pakis look upto Saudi barbaria,Iran and Central Asia.The pakis hate themselves.Look at the contrast with jutt sikhs.The jutt sikhs have great pride in punjab,its rivers.The Gurus were from Punjab.The Sikh misls was led by jutt sikhs.The empire of MRS though not wholly Sikh was largely Sikh.

4)Only in spain,was the muslim population reconverted.Theres no record of that elsewhere

5)Any overtures by India will be seen only as weakness- as efforts by special interest groups in Delhi to reactivate trading relations particularly because Cong/BJP are increasingly fragile.It will seen only as a vindications of Jinnahs vision that Hindustanis claim of united India was a Brahmin-bania conspiracy which has unravelled and the hindoo banias having seen the writing on the wall were supplicating themselves before the RAPES,all this while we see no corresponding unravelling of TSPA/mullocracy.

6)The pakis have gone so much down the virulent Islamist path,any accomodation with kaffirs will be just taqqiya by a tiny fraction of society.

7)One might think the RAPEs would have some interest in sanity given that they are on the line to the lamp post,but the fact they are RAPes makes them impervious to any reason.

and

shiv wrote:
A_Gupta wrote:Shiv, there is a difference between inter-personal relationships and inter-community relationships. When a Sikh or Hindu knows personally a Muslim, they probably relate to them as a person, not as a representative of the Islamic empire. It is not entirely clear to me whether that that is entirely reciprocated. There is also the inter-community relationship which could be very different, based on the community's collective sense of history. So, e.g., Sikhs may have Muslims that are close friends or family, but collectively as Sikhs they would not want to be in a situation where their political existence depends on Muslim goodwill (e.g., as a minority group in an undivided Punjab that was part of Pakistan).
The mystery to me is why these relationships are maintained given the assumption of uniform hatred from Pakistanis.

One possible explanation is that a Pakistani cannot afford to publicly show friendship of be conciliatory towards India and Indians. Of course this is a weak argument akin to saying "The sun is actually 99% cold - we just happen to see the 1% hot part and act as if that is all there is to the sun. We need to look for the cold bits".

But clearly we know that there seems to be a contingent of inestimable size in India that seeks friendship with what is, for all intents and purposes, a murderous country. This Indian contingent is referred to as "traitor", "WKK", jholawala" etc. There are enough of them to form an entire named class of their own. Does this class exist in a total vacuum?

The answer that we have to this question is as follows: "You know, Pakistanis will behave all friendly and reasonable about everything until it comes to Kashmir when they suddenly go all fundoo" The Traitors/WKK/Jholawalas seem to profess friendship for Pakistanis despite all this. And recall that we can't see those Pakistanis in any case - we assume that they exist, giving a reason for the WKKs to want friendship. The story that we have depended upon all these years on BRF is that the Pakistanis who act friendly ar patriots - who will pretend when necessary to get concessions. And out WKKs are traitors or fools who fall for this pretence (that we don't fall for)

Having made all these "logical" arguments that are difficult to refute, I think it is still worth looking at who or what in Pakistan may be having some regrets about the state of affairs and what it is about their environment that prevents them from open vulgar WKK like displays. After all there are many who are openly critical of Indian WKKs but Indian WKKism per se is not disallowed. Only disliked and lampooned.

Does an animal called Paki WKKism exist? Why is it invisible if it exists? Why do Indian WKKs exist if Paki WKKs don't exist?

An answer to this question is important because if it can be shown that Paki WKKs do not exist, Indian WKKs can be bashed into submission with no excuse/opportunity for their efforts. Indian WKKs exist on the premise that Paki WKKs exist (AFAIK). i want to see those Paki WKKs and know why they are otherwise invisible?

Now lets think about the Pakjabi main components in light of my German De-Nazification posted above.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 May 2012 22:33

X-post....

shiv wrote:svenkat it is in my nature to question everything and reassess everything. That is the way my mind works.
Conclusions that seem beyond question need to be questioned for validity in my world.

You say
1) You will never be able to find any faultlines in Pakjab for India to exploit.I will explain why.The two largest castes in Pakjab are jats and rajputs.An additional 'hindu caste' which converted is Gujar.These form the bedrock of stability in Pakjab.Without them,theres no sh1tland.So ideally one would be looking for some sanity from these castes.As they were part of united punjab until 47.
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3)The paki history looks down on the jats and rajputs and glorifies araps,turks,persians.In the paki hierarchy the pashtuns,mongol,persian,syed,awan,gakkar rank higher than rajputs and jats.And the rajput and jat has to prove their muslimness by demonstrable anti-hinduness even though it means hating themselves.Thus the pakjabi even while sh1t scared of the pashtun still would like to be a scheming and more brutal version of pashtun.This is reinforced by mullahs who look west.The Pakis look upto Saudi barbaria,Iran and Central Asia.The pakis hate themselves.Look at the contrast with jutt sikhs.The jutt sikhs have great pride in punjab,its rivers.The Gurus were from Punjab.The Sikh misls was led by jutt sikhs.The empire of MRS though not wholly Sikh was largely Sikh.
Actually there is a problem in Pakjab. It has nothing to do with India - or at least it does not have as much to do with India as we might like to imagine.

Your post, and the posts made by many others tend to lump islam as one unified entity. It is unified only in its hatred for India and Kafirs, but what is happening in Pakjab is a social revolution that seems to have groups like the JuD behind it. I am still unable to figure out their exact successes and failures, but they have made inroads into Pakjabi society in many ways.

While all Pakis hate India and kafirs, and they always insisted that Pakistanis are "moderate". What they meant by "moderate" is their love for certain types of music and culture and certain traditions among other things. Lack of covering up, "Punjabi" festivals like baisakhi etc were genuinely followed and Sufi pirs had a tradition of music. It appears that Sufi pir descendants were also feudal landholders (at least in Sindh). I am trying to find out the case in Pakjab.

Gradually, very gradually islamist groups seem to have taken over Pakjab, mosque by mosque, madarsa by madarsa. The Sufi/Barelvi parts are being replaced by Wahhabandi - Deobandi Wahhabi islamic "purity" that purity has support from the "middle classes" and money from expatriates. It also appears that the JuD have successfully given an alternative to the "low caste" Pakistani Muslim. The low caste Pakjabi constitutes about 20-30% and as far as I know these low caste Muslims have been powerless and landless while being held within their traditional Sufi network. You have quoted a whole lot of Paki upper caste names - but my refs show that they constitute only about 40% of Pakjab's population. One thing we have totally ignored on BRF are the caste dynamics of Pakistan and how they affect society and how those caste dynamics are being changed by the JuD/LeT. We seem to have swallowed the "Islam has no caste" story hook line and sinker and accepted it as true. These are the details I am looking for. The details may not matter, but I need data to show why they don't matter.

I think it is important to understand what is happening in better detail. These changes are liked by some Pakis and disliked by others. Who dislikes them? Why?