India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

[Amber G.]

I point you to this (as this is not my area of subject and obviously am learning from you all gurus. it is bit dated and not sure if science went past 2nd law): The Myth of the Hydrogen Economy

I found the link, you may like this:
A Pollution-Free Hydrogen Economy

Electric cars powered by hydrogen fuel cells don't produce greenhouse-enhancing carbon dioxide. But producing hydrogen does- <snip>

[Amber G.]

Again, one, who thinks that I "am an Indian origin person advocating for foreign paycheck", can not even get the basic unit of energy straight.. (and that too after being pointed out multiple times) ... Just few examples ...

...indian sidekicks of great scientists supporting loudly and explaining this to their Amirkhan students....
.....How the phrase "Meltdowns" have become so common place while describing FUK-D, once derided upon.

Chanaakya,

I'm not sure said sidekick is Indian citizen. Maybe Indian origin person advocating for foreign paycheck. I have never seen any great love for India or concern for its future, just a sales opportunity. Aim is to stiff India and scoot back to safe massa suburb. No skin in the game. If you have property near a nuclear plant as I do you will be more concerned.

And yes there was a organized demand to ban anyone mentioning 'meltdown' at one point. Talk about Jihadism.
-
Refrigerator (No auto defrost) Energystar : 250 kw/year
A/C single window type in R-25 insulated bedroom alone 1/6 ton : 300 kw/year
TV LCD : 200 kw/year
60 watt scroll fan 4x as efficient as Khaitan : 150 kw/year
LPG Stove.
Lighting (2) 13 watt (60 watt eq) CFL : 30 kw/year
laptop : 40 kw/year

Total of 980 KW per person per year. There is plenty of lee way as I have counted everyone as having a fridge & A/C.

If say 50% of consumption goes to Industrial/retail/etc We will need about 980x2 = 1960 kw per person per year.

And again ..

Clothes dryer : 1000 kw/year
Washer : 200 kw/year
Electric stove/oven : 400 kw/yr
Electric heat : 1,500 kw/year (not needed?)

Everyone knows unit of energy is Joule (or BTU or calorie etc), and unit of power is watt ...
But kw/year ???
People are wondering if " the time has come for evaluating energy acceleration ... sort of like cosmic inflation ... or, second derivative of energy " ?

[gakakkad]

the article of tech review Amber was referring to .

http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/40001/page1/

[Amber G.]

Technological Review India, published by MIT has a nice article .. worth reading

What We Learned About Nuclear Safety from Fukushima

[Amber G.]

^^^ also ...

Being a GoI servant sure is a thankless job .

.. OTOH the thankless job is worthwhile..
A picture from last year - India’s 25th nuclear power plant work started in Rajasthan .. (this was also post-Fukushima)

(SK Jain, Bhavini and S Banerjee and other senior officers on the occasion of first pour of concrete on July 18 at Rawatbhata in Rajasthan)

(Small tidbit - The concrete poured by pressing of a button from Shri Banerji is foundation of the site which would become the emergency core cooling system of the new reactor..)

[Sanku]

There are confirmed reserves of over 49,000 tones of uranium at Tummalapalle. "Tummalapalle could become one of the world's largest uranium deposits and the new facility would provide a major fillip to the country's nuclear programmes," Banerjee said.

Now that the earlier canard and propaganda about non-availability of Nat U in India has been falsified, I feel that India should now take steps to, and quickly renege (disengage from) the 123 Agreement and its offshoot Agreements with P5 and others.

Thank you for saying what needed to be said Sanatanan-ji. Unfortunately, the 123 deal is and always was a political deal made by Man mohan and other powers in Congress (UPA?) for specific purposes.

To this end, Indian scientists, including Kakodkar et al were vilified (much like Gen VKS is being targeted today) by Sanjay Baru and other pen men of the establishment behind Man mohan.

That coupled with the fact that a number of vested interests seemed to have gotten their claws into the Indian establishment (an obvious example Hindu has in a editor an American Citizen masquerading as a Indian with Indian interests at heart, but essentially a MUTU) -- I do not think that we can actually do what would be the right thing to do under the circumstances.

===================================================================================

A thought just stuck me though -- We are Indians, we do not renege on International contracts.

I propose a variation of the method you suggest -- as soon as a half way decent Govt is in power in New Delhi -- We must immediately test a series of Thermo Nuclear devices.

This will have many advantages
1) The TN device whose yield has since been under considerable doubt -- gets fully proofed.
2) This basically effectively blows the 123 out of water from a US perspective, that is of carrying out a CRE on India, now it would be good to see what US reaction in such a scenario is.
3) It would be a good test of currently prevailing dynamics of power as well as that of the intentions of the major power about India. Will we be sanctioned? Will US unilaterally start invoking clauses from the Hyde act which linked to by the 123?

There will basically be two outcomes
1) US goes into a tizzy and starts penalizing us -- if so, then we can quietly abrogate 123 and/or renege on promises with a clear conscience. (look they broke up first)

2) US is in a still weaker position and does not take a strong stand -- if so -- we quietly press our advantage -- pass a new INDIAN JEKYELL ACT --> and reclaim the lost ground Without ostensibly reneging on 123 (since 123 allows for domestic laws to supersede any agreements)

Do you think this approach may be feasible?

[Sanku]

Again and again and again - that thought must be driven through the minds of those who think GoI has got it all wrong. The kind of resources that GoI has at its disposal and quality of inputs that help GoI make decisions by people who actually work in that field - I bet not one has it in this forum.

Neela, I am afraid that is quite a flawed statement at multiple levels.

1) It is a "appeal to authority" an essentially flawed discussion device.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

2) It is actually doubly flawed, because it is not GoI who has gotten it all wrong, but Man mohan and his cohorts. To this end, they have actively worked against many sections of GoI and have undermined Indian institutions.

a) When Kakodkar et al held out against the massive liberal give away to US in the first drafts, Man mohan's men attacked him in press (Poison pen articles by Sanjay Baru et al) A lot of eminent scientists are still against the whole deal. Certainly they are as much a part of the Indian system if not more as those claiming ownership through appointment to a RS post are.

b) For 123 some people (its clear who) actively worked to subvert the Indian democracy through cash for votes, confirmed by both Indian sources like Parliamentarians including those from left and media houses (which unfortunately withheld video) as well as by Wikileaks.

c) The people who supported Man mohan in parliament then viz Mulayam, are on record saying that it was their "worst mistake".

Clearly in such a scenario, a lame duck government, in its final few months of power, slyly signing a deal behind the nations back, after a detestably murky episode in the parliament, can not be considered a GoI view.

This at best is a deal ONLY by Man mohan's govt, and certainly not by Govt of India, let alone India as a nation. (legalese aside)

So your argument falls flat on multiple counts, it tries an "argument from authority" expect that, there is really no authority that it appeals too.

[negi]

Gakakkad India until now only reprocesses the spent fuel from our indigenous PHWR reactors the spent fuel mix from the imported LWR is going to be different; I don't think that reprocessing spent fuel from them is going to involve exact same process, note that it was after POK-I tests that rest of the world consciously tried to shift away from CANDU type reactors as the spent fuel from these could be re-processed to extract WGPU. The talks with French and Ru for setting up an ENR facility in India are to take care of the spent fuel from the imported LWRs which would obviously be under IAEA safeguards.

As for our Uranium enrichment programme it has been chugging along in economy mode due to scarcity of Uranium (due to rather mediocre quality of ore in our currently operational mines). As I understand the terms of the deal we cannot enrich any imported Uranium at this site unless we agree to bring it under the safeguards.

[gakakkad]

Gakakkad India until now only reprocesses the spent fuel from our indigenous PHWR reactors the spent fuel mix from the imported LWR is going to be different; I don't think that reprocessing spent fuel from them is going to involve exact same process, note that it was after POK-I tests that rest of the world consciously tried to shift away from CANDU type reactors as the spent fuel from these could be re-processed to extract WGPU.

As for our Uranium enrichment programme it has been chugging along in economy mode due to scarcity of Uranium (due to rather mediocre quality of ore in our currently operational mines). As I understand the terms of the deal we cannot enrich any imported Uranium at this site unless we agree to bring it under the safeguards.

don't worry boss , we are building more pwhr.. we cannot use fuel from imported lwr for military purpose , ..that part is obvious..no country would officially aid other countries nuke weapons programme ..neither can US officially use fuel from its demarcated civillian reactors to make bums ...US too has demarcated civilians and military reactors..the N-Deal does not compel us to buy lwrs..but does give us an option to do so..it does not harm us in any way..

i have previously posted data that shows that we are accelerating our bum making capacity ..check this dhaga as well as the bharat karnad dhaga...

HEU program has not been chugging in the economy mode ... just that we don't hear about it..there was a mention of 4th generation centrifuges with 50 times the capacity of previous generation in the address at homi bhabhas birthday..i had posted the link in this dhaga.. And we can do whatever we want to with imported uranium ore..uranium ore is not safeguarded ....

you can go through the previous pages of this dhagaa..everything has been discussed at great lengths multiple times..

I have posted the stuff several times.

[negi]

Gakakkad I am not worrying I am merely point out the fact that talk about importing ENR is related to imported LWRs, hence to say that since we already have PUREX, we don't need to import ENR is incorrect. They are two different things, btw PUREX only addresses re-processing not enrichment.

Nuclear fuel cycle is a closed loop i.e. once you start using a nuclear facility for reprocessing or enriching fuel which comes out or goes into safeguarded LWRs it will have to be brought under safeguards. Given it's scale and capacity the site at Rattehalli has little to do with India's civil nuclear programme iow I don't see it enriching or producing fuel for any safeguarded site (i.e. any imported LWR or even PHWR being brought under safeguards) hence the talk about importing ENR technology.

[Amber G.]

On the lighter side ....
Folks - A few pages ago, there was some discussion about "two two way linkages " missing in nuclear which exists , at least in "today's age" in "gas and diesel" .. point the poster wanted to make was that " most forms of energy can be converted from one to other" but with nuclear you have no choice but being stuck with electricity ...

As few people pointed out, this was, of course, ridiculous but I wondered why anyone will get that kind of notion..Could it be that, that kind of misunderstanding may be result of these type of pictures ? ...

[Amber G.]

gakakkad, Negi - Yes, ENR has been discussed here (and other places).. I have heard this since 1970's ..

Even TOI has a story ( not too old - Oct 2011), for example:
Nuclear enrichment tech to take giant leap

Atomic Energy Commission (AEC) chairman S Banerjee on Tuesday said that India's nuclear enrichment and reprocessing technology (ENR) is set to take a giant leap. So far, reprocessing was done on a pilot scale. "This will now be multiplied considerably," Banerjee said.

India has a large amount of spent fuel which needs to be reprocessed.

"Our immediate plan is to have two fast breeder reactor projects at Kalpakkam near Chennai. The reprocessing capacity has to be enhanced so there is no shortage of fuel. There should be no mismatch," Banerjee said.

**self edited - some India specific details ought not be in an open forum *** ( From what I know, Enrichment technologies - gaseous diffusion and centrifuge - much still remain classified both in India and US, but reprocessing technology - many techniques have been declassified for many years. For some extremely new technologies such as Silex - lasers to separate uranium - have come mainly from scientists/engineers outside US - and there is no reason India can not develop it better than others..)

[negi]

^ Sir I do not wish to argue endlessly on this topic ; having demonstrated a capability to enrich Uranium for select strategic project is quite different from having a enrichment complex in place to support the needs of entire nation's civil nuclear program. There is a reason why we have not been operating our PHWRs at their full capacity and why RU had to step in back in 05-06 to replenish the fuel core for the TAPs 1&2 units which unlike our PHWRs use reactor grade enriched uranium.

[gakakkad]

^ Saar , civilian enrichment is in pipeline onlee. announcements will be made eventually.. presently first priority was military ..

http://www.barc.ernet.in/talks/fdch10.pdf

founders day address 2010

"The enrichment capacity in the country will be enhanced to
a level that a substantial quantity of enriched fuel
requirement will be met indigenously. "

he expect the above goal by 2020..

[Sanku]

^ Saar , civilian enrichment is in pipeline onlee. announcements will be made eventually.. presently first priority was military ..

http://www.barc.ernet.in/talks/fdch10.pdf

founders day address 2010

"The enrichment capacity in the country will be enhanced to
a level that a substantial quantity of enriched fuel
requirement will be met indigenously. "

he expect the above goal by 2020..

I dont get it, what is "civilian enrichment" -- do you mean enrichment for LWRs? If so why do you call it civilian enrichment?

OTOH if civilian enrichment is also for PHWR, shouldn't that be already available according to you?

So either we have ENR tech that is needed for our requirements, or we dont. Chose one, you cant have it both ways.

[chaanakya]

^ Saar , civilian enrichment is in pipeline onlee. announcements will be made eventually.. presently first priority was military ..

http://www.barc.ernet.in/talks/fdch10.pdf

founders day address 2010

"The enrichment capacity in the country will be enhanced to
a level that a substantial quantity of enriched fuel
requirement will be met indigenously. "

he expect the above goal by 2020..

I dont get it, what is "civilian enrichment" -- .

Oh you don't get it?? It is enrichment of Civilians or in other words another Scam by Congoons.

[Sanku]

I dont get it, what is "civilian enrichment" -- .

Oh you don't get it?? It is enrichment of Civilians or in other words another Scam by Congoons.

[amit]

Oh you don't get it?? It is enrichment of Civilians or in other words another Scam by Congoons.

Correct. You are very astute Sir. In fact Dr Bannerjee goes into great detail how the vision will enrich civilians by providing more non-polluting bijli.

All that I have mentioned are indeed possible in the timeframe
that I have indicated. When Homi Bhabha thought of a completely
indigenous atomic energy programme in the backdrop of a new-born
nation with limited infrastructure, striving for survival, it was a dream.
In the last six decades most of his dreams have been realised, that
too when we operated essentially in complete isolation. Today, when
we think of our future, we cannot call them as dreams because they
are definitely realisable. We should consider them to be our targets.
To achieve these targets, not only we have to work very hard, but also
we have to harmonise our activities to bring synergy. In each of the
areas I mentioned earlier, we have made substantial advances and I
do not see any reason why by concerted efforts of all of us we will not
be able to achieve them. In a lighter vein I can say that we have
played in the mid field quite well. A time has come when we should
score goals and I call upon all my colleagues to have the
determination and the zeal to take up the work which will touch the
lives of all our countrymen. The whole world as well as our own
countrymen are looking at us with great expectations. Let us try our
best to fulfill the aspirations of our countrymen and in the process
show the world that Indian scientists and technologists can indeed
change the life of millions and bring about a transition of a country
from developing state to a major power. This will indeed be the most
fitting tribute to our founder Homi Bhabha.

It is indeed a scam that there are people who would love to throw Homi Bhabha's dreams into the dustbin of history on misplaced notions shaped by Western Anti-nuclear jihads.

[Sanku]

Oh you don't get it?? It is enrichment of Civilians or in other words another Scam by Congoons.

It is indeed a scam that there are people who would love to throw Homi Bhabha's dreams into the dustbin of history on misplaced notions shaped by Western Anti-nuclear jihads.

What Homi Bhabha's dream was, was killed by 123. Full and square, sure there are still people trying to keep it alive, but still, let us see which vision will win Homi Bhaba, of self reliance.

Or that of "import from US or die" lobby, which is doing all it can to wreck the self reliance and the strategic program won so hard by Homi Bhaba and others.

[amit]

Some time ago there was a plea to scrap the "123". Now my question is which "123"/

According to Dr Bannerjee this is what we've done over the past one year:

During the year India has entered into bilateral agreements and
MoUs with many countries for cooperation in peaceful uses of atomic
energy. Some of these countries are Namibia, Mongolia, the Russian
Federation and Canada etc. It also had a joint declaration with the
United Kingdom on Civil Nuclear Cooperation. India also signed an
agreement with the European Atomic Energy Community for
cooperation in the field of Fusion Energy Research.

I wonder, of Santhanam ji wants all these agreements scrapped because we've discovered new uranium sources (btw what's the cost of extraction and what's the timeframe by which we'd have yellow cake to feed our PHWRs?)

Moreover I and several others have asked Santhanam ji by when we'd have PHWRs which produce 1000 MW of electricity. I hope he address this question.

[amit]

Or that of "import from US or die" lobby, which is doing all it can to wreck the self reliance and the strategic program won so hard by Homi Bhaba and others.

Cut the bullsh!t Sanku. Tell me what have we imported from the US - or have given a commitment, signed deals to - till today? Please don't sound like a broken record. Start up your harmonium when we actually sign some deals with the US.

However, we've been importing fuel from a number of countries which the 123 has allowed us to do. That's improved our PLF to over 90 per cent.

Full and square, sure there are still people trying to keep it alive,

I guess you don't think Dr Bannerjee as one of these people trying to keep Bhabha's dreams alive? I'm sure you're in an unique position to judge this.

[Sanku]

Or that of "import from US or die" lobby, which is doing all it can to wreck the self reliance and the strategic program won so hard by Homi Bhaba and others.

Cut the bullsh!t Sanku.

Well well well. Truth hurts eh. Brings forth the real person behind the think mask.

Tell me what have we imported from the US - or have given a commitment, signed deals to - till today?

Please don't sound like a broken record. Start up your harmonium

Dear me once again the very basics of 123. Sigh... Trying to hide the very basic obvious truth behind nasty personal attacks?

How about "separation of facilities" how about "shutting down a nuclear reactor with 20 years of life left" how about......

Why bother.

However, we've been importing fuel from a number of countries which the 123 has allowed us to do. That's improved our PLF to over 90 per cent.

Incorrect and Untrue. Many changes have recently been done which has improved our PLF, including finding and exploiting our internal uranium reserves.

The above as per Dr Banerjee himself actually.

[amit]

The above as per Dr Banerjee himself actually.

I think you should remember that it was me who actually posted the report by Dr Bannerjee. Sorry to say the stink is there again. Dr Bannerjee did not say that.

And I see you're doing a bit of skiing. Your comment was:

"import from US or die"

When asked to give specifics you come with separation of facilities and other fanciful background radiation. Each one of these issues have been discussed to death and the consensus (which unfortunately left you out) was that it was not at all harmful for Indian interests.

If one keeps on shouting the "Earth if flat" for N^10 times it still does not make the Earth flat.

[Sanku]

The above as per Dr Banerjee himself actually.

I think you should remember that it was me who actually posted the report by Dr Bannerjee. Sorry to say the stink is there again. Dr Bannerjee did not say that.

Why dont you quote then.


And sorry your game of paraphrasing others is over. Learn that lesson. No one is falling for your bait.

[amit]

Why dont you quote then.

I am quoting him. You're the one who says he did not say that, so the onus is on you my friend. It should be easy, just do a search with my name.

And sorry your game of paraphrasing others is over. Learn that lesson. No one is falling for your bait.

And says who? You?

But wait you haven't answered, what have we committed and signed the dotted line to import from the US?

I know you can't/won't answer that. So keeping traditions intact, I'll let you have the last word. Be my guest, I've gotta to run.

[chaanakya]

Some time ago there was a plea to scrap the "123". Now my question is which "123"/

According to Dr Bannerjee this is what we've done over the past one year:

During the year India has entered into bilateral agreements and
MoUs with many countries for cooperation in peaceful uses of atomic
energy. Some of these countries are Namibia, Mongolia, the Russian
Federation and Canada etc. It also had a joint declaration with the
United Kingdom on Civil Nuclear Cooperation. India also signed an
agreement with the European Atomic Energy Community for
cooperation in the field of Fusion Energy Research.

I wonder, of Santhanam ji wants all these agreements scrapped because we've discovered new uranium sources (btw what's the cost of extraction and what's the timeframe by which we'd have yellow cake to feed our PHWRs?)

Moreover I and several others have asked Santhanam ji by when we'd have PHWRs which produce 1000 MW of electricity. I hope he address this question.

If my understanding is correct 123 is a term used for Civil Nuclear deal between US and India whuch was a precondition for admittance into NSG club. Once accepted nothing prevented India to sign similar deal with other countries much to the chagrin of US nuke lobby. I believe , and I may be wrong, that US was promised in return , that there would be import of Civil Nuclear reactors for Civil NPPs probably LWRs of Westighouse GE variety. But French (Areva) EPR and Russia stole the march with contracts as US suppliers bogged down in Liability clauses.

I think to refer other deals as 123 would be wrong. Russian and French have gone for G2G contracts Unkil wanted Private players to pitch in. It means Global tenders and all sorts of restrictions and offsets, liabilities.

Also this deal has potential to kill our indigenous Nuclear programme. However , it has been discussed in depth elsewhere and is proper topic for that thread.

So your question , which 123 , is a non question.

[chaanakya]

And sorry your game of paraphrasing others is over. Learn that lesson. No one is falling for your bait.

And says who? You?

Well Sanku is wrong on this count. it would not be over and people would be falling for your bait.

[Sanku]

Why dont you quote then.

I am quoting him.

No you are not.

[Neela]

It is indeed a scam that there are people who would love to throw Homi Bhabha's dreams into the dustbin of history on misplaced notions shaped by Western Anti-nuclear jihads.

What Homi Bhabha's dream was, was killed by 123. Full and square, sure there are still people trying to keep it alive, but still, let us see which vision will win Homi Bhaba, of self reliance.

Or that of "import from US or die" lobby, which is doing all it can to wreck the self reliance and the strategic program won so hard by Homi Bhaba and others.

Sanku,
- Has our indigenous programme lost GoI patronage ?
- What does "sure there are still people trying to keep it alive" - how can a few people keep it alive. ?

I normally have no interest at all in something that ends with accusations of troll being thrown - so please keep that in mind.. But the reason I had to ask the above was that I find them to be incredulous. These are terse , short questions .

[Sanku]

Sanku,
- Has our indigenous programme lost GoI patronage ?

Yes, in terms of political patronage, the focus has quite clearly shifted. There are many indicators, including the fact that there the budgetary support for DAE has not really expanded keeping in mind the need for further funds if a indigenous program had to be pushed with any urgency.

- What does "sure there are still people trying to keep it alive" - how can a few people keep it alive. ?

I would say that there is a schism between the political message and the institutional actions. For example, to compare, the political helm repeatedly tries acts like, "sachar", "dilution of AFSPA" etc. Where as the Army repeatedly comes back with a different view.

In context of Nuclear --

We have seen a similar exercise during 123 (where differences between the political classes and the DAE were very visible for a long time)

We have seen a number of retired scientists (those who can speak freely) -- repeatedly asking for work on PHWR/AHWR etc, saying that the Indian nuclear expertise in primarily along those technologies, and that is because that particular path was consciously chosen.

Opting for 1000 W LWRs, in a large number, and that too with a pre-decided policy of assignment to a nation (and not a bid based process) -- was something which would divert manpower and money from domestic initiatives.

A number of such articles and views have been posted on this thread.

I would say those within the GoI still arguing for a domestic policy -- are those trying to keep Bhaba's dream alive.

[gakakkad]

leave it Amit..it might be easier for you and I to build a nuclear reactor , than explain some common sense to these unkils..it was you who introduced sanku to me when I was new here..I remember the introduction you gave him..let me paraphrase " Sanku is the most respected ,member of the forum .Kindly read and reread what he says a 100 times..Eventually you ll have a tubelight moment "o..this is what he meant. "

[Sanku]

^^^^

gakakkad, there is no sense, common or otherwise in the stance taken. I would strongly encourage you to not take a ideological perspective, but consider all the facts, without bias and then come to a conclusion.

[Sanku]

And we can do whatever we want to with imported uranium ore..uranium ore is not safeguarded ....

Err what are you talking about, all imports for safeguarded reactors, including ore/fuel in any manner is safeguarded as well, in fact its local enrichment is also safeguarded

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... rover-iaea

"Since the DAE has signed a contract (order) with French nuclear supplier AREVA for getting 300 tonnes of the yellow cake (Uranium), we will also be working out on which part of the Hyderabad-based Nuclear Fuel Complex (NFC) will be placed under safeguards for processing and fabricating the fuel.

"One part of the NFC is already listed in the Separation Plan which was made public in March 2006," Kakodkar said.

Some part of NFC has been under 'Campaign mode' of safeguards for fabrication of imported fuel from different countries for the US-supplied Tarapur atomic power stations units one and two, he added.

In campaign mode safeguards, inspection is valid only for the period under which the imported fuel is processed or fabricated. Rest of the period the plant will not be under international safeguards.

[Neela]

Sanku,
- Has our indigenous programme lost GoI patronage ?

Yes, in terms of political patronage, the focus has quite clearly shifted. There are many indicators, including the fact that there the budgetary support for DAE has not really expanded keeping in mind the need for further funds if a indigenous program had to be pushed with any urgency.

- What does "sure there are still people trying to keep it alive" - how can a few people keep it alive. ?

I would say that there is a schism between the political message and the institutional actions. For example, to compare, the political helm repeatedly tries acts like, "sachar", "dilution of AFSPA" etc. Where as the Army repeatedly comes back with a different view.
In context of Nuclear --
We have seen a similar exercise during 123 (where differences between the political classes and the DAE were very visible for a long time)
We have seen a number of retired scientists (those who can speak freely) -- repeatedly asking for work on PHWR/AHWR etc, saying that the Indian nuclear expertise in primarily along those technologies, and that is because that particular path was consciously chosen.
Opting for 1000 W LWRs, in a large number, and that too with a pre-decided policy of assignment to a nation (and not a bid based process) -- was something which would divert manpower and money from domestic initiatives.
A number of such articles and views have been posted on this thread.
I would say those within the GoI still arguing for a domestic policy -- are those trying to keep Bhaba's dream alive.

Sanku,
I keep saying this repeatedly. We do not have the fulll financial picture of how much money has been pumped in. One thing is sure: the plug had not been pulled. And just like no political party has the b@lls to "take bold moves" on Kashmir, no party in its right mind will kill this - the entire nuclear community will fall on GoI like a ton of bricks.

Regarding the second point of "assignment of projects to a nation" - there is some merit there......but what if this is the price to pay to enter the club. What if we could afford it now as opposed to 20 years back? What if this eases import of machinery ( and believe you me - this lament is from someone who works 500 metres away from the core of Indian PHWR, inside a lab ) . What if this eases movement of sensitive equipment into Indian borders? What if lower level GoI staff can place orders to companies in US/Europe for specialized handling without the requirement of certificates. What if this accelerates installed capacity without having to put pressure on local institutions . What if this is to be seen a la Kaveri?
What? Your guesses VS my guesses. The duel has one ending ( as mentioned ) - who calls whom a troll first.

----
PS> Opting for 1000 W LWRs - seriously ?? after AmberG Sir's lecture on units? 0 marks - you fail! No/wrong units , no marks mate. That is the standard worldwide.
Edited later:
PPS> Just joking here with my PS. AmberG - just pulling legs.

[gakakkad]

^^ only fabricated fuel is safeguarded..not the ore...ore does not matter..even somalia has uranium ore..but no one worries about that...

uranium ore can even be bought from amazon

http://www.amazon.com/Images-SI-Inc-Ura ... 933&sr=8-4

[Sanku]

^^ only fabricated fuel is safeguarded..not the ore...ore does not matter..even somalia has uranium ore..but no one worries about that...

uranium ore can even be bought from amazon

http://www.amazon.com/Images-SI-Inc-Ura ... 933&sr=8-4

Please dont be flippant. Yellow cake is a controlled substance. As I pointed to you. Read the IAEA safeguard document if you so wish. The sale and trade of yellow cake is controlled by NSG and IAEA. In fact even the non-NSG countries did not sign agreements to sell with India before 123 even when technically there was nothing stopping them.

And please change your views as you are better informed, dont be like the others please. You are much better.

[gakakkad]

http://www-pub.iaea.org/mtcd/meetings/P ... e_IAEA.pdf

When any material containing uranium or thorium which has
not reached the stage of the nuclear fuel cycle described
in paragraph (c) is directly or indirectly exported to a nonnuclear-weapon State, the [State] shall inform the Agency
of its quantity, composition and destination, unless the
material is exported for specifically non-nuclear purposes;


When any material containing uranium or thorium which has
not reached the stage of the nuclear fuel cycle described
in paragraph (c) is imported, the [State] shall inform the
Agency of its quantity and composition, unless the
material is imported for specifically non-nuclear purposes

When any nuclear material of a composition and purity
suitable for fuel fabrication or for being isotopically
enriched leaves the plant or the process stage in which it
has been produced ... the nuclear material shall become
subject to the other safeguards procedures specified in the
Agreement;


as you can see ,only uranium fuel is safeguarded...not the ore..for ore one has to only inform iaea ..that too if it is officially intended for nukular purpose..

[Sanku]

I keep saying this repeatedly. We do not have the fulll financial picture of how much money has been pumped in.

Well we have discussed the budgetary allocations, that data is visible.

One thing is sure: the plug had not been pulled. And just like no political party has the b@lls to "take bold moves" on Kashmir, no party in its right mind will kill this - the entire nuclear community will fall on GoI like a ton of bricks.

No plug has not been pulled, merely being slowly smothered to death.

but what if this is the price to pay to enter the club. What if we could afford it now as opposed to 20 years back?

There was no reason to join the club at such usurious payment, that too for second grade membership. the way to join the club is to knock the door down.

We really are not getting anything from the deal if you see, the ENR and other sensitive tech is still locked up. We get yellowcake, but we are now told (and we well knew all through) that we have enough locally.

We get to buy their reactors and subsidize their Nuclear sector, that is all.

Man mohan has pulled a fast one.

PS> Am not calling you a troll and have no intention to I have always had a very civil debate with you and most others, barring one or two worthies.

[Sanku]

as you can see ,only uranium fuel is safeguarded...not the ore..for ore one has to only inform iaea ..that too if it is officially intended for nukular purpose..

Where does it say its not safeguarded? Did you read the bit about French yellow cake being worked on in safeguarded facilities?

Please read the India specific safeguard agreement.

[gakakkad]

"Since the DAE has signed a contract (order) with French nuclear supplier AREVA for getting 300 tonnes of the yellow cake (Uranium), we will also be working out on which part of the Hyderabad-based Nuclear Fuel Complex (NFC) will be placed under safeguards for processing and fabricating the fuel.

safeguards are only placed for processing and fabricating fuel...the safeguards are in place because the fuel is processed and as per the third paragraph of the iaea i have posted above they have to be safeguarded...

re-read the agreement ,...safeguards are only in place for eu ..not for uranium ore ,nor for mon enriched u.. Even in a college chemistry lab u might find some uranium ore..but thats not a problem ..an if the the uranium is not intended for nukular stuff ,you don't even need to inform iaea...read it clearly..

if we import uranium ore from somewhere , and enrich it in our military facilities ,than there will be no safeguards..only the designated civilian facilities will be safeguarded ..